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Dual Universe Bans Marketplace Thieves - Community Reacts | MMORPG.com

SystemSystem Member UncommonPosts: 5,023
edited October 22 in News & Features Discussion

imageDual Universe Bans Marketplace Thieves - Community Reacts | MMORPG.com

In a recent reddit post, players have stolen a marketplace in Dual Universe. No, not just the items in the marketplace, but the entirety of the marketplace as a whole. The development team has responded in several ways, but to much of the dismay of the players, they have also banned the players involved.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • TillerTiller Member EpicPosts: 8,984
    edited October 22
    They should actually be asking players to try and break the game so they can fix this stuff now. I fee if they needed to give anything perhaps a warning is necessary for this round; beyond that a perma-ban seems a little excessive for an alpha. If anything they wanted testing, they got testing.
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  • mrputtsmrputts Member UncommonPosts: 277
    edited October 23
    So I have no idea what this game is or whether it is in beta or not. I am going to assume that it is for the remainder of the post.


    Beta is first and foremost about breaking shit. Find the F ups in what the devs have made. If it was not 3rd party tools that were used. It is all technically within the bounds of the game. So no they should not be banned for doing their role as beta testers.


    Now with the line of communication. Reddit whether Devs like it or not is a line of communication among players. I would argue it is the largest line. Even if it is unofficial it should not make it illegitimate. Because they did "Brag" about it that is a form of letting the community know what happened this is not hiding to exploit at launch. They are there to find issues after all. Who cares if they were having a little fun with it. They are getting free testers. These are not paid employees.

    So IMHO I feel like the Devs are in the wrong. It should not matter if it was not communicated properly. It was communicated.

    I feel this speaks to a larger issue about how Devs view Beta. The culture around it needs to change for Free Publicity, back to looking for bugs and exploits in a 90%+ feature complete product that is looking to fix everything before launch.
    Post edited by mrputts on
    XodicNyghthowlerMoariNKDem1urgeonemeg

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  • anemoanemo Member RarePosts: 1,898
    It's mostly impressive that it took till Monday till someone decided to actually do something.   They moved the markets on Friday, players let the devs know that Friday and into Saturday...   And it wasn't till Monday that someone in a Sandbox game decided to abuse a bug as simple as entering build mode, in a voxel building game.
    Gdemami

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  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,637
    anemo said:
    It's mostly impressive that it took till Monday till someone decided to actually do something.   They moved the markets on Friday, players let the devs know that Friday and into Saturday...   And it wasn't till Monday that someone in a Sandbox game decided to abuse a bug as simple as entering build mode, in a voxel building game.
    Well, it is being developed by a french company, a country not known for their long working hours, likely everyone had gone home for the weekend.


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  • timeraidertimeraider Member UncommonPosts: 837
    I think the devs should be ashamed. THEY fuck something up, players simply use what is possible within the game of the developers (no hacks, cheats etc.) and then the devs blame the players and ban them?
    Zero respect for these devs.
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  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,318
    mrputts said:
     Who cares if they were having a little fun with it. 
    ...other testers? Devs that then must fix the mess caused by bug exploitation? Staff/devs that has to go through investigation of said exploit? etc.

    Lots of dev wasted time there because some people can't behave. Maintaining public test server does not come free.
    KyleranTacticalZombehSandmanjwircaddictsNyghthowlerReverielle
  • BruceYeeBruceYee Member EpicPosts: 2,029
    I think the devs should be ashamed. THEY fuck something up, players simply use what is possible within the game of the developers (no hacks, cheats etc.) and then the devs blame the players and ban them?
    Zero respect for these devs.

    And they payed $30 or more to the company too...

    The game is in beta with a limited number of people playing so what's the big deal? Imagine if this happened when the game had fully launched + 1 year in...

    Reimburse the people who lost stuff, thank the people who did this, fix the problem and move on. If anything it was free publicity.

    A little reddit or social media boasting is the norm in 2020 just look at that Albion guild thief not so long ago. It provides good entertainment and points out flaws in both game and human design.

    Yes it sux they made the devs look like fools but rise above that and "be most excellent to each other".
    KyleranXodicTorvalSandmanjwircaddicts
  • ScarranScarran Member UncommonPosts: 102
    The ban is a bit of an overreaction and if I was on the development team I would want people to break the game as severe as this during beta so it can be fixed.

    All this ban does is make current players/testers hesitant on reporting future exploits for fear of receiving the ban hammer. Don't get me wrong, could they have gone about reporting it better? Yes. But the developers have to take a look at the other side of the coin, why did they do it this way?

    Was it done because there is a lack of exploit reporting tools/methods available to players?
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,318
    edited October 22
    Scarran said:
    All this ban does is make current players/testers hesitant on reporting future exploits for fear of receiving the ban hammer. 
    There is a very clear line between reporting a bug and exploiting it.

    The ban was issued for exploitation of the bug, not miscommunicating it.

    They knew they are crossing the line - they even left the message "Please no ban", yet they marched forward.

    You raep what you sow.
    SovrathDairiosHerithiusTacticalZombehKyleranSandmanjwircaddictstzervoReverielle
  • DairiosDairios Member UncommonPosts: 18

    Gdemami said:


    Scarran said:

    All this ban does is make current players/testers hesitant on reporting future exploits for fear of receiving the ban hammer. 


    There is a very clear line between reporting a bug and exploiting it.

    The ban was issued for exploitation of the bug, not miscommunicating it.

    They knew they are crossing the line - they even left the message "Please no ban", yet they marched forward.

    You raep what you sow.



    This. Its one thing to find a bug and report it, its another to knowingly take advantage of the bug/exploit for whatever personal reasons. Report the bug, but don't abuse it. It's a very simple concept. What possible advantage or gains could you get from abusing an exploit and then gloating about it on reddit?
    Kyleranircaddicts
  • XodicXodic Member EpicPosts: 1,175
    I bet they're already working on implementing a process or changing the system to prevent this from happening again. Sounds like they got their money's worth from hiring those testers, not sure why they fired them... 

    If this wasn't "abused", would they have known of the design's critical flaw?
    Perhaps not, they most likely would have simply turned off permissions and went about their day having solved what they seen as the problem while duplicating the same mistake over and over again.

    Steve McConnell - The Software Jesus

    "Testing's goal runs counter to the goals of other development activities. The goal is to find errors. A successful test is one that breaks software. The goal of every other development activity is to prevent errors and keep the software from breaking."

    "You must hope to find errors in your code. Such a hope might seem like an unnatural act, but you should hope that it's you that finds the errors and not someone else."

    The real problem is this half-in half-out testing environment we see today. They sell access and treat you as players, or testers, based on the general mood of the day. If it were, as they claim, a testing environment, then there is no such thing as abusing a flaw. It hurts no one, all of the other testers should be trying to do the same thing. This is where the conflict of interest happens. In this context all of the other testers aren't testers at all, they're players... So the "abuse" did cause harm with "players" losing their market items, and the developers losing the market due to bad implementation of it in the first place.

    Remove their access to testing if you don't think they can contribute, but a permanent ban even after the game goes live is something I don't agree with at all. 
    SovrathGdemamiSharne
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 28,953
    Scarran said:
    The ban is a bit of an overreaction and if I was on the development team I would want people to break the game as severe as this during beta so it can be fixed.

    All this ban does is make current players/testers hesitant on reporting future exploits for fear of receiving the ban hammer. Don't get me wrong, could they have gone about reporting it better? Yes. But the developers have to take a look at the other side of the coin, why did they do it this way?

    Was it done because there is a lack of exploit reporting tools/methods available to players?

    They do want people to break the game.

    what they then want is to report breaking the game.

    You see....

    They know how to break the game ... they just don't know how to report the beak ...



  • NanbinoNanbino Member UncommonPosts: 163
    edited October 23
    This company just got my boycott. This is what gamers are supposed to do. Before gaming went into the toilet, we were paid to find exploits like this, the fact it came out naturally is a gift. Free gift. The real issue is the devs too stupid to know how to change it. Or not enough time or money. Or lazy.
    reminds me of just about every Chinese mmorpg I play. We find an exploit like chain ganks, or holes in dungeon walls..
    And instead of patching it... They say "don't do it" and ban people... Usually with no investigation just rumors.

    Then there's Russia, you mention a bug in forums, your banned lol

    Sad really. Just shows despite claims to be sand box, and realistic, and intuitive, they destroy community efforts. Thevreason we are nor larping or playing Dnd is because the digital format requires fun times picking away at its firework. It's like in wow when we were so involved in every nook a'd cranny we'd find the lamp in village that makes you fall through map... The mountain you climb to jump glitch a ledge and get into a dungeon faster. Etc.
    Fun. Engaging. Dedicated to your product. Banning people for creativity sounds as communist as gets, cross fingers this isn't a USA based game, but now a days... No surprise.
    GdemamiKyleran
  • evolgrinzevolgrinz Member UncommonPosts: 143
    So the developers screwed up, the players found the bug and then get banned for it?
    Well, guess I won't be playing this game if that is the mentality of the developers.
    GdemamiWylfircaddictsKyleranIselin
  • SharneSharne Member UncommonPosts: 229
    edited October 23
    My understanding of the issue is that the market was created by essentially copying the assets from another market but that the permissions for all the assets were set to editable whereas they should have been locked.

    So either their tools/utilities to do this haven't been tested properly or they are manually copying assets and it was human error, either way the devs screwed up to create the issue in the first place. If its a manual copy then this should be done using a tool/utility to mitigate any chances of human error and if its a tool/utility, it clearly hasn't been tested.

    I agree with the 'reap what you sow' line I really do, especially given that they exploited this issue to the nth degree but a lifetime ban seems a tad too much for me, given the server will be wiped at the end of beta anyway, it would make more sense to just ban them from the rest of the beta.

    Saying that, I would be tempted to give them a virtual slap and keep them in the paid beta testing as they clearly think outside of the box.

    Its all very well quoting lines such as 'Let us be clear, we will not tolerate this kind of behaviour during any phase of the development of Dual Universe' but they really really don't want to go live and then find world breaking issues which shouldn't at this point of the development cycle exist anyway.

    This is why I really don't think this game is ready for a paid beta, issues such as these really shouldn't exist in this phase of the development, if they have done any meaningful destruction testing (which clearly they haven't) they would have already found and resolved the issue.

  • KirtisKirtis Member UncommonPosts: 34
    edited October 23
    I am participating in closed early beta test of another game and one of developers of that game directly said: "break everything, you can! And if you can't break it, find the way to break it!" - that is the attitude of game developer who wants his game to be polished and made ready for release. It does not matter where the information has been released - NDA has been lifted off from DU a while ago so they have full right to discuss and announce information about the game where ever they want.

    I was following the development of DU for a while, but now I am glad I did not give them my money as they not only sell access to the testing for money (which they should give for free and be thankful that someone tests their product and does not ask salary for that), but even dare to ban people who really did what they were meant to do and spent their own money to support their game development... I would definitely sue NQ if I would be among those whom they banned and NQ would loose in those disputes 100%. And even now they lost more valuable thing - they lost respect. Money can be lost and earned quite easy, but reputation loss won't be restored that fast and it will have long lasting consequences.
    GdemamiMendel
  • mrputtsmrputts Member UncommonPosts: 277

    Gdemami said:


    Scarran said:

    All this ban does is make current players/testers hesitant on reporting future exploits for fear of receiving the ban hammer. 


    There is a very clear line between reporting a bug and exploiting it.

    The ban was issued for exploitation of the bug, not miscommunicating it.

    They knew they are crossing the line - they even left the message "Please no ban", yet they marched forward.

    You raep what you sow.



    I don't know if I would personally call this exploiting.

    ex·ploit
    verb
    /ikˈsploit/
    make full use of and derive benefit from (a resource).


    I don't believe it would fall under the text book definition of exploit. Doing it once and Posting about it is not making full use, nor is it really deriving benefit.

    I would argue posting it on reddit is a loose form of reporting. Especially if they did try to reach the devs like the poster claims.

    Remember this is Beta testing. Not a Live Product
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  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 7,422
    edited October 23
    Well a small ban and slap on the wrist would have been enough. After all they found an important exploit. Well they did go to town with the discovery but the punishment does not fit in my opinion.
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  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,318
    edited October 23
    mrputts said:
    I would argue posting it on reddit is a loose form of reporting. 
    ...and you would lose your argument again.

    What they did is a text book example of bug exploitation and neither you report bugs via channels others than instructed by developers

    Your perception on bug hunting is entirely fucked up.
    Post edited by Gdemami on
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  • SharneSharne Member UncommonPosts: 229

    Gdemami said:


    mrputts said:

    I would argue posting it on reddit is a loose form of reporting. 


    ...and you would lose your argument again.

    What they did is a text book example of bug exploitation and neither you report bugs via channels others than instructed by developers

    Your perception on bug hunting is entirely fucked up.



    Apparently (according the official forum post) they did log the issue and whilst I do believe they knew what they were doing, I would argue that there is no such things as an exploit during the testing phase of a software product, the whole point is to find bugs and exploit them and the ramifications of them.

    Unless what everyone is actually paying for is early access and not testing?
    GdemamimaskedweaselircaddictsKylerantzervo
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,389
    edited October 23
    mrputts said:

    Gdemami said:


    Scarran said:

    All this ban does is make current players/testers hesitant on reporting future exploits for fear of receiving the ban hammer. 


    There is a very clear line between reporting a bug and exploiting it.

    The ban was issued for exploitation of the bug, not miscommunicating it.

    They knew they are crossing the line - they even left the message "Please no ban", yet they marched forward.

    You raep what you sow.



    I don't know if I would personally call this exploiting.

    ex·ploit
    verb
    /ikˈsploit/
    make full use of and derive benefit from (a resource).


    I don't believe it would fall under the text book definition of exploit. Doing it once and Posting about it is not making full use, nor is it really deriving benefit.

    I would argue posting it on reddit is a loose form of reporting. Especially if they did try to reach the devs like the poster claims.

    Remember this is Beta testing. Not a Live Product
    Are players currently paying a sub to play?  I know my free beta key came with 3 months sub time but if people are paying for this then it’s at least in some ways a live product.
    Post edited by Slapshot1188 on
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  • SharneSharne Member UncommonPosts: 229



    mrputts said:



    Gdemami said:




    Scarran said:


    All this ban does is make current players/testers hesitant on reporting future exploits for fear of receiving the ban hammer. 




    There is a very clear line between reporting a bug and exploiting it.

    The ban was issued for exploitation of the bug, not miscommunicating it.

    They knew they are crossing the line - they even left the message "Please no ban", yet they marched forward.

    You raep what you sow.






    I don't know if I would personally call this exploiting.



    ex·ploit

    verb

    /ikˈsploit/

    make full use of and derive benefit from (a resource).





    I don't believe it would fall under the text book definition of exploit. Doing it once and Posting about it is not making full use, nor is it really deriving benefit.



    I would argue posting it on reddit is a loose form of reporting. Especially if they did try to reach the devs like the poster claims.



    Remember this is Beta testing. Not a Live Product


    Are players currently paying a sub to play?  I know my free beta key came with 3 months sub time but if people are paying for this then it’s at least in some ways a love product.



    According to the website, you can join the beta now for £6.49 per month, so I guess some are paying to be in beta.
    tzervo
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,318
    edited October 23
    Sharne said:
    I would argue..
    There is your problem - it's non-arguable. What you think about the rules is irrelevant.

    You either follows the rules or you don't, and in that case there is a good chance you will be banned, and rightfully so.
    SandmanjwKyleranAsm0deus
  • WylfWylf Member UncommonPosts: 375

    evolgrinz said:

    So the developers screwed up, the players found the bug and then get banned for it?

    Well, guess I won't be playing this game if that is the mentality of the developers.



    Agree, one more game not worth playing.
    GdemamiKyleran
  • SandmanjwSandmanjw Member UncommonPosts: 300
    More entitled idjits here than usual.

    This was a textbook reason for a ban, beta or not. They took the whole building that people could use to play the game. Not only making the dev's have to fix everything but stopped all the other players that wanted/needed to use it.

    This goes so far passed the point of an obvious exploit that will affect the whole game that should not be used, it is not even questionable.

    Anyone that thinks otherwise, i am sure the Dev's thank you for NOT being in their game, you would cause more problems than you would be worth.

    Thinking it is ok to cause damage and monetary loss and still get to play and have fun....idiots.



    GdemamiircaddictsKyleranVinterkrigReverielle
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