Has anyone brought up the fact that the pledges already contain cosmetic items and vanity pets? I find it odd there is so much drama over cosmetic items yet not so much as part of the pledges.
Cosmetics dont have to have anything to do with a cash shop.
And what do you think the cash shop will sell? The title of the thread is literally "Pantheon and a Cosmetic Cash Shop." The whole controversy started because Ben Dean mentioned the remote possibly of a cosmetic only cash shop.
He really doesn't know, let's not tell him about the code reset a year or so back which inherently invalidated all video progress before then, since they were just a shell game to keep funding rolling in.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Has anyone brought up the fact that the pledges already contain cosmetic items and vanity pets? I find it odd there is so much drama over cosmetic items yet not so much as part of the pledges.
Cosmetics dont have to have anything to do with a cash shop.
And what do you think the cash shop will sell? The title of the thread is literally "Pantheon and a Cosmetic Cash Shop." The whole controversy started because Ben Dean mentioned the remote possibly of a cosmetic only cash shop.
You were talking about pledge rewards as if that was some kind of point.
Do you realize that originally those pledge rewards were going to have minor bonuses? ... they werent going to be cosmetic until later when they were reevaluated.
Within the last year joppa has said they still dont have most of those pledge items developed.
For those who seem to think the "no cash shop" statements were old, before the recent forum change the FAQ said there wouldnt be a cash shop.
Blast from the past. Matt Firor talking about why ESO would be sub only back in 2013. We all know what happened in 2015:
"Charging a flat monthly (or subscription) fee means that we will offer players the game we set out to make, and the one that fans want to play. Going with any other model meant that we would have to make sacrifices and changes we weren't willing to make."
"It's important to state that our decision to go with subscriptions is not a referendum on online game revenue models. F2P, B2P, etc. are valid, proven business models - but subscription is the one that fits ESO the best, given our commitment to freedom of gameplay, quality and long-term content delivery.
"Plus, players will appreciate not having to worry about being 'monetized' in the middle of playing the game, which is definitely a problem that is cropping up more and more in online gaming these days. The fact that the word 'monetized' exists points to the heart of the issue for us: We don't want the player to worry about which parts of the game to pay for - with our system, they get it all."
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Has anyone brought up the fact that the pledges already contain cosmetic items and vanity pets? I find it odd there is so much drama over cosmetic items yet not so much as part of the pledges.
Cosmetics dont have to have anything to do with a cash shop.
And what do you think the cash shop will sell? The title of the thread is literally "Pantheon and a Cosmetic Cash Shop." The whole controversy started because Ben Dean mentioned the remote possibly of a cosmetic only cash shop.
You were talking about pledge rewards as if that was some kind of point.
Do you realize that originally those pledge rewards were going to have minor bonuses? ... they werent going to be cosmetic until later when they were reevaluated.
Within the last year joppa has said they still dont have most of those pledge items developed.
For those who seem to think the "no cash shop" statements were old, before the recent forum change the FAQ said there wouldnt be a cash shop.
There is drama over the a cash shop selling cosmetic items. The pledges have cosmetic items as well but no one cares. That's it. Why is one bad but the other is ok?
He really doesn't know, let's not tell him about the code reset a year or so back which inherently invalidated all video progress before then, since they were just a shell game to keep funding rolling in.
I know nothing about this.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Has anyone brought up the fact that the pledges already contain cosmetic items and vanity pets? I find it odd there is so much drama over cosmetic items yet not so much as part of the pledges.
Cosmetics dont have to have anything to do with a cash shop.
And what do you think the cash shop will sell? The title of the thread is literally "Pantheon and a Cosmetic Cash Shop." The whole controversy started because Ben Dean mentioned the remote possibly of a cosmetic only cash shop.
You were talking about pledge rewards as if that was some kind of point.
Do you realize that originally those pledge rewards were going to have minor bonuses? ... they werent going to be cosmetic until later when they were reevaluated.
Within the last year joppa has said they still dont have most of those pledge items developed.
For those who seem to think the "no cash shop" statements were old, before the recent forum change the FAQ said there wouldnt be a cash shop.
There is drama over the a cash shop selling cosmetic items. The pledges have cosmetic items as well but no one cares. That's it. Why is one bad but the other is ok?
Because.
You are dealing with a demographic that still looks back fondly with rose colored glasses on an era of their youth when paying a Sub and playing a game seemed like the perfect innocent gamer childhood dream, like sitting on the sidewalk on a hot summer day enjoying Ice Cream.
The ideal dream of a Sub is everyone is 100% equal, we all have the same position in the game hierarchy. I mean obviously those with more time and skill were going to be better, have more, and all that, but, as far as the game itself went, everyone was on the same footing of paying their monthly sub, no more, no less.
This meant that the Starving Artist, the Power Executive, the Retired, the Burger Flipper, all of them were on the same footing when they went to play the Sub.
All Perfectly Equal, as things should be.
That all changed when Cash Shops came in. Cash Shops allowed for people to spend as little or much as they wanted to play the game, now that does not sound bad in and of it's own right, as it allows that starving artist to not need to worry about the sub and only spend what they can afford, which might be a whole lot of nothing. The retired on a fixed income can remain largely the same, the Burger Flipper can spend as they get their pay check, some good weeks and they can spend more, so light weeks and they spend less, and the power executive can spend buckets which in the end remove any sense of guilt by the starving artist or burger flipper if they don't spend any money this month, the Executive spends more than enough to carry them. That sounds great at first.
But, they became very quickly this evil-bad thing, in that Cash Shop was sold Pay2Win, Lootboxes, and a slew of other predatory mechanics, and they did the unthinkable in a game platform that originally seemed designed for escapism from the harsh inequity of realty, they divided the player base based on how much real-money they spent on the game, splitting them into the Haves and Have-Nots.
This is their real problem.
So lets clear something up, It's not some stupid fancy butterfly wings or whatever that might be in the cash shop for 5 dollars this month that really gets under their skin and bugs them, as we can see from this topic alone, the simple fact that the shop will exist at all is what is triggering their outrage, that makes them feel betrayed.
So it's not what is in the Shop that gets them, as right now, there is nothing in it, there is no game. Just the idea of a game with a cash shop, so, with that said, what incites them is the very ugly history of what happened with Cash Shops, and for some, maybe directly to them personally, with the introduction predatory mechanics, like P2W, lootboxes, and other very divisionary tactics taken by some unscrupulous MMO/game developers.
With that said, I have long since accepted that Cash Shops will be a part of any MMO I play, with my only point of contention about them being how predatory are they. It is what it is.
But my acceptance does not mean that others are not in fact justified in their worry that this time will be as bad as the last time they were taken advantage of, and I can respect that is a very real concern for some.
Just putting this out there to explain it all to you, so you can better grasp where some of them are coming from.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
My thoughts are this....If its like offering seasonal stuff BUT has at least offered it once in-game, then sure, sell it in a shop. FFXIV USED to do it this way when it first started out, but progressively got hungrier and hungrier. One thing I never want to see is added inventory or anything that influences gameplay in ANY WAY and YES INVENTORY INFLUENCES GAMEPLAY. Once you do that, I'm out. Not even the all 'greedy' Blizzard has stooped to selling space like FFXIV has.
Has anyone brought up the fact that the pledges already contain cosmetic items and vanity pets? I find it odd there is so much drama over cosmetic items yet not so much as part of the pledges.
Cosmetics dont have to have anything to do with a cash shop.
And what do you think the cash shop will sell? The title of the thread is literally "Pantheon and a Cosmetic Cash Shop." The whole controversy started because Ben Dean mentioned the remote possibly of a cosmetic only cash shop.
You were talking about pledge rewards as if that was some kind of point.
Do you realize that originally those pledge rewards were going to have minor bonuses? ... they werent going to be cosmetic until later when they were reevaluated.
Within the last year joppa has said they still dont have most of those pledge items developed.
For those who seem to think the "no cash shop" statements were old, before the recent forum change the FAQ said there wouldnt be a cash shop.
There is drama over the a cash shop selling cosmetic items. The pledges have cosmetic items as well but no one cares. That's it. Why is one bad but the other is ok?
Quite simple, cosmetics are not a bad thing to those complaining, but cash shops are, regardless what is being offered in them.
Cosmetics offered in the pledge packages are not the issue, only the possibility of a cash shop is.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Has anyone brought up the fact that the pledges already contain cosmetic items and vanity pets? I find it odd there is so much drama over cosmetic items yet not so much as part of the pledges.
Cosmetics dont have to have anything to do with a cash shop.
And what do you think the cash shop will sell? The title of the thread is literally "Pantheon and a Cosmetic Cash Shop." The whole controversy started because Ben Dean mentioned the remote possibly of a cosmetic only cash shop.
You were talking about pledge rewards as if that was some kind of point.
Do you realize that originally those pledge rewards were going to have minor bonuses? ... they werent going to be cosmetic until later when they were reevaluated.
Within the last year joppa has said they still dont have most of those pledge items developed.
For those who seem to think the "no cash shop" statements were old, before the recent forum change the FAQ said there wouldnt be a cash shop.
There is drama over the a cash shop selling cosmetic items. The pledges have cosmetic items as well but no one cares. That's it. Why is one bad but the other is ok?
Because.
You are dealing with a demographic that still looks back fondly with rose colored glasses on an era of their youth when paying a Sub and playing a game seemed like the perfect innocent gamer childhood dream, like sitting on the sidewalk on a hot summer day enjoying Ice Cream.
The ideal dream of a Sub is everyone is 100% equal, we all have the same position in the game hierarchy. I mean obviously those with more time and skill were going to be better, have more, and all that, but, as far as the game itself went, everyone was on the same footing of paying their monthly sub, no more, no less.
This meant that the Starving Artist, the Power Executive, the Retired, the Burger Flipper, all of them were on the same footing when they went to play the Sub.
All Perfectly Equal, as things should be.
That all changed when Cash Shops came in. Cash Shops allowed for people to spend as little or much as they wanted to play the game, now that does not sound bad in and of it's own right, as it allows that starving artist to not need to worry about the sub and only spend what they can afford, which might be a whole lot of nothing. The retired on a fixed income can remain largely the same, the Burger Flipper can spend as they get their pay check, some good weeks and they can spend more, so light weeks and they spend less, and the power executive can spend buckets which in the end remove any sense of guilt by the starving artist or burger flipper if they don't spend any money this month, the Executive spends more than enough to carry them. That sounds great at first.
But, they became very quickly this evil-bad thing, in that Cash Shop was sold Pay2Win, Lootboxes, and a slew of other predatory mechanics, and they did the unthinkable in a game platform that originally seemed designed for escapism from the harsh inequity of realty, they divided the player base based on how much real-money they spent on the game, splitting them into the Haves and Have-Nots.
This is their real problem.
So lets clear something up, It's not some stupid fancy butterfly wings or whatever that might be in the cash shop for 5 dollars this month that really gets under their skin and bugs them, as we can see from this topic alone, the simple fact that the shop will exist at all is what is triggering their outrage, that makes them feel betrayed.
So it's not what is in the Shop that gets them, as right now, there is nothing in it, there is no game. Just the idea of a game with a cash shop, so, with that said, what incites them is the very ugly history of what happened with Cash Shops, and for some, maybe directly to them personally, with the introduction predatory mechanics, like P2W, lootboxes, and other very divisionary tactics taken by some unscrupulous MMO/game developers.
With that said, I have long since accepted that Cash Shops will be a part of any MMO I play, with my only point of contention about them being how predatory are they. It is what it is.
But my acceptance does not mean that others are not in fact justified in their worry that this time will be as bad as the last time they were taken advantage of, and I can respect that is a very real concern for some.
Just putting this out there to explain it all to you, so you can better grasp where some of them are coming from.
Back in the old days was the ultimate P2W. Buy the game, buy the expansions and buy a sub ON TOP of all that just so you could enter the game. No money for a sub? Nothing for you starving artist, burger flipper or executive. 15 bucks only to be able to enter your games and nothing else, at least now you get butterfly wings with that.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Even the earliest project estimation techniques, like COCOMO and Function Point Analysis, *might* have been more efficient in projecting schedules. Granted, COCOMO and FPA (and almost every other estimation techniques) relied on the expertise of the person performing the analysis.
Not familiar with any of these but I am going to look them up, thanks!
The principle has always been 'determine the amount of work required, then schedule'. I really don't see most of the crowdfunded developments having a solid grasp on the amount of effort required.
That sounds very waterfall to me and the consensus is that waterfall does not work in s/w development. The amount of work (due to the many unknowns during implementation) and the requirements change fast. Agile was "invented" exactly to fight that.
Yes, very waterfall. That doesn't mean it didn't work. It was just hard/difficult. The workload estimation techniques worked quite well in isolation. The real problem/issue with the various waterfall schemes was the analysis portions. It was more often a failure based on completeness and misunderstanding than of any other factors. Plus, businesses have never really been keen on patience. It's difficult to measure progress if your product isn't code. Waterfall was quite successful where the problem set was easily understood,.
There weren't frameworks or patterns (by those names, anyway) and fewer business teams in the 60s/70s/ and even 80s simply did not want to conform to a 'standard business model'. That's pretty much a dead mindset. I had the pleasure/displeasure/challenge of working with some (3) unique public library systems, one horrendous purchasing/accounting system that Touche Ross said was interesting, but didn't lend itself very well to automation (and auditing), just about every government system I encountered and a very manually intensive insurance reserving system.
Agile is the current FOTM in development methodology. The first principle of Agile is 'early and continuous delivery of valuable software'. I don't see that working well in regards to the development of MMORPGs. I think there's still a bit too much of the old school 'the customer does not know what they want, they will take what we make' mentality lingering, especially in management. That tends to kill any attempt at project evaluation and management, regardless of methodology.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
I wouldn't even give the game a look if it releases with a cosmetic cash shop. They explicitly stated, early in development, that gear in the world should be identifiable.
Has anyone brought up the fact that the pledges already contain cosmetic items and vanity pets? I find it odd there is so much drama over cosmetic items yet not so much as part of the pledges.
Cosmetics dont have to have anything to do with a cash shop.
And what do you think the cash shop will sell? The title of the thread is literally "Pantheon and a Cosmetic Cash Shop." The whole controversy started because Ben Dean mentioned the remote possibly of a cosmetic only cash shop.
You were talking about pledge rewards as if that was some kind of point.
Do you realize that originally those pledge rewards were going to have minor bonuses? ... they werent going to be cosmetic until later when they were reevaluated.
Within the last year joppa has said they still dont have most of those pledge items developed.
For those who seem to think the "no cash shop" statements were old, before the recent forum change the FAQ said there wouldnt be a cash shop.
There is drama over the a cash shop selling cosmetic items. The pledges have cosmetic items as well but no one cares. That's it. Why is one bad but the other is ok?
Because.
You are dealing with a demographic that still looks back fondly with rose colored glasses on an era of their youth when paying a Sub and playing a game seemed like the perfect innocent gamer childhood dream, like sitting on the sidewalk on a hot summer day enjoying Ice Cream.
The ideal dream of a Sub is everyone is 100% equal, we all have the same position in the game hierarchy. I mean obviously those with more time and skill were going to be better, have more, and all that, but, as far as the game itself went, everyone was on the same footing of paying their monthly sub, no more, no less.
This meant that the Starving Artist, the Power Executive, the Retired, the Burger Flipper, all of them were on the same footing when they went to play the Sub.
All Perfectly Equal, as things should be.
That all changed when Cash Shops came in. Cash Shops allowed for people to spend as little or much as they wanted to play the game, now that does not sound bad in and of it's own right, as it allows that starving artist to not need to worry about the sub and only spend what they can afford, which might be a whole lot of nothing. The retired on a fixed income can remain largely the same, the Burger Flipper can spend as they get their pay check, some good weeks and they can spend more, so light weeks and they spend less, and the power executive can spend buckets which in the end remove any sense of guilt by the starving artist or burger flipper if they don't spend any money this month, the Executive spends more than enough to carry them. That sounds great at first.
But, they became very quickly this evil-bad thing, in that Cash Shop was sold Pay2Win, Lootboxes, and a slew of other predatory mechanics, and they did the unthinkable in a game platform that originally seemed designed for escapism from the harsh inequity of realty, they divided the player base based on how much real-money they spent on the game, splitting them into the Haves and Have-Nots.
This is their real problem.
So lets clear something up, It's not some stupid fancy butterfly wings or whatever that might be in the cash shop for 5 dollars this month that really gets under their skin and bugs them, as we can see from this topic alone, the simple fact that the shop will exist at all is what is triggering their outrage, that makes them feel betrayed.
So it's not what is in the Shop that gets them, as right now, there is nothing in it, there is no game. Just the idea of a game with a cash shop, so, with that said, what incites them is the very ugly history of what happened with Cash Shops, and for some, maybe directly to them personally, with the introduction predatory mechanics, like P2W, lootboxes, and other very divisionary tactics taken by some unscrupulous MMO/game developers.
With that said, I have long since accepted that Cash Shops will be a part of any MMO I play, with my only point of contention about them being how predatory are they. It is what it is.
But my acceptance does not mean that others are not in fact justified in their worry that this time will be as bad as the last time they were taken advantage of, and I can respect that is a very real concern for some.
Just putting this out there to explain it all to you, so you can better grasp where some of them are coming from.
Comments
And what do you think the cash shop will sell? The title of the thread is literally "Pantheon and a Cosmetic Cash Shop." The whole controversy started because Ben Dean mentioned the remote possibly of a cosmetic only cash shop.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Do you realize that originally those pledge rewards were going to have minor bonuses? ... they werent going to be cosmetic until later when they were reevaluated.
Within the last year joppa has said they still dont have most of those pledge items developed.
For those who seem to think the "no cash shop" statements were old, before the recent forum change the FAQ said there wouldnt be a cash shop.
Blast from the past. Matt Firor talking about why ESO would be sub only back in 2013. We all know what happened in 2015:
"It's important to state that our decision to go with subscriptions is not a referendum on online game revenue models. F2P, B2P, etc. are valid, proven business models - but subscription is the one that fits ESO the best, given our commitment to freedom of gameplay, quality and long-term content delivery.
"Plus, players will appreciate not having to worry about being 'monetized' in the middle of playing the game, which is definitely a problem that is cropping up more and more in online gaming these days. The fact that the word 'monetized' exists points to the heart of the issue for us: We don't want the player to worry about which parts of the game to pay for - with our system, they get it all."
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
There is drama over the a cash shop selling cosmetic items. The pledges have cosmetic items as well but no one cares. That's it. Why is one bad but the other is ok?
You are dealing with a demographic that still looks back fondly with rose colored glasses on an era of their youth when paying a Sub and playing a game seemed like the perfect innocent gamer childhood dream, like sitting on the sidewalk on a hot summer day enjoying Ice Cream.
The ideal dream of a Sub is everyone is 100% equal, we all have the same position in the game hierarchy. I mean obviously those with more time and skill were going to be better, have more, and all that, but, as far as the game itself went, everyone was on the same footing of paying their monthly sub, no more, no less.
This meant that the Starving Artist, the Power Executive, the Retired, the Burger Flipper, all of them were on the same footing when they went to play the Sub.
All Perfectly Equal, as things should be.
That all changed when Cash Shops came in. Cash Shops allowed for people to spend as little or much as they wanted to play the game, now that does not sound bad in and of it's own right, as it allows that starving artist to not need to worry about the sub and only spend what they can afford, which might be a whole lot of nothing. The retired on a fixed income can remain largely the same, the Burger Flipper can spend as they get their pay check, some good weeks and they can spend more, so light weeks and they spend less, and the power executive can spend buckets which in the end remove any sense of guilt by the starving artist or burger flipper if they don't spend any money this month, the Executive spends more than enough to carry them. That sounds great at first.
But, they became very quickly this evil-bad thing, in that Cash Shop was sold Pay2Win, Lootboxes, and a slew of other predatory mechanics, and they did the unthinkable in a game platform that originally seemed designed for escapism from the harsh inequity of realty, they divided the player base based on how much real-money they spent on the game, splitting them into the Haves and Have-Nots.
This is their real problem.
So lets clear something up, It's not some stupid fancy butterfly wings or whatever that might be in the cash shop for 5 dollars this month that really gets under their skin and bugs them, as we can see from this topic alone, the simple fact that the shop will exist at all is what is triggering their outrage, that makes them feel betrayed.
So it's not what is in the Shop that gets them, as right now, there is nothing in it, there is no game. Just the idea of a game with a cash shop, so, with that said, what incites them is the very ugly history of what happened with Cash Shops, and for some, maybe directly to them personally, with the introduction predatory mechanics, like P2W, lootboxes, and other very divisionary tactics taken by some unscrupulous MMO/game developers.
With that said, I have long since accepted that Cash Shops will be a part of any MMO I play, with my only point of contention about them being how predatory are they. It is what it is.
But my acceptance does not mean that others are not in fact justified in their worry that this time will be as bad as the last time they were taken advantage of, and I can respect that is a very real concern for some.
Just putting this out there to explain it all to you, so you can better grasp where some of them are coming from.
Cosmetics offered in the pledge packages are not the issue, only the possibility of a cash shop is.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.