So annoying that “if you like fashion you have to pay”. What if you had to pay to quest, or pay to sell your loot. I get that these games have to make money, it’s just weird that they all pick fashion as the monetary scapegoat. Imagine making a game that was good enough that you didn’t have to bottleneck character customization behind a paywall.
My son told me yesterday that some gun skins in Valorant can run $80 for a pack. I almost crapped myself laughing at the ridiculousness of it.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Is your internet connection less $ than 2 decades ago and only a trillion times faster, yes or no?
If you want you could fire up your own SWG server and have people connect to it from around the world, with your own pocket change, got a hun? for a year.
I didn't have internet a few decades ago so I couldn't tell you.
But it sounds to me like you are guessing.
As far as I can tell, running multiple servers for a video game and allowing connectivity to that service is different than getting HBO and internet.
So the question then should go to people on this site who are familiar with these services.
"Is it indeed less expensive."
In answer to your question it is cheap because during the brouhaha of City of Heroes and the multiple private servers they all put out their costs clearly and in fact the top pirated servers run by Homecoming broke down their costs and ask for exactly that sun to be donated each month. It's very cheap.
Thanks. Any idea what that amount was?
The level of quality between the cheap cloud servers that City of Heroes use (and all the back end infrastructure like storage, databases, network security) is night and day different than what a major AAA self-hosted company will use like Blizzard.
Of course it's cheap - when you don't need to worry about logging every chat message, or having a super robust PCI compliant payment and audit system, nor do you have to worry about being able to do robust load or high level of network security to handle intrustion prevention, when you have no customer service to be able to look into the account history etc...
Also metrics - metrics and reporting are huge for game companies - the reporting infrastructure alone can cost tens of millions of dollars
When you scale shit way down and cut 90% of the capability - it's going to be a lot cheaper - like 1000 times cheaper.
Just don't equate - well these 2 guys host a City of Heroes server and their cost is 300 per month, why did NCSoft cost per month was so high.
because they had 100x the systems and back end that was built to run at 100x performance and provide features and capabilities that are simply non-existent in the cheap cloud hosted solution.
Redundancy isn't cheap.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Lipstick on a pig. P2W isn't the only concern. There are chase items in a game that give the game play session purpose. Those items can be cosmetic only or they can be power gear, but If those items are moved to a cash shop then it also removes a large incentive to play.
Additionally this game is going to be a subscription based model. This is plain evidence that mandatory subscriptions alone do not pay the bills and are pointless.
When a revenue model is part of a game then the game is designed around that income stream. This will end up no different than Shroud of the Avatar, Ashes of Creation, SWTOR, LotRO, Fallout 76, ESO, or GW2 with their heavy cash shop focus. Face it, Games as a Service have all ended up Cash Shops as a Service. The mandatory subscription is just additonal salt in the wound.
If a game is B2P with a cash shop then maybe I'll consider it. If I wanted sub + cash shop I could play WoW.
I did like how ESO does it. Play for free and get limited access. Use the cash shop to buy access to what you want. Or Sub and get all access but the expansion. I know many hated that system but I found it fair. Play and pay how you want is how I saw it.
Cash shops in gaming are a way of life now. They’re not going away. It just makes too much money for a business not to have it. Even WoW added a cash shop years ago and no one ever seemed to care. It’s even rumored that WoW makes more money from cash shop than subs. So I have to look at it from a perspective of “will it ruin my game experience?”
GW2 - has gone beyond cosmetics only -there's a way you can convert real money to game currency
Just want to clear something up.
The Gem Exchange has been with GW2 since day the very start.
It's really nothing more than an Auction House for players willing to sell their Gems for Gold, and players who want to buy Gems with their Gold.
It allows players who don't want to spend real money on the game to still get stuff from the Cash Shop in a fair way.
and yet people complain about it.. just no pleasing some people.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I don't understand people who think P2W exists in PvE focused games. What exactly are you paying to win? P2W always has and always will refer to PvP focused games, where competitive nature actually has an impact on your personal gameplay.
As for cosmetics ruining old school gaming experience by giving players the ability to look cool without having actually earned that social status, I do agree with that. EQ was very well know for veteran players showing off their achievements. That was actually one of the main facets of the game. So yes, a cosmetic cash shop is going to drastically diminish any old school feel in that regard, so I completely understand why people are upset.
That's what P2W means to you, but that certainly isn't what it means to me. I can win the lottery, I can win a new car, I can win a free vacation, I can win armor dropped from a boss. The means in which I do that are either through effort, or fortune.
You can either pay to win it, or play to win it. By the literal definitions of those words it can mean either way, and I choose this one because games are meant to be played.
Games are meant to be played but thats your perspective as a gamer. Are you the only one that matters in that equation? For a developer its games pay to keep my family fed. For a company its what makes me money and pays my staff.
Small companies need ways to find a way to have value in the product they sell when looking at games like WoW that dictate where that benchmark is. WoW charges as low as 15 a month in Canada. They have a cash shop thats makes them tones of money but you do not need to use their cash shop, so someone playing the game can say. Market value is $15 a month for a quality game.
Maybe Pantheon to keep their lights on, its $18 a month or $22 a month to keep the lights on and the game getting new content. But how can they do that when people see $15 a month is fair price? So how does VR make up that extra $7 bucks a month when they charge $15 a month? Smaller companies are stuck because now cash shops are counted in on how business make money.
I get it, I do. I'm going to sound like an ass hole for saying this, and I've been called one more than a few times so perhaps I am, but I simply do not care about their financial situation. I don't take their business into consideration, I just look at the game solely for what it is without the baggage. If I like it, good. If I don't, no sweat.
Pantheon's business is Pantheon's business. I prefer they keep it to themselves and stop mixing business with design philosophy, because this shit is like oil and water. I don't care 'why' they're thinking about adding a cash shop, I only care 'if' and 'how' they add a cash shop and what potential damage it will have on the game.
Don't get me wrong, If I could snap my fingers and rid the world of hunger I would do it at the cost of my own fingers, but their money problems aren't my money problems. This endeavor was a decision they made, and I shouldn't have to feel like I'm obligated to accept shitty game practices for the sake of people's employment.
To answer you're question if I'm the only one that matters in the equation, the answer is yes. I play games for my enjoyment, I don't play games so the people who make them can buy boats. I've never seen a game and thought "You know what, that looks fucking terrible and I hate everything about it, but I'm going to buy it so the developer can eat".
That may have come off a little bitchy, but I assure you that I mean no disrespect or ill will to you or anyone at VR. I just hate cash shops so much that the only way I can write anything related to them is with some degree of anger and frustration.
First I would never call anyone that. Second, I was not telling you that you dont matter. Only how you see it is different from how a developer, company or even another gamer would see it. As others in this thread have pointed out. If no cash shop is the only option. I dont know any MMOs left you can play lol
It's about time people started accepting reality and quite honestly this isn't really as big a thing as it is being made out to be. The bigger thing would be the game not releasing at all. If they need a cash shop for the game I am not going to complain. I will support it.
Of course not. People always want to ignore the "...and convenience" part of cash shops in the games they like and also ignore the incentive this gives developers to make the base game that much more inconvenient.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I mean they have it all, B2P, cosmetics with a touch of PFA, and a not so optional monthly sub which provides such tremendous conveniences I personally could never do without.
Yet still you and I play and pay.
Why? Because the game offers an IP / virtual environment we enjoy, has some solid, almost unique gameplay / mechanics and we've met good people there.
Despite the fact it is a bit poor in code quality and cheaters run rampant while Bethesda looks the other way unless they jeapordize the bottom line we still play on.
At the end of the day the value I receive well exceeds the cost.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If an MMO Can't survive on a Required Sub, it has more problems then simply if should have a cash shop, because lets be real, a fixed 15 a month per player, exceeds what current F2P MMO's are making.
This is also why I like the Turbine DDO Model, where you can pay a sub and gain access to all the Non-Expansion content, free and clear, along with a few added boons, like Elite Unlock, Weekly Gold Roll, Exp Boon, and of course some points to play with.
You can become a Premium Member once you spend any real money at all on the game, and this includes a Sub fee, so if you stop paying the sub you get Down Graded to Premium not the "Free" account. You can also buy DLC's/Adventure Packs, races, classes, traits, Shared bank, and a slew of other things in a piecemeal manner, as you so wish. Some things being more convenient than others, but none of them being absolutely necessary to play the game.
Or you can play their unlimited time trial for free. This has some restrictions, like how much gold you can carry, how often you can use the Auction House, etc. However, you can earn Turbine Points for Free in DDO, albeit slowly, none the less it is possible to buy every single thing sold in the store without spending a single red cent on the game. This includes all DLC's, adventure packs, bank Space, and the like, and some DDO players have in fact take up this challenge, we have had people make completionist while playing on totally free accounts.
Personally, I am not a fan of letting players just play for free, I have been more a fan of B2P games, to be honest, that way we weed out all the freeloaders right from the start and all the people that are just looking for a free ride can look elsewhere.
This is also why I like the system that Eternal Crusade did (I think Fortnight also did this), where they had it so that the "Box Price" was like $20 dollars (I forget, but it was not much) anyway, once you paid this, you gained full access to the game, this included any and all banked exp, as well as all the acclimated gameplay rewards, and extra shit that was included in the "Box Fee" but you could spend the $20 in any way in their store, so you could get all the extra store items, as well as the full Box Package that went with it.
I remember playing Eternal Crusade and on the 2nd hour I had spent the $20 just to unlock the game, because I was having fun, equally so,. when it came to Fortnight I felt no such desire as the game itself was not clicking with me.
Which I think is how games should be, if you are having fun, you should be willing to invest into the games longevity, if you are not willing to spend any money on the game because you don't feel that it is worth supporting, then, truth be told, you should be looking for some other game to play that you do feel are worth supporting.
Personally, on that front, I am more a fan of buying the content packs than paying a Sub, because if I buy the packs, I can always take a break and come back whenever I want, and return to what I paid for, with a sub, I get nothing for the money spent, if I leave, I lose the money/time till the end of the sub, if I want to return I have to pay for with, with nothing to show for all the money I previously invested into the game.
It is like the difference between buying a condo vs renting an apartment, I would rather buy, but that is not the path for everyone.
This is why I love the Turbine DDO model. I could pay a sub for fast continual access as I play, I could buy the content and never have to worry about a sub again, I can mix things up, I can have a sub and buy some other content, I have choices.
Equally so, I can't say I am a fan of buying things from the store, like cosmetics, and I hate loot boxes.
Personally, I think the best way to do things, is to sell the content, and then put the rewards in the content pack, even if the reward is a cosmetic skin, like for example example, as opposed to selling some badass looking great sword that looks like it's made of Smoke and Fire in the store, instead, put it in the Devil Assault Pack and anyone that wants it, can buy the pack and do their best to beat the Balor that is carrying it, which I might add, that skin is Bound to your Account, you won't be going and getting that for anyone but yourself, so everyone that has it.. earned it.
This does a few things.
It keeps the game growing. Selling Content is the best way to ensure that more content gets made.
Everything a player has, they earned.
It's Pay to Play, pure and simple, you buy the content you want to play.
It's honest. No RNG Loot Chest gambling BS, it's a fair and honest trade. They get what they buy.
You have choices, if you want to just pay a Sub, you can do that, but you still have all access to premium even when you stop the sub and keep everything you earned.
You can take breaks, and come back without needing to worry about account access or anything like that.
It makes it fair for games where earing your reward matters.
People look forward to Updates and extra content, to see what gets made next.
Eliminates Freeloaders.
This list goes on for a bit when you think about it, and ideally there is no downside to this system, unless of course you are one of those people that want everything for free, then, rightfully so, this will not work for you.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
It's about time people started accepting reality and quite honestly this isn't really as big a thing as it is being made out to be. The bigger thing would be the game not releasing at all. If they need a cash shop for the game I am not going to complain. I will support it.
On contrary - it's a much bigger issue than than most realize.
Gameplay and monetization are closely linked together.
Before cash shop - in a pure subscription + box price + expansion model (like EQ1 for example) - devs could solely focus on the game. They knew the only way to make money was to make the game be good enough to sell, and all game design, all assets were simply added to the game, as players could obtain everything created for the game just by playing. This is a very focused and singular game design.
Cash shop even when only cosmetic - introduces another set of requirements for devs - see that armor that you got from quest X - well you need to make an even better looking armor now that people could buy in the cash shop, so suddently the artists and devs have to account not only for creating stuff in the game, but also creating assets for the cash shop - in a way that has to be better looking and more desirable than in game items.
Suddenly you have artists, and character creators thinking - well I have to now make sure to make armor skins and costumes for the cash shop - often much better looking than the game ones so that they would sell. So there's this entire "quality tier" that has to be taken into account - game quality vs cash shop quality - so their job becomes a lot more difficult. Can't just be creative and just add the best work you have to the game - nope - you have to create intentionally crappier looking skins for the in-game content.
it's shit.
So the people working on the game always have to keep in the back of their mind how to make stuff for game and the cash shop - keeping the best looking options for the cash shop.
It sucks - it ruins the game design, and as cash shop goes from pure cosmetics to more utility and more "pay for advantage" over time - more and more game design has shifted from "just put it all into the game" - to "hey you have to change the game to account for the cash shop"
So it's a shit reality - where instead of just adding the best work devs can do directly into the game - and not have to worry about "saving the best for the cash shop" sure you can accept all you want - but it's worse for the devs and it's worse for the gamers longterm.
Isn't that the case in any business? Of course you have to allocate resources and if you do not have enough people then the people working on the cash shop might have more people than the one working on the game. Anything that is going to be part of the money making branch will have better resources. That is the reality of business. Gaming is a business , it is a hobby for me but not for the people making the game unless you're Elon Musk and can afford to make it a hobby like going to Mars is for him.
You know what brought us here. Players who decided F2P is better for them. Blame yourself players who wanted to play and not pay.
These people are not Blizzard, EA, Amazon or Bethesda they do not have the huge resources these companies have and yet those companies are also using cosmetics to draw in the cash and you sincerely expect the indies to survive without it. Time to face reality and the fact that 2020 has been one of the worst years for a lot of businesses. I doubt indie games were spared.
If I have to choose between the game coming out with a cash shop and sub and not coming out at all I will pick the former.
If the idea of cash shops ever flies over your head just look at some of the scummy moves by Chris Robert's. I forget the exact numbers but he was and likely still is selling ship packages costing 2/5/10k which is just insane. Yes there are people with more money than brains in this world.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I want to also point out that $15 is too much for a sub fee.Devs are using that money to pay for their staff to build the next expansion which they will sell you.So they are double dipping,you either charge the money up front to build ongoing content >>$15 a month or you charge for the expansion but NOT both.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
If an MMO Can't survive on a Required Sub, it has more problems then simply if should have a cash shop, because lets be real, a fixed 15 a month per player, exceeds what current F2P MMO's are making.
This is also why I like the Turbine DDO Model, where you can pay a sub and gain access to all the Non-Expansion content, free and clear, along with a few added boons, like Elite Unlock, Weekly Gold Roll, Exp Boon, and of course some points to play with.
You can become a Premium Member once you spend any real money at all on the game, and this includes a Sub fee, so if you stop paying the sub you get Down Graded to Premium not the "Free" account. You can also buy DLC's/Adventure Packs, races, classes, traits, Shared bank, and a slew of other things in a piecemeal manner, as you so wish. Some things being more convenient than others, but none of them being absolutely necessary to play the game.
Or you can play their unlimited time trial for free. This has some restrictions, like how much gold you can carry, how often you can use the Auction House, etc. However, you can earn Turbine Points for Free in DDO, albeit slowly, none the less it is possible to buy every single thing sold in the store without spending a single red cent on the game. This includes all DLC's, adventure packs, bank Space, and the like, and some DDO players have in fact take up this challenge, we have had people make completionist while playing on totally free accounts.
Personally, I am not a fan of letting players just play for free, I have been more a fan of B2P games, to be honest, that way we weed out all the freeloaders right from the start and all the people that are just looking for a free ride can look elsewhere.
This is also why I like the system that Eternal Crusade did (I think Fortnight also did this), where they had it so that the "Box Price" was like $20 dollars (I forget, but it was not much) anyway, once you paid this, you gained full access to the game, this included any and all banked exp, as well as all the acclimated gameplay rewards, and extra shit that was included in the "Box Fee" but you could spend the $20 in any way in their store, so you could get all the extra store items, as well as the full Box Package that went with it.
I remember playing Eternal Crusade and on the 2nd hour I had spent the $20 just to unlock the game, because I was having fun, equally so,. when it came to Fortnight I felt no such desire as the game itself was not clicking with me.
Which I think is how games should be, if you are having fun, you should be willing to invest into the games longevity, if you are not willing to spend any money on the game because you don't feel that it is worth supporting, then, truth be told, you should be looking for some other game to play that you do feel are worth supporting.
Personally, on that front, I am more a fan of buying the content packs than paying a Sub, because if I buy the packs, I can always take a break and come back whenever I want, and return to what I paid for, with a sub, I get nothing for the money spent, if I leave, I lose the money/time till the end of the sub, if I want to return I have to pay for with, with nothing to show for all the money I previously invested into the game.
It is like the difference between buying a condo vs renting an apartment, I would rather buy, but that is not the path for everyone.
This is why I love the Turbine DDO model. I could pay a sub for fast continual access as I play, I could buy the content and never have to worry about a sub again, I can mix things up, I can have a sub and buy some other content, I have choices.
Equally so, I can't say I am a fan of buying things from the store, like cosmetics, and I hate loot boxes.
Personally, I think the best way to do things, is to sell the content, and then put the rewards in the content pack, even if the reward is a cosmetic skin, like for example example, as opposed to selling some badass looking great sword that looks like it's made of Smoke and Fire in the store, instead, put it in the Devil Assault Pack and anyone that wants it, can buy the pack and do their best to beat the Balor that is carrying it, which I might add, that skin is Bound to your Account, you won't be going and getting that for anyone but yourself, so everyone that has it.. earned it.
This does a few things.
It keeps the game growing. Selling Content is the best way to ensure that more content gets made.
Everything a player has, they earned.
It's Pay to Play, pure and simple, you buy the content you want to play.
It's honest. No RNG Loot Chest gambling BS, it's a fair and honest trade. They get what they buy.
You have choices, if you want to just pay a Sub, you can do that, but you still have all access to premium even when you stop the sub and keep everything you earned.
You can take breaks, and come back without needing to worry about account access or anything like that.
It makes it fair for games where earing your reward matters.
People look forward to Updates and extra content, to see what gets made next.
Eliminates Freeloaders.
This list goes on for a bit when you think about it, and ideally there is no downside to this system, unless of course you are one of those people that want everything for free, then, rightfully so, this will not work for you.
I think I like what you're getting at. Let me make sure I understand: So you're saying instead of buying a bunch hoopla from the cash shop, you buy a content pack that has some sort of challenges associated with it, and the rewards (typical cash shop items) come as you complete the content pack... ?
I think that's brilliant. I mean, I prefer a flat fee, but that's a damn good compromise even for someone like me who wouldn't piss on a cash shop to save a kitten. Even if I don't want the items specifically, at least it's not wasting resources on non gameplay related content.
Content like that is limited and people will not constantly buy it. Once you buy an area in the game you're not going to buy it again. Developers don't make that much money that way and what is worse many players actually end up resenting having to pay for content. There is an instinctive disconnect between paying for something they feel is essential to their gaming and one that is optional like a nice outfit which they will buy over and over in different colours. Take the SWTOR action bar which was such a low amount but which will be the constant litmus for having gone too far.
"If an MMO Can't survive on a Required Sub, it has more problems then
simply if should have a cash shop, because lets be real, a fixed 15 a
month per player, exceeds what current F2P MMO's are making."
Just like some players don't like forced grouping, some of us don't like being forced to pay to play.....You look at it a year later and realize you have paid $180 for a video game (if many even make it a year) and to me the value just isn't there. If it really is a cosmetic shop then people are buying things they want and like, not just for the priviliege to play.
Is your internet connection less $ than 2 decades ago and only a trillion times faster, yes or no?
If you want you could fire up your own SWG server and have people connect to it from around the world, with your own pocket change, got a hun? for a year.
I didn't have internet a few decades ago so I couldn't tell you.
But it sounds to me like you are guessing.
As far as I can tell, running multiple servers for a video game and allowing connectivity to that service is different than getting HBO and internet.
So the question then should go to people on this site who are familiar with these services.
"Is it indeed less expensive."
In answer to your question it is cheap because during the brouhaha of City of Heroes and the multiple private servers they all put out their costs clearly and in fact the top pirated servers run by Homecoming broke down their costs and ask for exactly that sun to be donated each month. It's very cheap.
Thanks. Any idea what that amount was?
The level of quality between the cheap cloud servers that City of Heroes use (and all the back end infrastructure like storage, databases, network security) is night and day different than what a major AAA self-hosted company will use like Blizzard.
Of course it's cheap - when you don't need to worry about logging every chat message, or having a super robust PCI compliant payment and audit system, nor do you have to worry about being able to do robust load or high level of network security to handle intrustion prevention, when you have no customer service to be able to look into the account history etc...
Also metrics - metrics and reporting are huge for game companies - the reporting infrastructure alone can cost tens of millions of dollars
When you scale shit way down and cut 90% of the capability - it's going to be a lot cheaper - like 1000 times cheaper.
Just don't equate - well these 2 guys host a City of Heroes server and their cost is 300 per month, why did NCSoft cost per month was so high.
because they had 100x the systems and back end that was built to run at 100x performance and provide features and capabilities that are simply non-existent in the cheap cloud hosted solution.
Thank you! I suspected there was more to it but not knowing enough about the subject (technically) or dealing with it from the accounts payable side, I couldn't really commen.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Xodic said: I think I like what you're getting at. Let me make sure I understand:
So you're saying instead of buying a bunch hoopla from the cash shop, you buy a content pack that has some sort of challenges associated with it, and the rewards (typical cash shop items) come as you complete the content pack... ?
I think that's brilliant. I mean, I prefer a flat fee, but that's a damn good compromise even for someone like me who wouldn't piss on a cash shop to save a kitten. Even if I don't want the items specifically, at least it's not wasting resources on non gameplay related content.
Yes, that is Exactly the Idea.
As opposed to selling Items, loot boxes, cosmetics, or goods in the Cash Shop, you just buy Adventure Packs and go a play the game.
The adventure packs can be Open World maps, Dungeons, Raids, Jumping Puzzles, Etc, often a combination of each in a single pack.
Now I am not sure what games people have here to work from, some I know have played DDO, so they know this system well enough, others it seems really have no idea how this works.
DDO uses a multi tiered system.
On the most basic level, you Buy the Adventure Pack, do the content, get the physical rewards, like weapons, armor, etc. IE: Doing the Abbot raid and getting the Abbots special gloves called Vile Blasphemy, or Pulling Infested Armor from the Daemon Bloodplate.
The very basic thing we as players understand how games work.
Now of course this could revised to meet more modern gaming systems where getting Infested Armor also provided an account unlock to use the Cosmetic (Like GW2 does) as opposed to Infested Armor being limited to that exact suit of Armor you wear, because some people might really like the Look but not the Stats.
In any case, to get that armor, you need to have purchased the Chronoscope Adventure Pack, and beaten Bloodplate, and since this is an old school game, lucked out from the RNG Gods and pulled the Armor.
But this could be expanded upon to get anything. Weapons, Armor, Capes, Backpacks, Glowy things that players like that fit into random slots called accessories, Mini's, Mounts, Mount Skins, Toys, Pets, you name it, it's all in the pack.
You buy the pack and earn the rewards as you want.
On the next level, You build Favor Rewards. This is both faction Specific and Game wide rewards, and they open up other types of things you can get, often character/account upgrades
Like for example, the favor Reward for House Kundrak is additional Bank Space, so as opposed to going to the store and clicking "Buy more bank space" instead you do all the content that rewards House Kundrak favor, and will get the bank space you desire. However, to achieve this, you also need to buy and complete ALL the Adventure Packs that give that favor, if you want the top tier.
Equally so, you have Overall Favor rewards, for example, when you complete 2,500 total favor you unlock the Favored Soul Class, and in the same vein as House K favor, you will need to buy and complete much content to earn this reward, even it does not matter what content you do.
Now, DDO is an old game, and their system reflects this, but their concept is solid, as opposed to selling all this "Extra Stuff" in the store, just sell the Adventure Packs, let players play the game.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
and quite honestly this isn't really as big a thing as it is being made out to be.
Gotta love newbs, they're so cute!
anything mmorpg related is HUGE!!! lol
Kitarad my dude you've probably been playing mmorpg's for longer than i have for all i know, just mak'in a joke.
1999 Everquest vet here
It isn't such a big deal because the player base Pantheon is being made for are the Everquest players. Much of the concerns expressed here wouldn't fly with that crowd and I think the developers know that.
It isn't the doom and gloom you're projecting and as @Torval said you don't have to accept anything; great stuff choice ain't it. They will have to make it palatable and knowing the older Everquest crowd I cannot see them going very far down this slippery slope.
I have no problems buying stash tabs for Path of Exile and throwing cash at them for cosmetics because I am constantly in awe of their work in the game. They are easy to support. If Pantheon deserves it support it but this premature tarring and feathering is really just something we do on the forums.
It isn't the doom and gloom you're projecting and as @Torval said you don't have to accept anything; great stuff choice ain't it. They will have to make it palatable and knowing the older Everquest crowd I cannot see them going very far down this slippery slope.
I'm still wondering *how* VR intends to get the EQ players to leave their beloved characters they've sweated over to simply stop and switch games to start over. Once the people have been dislodged from their 20 year habit, then you can deal with the cash shop issue. Many, if not most, of those EQ vets who are still there have put up with the SOE/DBG/DarkPaw cash shop for years.
Or is Pantheon being made for those EQ vets who stopped EQ because of the cash shop?
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
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My son told me yesterday that some gun skins in Valorant can run $80 for a pack. I almost crapped myself laughing at the ridiculousness of it.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Here-we-go-again with cash shops
Excalibur sword on sale $25
Be in style, summer dress $7
Will be just another failed game like the 300 on the list.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
The Gem Exchange has been with GW2 since day the very start.
It's really nothing more than an Auction House for players willing to sell their Gems for Gold, and players who want to buy Gems with their Gold.
It allows players who don't want to spend real money on the game to still get stuff from the Cash Shop in a fair way.
and yet people complain about it.. just no pleasing some people.
Scroll down to the "Utility" category: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Gem_Store
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I mean they have it all, B2P, cosmetics with a touch of PFA, and a not so optional monthly sub which provides such tremendous conveniences I personally could never do without.
Yet still you and I play and pay.
Why? Because the game offers an IP / virtual environment we enjoy, has some solid, almost unique gameplay / mechanics and we've met good people there.
Despite the fact it is a bit poor in code quality and cheaters run rampant while Bethesda looks the other way unless they jeapordize the bottom line we still play on.
At the end of the day the value I receive well exceeds the cost.
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If an MMO Can't survive on a Required Sub, it has more problems then simply if should have a cash shop, because lets be real, a fixed 15 a month per player, exceeds what current F2P MMO's are making.
This is also why I like the Turbine DDO Model, where you can pay a sub and gain access to all the Non-Expansion content, free and clear, along with a few added boons, like Elite Unlock, Weekly Gold Roll, Exp Boon, and of course some points to play with.
You can become a Premium Member once you spend any real money at all on the game, and this includes a Sub fee, so if you stop paying the sub you get Down Graded to Premium not the "Free" account. You can also buy DLC's/Adventure Packs, races, classes, traits, Shared bank, and a slew of other things in a piecemeal manner, as you so wish. Some things being more convenient than others, but none of them being absolutely necessary to play the game.
Or you can play their unlimited time trial for free. This has some restrictions, like how much gold you can carry, how often you can use the Auction House, etc. However, you can earn Turbine Points for Free in DDO, albeit slowly, none the less it is possible to buy every single thing sold in the store without spending a single red cent on the game. This includes all DLC's, adventure packs, bank Space, and the like, and some DDO players have in fact take up this challenge, we have had people make completionist while playing on totally free accounts.
Personally, I am not a fan of letting players just play for free, I have been more a fan of B2P games, to be honest, that way we weed out all the freeloaders right from the start and all the people that are just looking for a free ride can look elsewhere.
This is also why I like the system that Eternal Crusade did (I think Fortnight also did this), where they had it so that the "Box Price" was like $20 dollars (I forget, but it was not much) anyway, once you paid this, you gained full access to the game, this included any and all banked exp, as well as all the acclimated gameplay rewards, and extra shit that was included in the "Box Fee" but you could spend the $20 in any way in their store, so you could get all the extra store items, as well as the full Box Package that went with it.
I remember playing Eternal Crusade and on the 2nd hour I had spent the $20 just to unlock the game, because I was having fun, equally so,. when it came to Fortnight I felt no such desire as the game itself was not clicking with me.
Which I think is how games should be, if you are having fun, you should be willing to invest into the games longevity, if you are not willing to spend any money on the game because you don't feel that it is worth supporting, then, truth be told, you should be looking for some other game to play that you do feel are worth supporting.
Personally, on that front, I am more a fan of buying the content packs than paying a Sub, because if I buy the packs, I can always take a break and come back whenever I want, and return to what I paid for, with a sub, I get nothing for the money spent, if I leave, I lose the money/time till the end of the sub, if I want to return I have to pay for with, with nothing to show for all the money I previously invested into the game.
It is like the difference between buying a condo vs renting an apartment, I would rather buy, but that is not the path for everyone.
This is why I love the Turbine DDO model. I could pay a sub for fast continual access as I play, I could buy the content and never have to worry about a sub again, I can mix things up, I can have a sub and buy some other content, I have choices.
Equally so, I can't say I am a fan of buying things from the store, like cosmetics, and I hate loot boxes.
Personally, I think the best way to do things, is to sell the content, and then put the rewards in the content pack, even if the reward is a cosmetic skin, like for example example, as opposed to selling some badass looking great sword that looks like it's made of Smoke and Fire in the store, instead, put it in the Devil Assault Pack and anyone that wants it, can buy the pack and do their best to beat the Balor that is carrying it, which I might add, that skin is Bound to your Account, you won't be going and getting that for anyone but yourself, so everyone that has it.. earned it.
This does a few things.
This list goes on for a bit when you think about it, and ideally there is no downside to this system, unless of course you are one of those people that want everything for free, then, rightfully so, this will not work for you.
You know what brought us here. Players who decided F2P is better for them. Blame yourself players who wanted to play and not pay.
These people are not Blizzard, EA, Amazon or Bethesda they do not have the huge resources these companies have and yet those companies are also using cosmetics to draw in the cash and you sincerely expect the indies to survive without it. Time to face reality and the fact that 2020 has been one of the worst years for a lot of businesses. I doubt indie games were spared.
If I have to choose between the game coming out with a cash shop and sub and not coming out at all I will pick the former.
I forget the exact numbers but he was and likely still is selling ship packages costing 2/5/10k which is just insane.
Yes there are people with more money than brains in this world.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
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Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
As opposed to selling Items, loot boxes, cosmetics, or goods in the Cash Shop, you just buy Adventure Packs and go a play the game.
The adventure packs can be Open World maps, Dungeons, Raids, Jumping Puzzles, Etc, often a combination of each in a single pack.
Now I am not sure what games people have here to work from, some I know have played DDO, so they know this system well enough, others it seems really have no idea how this works.
DDO uses a multi tiered system.
On the most basic level, you Buy the Adventure Pack, do the content, get the physical rewards, like weapons, armor, etc. IE: Doing the Abbot raid and getting the Abbots special gloves called Vile Blasphemy, or Pulling Infested Armor from the Daemon Bloodplate.
The very basic thing we as players understand how games work.
Now of course this could revised to meet more modern gaming systems where getting Infested Armor also provided an account unlock to use the Cosmetic (Like GW2 does) as opposed to Infested Armor being limited to that exact suit of Armor you wear, because some people might really like the Look but not the Stats.
In any case, to get that armor, you need to have purchased the Chronoscope Adventure Pack, and beaten Bloodplate, and since this is an old school game, lucked out from the RNG Gods and pulled the Armor.
But this could be expanded upon to get anything. Weapons, Armor, Capes, Backpacks, Glowy things that players like that fit into random slots called accessories, Mini's, Mounts, Mount Skins, Toys, Pets, you name it, it's all in the pack.
You buy the pack and earn the rewards as you want.
On the next level, You build Favor Rewards. This is both faction Specific and Game wide rewards, and they open up other types of things you can get, often character/account upgrades
Like for example, the favor Reward for House Kundrak is additional Bank Space, so as opposed to going to the store and clicking "Buy more bank space" instead you do all the content that rewards House Kundrak favor, and will get the bank space you desire. However, to achieve this, you also need to buy and complete ALL the Adventure Packs that give that favor, if you want the top tier.
Equally so, you have Overall Favor rewards, for example, when you complete 2,500 total favor you unlock the Favored Soul Class, and in the same vein as House K favor, you will need to buy and complete much content to earn this reward, even it does not matter what content you do.
Now, DDO is an old game, and their system reflects this, but their concept is solid, as opposed to selling all this "Extra Stuff" in the store, just sell the Adventure Packs, let players play the game.
It isn't such a big deal because the player base Pantheon is being made for are the Everquest players. Much of the concerns expressed here wouldn't fly with that crowd and I think the developers know that.
I have no problems buying stash tabs for Path of Exile and throwing cash at them for cosmetics because I am constantly in awe of their work in the game. They are easy to support. If Pantheon deserves it support it but this premature tarring and feathering is really just something we do on the forums.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.