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Pantheon's producer, Ben Dean interviewed

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Comments

  • TwoTubesTwoTubes Member UncommonPosts: 324
    Ya, I guess that depends on your point of view. 

    If its going to end up something completely different than what has been advertised I would just rather it fail now so we can move on and look elsewhere.

    I don't need them stringing us along for multiple more years for something that wasnt what we signed up for.

    At this point there have been so many empty promises that I dont expect anything else from VR. They are aware that those of us who know what has been going on feel this way.  They even addressed it in the newsletter when they said:  
    "to those of you whose belief in us has wavered, we hope through our actions we can earn your confidence again. "
    I appreciate them addressing it.  It's time to put up or shut up.

    GdemamiBrainygoldwheat
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 14,467
    Ben could clear this up very easily.  He could simply say:  We have X funding currently and we forecast it will take us between y & z budget to complete in a best case/worst case scenario.

    Won’t say that though.  That’s not Devspeak.
    GdemamiBrainyTalmiengoldwheatWellspring

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 9,609
    Ben could clear this up very easily.  He could simply say:  We have X funding currently and we forecast it will take us between y & z budget to complete in a best case/worst case scenario.

    Won’t say that though.  That’s not Devspeak.
    Ben didn't give dates but what you say he wouldn't say is what he did say. X = Low funding. Y & Z = a long time. Conclusions, we need more funding or this game will take to long to be relevant. 
    Brainy
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 14,467
    Nanfoodle said:
    Ben could clear this up very easily.  He could simply say:  We have X funding currently and we forecast it will take us between y & z budget to complete in a best case/worst case scenario.

    Won’t say that though.  That’s not Devspeak.
    Ben didn't give dates but what you say he wouldn't say is what he did say. X = Low funding. Y & Z = a long time. Conclusions, we need more funding or this game will take to long to be relevant. 
    It’s not at all the same thing.  Let me ask you this way: He is saying that he has enough funding right now to literally pay the staff for many years (the long time). But he doesn’t have the money to hire more people today?  

    I find that highly questionable.  Yes there are some scenarios where it can be true, but most are very unlikely.  

    No, I think the most likely situation is that they believe they have an investor that will swoop in and this is just to soften the news so it seems like a positive and not a negative.

    The fun part of this is that eventually we will know because either there will be a big announcement a few months from now (or sooner) or they will fade to slow burn development and we won’t hear much for years.

    I’m hoping they have an investor and get this thing out within 2 years.  We will see.

    Gdemamigoldwheat

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • TwoTubesTwoTubes Member UncommonPosts: 324

    The fun part of this is that eventually we will know because either there will be a big announcement a few months from now (or sooner) or they will fade to slow burn development and we won’t hear much for years.


    Theyve been in slow burn development from the beginning and we are all still here.  They can continue milking it and stringing people along if they want to.

    If the game gets released there is no way it will be the original vision.  Its basically over already regardless.  This was supposed to be different.  It wont be.
    goldwheatGdemami
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 6,553
    YashaX said:
    TwoTubes said:
    All series A funding did was allow them to progress into prealpha.  It has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

    The type of "Angel investers" they have mentioned in the past have not provided anywhere close to the investment that is needed.

    The current discussion in the community is that VR might be close to a deal with an outside publisher and this newsletter was a way to soften the blow when the official announcement comes.  Many people will see someone else having that much influence as a negative. 

    Whatever happens, the point remains that the financial situation talked about in the october newsletter wasn't new info to anyone following closely.  We all knew they would need a major source of funding for it to release...and they still do.
    At this point in time, and this applies to pretty much all these failing crowdfunded mmos, I think the backers should actually welcome an investor taking complete control of the game. That way you might at least get something published.

    Although it seems to me that this whole exercise in crowdfunded mmos is more about sustaining the pipe dream rather than actually making (and finishing) a game. 
    I tend to agree, that crowdfunding as taught us that you really can't use that system as the bases of building a large scale game. It sounds good on paper, like check boxing a bunch of features in an MMO.

    But the reality is, it is a better way to drum up interest, or a last push to  completion, better used to get a game from a working Alpha to Launch.


    Gdemami
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

    After 4 years, I have finally added someone to my Ignore List, as it turns out, some people are in fact totally irredeemable to engage with. Have fun stalking someone else.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 39,253
    Ungood said:
    YashaX said:
    TwoTubes said:
    All series A funding did was allow them to progress into prealpha.  It has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

    The type of "Angel investers" they have mentioned in the past have not provided anywhere close to the investment that is needed.

    The current discussion in the community is that VR might be close to a deal with an outside publisher and this newsletter was a way to soften the blow when the official announcement comes.  Many people will see someone else having that much influence as a negative. 

    Whatever happens, the point remains that the financial situation talked about in the october newsletter wasn't new info to anyone following closely.  We all knew they would need a major source of funding for it to release...and they still do.
    At this point in time, and this applies to pretty much all these failing crowdfunded mmos, I think the backers should actually welcome an investor taking complete control of the game. That way you might at least get something published.

    Although it seems to me that this whole exercise in crowdfunded mmos is more about sustaining the pipe dream rather than actually making (and finishing) a game. 
    I tend to agree, that crowdfunding as taught us that you really can't use that system as the bases of building a large scale game. It sounds good on paper, like check boxing a bunch of features in an MMO.

    But the reality is, it is a better way to drum up interest, or a last push to  completion, better used to get a game from a working Alpha to Launch.


    When it comes to building large scale games such as MMORPGs I don't feel crowdfunding should play any part.

    These endeavors require large scale funding which is well established from the start in order to hire the proper resources in order to work towards a reasonable delivery plan, which likely is around five to eight years on average.

    If it takes a good $25M or more to reach working alpha, what good is the piddly little amounts most crowd funding efforts ask for.

    Now if a crowd funding campaign went out and asked for $10M plus to "finish" the development it might make some sense, but an extra couple of hundred thousand, no, that's not enough cash to keep a decent sized team stocked up on snacks and drinks for a year.


    TorvalGdemami

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing ESO - Blackwood at the moment.

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  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 6,553
    Kyleran said:
    Ungood said:
    YashaX said:
    TwoTubes said:
    All series A funding did was allow them to progress into prealpha.  It has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

    The type of "Angel investers" they have mentioned in the past have not provided anywhere close to the investment that is needed.

    The current discussion in the community is that VR might be close to a deal with an outside publisher and this newsletter was a way to soften the blow when the official announcement comes.  Many people will see someone else having that much influence as a negative. 

    Whatever happens, the point remains that the financial situation talked about in the october newsletter wasn't new info to anyone following closely.  We all knew they would need a major source of funding for it to release...and they still do.
    At this point in time, and this applies to pretty much all these failing crowdfunded mmos, I think the backers should actually welcome an investor taking complete control of the game. That way you might at least get something published.

    Although it seems to me that this whole exercise in crowdfunded mmos is more about sustaining the pipe dream rather than actually making (and finishing) a game. 
    I tend to agree, that crowdfunding as taught us that you really can't use that system as the bases of building a large scale game. It sounds good on paper, like check boxing a bunch of features in an MMO.

    But the reality is, it is a better way to drum up interest, or a last push to  completion, better used to get a game from a working Alpha to Launch.


    When it comes to building large scale games such as MMORPGs I don't feel crowdfunding should play any part.

    These endeavors require large scale funding which is well established from the start in order to hire the proper resources in order to work towards a reasonable delivery plan, which likely is around five to eight years on average.

    If it takes a good $25M or more to reach working alpha, what good is the piddly little amounts most crowd funding efforts ask for.

    Now if a crowd funding campaign went out and asked for $10M plus to "finish" the development it might make some sense, but an extra couple of hundred thousand, no, that's not enough cash to keep a decent sized team stocked up on snacks and drinks for a year.


    While I agree, it is also a great way to build pre-launch interest. Using it as a platform to pander off a paid beta access, and push a larger purchase box price, while giving the players the illusion of being a backer, would be the perfect platform for a crowd fund situation. 

    Using it to fund the game from start to end.. well we have seen what a train wreck that has shown itself to be.
    Gdemami
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

    After 4 years, I have finally added someone to my Ignore List, as it turns out, some people are in fact totally irredeemable to engage with. Have fun stalking someone else.
  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 9,609
    Nanfoodle said:
    Ben could clear this up very easily.  He could simply say:  We have X funding currently and we forecast it will take us between y & z budget to complete in a best case/worst case scenario.

    Won’t say that though.  That’s not Devspeak.
    Ben didn't give dates but what you say he wouldn't say is what he did say. X = Low funding. Y & Z = a long time. Conclusions, we need more funding or this game will take to long to be relevant. 
    It’s not at all the same thing.  Let me ask you this way: He is saying that he has enough funding right now to literally pay the staff for many years (the long time). But he doesn’t have the money to hire more people today?  

    I find that highly questionable.  Yes there are some scenarios where it can be true, but most are very unlikely.  

    No, I think the most likely situation is that they believe they have an investor that will swoop in and this is just to soften the news so it seems like a positive and not a negative.

    The fun part of this is that eventually we will know because either there will be a big announcement a few months from now (or sooner) or they will fade to slow burn development and we won’t hear much for years.

    I’m hoping they have an investor and get this thing out within 2 years.  We will see.

    In some ways I agree with you, I think their thinking if flawed in what they are getting month to month (People with monthly subs, what angels investors give monthly/yearly + new backers they get) will keep them going at this rate to finish the game but what they may not be counting on is, 2-3 years from now, these backers may get fatigued and stop giving money. Then wells may go dry, unless they find new angel investors.

    As pointed out before, most games fail even if they have the money to finish them. Risk factor for Pantheon is high. I do love an underdog and many do. I will root till they fail or win.   
    Kyleran
  • goldwheatgoldwheat Member UncommonPosts: 66
    Slapshot1188 said:
    It’s not at all the same thing.  Let me ask you this way: He is saying that he has enough funding right now to literally pay the staff for many years (the long time). But he doesn’t have the money to hire more people today?  

    I find that highly questionable. ..
    Yep, that's the same conclusion 30 seconds of critical thought will get you on every claim of "we're fully funded".  Ok, fully funded to what, or when?  How can you have enough money to pay everyone for years, but not enough to hire more staff, when there is definitely overlap, mathematically, for both those values.

    The what: launch.  Ok, then, you have a plan for the features you need to add or cut between now and then.  What are those features?  They have never and will never say.  Does that mean all the continents on the map?  All the zones?  All the quests?  All the NPCs?  All the starting areas, cities, outside zones, dungeons?  All the shared open world competitive content?  All the custom assets, including art, sound/music, models, animation, textures, particle effects, and more?  You're fully funded to complete all of those?

    The when: launch.  Ok, then, you have a plan for the schedule of milestones you need to achieve to reach launch.  What is that schedule?  Again, they have never and will never say.  It doesn't even have to show dates.  Just the timeline of required milestones.  What comes first, what comes next.

    "Fully funded" means nothing coming from VR, because they refuse to qualify or quantify any aspect or context of the statement.  It's their equivalent of saying "we're fine". Doesn't mean anything, and is more likely false than true, if you look only at their history of missed milestones and bad coding practices.

    This is their staff list, today:
    Ben Dean, Ben Walters, Bret DeChristopher, Chris Perkins, Chris Rowan, David Schlow, JN Gerhart, Jared Pullen, Jason Bolton, Jimmy Lane, Kim Morrison, Kurt Habetler, Kyle Olsen, Linda Carlson, Lynn Ashworth, Michael Butler, Robert Crane, Ross Armstrong, Sam Scott, Tim Sullivan, Tim Wathen, Tod Curtis, Tyler Stokes.

    That's 23 full time wages, at say $15/hr, which is far too little, but is double the federal minimum in the USA.
    That means $31.2k x 23 required annually for payroll. $717.6k per year must be in their payroll account.
    How many $100 donations is that from new pledgers, per month? $59,800 a month , $100 per pledge.. that means 598, call it 600 new pledges of $100 are required per month, resulting in 7200 new supporters per year.
    Have you seen 600 new people posting on the official forums, monthly, or on reddit, facebook, twitter, or here?

    That's the minimum required that Ben Dean is claiming they have to continue development indefinitely, from crowdfunding.
    KyleranMendel
  • achesomaachesoma Member RarePosts: 1,518
    TwoTubes said:
    achesoma said:
    TwoTubes said:
    achesoma said:
    Kyleran said:
    achesoma said:
    TwoTubes said:
    You are really bad at reading between the lines and understanding what they are really saying.  Of course they are putting a positive/optimistic spin on things. 
    Taking it at face value without having a greater understanding of the situation based on previous actions shows an unrealistic disconnect.
    For example,  to think that the current pre alpha phase will directly lead to alpha is laughably naive.
    Well don’t keep us in suspense. Tell us what they’re REALLY saying. 
    We're broke and need more cash if we ever hope to deliver the game in this decade.

    See, not so hard right?

    Ben directly states they need partners and publishers to push the game out in a reasonable time frame. How are you defining broke? They still seem to be in production which wouldn't be the case if they're broke.
    This is not new news though.  If you have been following closely from the beginning and arent completely naive you have known the state of things for years.  Without an outside publisher Or angel investor this game isn't coming out.  Many of us discussed this around 2016/17 after they missed the second timeline we were given for alpha/beta. Nothing has changed. 
     
    The only difference is now more people are realizing it and VR is slightly more forthcoming about it (though you still have to be able to understand what they are really saying because of course they are putting a positive spin on it).

    But they already have angel investors and secured series A funding which was only 3 years ago. Are you saying Ben is lying about potential partners/publishers showing interest?
    All series A funding did was allow them to progress into prealpha.  It has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

    The type of "Angel investors" they have mentioned in the past have not provided anywhere close to the investment that is needed.

    The current discussion in the community is that VR might be close to a deal with an outside publisher and this newsletter was a way to soften the blow when the official announcement comes.  Many people will see someone else having that much influence as a negative. 

    Whatever happens, the point remains that the financial situation talked about in the october newsletter wasn't new info to anyone following closely.  We all knew they would need a major source of funding for it to release...and they still do.

     You said without an angel investor and outside publisher this game isn't coming out. Then I said they already have angel investors. So now that "type of angel investor" isn't the same lol. You're moving the goal posts. They have 2 angel investors and one started an investment syndicate. 

    Also, as you mention, they might be close to a publisher deal. So according to your own belief, they are meeting the criteria to launch the game. Ben specifically mentions turning down potential partners that didn't share their philosophy to avoid the "negative influence" as you put it.

    Things can't be that financially dire if VR is still hiring people. Just last year they hired Kyle Olsen (Lead Programmer). And this year they hired Tyler Stokes (Associate Game Designer).
    Kyleran

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 14,467
    achesoma said:

    Things can't be that financially dire if VR is still hiring people. Just last year they hired Kyle Olsen (Lead Programmer). And this year they hired Tyler Stokes (Associate Game Designer).
    CoE was bragging about hiring people (including Sr folks like AshKain) as late as Jan if I recall.  They shut their doors in March.

    Folks can bullshit fans all they want, but burn rate is a relentless foe that doesn't care about spin.

    MendelGdemamiKylerangoldwheat

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

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    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 21,736
    Kyleran said:
    When it comes to building large scale games such as MMORPGs I don't feel crowdfunding should play any part.

    These endeavors require large scale funding which is well established from the start in order to hire the proper resources in order to work towards a reasonable delivery plan, which likely is around five to eight years on average.

    If it takes a good $25M or more to reach working alpha, what good is the piddly little amounts most crowd funding efforts ask for.

    Now if a crowd funding campaign went out and asked for $10M plus to "finish" the development it might make some sense, but an extra couple of hundred thousand, no, that's not enough cash to keep a decent sized team stocked up on snacks and drinks for a year.
    Building on that I'd say these projects require large scale funding with oversight from people who care about how that money is spent and when they'll see an actual revenue return. Star Citizen is exactly why large sums of money alone don't guarantee competent production and project management.

    This is why I think big bad publishing companies are necessary to keep these projects on track. What we're seeing with this crowd-funded batch is just how necessary that oversight really is.

    GdemamigoldwheatBrainy
    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 14,467
    Rhoklaw said:
    Please don't compare Pantheon to Chronicles of Elyria ( That game never had anything to show for itself ) or Star Citizen ( 300 or 500 employees now and $300+ million later and it's still in Alpha? ).

    Pantheon may be moving along slowly, but based on what it has to show for itself, I believe the money is actually being spent on the game, not lining an egotistical visionary's pocket.
    Read the quote and my response.  It is a perfect rebuttal.  Just because a company hired a guy last year and a guy this year does not in any way, shape or form mean that they are financially stable.

    That can be totally true without Pantheon being a total scam.

    I want Pantheon to release.  That doesn't mean that hiring someone last year proves they are financially stable.  At all.

    GdemamigoldwheatBrainy

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • achesomaachesoma Member RarePosts: 1,518
    achesoma said:

    Things can't be that financially dire if VR is still hiring people. Just last year they hired Kyle Olsen (Lead Programmer). And this year they hired Tyler Stokes (Associate Game Designer).
    CoE was bragging about hiring people (including Sr folks like AshKain) as late as Jan if I recall.  They shut their doors in March.

    Folks can bullshit fans all they want, but burn rate is a relentless foe that doesn't care about spin.


    How does another game's failure pertain to Pantheon? When you point to other studios that failed, all I see is that VR is doing something right if they're still going. I'm not familiar with CoE. VR never bragged about hiring people, I'm just pointing out the most recent hires which typically doesn't happen if you don't have the funds.

    Where's the spin? I mean, what actual evidence is there that Ben is lying? I've been following closely for about 3 years now and have yet to catch them in a lie. People were shouting from the rooftops that the game was shutting down during all of 2019 and yet, here it is. People said the game died with Brad and it's been almost a year now but here we are. You call this spin but you or anyone else can't provide concrete evidence.
    Nanfoodle

  • achesomaachesoma Member RarePosts: 1,518
    Kyleran said:
    Ungood said:
    YashaX said:
    TwoTubes said:
    All series A funding did was allow them to progress into prealpha.  It has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

    The type of "Angel investers" they have mentioned in the past have not provided anywhere close to the investment that is needed.

    The current discussion in the community is that VR might be close to a deal with an outside publisher and this newsletter was a way to soften the blow when the official announcement comes.  Many people will see someone else having that much influence as a negative. 

    Whatever happens, the point remains that the financial situation talked about in the october newsletter wasn't new info to anyone following closely.  We all knew they would need a major source of funding for it to release...and they still do.
    At this point in time, and this applies to pretty much all these failing crowdfunded mmos, I think the backers should actually welcome an investor taking complete control of the game. That way you might at least get something published.

    Although it seems to me that this whole exercise in crowdfunded mmos is more about sustaining the pipe dream rather than actually making (and finishing) a game. 
    I tend to agree, that crowdfunding as taught us that you really can't use that system as the bases of building a large scale game. It sounds good on paper, like check boxing a bunch of features in an MMO.

    But the reality is, it is a better way to drum up interest, or a last push to  completion, better used to get a game from a working Alpha to Launch.


    When it comes to building large scale games such as MMORPGs I don't feel crowdfunding should play any part.

    These endeavors require large scale funding which is well established from the start in order to hire the proper resources in order to work towards a reasonable delivery plan, which likely is around five to eight years on average.

    If it takes a good $25M or more to reach working alpha, what good is the piddly little amounts most crowd funding efforts ask for.

    Now if a crowd funding campaign went out and asked for $10M plus to "finish" the development it might make some sense, but an extra couple of hundred thousand, no, that's not enough cash to keep a decent sized team stocked up on snacks and drinks for a year.



    You're just guessing, though. Nobody here has a clue how much money they've obtained from investors, pledges or otherwise. How do you know what they got from pledges is "piddly?"

  • goldwheatgoldwheat Member UncommonPosts: 66
    Because, hopefully, there aren't that many fools in the world that would donate more than a 'piddly' amount to a extremely risky endeavor. 
    GdemamiKyleran[Deleted User]
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 14,467
    achesoma said:
    achesoma said:

    Things can't be that financially dire if VR is still hiring people. Just last year they hired Kyle Olsen (Lead Programmer). And this year they hired Tyler Stokes (Associate Game Designer).
    CoE was bragging about hiring people (including Sr folks like AshKain) as late as Jan if I recall.  They shut their doors in March.

    Folks can bullshit fans all they want, but burn rate is a relentless foe that doesn't care about spin.


    How does another game's failure pertain to Pantheon? When you point to other studios that failed, all I see is that VR is doing something right if they're still going. I'm not familiar with CoE. VR never bragged about hiring people, I'm just pointing out the most recent hires which typically doesn't happen if you don't have the funds.

    Where's the spin? I mean, what actual evidence is there that Ben is lying? I've been following closely for about 3 years now and have yet to catch them in a lie. People were shouting from the rooftops that the game was shutting down during all of 2019 and yet, here it is. People said the game died with Brad and it's been almost a year now but here we are. You call this spin but you or anyone else can't provide concrete evidence.
    Nice attempt at a strawman.


    (paraphrased)
    You said:  Hey they hired a guy last year and a guy this year so they can't be that financially dire!

    I said: Hey CoE actually was bragging about hiring people, including Sr people in Jan and they closed shop in March.  Hiring people does not in any way, shape or form mean they have financial stability.

    This isn't about Brad dying.  This isn't about anyone shouting from the rooftops that they are dying.  This is about YOU saying that hiring 2 people in 2 years proves financial stability and ME saying not necessarily and here is an example of the opposite.

    As I said, the beautiful thing is that we will eventually know.  Either they will announce a cash infusion, they will fold, or they will release the game on some undetermined multiyear date from now.

    Be sure to come back when one of those 3 happens.

    GdemamigoldwheatWellspringBrainy

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 3,035
    Ungood said:
    YashaX said:
    TwoTubes said:
    All series A funding did was allow them to progress into prealpha.  It has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

    The type of "Angel investers" they have mentioned in the past have not provided anywhere close to the investment that is needed.

    The current discussion in the community is that VR might be close to a deal with an outside publisher and this newsletter was a way to soften the blow when the official announcement comes.  Many people will see someone else having that much influence as a negative. 

    Whatever happens, the point remains that the financial situation talked about in the october newsletter wasn't new info to anyone following closely.  We all knew they would need a major source of funding for it to release...and they still do.
    At this point in time, and this applies to pretty much all these failing crowdfunded mmos, I think the backers should actually welcome an investor taking complete control of the game. That way you might at least get something published.

    Although it seems to me that this whole exercise in crowdfunded mmos is more about sustaining the pipe dream rather than actually making (and finishing) a game. 
    I tend to agree, that crowdfunding as taught us that you really can't use that system as the bases of building a large scale game. It sounds good on paper, like check boxing a bunch of features in an MMO.

    But the reality is, it is a better way to drum up interest, or a last push to  completion, better used to get a game from a working Alpha to Launch.


    Yeah, I was actually very much "anti-crowdfunding" a few years ago, but seeing how smaller studios have used it and early access to successfully develop and release good rpgs has changed my opinion of it.

    But for whatever the reason, it just doesn't seem to work well for mmos. I think one of the main issues is scope creep (or starting out with an overly ambitious plan), but like you and others have mentioned maybe an mmo is just too big a project to take on without massive funding and accountability to investors. 



    GdemamiUngood
    ....
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 39,253
    achesoma said:
    Kyleran said:
    Ungood said:
    YashaX said:
    TwoTubes said:
    All series A funding did was allow them to progress into prealpha.  It has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

    The type of "Angel investers" they have mentioned in the past have not provided anywhere close to the investment that is needed.

    The current discussion in the community is that VR might be close to a deal with an outside publisher and this newsletter was a way to soften the blow when the official announcement comes.  Many people will see someone else having that much influence as a negative. 

    Whatever happens, the point remains that the financial situation talked about in the october newsletter wasn't new info to anyone following closely.  We all knew they would need a major source of funding for it to release...and they still do.
    At this point in time, and this applies to pretty much all these failing crowdfunded mmos, I think the backers should actually welcome an investor taking complete control of the game. That way you might at least get something published.

    Although it seems to me that this whole exercise in crowdfunded mmos is more about sustaining the pipe dream rather than actually making (and finishing) a game. 
    I tend to agree, that crowdfunding as taught us that you really can't use that system as the bases of building a large scale game. It sounds good on paper, like check boxing a bunch of features in an MMO.

    But the reality is, it is a better way to drum up interest, or a last push to  completion, better used to get a game from a working Alpha to Launch.


    When it comes to building large scale games such as MMORPGs I don't feel crowdfunding should play any part.

    These endeavors require large scale funding which is well established from the start in order to hire the proper resources in order to work towards a reasonable delivery plan, which likely is around five to eight years on average.

    If it takes a good $25M or more to reach working alpha, what good is the piddly little amounts most crowd funding efforts ask for.

    Now if a crowd funding campaign went out and asked for $10M plus to "finish" the development it might make some sense, but an extra couple of hundred thousand, no, that's not enough cash to keep a decent sized team stocked up on snacks and drinks for a year.



    You're just guessing, though. Nobody here has a clue how much money they've obtained from investors, pledges or otherwise. How do you know what they got from pledges is "piddly?"
    My remarks were more "in general" than specific to Pantheon but fact remains they are what, five plus years into development with no real end in sight so pretty clear they needed more money than originally requested /projected which has been true of every MMORPG KSer to date, without exception.

     
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  • achesomaachesoma Member RarePosts: 1,518
    achesoma said:
    achesoma said:

    Things can't be that financially dire if VR is still hiring people. Just last year they hired Kyle Olsen (Lead Programmer). And this year they hired Tyler Stokes (Associate Game Designer).
    CoE was bragging about hiring people (including Sr folks like AshKain) as late as Jan if I recall.  They shut their doors in March.

    Folks can bullshit fans all they want, but burn rate is a relentless foe that doesn't care about spin.


    How does another game's failure pertain to Pantheon? When you point to other studios that failed, all I see is that VR is doing something right if they're still going. I'm not familiar with CoE. VR never bragged about hiring people, I'm just pointing out the most recent hires which typically doesn't happen if you don't have the funds.

    Where's the spin? I mean, what actual evidence is there that Ben is lying? I've been following closely for about 3 years now and have yet to catch them in a lie. People were shouting from the rooftops that the game was shutting down during all of 2019 and yet, here it is. People said the game died with Brad and it's been almost a year now but here we are. You call this spin but you or anyone else can't provide concrete evidence.
    Nice attempt at a strawman.


    (paraphrased)
    You said:  Hey they hired a guy last year and a guy this year so they can't be that financially dire!

    I said: Hey CoE actually was bragging about hiring people, including Sr people in Jan and they closed shop in March.  Hiring people does not in any way, shape or form mean they have financial stability.

    This isn't about Brad dying.  This isn't about anyone shouting from the rooftops that they are dying.  This is about YOU saying that hiring 2 people in 2 years proves financial stability and ME saying not necessarily and here is an example of the opposite.

    As I said, the beautiful thing is that we will eventually know.  Either they will announce a cash infusion, they will fold, or they will release the game on some undetermined multiyear date from now.

    Be sure to come back when one of those 3 happens.

    So how are they paying these new people? 

    So your conclusion is it will:

    a) get investors and release. 

    b) not get investors and release 

    c) game gets shut down

    Yes, one of those things will happen. I agree. 

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 39,253
    edited October 2020
    My conclusion, game isn't releasing any time soon regardless...see you in 2023. (The optimistic view of course)
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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 14,467
    achesoma said:

    So how are they paying these new people? 


    I imagine the same way they are paying the old people.  Is there some proof that their revenue stream is increasing?  If not that just increases the burn rate which increases the imperative to release earlier rather than later.


    With absolutely zero hesitation it is clear that their absolute BEST path forward is to get acquired by another company or land a whale of an investor who is going to take over the lion's share of the ownership.

     

    Gdemami

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  • strawhat0981strawhat0981 Member UncommonPosts: 1,111
    I just don't see it.

    Originally posted by laokoko
    "if you want to be a game designer, you should sell your house and fund your game. Since if you won't even fund your own game, no one will".

  • TwoTubesTwoTubes Member UncommonPosts: 324
    Ya I dont see it either.
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