Raph Koster's game status

Amaranthar

Raph's got 24 lead positions filled now. 
But what's interesting is that, if you go to the "jobs" section, there is only one job opening listed and that's "Lead Community Manager." 

https://www.playableworlds.com/team/

It seems pretty early for a forum at this point, but who knows. 
Maybe simply some news releases soon? 

Amathe

I nominate Suzie.

Wizardry

Well there is actually a way to make a pretty darn good game in a fast orderly fashion however it takes a bit of smarts of which i have seen little in the industry,loads of easy whales but not many smart producers.

I simply look at a game like Atlas,that team is VERY small but of course it already had the engine/template to simply make a MOD and call it a new game.So if a developer wanted to speed things up they would simply have to license an already to go engine/template and just reskin it and put a little more effort into it than what a garbage studio like Wildcard does with their games.

However 25 people is still just too small,still more than for example Atlas which means you could pull off another survival game in 2 years.So just maybe this dude already had access to or was presented an offer from someone to further develop an already started game/template.

We might also see a very simple scummy approach that has become industry standard.Make some cool PR video and get people to start handing over free money as an early access game.I mean i am sure industry vets have been watching Chris Robert's bank account rise incredibly with a half assed game and drooling over the millions.

Amathe

remsleep said:

Amathe said:

I nominate Suzie.

She would never take it so - no

You are probably right. I just think she would excel at it.

Amaranthar

Wizardry said:

Well there is actually a way to make a pretty darn good game in a fast orderly fashion however it takes a bit of smarts of which i have seen little in the industry,loads of easy whales but not many smart producers.

I simply look at a game like Atlas,that team is VERY small but of course it already had the engine/template to simply make a MOD and call it a new game.So if a developer wanted to speed things up they would simply have to license an already to go engine/template and just reskin it and put a little more effort into it than what a garbage studio like Wildcard does with their games.

However 25 people is still just too small,still more than for example Atlas which means you could pull off another survival game in 2 years.So just maybe this dude already had access to or was presented an offer from someone to further develop an already started game/template.

We might also see a very simple scummy approach that has become industry standard.Make some cool PR video and get people to start handing over free money as an early access game.I mean i am sure industry vets have been watching Chris Robert's bank account rise incredibly with a half assed game and drooling over the millions.

I've followed Raph for years, never met him but have had a very few e-mails with him over those years, as well as having been involved in conversations on his blog. 

This is my opinion based on those experiences. I could be a little off, but I think I have at least a little bit of an understanding of him. 

- No, he won't take over an existing code and modify that, he'll start fresh because he needs the entire thing built "custom" to his Sandboxy and very worldly game concepts. 

- I think he'll probably end up with 40-60 coders, with plenty of people able to do their thing plus a little bit of everything else. (Check out his hires.) 
He's talked about his experiences with too many people and how that can create problems with communication and other issues. 

- He's extremely experienced in MMO building and coding. 
- He's got an organized and logical mind that makes things seem easy for him. 
- He's jumped to the top of everything he's been involved with. 
- He's got a keen grasp of the social elements of MMO's. 

In short, his concepts and skills are, I believe, just what the gaming community is ready for now after tiring of the standard designs we've been seeing. 

I don't think it will take as long as most people think, but it won't be short either. 
He's always had the guidance to get things done by knowing what the problems will be and going directly in the right direction. 
After watching things and studying things for so many years, I think he's got a bead on exactly what to do and how to go about it. 

It won't be the same old same old, and it'll be a fun and diverse game all about being "in a world." 

BeansnBread

Love Raph. I remember reading stuff from him many times, especially back in the day. IMO, his vision for gaming was ahead of it's time and very aggressive in scope. 

However, I hope this project is not heading in the "second life" direction. This focus on "social" and not "RPG" leaves me feeling skeptical that I will end up liking whatever this thing is going to end up being.

Amaranthar

BeansnBread said:

Love Raph. I remember reading stuff from him many times, especially back in the day. IMO, his vision for gaming was ahead of it's time and very aggressive in scope. 

However, I hope this project is not heading in the "second life" direction. This focus on "social" and not "RPG" leaves me feeling skeptical that I will end up liking whatever this thing is going to end up being.

I don't think he's go the Second Life route, or anything like that. 
Remember this quote from Raph, way back when, "the players are your enemy." 
He didn't mean that in a mean way, it's just reality. We all know that. 
So I can't see him giving control to players over his game. 

However, attached to his game might be a MetaPlace type ability to create other games using those assets. 

But even that, I just don't see because the web site says "We Create Worlds." 
I think the idea is an old one, where a company saves assets and code to create multiple games. So we might see several games eventually, all using the same code, but with different art for the type, Fantasy, Sci-Fi, Steam Punk, whatever. 

Imagine the same world in different time eras for different games.
Something like:
- Game 1, "Kingdoms of Magic", in the year 200, on the world of Sofaria (Fantasy)
followed by:
- Game 2, "World of Ashes", part Fantasy and part Modern, after the great destruction of Sofaria
- Game 3, "Space, The Final Fight", Sci-Fi with a little Fantasy mixed in, centered on the world of Sofaria in a battle against alien invasion in the galactic sector and then beyond. 

And each successive game could re-use assets from those before as Relics and Collectibles. Heck, even as Quests or other adventure content (Dungeons). 

That's just my thinking. 

Amaranthar

Heck, if it's a truly worldly Sandbox, I'd play a Caveman game with
- Food groups that are important to grow your stats
- Stone weapons break and you need new supply sources
- Fantastic a wildlife and Flora diversity
- Lots of different potions 
- Spirit Magic
- Ancient evils in the dark places

I mean, Caveman is the same thing only with different art, when you think about it. 
Just for a different feel. 

Amaranthar

By the way, I think "social" for Raph is about the character interactions, not about social media. 

Amaranthar

OG_Zorvan said:

I want Raph to take his time and make the best game he possibly can, so when it comes out and fails he can finally be knocked off his "dev god" pedestal and go join Garriott and the rest in the has-been dumpster.

I guess I'm just a dumpster diver, looking for "one man's treasure."

Have you found yours? 

Amaranthar

remsleep said:

OG_Zorvan said:

Amaranthar said:

OG_Zorvan said:

I want Raph to take his time and make the best game he possibly can, so when it comes out and fails he can finally be knocked off his "dev god" pedestal and go join Garriott and the rest in the has-been dumpster.

I guess I'm just a dumpster diver, looking for "one man's treasure."

Have you found yours? 

Nope, I scrounge the same dumpsters just I try to avoid the truly rotten and mildewed sewage put out by the thankfully dwindling group of "gaming heroes".

The chance of Koster making a good game are the same as any - slim to none.

Yeah - how long has it been since Koster was relevant as in making a successful mmorpg?

Best of luck to him, but looking at all the big names falling on their face after initial success - its self evident that pulling off a good game is pretty rare occurrence no matter who is involved 

"So far", that is the hope. 
Raph's a different animal than every one of them. Therein lies the reason for hope.  

Amaranthar

remsleep said:

Amaranthar said:

remsleep said:

OG_Zorvan said:

Amaranthar said:

OG_Zorvan said:

I want Raph to take his time and make the best game he possibly can, so when it comes out and fails he can finally be knocked off his "dev god" pedestal and go join Garriott and the rest in the has-been dumpster.

I guess I'm just a dumpster diver, looking for "one man's treasure."

Have you found yours? 

Nope, I scrounge the same dumpsters just I try to avoid the truly rotten and mildewed sewage put out by the thankfully dwindling group of "gaming heroes".

The chance of Koster making a good game are the same as any - slim to none.

Yeah - how long has it been since Koster was relevant as in making a successful mmorpg?

Best of luck to him, but looking at all the big names falling on their face after initial success - its self evident that pulling off a good game is pretty rare occurrence no matter who is involved 

"So far", that is the hope. 
Raph's a different animal than every one of them. Therein lies the reason for hope.  

There is always a reason for hope - but it takes way more than just 1 person to make a great mmorpg. 

My opinion - Raph can fail just as hard no matter how brilliant he might be.

True, but that's the same as any business. 
A lot depends on hiring good, quality people, as well as the right vision and leadership. 
Experience is a huge bonus.  
The possibilities are there, in my opinion. 

Amaranthar

I think maybe you folks think I'm just a fanboi. 
Hardly. I'm a realist. 
I don't want to explain, too long and no one wants to hear about me. 

Amaranthar

Torval said:

Raph has arguably failed at a few projects and attempts so I'm not sure where idea that he thinks he's some design god comes from.

I think he has ideas and ambitions that he wants to express and create and I think that is what differentiates him from many of his peers. I get the impression from reading his blog and occasional articles that he isn't trying to recreate the past. He is not trying to recreate Dark Age or Ultima Online or Asheron's Call or any of the many other sequels. He seems to have a vision for social interactivity in gaming and pushing design boundaries.

We'll see though. Like I said some of his previous ambitions didn't turn out as hoped. This may not either, but I'm still very interested to see what he tries.

Raph doesn't claim to be a "design god." Where did you get that idea from? 

But he has literally written the book, and done the studies that lead to the logical conclusions of what fun is, and how to achieve social connectivity inside a game world. 

You're right in that it won't be (anything)2. 
It'll be an attempt to move the goal posts in "massively multiplayer online role playing" games based on players being in a world. 
Where things should have gone all along.

Sure it can fail. New enterprise efforts are always subject to risks from all angles. 
At least this one won't be because of it being more of the same old tired design. 

Amaranthar

And I'll add something more here. 
If there's an aspect of MMORPGs that you like, I'm betting that you'll find that game play in Raph's game. 
Just don't expect that that will be the only game play available. 

As far as game play, I think he's going to try to capture as much as possible for as many forms of fun as possible. 
It's the inclusions of "more" that should separate his game from others. 
That means more social interaction game play being available, and more worldly interactions to make the world come alive and be more fun to run around in. 

The only thing I can think of that he might give up is the extremely unrealistic power gaps. But that has nothing to do with game play, rather it harms it by excessively limiting players to zoned content by level. 
Growth (as opposed to levelling) can come in many forms and I expect something that looks more like Skill Based, maybe tied to Classes though, because he's talked about the pros and cons in all of that. 

Wizardry

Well painting a nice picture of his skills doesn't really or at all equate to building a great game or even a good one.

I feel like there are thousands of really skilled people in this business,the problem is nobody has a creative mind to put it all together.
OR maybe they do have the ability but comes back to the same old problem,the objective is PROFIT so if that means cutting corners and NOT doing their best work,that is what will happen.

I have been around gaming for sooooo long i can spot the smallest of details that tells me immediately if there is hope or not.
So you want some of those subtle dead giveaways?

1 markers over npc heads
2 somersaults "dead giveaway the team is just copying everyone else on this current trend.
3 action combat in a rpg..does NOT work,well it works but does not make for the best possible rpg combat.
4 Dailies
5 Instances
6 too much focus on end game
7 Levels are unimportant and fly by in mere minutes.
8MMORPG that plays like a solo game.I want to make something clear,i am not totally against soloing in a mmo but there is a way to do it and should NOT be a main focus until the game is aged and ready for QOL additions/changes.
I could go on an ,i spot little things like all the time,i can see where a game is going,how the developer or lead thinks and i draw up an end conclusion on weather the game has any chance of being something i would play.

Perhaps the most important factor of all?Gaming is no longer in it's infancy,we have MANY games already in our portfolio,we have years worth of gaming already at our fingertips without having to spend a single dime.So devs in 2020 and onwards really NEED to earn their keep,we should not need to BUY any half assed games anymore.

Wizardry

There is a reason my first mmorpg to really call home was FFXI,i never thought any of the previous work by devs was all that great.So i spent most of my early years playing shooters,i mean how can you screw up a shooter right?

The Ultima's and EQ1's DAOC what is that Microsoft game geesh so bad i forget the title,none of them impressed me at all.Point being the Koster's,Chris Robert's,Blizzard execs.leads,Lord british,Smedley ,NONE ofthem had me thinking great things woudl come.
It wasn't until FFXI that i saw some truly creative ideas and industry FIRSTS that gave me hope things were beginning to light up.
NOPE,instead we get Wow a mmorpg that didn't even have housing,GW a lobby game,EQ2 an identical design to WOW"go figure,somebody was definitely spying on the other".
The industry just went full STALE,designs that were LESS creative,LESS immersive and did not even TRY to make a true realistic world.All we get are ZONES and mobs jotted down just so we had something to tie quests to.Then the definition of a QUEST by dev standards is a joke,i didn't know going to get a loaf of bread was a QUEST.
So after 15 STALE BORING years,you honestly THINK this Koster dude has his head on right?

Amaranthar

Wizardry said:

There is a reason my first mmorpg to really call home was FFXI,i never thought any of the previous work by devs was all that great.So i spent most of my early years playing shooters,i mean how can you screw up a shooter right?

The Ultima's and EQ1's DAOC what is that Microsoft game geesh so bad i forget the title,none of them impressed me at all.Point being the Koster's,Chris Robert's,Blizzard execs.leads,Lord british,Smedley ,NONE ofthem had me thinking great things woudl come.
It wasn't until FFXI that i saw some truly creative ideas and industry FIRSTS that gave me hope things were beginning to light up.
NOPE,instead we get Wow a mmorpg that didn't even have housing,GW a lobby game,EQ2 an identical design to WOW"go figure,somebody was definitely spying on the other".
The industry just went full STALE,designs that were LESS creative,LESS immersive and did not even TRY to make a true realistic world.All we get are ZONES and mobs jotted down just so we had something to tie quests to.Then the definition of a QUEST by dev standards is a joke,i didn't know going to get a loaf of bread was a QUEST.
So after 15 STALE BORING years,you honestly THINK this Koster dude has his head on right?

Yes. he's always had his head on straight. 

Amaranthar

Torval said:

Amaranthar said:

Torval said:

Raph has arguably failed at a few projects and attempts so I'm not sure where idea that he thinks he's some design god comes from.

I think he has ideas and ambitions that he wants to express and create and I think that is what differentiates him from many of his peers. I get the impression from reading his blog and occasional articles that he isn't trying to recreate the past. He is not trying to recreate Dark Age or Ultima Online or Asheron's Call or any of the many other sequels. He seems to have a vision for social interactivity in gaming and pushing design boundaries.

We'll see though. Like I said some of his previous ambitions didn't turn out as hoped. This may not either, but I'm still very interested to see what he tries.

Raph doesn't claim to be a "design god." Where did you get that idea from? 

But he has literally written the book, and done the studies that lead to the logical conclusions of what fun is, and how to achieve social connectivity inside a game world. 

You're right in that it won't be (anything)2. 
It'll be an attempt to move the goal posts in "massively multiplayer online role playing" games based on players being in a world. 
Where things should have gone all along.

Sure it can fail. New enterprise efforts are always subject to risks from all angles. 
At least this one won't be because of it being more of the same old tired design. 

Some other posts in the thread implied he carried on like a "design god". I disagreed.

Ahh, I see. I misunderstood you. Apologies. 

BruceYee

Notice quite a few mobile hires on that page.. When you hire people with past experience in mobile isn't it usually cause you're gonna make a mobile game? Also, that fellow right next to Koster looks like a money man.. is he the money man? Koster could just be the guy they paid to be the figurehead for the company? Maybe they're gonna try to peddle a mobile/pc mmo on us and as long as Koster is involved people will believe in the project? The guy has to pay bills like the rest of us...right?

I also did not see a single SOE or Trion hire on that page unless I missed it? Wasn't Hartsman working with him on this project?

Amaranthar

BruceYee said:

Notice quite a few mobile hires on that page.. When you hire people with past experience in mobile isn't it usually cause you're gonna make a mobile game? Also, that fellow right next to Koster looks like a money man.. is he the money man? Koster could just be the guy they paid to be the figurehead for the company? Maybe they're gonna try to peddle a mobile/pc mmo on us and as long as Koster is involved people will believe in the project? The guy has to pay bills like the rest of us...right?

I also did not see a single SOE or Trion hire on that page unless I missed it? Wasn't Hartsman working with him on this project?

If you read through the list, I think you'll find that these folks are focused on art and animation and the technical tools side of things. 
That makes sense for the early stages, doesn't it? 
Building the engine? 

Don't know about Hartsman. 

Raph

When you hire people with past experience in mobile isn't it usually cause you're gonna make a mobile game?

Quite a lot of the team came from AAA, went to mobile or social, and has come back. I see that as a strength: it means that they have a better grasp on how to make something accessible and easy to get into, cutting away a lot of the heavy cruft and long grindy session stuff from MMOs.

We aren't making a casual game, but there are a lot of lessons from casual play, especially if you're interested in something that fits into the modern world, where getting long uninterrupted sessions coordinated with your friends can be hard.

that fellow right next to Koster looks like a money man

The guy next to me handles business side things. But he also is a game designer of long standing, including co-designing Paranoia.

I also did not see a single SOE or Trion hire on that page unless I missed it? Wasn't Hartsman working with him on this project?

Our art director is formerly from SOE (H1Z1, Planetside 2, and DCUO, among others). We have others too.

Scott Hartsman is a company advisor, not on the team day to day.

I hope this project is not heading in the "second life" direction.

It's not. It is a sandbox MMORPG.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

AlBQuirky

Amaranthar said:

Torval said:

Raph has arguably failed at a few projects and attempts so I'm not sure where idea that he thinks he's some design god comes from.

I think he has ideas and ambitions that he wants to express and create and I think that is what differentiates him from many of his peers. I get the impression from reading his blog and occasional articles that he isn't trying to recreate the past. He is not trying to recreate Dark Age or Ultima Online or Asheron's Call or any of the many other sequels. He seems to have a vision for social interactivity in gaming and pushing design boundaries.

We'll see though. Like I said some of his previous ambitions didn't turn out as hoped. This may not either, but I'm still very interested to see what he tries.

Raph doesn't claim to be a "design god." Where did you get that idea from? 

But he has literally written the book, and done the studies that lead to the logical conclusions of what fun is, and how to achieve social connectivity inside a game world. 

You're right in that it won't be (anything)2. 
It'll be an attempt to move the goal posts in "massively multiplayer online role playing" games based on players being in a world. 
Where things should have gone all along.

Sure it can fail. New enterprise efforts are always subject to risks from all angles. 
At least this one won't be because of it being more of the same old tired design. 

"Fun" as Raph sees it. I agree with many of his ideas, disagree with many others. One person can NOT make one definition of "fun for everyone."

His title of "Design God" is not self-proclaimed, but rather "laid upon" by fans.

Amaranthar

AlBQuirky said:

Amaranthar said:

Torval said:

Raph has arguably failed at a few projects and attempts so I'm not sure where idea that he thinks he's some design god comes from.

I think he has ideas and ambitions that he wants to express and create and I think that is what differentiates him from many of his peers. I get the impression from reading his blog and occasional articles that he isn't trying to recreate the past. He is not trying to recreate Dark Age or Ultima Online or Asheron's Call or any of the many other sequels. He seems to have a vision for social interactivity in gaming and pushing design boundaries.

We'll see though. Like I said some of his previous ambitions didn't turn out as hoped. This may not either, but I'm still very interested to see what he tries.

Raph doesn't claim to be a "design god." Where did you get that idea from? 

But he has literally written the book, and done the studies that lead to the logical conclusions of what fun is, and how to achieve social connectivity inside a game world. 

You're right in that it won't be (anything)2. 
It'll be an attempt to move the goal posts in "massively multiplayer online role playing" games based on players being in a world. 
Where things should have gone all along.

Sure it can fail. New enterprise efforts are always subject to risks from all angles. 
At least this one won't be because of it being more of the same old tired design. 

"Fun" as Raph sees it. I agree with many of his ideas, disagree with many others. One person can NOT make one definition of "fun for everyone."

His title of "Design God" is not self-proclaimed, but rather "laid upon" by fans.

It's not "one definition" of fun. I don't think I said that. 
It's taking all the things various gamers think is fun and putting it all in one game. 

I'm sure "all" is an overstatement. Some things just don't fit with others. 
"Wide Open PvP", classic example. 
I see one of Raph's people has "Arena" design experience, BTW. What that may mean is uncertain. But with Raph's background and thinking, and statements too, I'm expecting a combination of Guild Warfare (with alliances) and "Floating Arena Wars", if that makes sense. At least that sounds like a good PvP way to go to me. 

AlBQuirky

Amaranthar said:

AlBQuirky said:

Amaranthar said:

Torval said:

Raph has arguably failed at a few projects and attempts so I'm not sure where idea that he thinks he's some design god comes from.

I think he has ideas and ambitions that he wants to express and create and I think that is what differentiates him from many of his peers. I get the impression from reading his blog and occasional articles that he isn't trying to recreate the past. He is not trying to recreate Dark Age or Ultima Online or Asheron's Call or any of the many other sequels. He seems to have a vision for social interactivity in gaming and pushing design boundaries.

We'll see though. Like I said some of his previous ambitions didn't turn out as hoped. This may not either, but I'm still very interested to see what he tries.

Raph doesn't claim to be a "design god." Where did you get that idea from? 

But he has literally written the book, and done the studies that lead to the logical conclusions of what fun is, and how to achieve social connectivity inside a game world. 

You're right in that it won't be (anything)2. 
It'll be an attempt to move the goal posts in "massively multiplayer online role playing" games based on players being in a world. 
Where things should have gone all along.

Sure it can fail. New enterprise efforts are always subject to risks from all angles. 
At least this one won't be because of it being more of the same old tired design. 

"Fun" as Raph sees it. I agree with many of his ideas, disagree with many others. One person can NOT make one definition of "fun for everyone."

His title of "Design God" is not self-proclaimed, but rather "laid upon" by fans.

It's not "one definition" of fun. I don't think I said that. 
It's taking all the things various gamers think is fun and putting it all in one game. 

I'm sure "all" is an overstatement. Some things just don't fit with others. 
"Wide Open PvP", classic example. 
I see one of Raph's people has "Arena" design experience, BTW. What that may mean is uncertain. But with Raph's background and thinking, and statements too, I'm expecting a combination of Guild Warfare (with alliances) and "Floating Arena Wars", if that makes sense. At least that sounds like a good PvP way to go to me. 

What I bolded/italicized in your other post was "inferring a singular fun."

"He wrote the book on fun."

I really hope Raph does get another game going. I hope it succeeds. I just don't "wet my pants" simply because it is Raph.