From FF14 ESO SWTOR and GW2, all crap and not mmorpg's. It's an absolute and will not argue about this.
I'll fix later, I have to get off the computer.
There we go again...
And about getting off the computer... you'd have to do this for a long time I think. Very long. Like half a century. So we don't have to read your arrogant shit anymore.
I don't think saying games like mentioned are not mmorpgs is arrogant when their not mmorpgs.
For some reason your only on this site to follow me around...scat...scat I say !
Sorry, YOU don't get to decide that.
There's been tremendous cross pollination of genre elements in games over the years. Perfectly fine if you don't like some of those elements. Personally, I thought WoW was badly written and boring. Doesn't mean others didn't flock to it.
"Cross pollination"? That is a very gentile way of describing what has happened, in botany it is used to produce a multitude of plant species/variations. In gaming it has been used to push gameplay into what is best for the "gaming everyman". If gamers in solo rpgs like soloing, lets have that in every MMORPG effortlessly to top level, if players like climbing tall structures and surveying the land in AC lets have that in every adventure game we can. While there have been some carefully created ideas like the way crafting is foremost in the Minecraft MMO, mostly we get gameplay ideas shoehorned every which way from any genre if they are seen as "popular".
Why do you assume solo equates to effortless? Every MMORPG I've played is more difficult for me to play solo than along with others.
Can you even say current MMORPG are even difficult for you at all, whether grouped or solo? I cant even think of an MMO that had difficult solo PVE content in the last 18 years. Unless you count difficult as being repetitive. Then yeah plenty of repetitive MMO's. I am pretty sure 6yr old's can play MMO's solo now.
I do have to agree on this... any 6 year old can play.
Feel free to come and show me how easy the more challenging content I'm playing on ESO these days is. That being said, I expect EQ2 has content with varying difficulty as well, with some not so easily cleared as the norm for those that seek such.
You know, there are regularly similar posts on the WoW forums. Some guy is like "this game is so easy now, it was harder before".
Then you look the guy's armory, and see he never did anything past normal dungeons and raids.
Yeah, games are easy if you only do the easy content. That doesn't mean they are generally easy, and the same people would /ragequit if they were trying to tackle mythic content.
Don't pay to much attention to that kind of people. It's the same than those armchair sports men, they don't know the start of the beginning of what they are talking about. They sit their fat asses in their couch drinking beers watching a football match and thinking they would do better than the players on the field.
Well we are dividing this into the difference between soloing and "group activities", mind you you can solo in PvP. Brainy thinks even the dungeons in ESO have got easier, I was there from launch for about two years, that was not my impression, but old guildmates have confirmed for me that it certainly has not got harder, mythic may be the exception I don't know. But that's the problem, any real difficulty is now the exception, not the rule.
Also ESO has gone down the route every other old MMO has so the idea that overall it has somehow managed to avoid getting easier since I left would be hard to believe. I should point out that I am not saying ESO needs to become the Dark Souls of MMOs or anything, just that easymode has gone too far. I welcomed the initial changes to make soloing easier which occurred over the first few months after launch. After that though I thought any further change was unnecessary, soloing seemed to have the right "bite" for me.
ESO does get easier over time for most content, from a personal perspective, as it should. This is how character progression manifests in the game.
The game scales to the character so progress can't be shown by the ability to tackle increasingly potent foes. It is represented by one's increasing ability to dispatch foes that remain at a relatively static comparative power.
Over time you slay foes at a faster rate, you are able to take on more foes concurrently, and so forth. You become greater than you were, and the world around you effectively lesser as a result.
This is similar in effect, though not to the same extremity, of a character from a more traditional game finding lower level content increasingly trivial over time. He becomes more than he once was in comparison to that content over time.
Beyond that, players earn character points over time one maximum level is reached that serve as further progression, making the character even more in comparison to the world around him.
Difficulty is increased by boosting the content in power compared to the character, with that boost more extreme the greater the difficulty is intended to be. That is where the challenge of the game resides and where players seeking that go. This is also where ESO becomes more similar in nature to other MMORPGs.
Essentially, difficulty is the exception until the player chooses to make it the rule.
ESO does get easier over time for most content, from a personal perspective, as it should. This is how character progression manifests in the game.
The game scales to the character so progress can't be shown by the ability to tackle increasingly potent foes. It is represented by one's increasing ability to dispatch foes that remain at a relatively static comparative power.
Over time you slay foes at a faster rate, you are able to take on more foes concurrently, and so forth. You become greater than you were, and the world around you effectively lesser as a result.
This is similar in effect, though not to the same extremity, of a character from a more traditional game finding lower level content increasingly trivial over time. He becomes more than he once was in comparison to that content over time.
Beyond that, players earn character points over time one maximum level is reached that serve as further progression, making the character even more in comparison to the world around him.
Difficulty is increased by boosting the content in power compared to the character, with that boost more extreme the greater the difficulty is intended to be. That is where the challenge of the game resides and where players seeking that go. This is also where ESO becomes more similar in nature to other MMORPGs.
Essentially, difficulty is the exception until the player chooses to make it the rule.
I posted this twelve days ago I feel like I just got woken up from having a nap.
Bit puzzled here, my assumption was that scaling was going to more or less the same difficulty wise from Level 1 to top level. But you seem to be saying it gets easier as you go up in level? Well that's what happens with the traditional method so it does not seem such a radical change, it makes me think this was more about allowing players to go anywhere they liked? You talk about difficulty being boosted by content, I assume group content, as what else is there that a solo player can do that is more difficult than the norm?
ESO does get easier over time for most content, from a personal perspective, as it should. This is how character progression manifests in the game.
The game scales to the character so progress can't be shown by the ability to tackle increasingly potent foes. It is represented by one's increasing ability to dispatch foes that remain at a relatively static comparative power.
Over time you slay foes at a faster rate, you are able to take on more foes concurrently, and so forth. You become greater than you were, and the world around you effectively lesser as a result.
This is similar in effect, though not to the same extremity, of a character from a more traditional game finding lower level content increasingly trivial over time. He becomes more than he once was in comparison to that content over time.
Beyond that, players earn character points over time one maximum level is reached that serve as further progression, making the character even more in comparison to the world around him.
Difficulty is increased by boosting the content in power compared to the character, with that boost more extreme the greater the difficulty is intended to be. That is where the challenge of the game resides and where players seeking that go. This is also where ESO becomes more similar in nature to other MMORPGs.
Essentially, difficulty is the exception until the player chooses to make it the rule.
I posted this twelve days ago I feel like I just got woken up from having a nap.
Bit puzzled here, my assumption was that scaling was going to more or less the same difficulty wise from Level 1 to top level. But you seem to be saying it gets easier as you go up in level? Well that's what happens with the traditional method so it does not seem such a radical change, it makes me think this was more about allowing players to go anywhere they liked? You talk about difficulty being boosted by content, I assume group content, as what else is there that a solo player can do that is more difficult than the norm?
It does get easier, but it does so in a different manner the MMORPGs have traditionally. This variance leads to substantial differences between the two.
The ability to level wherever you like is a radical change. Besides that flexibility in itself it facilitates grouping by making it easier to find other players to begin with and easier to stay grouped with them once you do. It allows friends of disparate level to play together enhancing their social experience. It changes many things and while some of these have less impact than others but in accumulates to a fair bit.
Difficult content specifically for solo play are the Maelstrom Arena and Vateshran Hollows Arena. There are other things one can attempt not specifically for solo players. One can try to solo open world bosses and private dungeons. There are areas of elevated difficulty in Craglorn to tackle, undaunted pledges one can try. Enough to keep fairly busy I think.
Also, there is pvp to do for those inclined. I know very little about it, but I believe the Imperial City is a more closed in environment and has smaller engagements so it may be easier to solo there, especially if the character has stealth abilities. There are also some PvE quests in there for those that fancy the extra risk the hostile surrounding environment brings.
The most distinctive element of ESO the reduces difficulty with time is the Champion Point system. Once a character reaches level 50 character progression is through earning points to spend on abilities that empower the character in ways previously unavailable. As more are spent the accumulated benefit shifts relative power in favour of the character, making content effectively less difficult over time.
While subsequent characters also can't earn and spend CP until level 50, the CP already earned can be applied to those characters immediately upon creation. Essentially, only your first character must play at the baseline difficulty with each after having an increased advantage due to the greater pool of CP available to tap into. Player can opt out of this by simply not spending those CP on leveling characters but I expect few elect to do so.
Not trying to make this into a "difficulty thread" (too LATE!), but what always hit me (not literally) about EQ1 was when my first Orc Shaman hit me with my first "blindness/fear" spell. Do MMORPGs do anything like this anymore? Do opponents cause a player to lose control of their players anymore, other than PvP? Crowd Control was not a player exclusive ability
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Not trying to make this into a "difficulty thread" (too LATE!), but what always hit me (not literally) about EQ1 was when my first Orc Shaman hit me with my first "blindness/fear" spell. Do MMORPGs do anything like this anymore? Do opponents cause a player to lose control of their players anymore, other than PvP? Crowd Control was not a player exclusive ability
ESO does. I've been stunned, rooted, feared, and had my movement speed greatly reduced only to be attacked by AoEs immediately after. This occurs more often as one's character advances. It's not infrequent for my highest level characters to concurrently be assailed by such from multiple foes.
These disabling attacks can often be countered with blocking, dodging or interrupts, with the success of these options varying depending on what exactly is being responded to. Failing that one can break free of them. All of these efforts require resources though, so if you get hammered enough to run dry issues will ensue.
ESO does get easier over time for most content, from a personal perspective, as it should. This is how character progression manifests in the game.
The game scales to the character so progress can't be shown by the ability to tackle increasingly potent foes. It is represented by one's increasing ability to dispatch foes that remain at a relatively static comparative power.
Over time you slay foes at a faster rate, you are able to take on more foes concurrently, and so forth. You become greater than you were, and the world around you effectively lesser as a result.
This is similar in effect, though not to the same extremity, of a character from a more traditional game finding lower level content increasingly trivial over time. He becomes more than he once was in comparison to that content over time.
Beyond that, players earn character points over time one maximum level is reached that serve as further progression, making the character even more in comparison to the world around him.
Difficulty is increased by boosting the content in power compared to the character, with that boost more extreme the greater the difficulty is intended to be. That is where the challenge of the game resides and where players seeking that go. This is also where ESO becomes more similar in nature to other MMORPGs.
Essentially, difficulty is the exception until the player chooses to make it the rule.
I posted this twelve days ago I feel like I just got woken up from having a nap.
Bit puzzled here, my assumption was that scaling was going to more or less the same difficulty wise from Level 1 to top level. But you seem to be saying it gets easier as you go up in level? Well that's what happens with the traditional method so it does not seem such a radical change, it makes me think this was more about allowing players to go anywhere they liked? You talk about difficulty being boosted by content, I assume group content, as what else is there that a solo player can do that is more difficult than the norm?
It does get easier, but it does so in a different manner the MMORPGs have traditionally. This variance leads to substantial differences between the two.
The ability to level wherever you like is a radical change. Besides that flexibility in itself it facilitates grouping by making it easier to find other players to begin with and easier to stay grouped with them once you do. It allows friends of disparate level to play together enhancing their social experience. It changes many things and while some of these have less impact than others but in accumulates to a fair bit.
Difficult content specifically for solo play are the Maelstrom Arena and Vateshran Hollows Arena. There are other things one can attempt not specifically for solo players. One can try to solo open world bosses and private dungeons. There are areas of elevated difficulty in Craglorn to tackle, undaunted pledges one can try. Enough to keep fairly busy I think.
Also, there is pvp to do for those inclined. I know very little about it, but I believe the Imperial City is a more closed in environment and has smaller engagements so it may be easier to solo there, especially if the character has stealth abilities. There are also some PvE quests in there for those that fancy the extra risk the hostile surrounding environment brings.
The most distinctive element of ESO the reduces difficulty with time is the Champion Point system. Once a character reaches level 50 character progression is through earning points to spend on abilities that empower the character in ways previously unavailable. As more are spent the accumulated benefit shifts relative power in favour of the character, making content effectively less difficult over time.
While subsequent characters also can't earn and spend CP until level 50, the CP already earned can be applied to those characters immediately upon creation. Essentially, only your first character must play at the baseline difficulty with each after having an increased advantage due to the greater pool of CP available to tap into. Player can opt out of this by simply not spending those CP on leveling characters but I expect few elect to do so.
I had heard about how it makes grouping easier, but had not thought through the full implications, that has put me officially on the scaling is better side. Presumably though the issue of grouping being rather too easy in a game made for soloing still stands, but that's still a huge leap in the right direction.
I was also wondering, does scaling cause problems for people trying to power level? If all the mobs (relativity speaking) give the same xp it must be harder to cheese levels? That might be part of the objection to it, which takes me back to another thread and players trying to skip content, they would be up in arms!
ESO does get easier over time for most content, from a personal perspective, as it should. This is how character progression manifests in the game.
The game scales to the character so progress can't be shown by the ability to tackle increasingly potent foes. It is represented by one's increasing ability to dispatch foes that remain at a relatively static comparative power.
Over time you slay foes at a faster rate, you are able to take on more foes concurrently, and so forth. You become greater than you were, and the world around you effectively lesser as a result.
This is similar in effect, though not to the same extremity, of a character from a more traditional game finding lower level content increasingly trivial over time. He becomes more than he once was in comparison to that content over time.
Beyond that, players earn character points over time one maximum level is reached that serve as further progression, making the character even more in comparison to the world around him.
Difficulty is increased by boosting the content in power compared to the character, with that boost more extreme the greater the difficulty is intended to be. That is where the challenge of the game resides and where players seeking that go. This is also where ESO becomes more similar in nature to other MMORPGs.
Essentially, difficulty is the exception until the player chooses to make it the rule.
I posted this twelve days ago I feel like I just got woken up from having a nap.
Bit puzzled here, my assumption was that scaling was going to more or less the same difficulty wise from Level 1 to top level. But you seem to be saying it gets easier as you go up in level? Well that's what happens with the traditional method so it does not seem such a radical change, it makes me think this was more about allowing players to go anywhere they liked? You talk about difficulty being boosted by content, I assume group content, as what else is there that a solo player can do that is more difficult than the norm?
It does get easier, but it does so in a different manner the MMORPGs have traditionally. This variance leads to substantial differences between the two.
The ability to level wherever you like is a radical change. Besides that flexibility in itself it facilitates grouping by making it easier to find other players to begin with and easier to stay grouped with them once you do. It allows friends of disparate level to play together enhancing their social experience. It changes many things and while some of these have less impact than others but in accumulates to a fair bit.
Difficult content specifically for solo play are the Maelstrom Arena and Vateshran Hollows Arena. There are other things one can attempt not specifically for solo players. One can try to solo open world bosses and private dungeons. There are areas of elevated difficulty in Craglorn to tackle, undaunted pledges one can try. Enough to keep fairly busy I think.
Also, there is pvp to do for those inclined. I know very little about it, but I believe the Imperial City is a more closed in environment and has smaller engagements so it may be easier to solo there, especially if the character has stealth abilities. There are also some PvE quests in there for those that fancy the extra risk the hostile surrounding environment brings.
The most distinctive element of ESO the reduces difficulty with time is the Champion Point system. Once a character reaches level 50 character progression is through earning points to spend on abilities that empower the character in ways previously unavailable. As more are spent the accumulated benefit shifts relative power in favour of the character, making content effectively less difficult over time.
While subsequent characters also can't earn and spend CP until level 50, the CP already earned can be applied to those characters immediately upon creation. Essentially, only your first character must play at the baseline difficulty with each after having an increased advantage due to the greater pool of CP available to tap into. Player can opt out of this by simply not spending those CP on leveling characters but I expect few elect to do so.
I had heard about how it makes grouping easier, but had not thought through the full implications, that has put me officially on the scaling is better side. Presumably though the issue of grouping being rather too easy in a game made for soloing still stands, but that's still a huge leap in the right direction.
I was also wondering, does scaling cause problems for people trying to power level? If all the mobs (relativity speaking) give the same xp it must be harder to cheese levels? That might be part of the objection to it, which takes me back to another thread and players trying to skip content, they would be up in arms!
Grouping will definitely make things easier than not, so if they play that which can soloed easily it will be more so to where it could become trivial. If the intent was largely to socialize this may not be unwelcome.
Those grouped could instead try content a bit more challenging. Delves are more so than the overland and dungeons than delves. Craglorn has open area content more difficult than the norm, so grouping
there would likely make the encounters more manageable rather than
trivial.
Some content that can ultimately be soloed is better done in groups when the characters haven't built up to that point yet, like world bosses.
I don't know how it affects power leveling as I've never been involved with that in any game I've played. I expect it's possible in some way, even if it is just chugging down XP potions while another carries you. Higher level characters will have more AoE and better resource management to work with so it would be much more efficient than if the character was to level normally. However, power leveling is not unique to ESO, so I don't see it as problem related specifically to their progression system.
At the very least you can't outright buy levels in ESO in the game store or bundled with expansions, so there is that.
I notice you also think MMOs have become more difficult over the years from your other post. I am sure you can find difficulty in many games, but the overall direction of gaming not just MMOs is ever easier. Every new iteration of a franchise, every "quality of life" update makes the game easier. ESO is a case in point, I played it from launch and heard from those who played pre-launch that soloing was now easier. About two months after this soloing became easier after a patch, this happened again about a year (?) later. From those I know in the game it has only got easier since then, slowly but surely. I don't think you even have to do the original starter area now, some people found that "difficult" so it got binned. I assumed that it was seen as an an inconvenience, rather than difficult, gods of MMOland forbid you have an "inconvenience" in a MMO. We always found the raids and PvP challenging mind you, but solo in every MMO is as the former CEO of EA would say "something your mum could play".
I missed this before somehow. Better late than never.
I don't know what I said that suggests I feel that MMORPGs have gotten more difficult over the years. Perhaps you could tell me what gave you that impression if you still recall what it was.
Perhaps you are thinking of a time when I've said that many older games have made changes over time that make them easier than they once were.
Regardless, even with those adjustments older games remain more difficult than those of today. Challenge that was once a matter of course must now be deliberately sought out. Grouping back then was of much greater import than today.
You can still get difficulty in games such as ESO, but you have to work harder for it. You must seek it out as it will not seek out you.
You can still do the original starting quest and areas but the game currently defaults to the starting quest and area for the latest expansion the player has access to. To bypass that one must opt out of the tutorial when creating their character and then upon entering the world wayshrine to one of three places depending on one's faction where an npc will be encountered that will bestow the needed quest. It is admittedly quite the bother and I imagine unknown to many new players.
I don't know why they chose to change the starting quest as they do with each chapter, but it certainly wasn't due to excess difficulty. Though the original sets the scene rather nicely and can seem momentous at times due to presentation, it was never difficult.
Anyway, this is changing with the next expansion shortly being released, that will allow players to start with whichever of the starting quests available they prefer. Ideally, the choices will include Cold Harbour so the game can be started as it originally was without having to know of and do the process required now.
Comments
ESO does get easier over time for most content, from a personal perspective, as it should. This is how character progression manifests in the game.
The game scales to the character so progress can't be shown by the ability to tackle increasingly potent foes. It is represented by one's increasing ability to dispatch foes that remain at a relatively static comparative power.
Over time you slay foes at a faster rate, you are able to take on more foes concurrently, and so forth. You become greater than you were, and the world around you effectively lesser as a result.
This is similar in effect, though not to the same extremity, of a character from a more traditional game finding lower level content increasingly trivial over time. He becomes more than he once was in comparison to that content over time.
Beyond that, players earn character points over time one maximum level is reached that serve as further progression, making the character even more in comparison to the world around him.
Difficulty is increased by boosting the content in power compared to the character, with that boost more extreme the greater the difficulty is intended to be. That is where the challenge of the game resides and where players seeking that go. This is also where ESO becomes more similar in nature to other MMORPGs.
Essentially, difficulty is the exception until the player chooses to make it the rule.
Bit puzzled here, my assumption was that scaling was going to more or less the same difficulty wise from Level 1 to top level. But you seem to be saying it gets easier as you go up in level? Well that's what happens with the traditional method so it does not seem such a radical change, it makes me think this was more about allowing players to go anywhere they liked? You talk about difficulty being boosted by content, I assume group content, as what else is there that a solo player can do that is more difficult than the norm?
It does get easier, but it does so in a different manner the MMORPGs have traditionally. This variance leads to substantial differences between the two.
The ability to level wherever you like is a radical change. Besides that flexibility in itself it facilitates grouping by making it easier to find other players to begin with and easier to stay grouped with them once you do. It allows friends of disparate level to play together enhancing their social experience. It changes many things and while some of these have less impact than others but in accumulates to a fair bit.
Difficult content specifically for solo play are the Maelstrom Arena and Vateshran Hollows Arena. There are other things one can attempt not specifically for solo players. One can try to solo open world bosses and private dungeons. There are areas of elevated difficulty in Craglorn to tackle, undaunted pledges one can try. Enough to keep fairly busy I think.
The most distinctive element of ESO the reduces difficulty with time is the Champion Point system. Once a character reaches level 50 character progression is through earning points to spend on abilities that empower the character in ways previously unavailable. As more are spent the accumulated benefit shifts relative power in favour of the character, making content effectively less difficult over time.
While subsequent characters also can't earn and spend CP until level 50, the CP already earned can be applied to those characters immediately upon creation. Essentially, only your first character must play at the baseline difficulty with each after having an increased advantage due to the greater pool of CP available to tap into. Player can opt out of this by simply not spending those CP on leveling characters but I expect few elect to do so.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
ESO does. I've been stunned, rooted, feared, and had my movement speed greatly reduced only to be attacked by AoEs immediately after. This occurs more often as one's character advances. It's not infrequent for my highest level characters to concurrently be assailed by such from multiple foes.
These disabling attacks can often be countered with blocking, dodging or interrupts, with the success of these options varying depending on what exactly is being responded to. Failing that one can break free of them. All of these efforts require resources though, so if you get hammered enough to run dry issues will ensue.
I was also wondering, does scaling cause problems for people trying to power level? If all the mobs (relativity speaking) give the same xp it must be harder to cheese levels? That might be part of the objection to it, which takes me back to another thread and players trying to skip content, they would be up in arms!
Grouping will definitely make things easier than not, so if they play that which can soloed easily it will be more so to where it could become trivial. If the intent was largely to socialize this may not be unwelcome.
Those grouped could instead try content a bit more challenging. Delves are more so than the overland and dungeons than delves. Craglorn has open area content more difficult than the norm, so grouping there would likely make the encounters more manageable rather than trivial.
Some content that can ultimately be soloed is better done in groups when the characters haven't built up to that point yet, like world bosses.
I don't know how it affects power leveling as I've never been involved with that in any game I've played. I expect it's possible in some way, even if it is just chugging down XP potions while another carries you. Higher level characters will have more AoE and better resource management to work with so it would be much more efficient than if the character was to level normally. However, power leveling is not unique to ESO, so I don't see it as problem related specifically to their progression system.
At the very least you can't outright buy levels in ESO in the game store or bundled with expansions, so there is that.
I missed this before somehow. Better late than never.
I don't know what I said that suggests I feel that MMORPGs have gotten more difficult over the years. Perhaps you could tell me what gave you that impression if you still recall what it was.
Perhaps you are thinking of a time when I've said that many older games have made changes over time that make them easier than they once were.
Regardless, even with those adjustments older games remain more difficult than those of today. Challenge that was once a matter of course must now be deliberately sought out. Grouping back then was of much greater import than today.
You can still get difficulty in games such as ESO, but you have to work harder for it. You must seek it out as it will not seek out you.
You can still do the original starting quest and areas but the game currently defaults to the starting quest and area for the latest expansion the player has access to. To bypass that one must opt out of the tutorial when creating their character and then upon entering the world wayshrine to one of three places depending on one's faction where an npc will be encountered that will bestow the needed quest. It is admittedly quite the bother and I imagine unknown to many new players.
I don't know why they chose to change the starting quest as they do with each chapter, but it certainly wasn't due to excess difficulty. Though the original sets the scene rather nicely and can seem momentous at times due to presentation, it was never difficult.
Anyway, this is changing with the next expansion shortly being released, that will allow players to start with whichever of the starting quests available they prefer. Ideally, the choices will include Cold Harbour so the game can be started as it originally was without having to know of and do the process required now.