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State of the Game - October 2020 Newsletter

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Comments

  • Cute.Water.DogCute.Water.Dog Newbie CommonPosts: 14
    I think they will get a publisher tbh
    SovrathNanfoodle
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 39,253
    Amathe said:
    kitarad said:

    Makes one appreciate certain people whose names shall remain unnamed ...
    Lord Voldemort? 
    You called my name?


    Sovrathblueturtle13TorvalNanfoodleAmathe

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing ESO - Blackwood at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • Cute.Water.DogCute.Water.Dog Newbie CommonPosts: 14
    PRAYING
  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 9,609
    PRAYING
    Not sure God gets involved in video games =)
    xpsyncMendelTorvalKyleran
  • xpsyncxpsync Member EpicPosts: 1,852
    Nanfoodle said:
    PRAYING
    Not sure God gets involved in video games =)

    Especially crowdfunded ones.
    NanfoodleMendelKyleranScot
    Your legend ends here and now! - (Battles Won Long Ago)

    Remember your ABC's, Always Be Casting! - Preheat 2021

    Currently Playing; WOW, SWG:L

  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 4,863
    xpsync said:
    Nanfoodle said:
    PRAYING
    Not sure God gets involved in video games =)

    Especially crowdfunded ones.

    Crowdfunding is for the other guy.



    NanfoodleTorvalSlapshot1188KyleranxpsyncVrikatzervo

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • WellspringWellspring Member EpicPosts: 1,464
    Nanfoodle said:
    BruceYee said:
    With what we know now that the game is STILL in PRE-alpha does it seem a little
    disingenuous to sell the higher pledge amounts(1,3,10k) with things like lifetime membership? Even the hundreds at this point should be temporarily removed until they get stuff sorted out.
    Thats a little bit of a backward way to look at this. Pantheon has still progressed to the point the have a working part of the game with most systems in play. Where you will be able to play a number of classes from level 1 to 50. With that, Pre-Alpha 5 will be about polishing that so that when Alpha starts, VR will have something to show investors to get more funds. Supporting VR is as much of a gamble as it always has but... They are getting some good momentum. From here, they will just need to repeat the process in other areas of the game. 
    I honestly hope you are right, but I suspect that the situation is quite dire and if they do not get an investor to bite in the next few months they will fold.   I have a suspicion, maybe just a hope, that they already have a deal in the works and that this "Come to Jesus" moment was just to prepare folks for the announcement that they were acquired by XYZ company.

    I've been trying to wrap my head around what VR's motivation was for releasing that State of the Game letter. They're finally coming out of a long dark period of development with Project Faerthale. Pre-alpha testing and communication is ramping up, which should only help to increase community interest. It's the timing. Why, now, say what they did? It just served to pour cold water on any community enthusiasm.

    Most Likely:

    a) @Slapshot1188 you are right. They have a deal in the works and are laying the foundation for an unpopular announcement. After all, "selling out" will be easier for the community to stomach, after being scared by the alternative of shutting down or an even slower development schedule.

    Other theories:

    b) They decided to clear the air, after they were caught by a community member hard-coding quest dialog, 10 days prior.

    https://seforums.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/12433/a-thing-i-didn-t-expect


    c) I'll tell you what I don't buy, that the state of the game was intended simply to update the community about the state of development. What's the point in telling us their struggles and that they need an investor / publisher, just for sake of transparency?? They didn't even ask the community to help bridge the financial gap.


    d) ????



    GdemamiSlapshot1188KumaponNanfoodleTorvalTwoTubes
    --------------------------------------------
  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 9,609
    Nanfoodle said:
    BruceYee said:
    With what we know now that the game is STILL in PRE-alpha does it seem a little
    disingenuous to sell the higher pledge amounts(1,3,10k) with things like lifetime membership? Even the hundreds at this point should be temporarily removed until they get stuff sorted out.
    Thats a little bit of a backward way to look at this. Pantheon has still progressed to the point the have a working part of the game with most systems in play. Where you will be able to play a number of classes from level 1 to 50. With that, Pre-Alpha 5 will be about polishing that so that when Alpha starts, VR will have something to show investors to get more funds. Supporting VR is as much of a gamble as it always has but... They are getting some good momentum. From here, they will just need to repeat the process in other areas of the game. 
    I honestly hope you are right, but I suspect that the situation is quite dire and if they do not get an investor to bite in the next few months they will fold.   I have a suspicion, maybe just a hope, that they already have a deal in the works and that this "Come to Jesus" moment was just to prepare folks for the announcement that they were acquired by XYZ company.

    I've been trying to wrap my head around what VR's motivation was for releasing that State of the Game letter. They're finally coming out of a long dark period of development with Project Faerthale. Pre-alpha testing and communication is ramping up, which should only help to increase community interest. It's the timing. Why, now, say what they did? It just served to pour cold water on any community enthusiasm.

    Most Likely:

    a) @Slapshot1188 you are right. They have a deal in the works and are laying the foundation for an unpopular announcement. After all, "selling out" will be easier for the community to stomach, after being scared by the alternative of shutting down or an even slower development schedule.

    Other theories:

    b) They decided to clear the air, after they were caught by a community member hard-coding quest dialog, 10 days prior.

    https://seforums.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/12433/a-thing-i-didn-t-expect


    c) I'll tell you what I don't buy, that the state of the game was intended simply to update the community about the state of development. What's the point in telling us their struggles and that they need an investor / publisher, just for sake of transparency?? They didn't even ask the community to help bridge the financial gap.


    d) ????



    I think option A is most likely and what first came to mind when I was done reading. I thought, man I hope they find an investor. So that could be just what they want everyone to think. So if they announce they have one, like you said, over sell out. People will be cheering. As long as they are careful not to get tied down with a bad company. Im find with it. 
    Gdemami
  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 4,863
    To further @Slapshot1188's idea (above), what if the unnamed buyout investor was a company like Tencent, which is pretty much raw evil (and probably a worst case scenario).  Imagine the amount of groundwork that would be necessary for VR to make such a commitment palatable to their fans/followers.  I'll get really scared if there is a mass wave of similar announcements.



    Gdemami

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 21,736
    Mendel said:
    To further @Slapshot1188's idea (above), what if the unnamed buyout investor was a company like Tencent, which is pretty much raw evil (and probably a worst case scenario).  Imagine the amount of groundwork that would be necessary for VR to make such a commitment palatable to their fans/followers.  I'll get really scared if there is a mass wave of similar announcements.




    Why would Tencent buy this? That's a question to explore because I think Tencent buys games and studios that have working software with financial value. Who would want to buy a game studio that has no revenue stream, no working software in production, and an MMO built on Unity? That is who would buy this company and I personally don't think Tencent or big players would be interested.
    KyleranMendelGdemamiNanfoodleBruceYee
    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 4,863
    Torval said:
    Mendel said:
    To further @Slapshot1188's idea (above), what if the unnamed buyout investor was a company like Tencent, which is pretty much raw evil (and probably a worst case scenario).  Imagine the amount of groundwork that would be necessary for VR to make such a commitment palatable to their fans/followers.  I'll get really scared if there is a mass wave of similar announcements.




    Why would Tencent buy this? That's a question to explore because I think Tencent buys games and studios that have working software with financial value. Who would want to buy a game studio that has no revenue stream, no working software in production, and an MMO built on Unity? That is who would buy this company and I personally don't think Tencent or big players would be interested.

    Tencent was an example only.



    TorvalGdemami

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 21,736
    edited October 2020
    Mendel said:
    Torval said:
    Mendel said:
    To further @Slapshot1188's idea (above), what if the unnamed buyout investor was a company like Tencent, which is pretty much raw evil (and probably a worst case scenario).  Imagine the amount of groundwork that would be necessary for VR to make such a commitment palatable to their fans/followers.  I'll get really scared if there is a mass wave of similar announcements.




    Why would Tencent buy this? That's a question to explore because I think Tencent buys games and studios that have working software with financial value. Who would want to buy a game studio that has no revenue stream, no working software in production, and an MMO built on Unity? That is who would buy this company and I personally don't think Tencent or big players would be interested.

    Tencent was an example only.




    I understand, but I think it brought up a great point. It made me ask: Who is the target audience for a publisher, investor, or buyer? What or who is the audience for investment into this game, outside of crowd-funders?
    GdemamiMendel
    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 39,253
    Torval said:
    Mendel said:
    Torval said:
    Mendel said:
    To further @Slapshot1188's idea (above), what if the unnamed buyout investor was a company like Tencent, which is pretty much raw evil (and probably a worst case scenario).  Imagine the amount of groundwork that would be necessary for VR to make such a commitment palatable to their fans/followers.  I'll get really scared if there is a mass wave of similar announcements.




    Why would Tencent buy this? That's a question to explore because I think Tencent buys games and studios that have working software with financial value. Who would want to buy a game studio that has no revenue stream, no working software in production, and an MMO built on Unity? That is who would buy this company and I personally don't think Tencent or big players would be interested.

    Tencent was an example only.




    I understand, but I think it brought up a great point. It made me ask: Who is the target audience for a publisher, investor, or buyer? What or who is the audience for investment into this game, outside of crowd-funders?
    Same people who enjoy putting everything down on 35 when spinning the Roulette wheel.

    ;)
    AsheramTorval

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing ESO - Blackwood at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 9,609
    Torval said:
    Mendel said:
    Torval said:
    Mendel said:
    To further @Slapshot1188's idea (above), what if the unnamed buyout investor was a company like Tencent, which is pretty much raw evil (and probably a worst case scenario).  Imagine the amount of groundwork that would be necessary for VR to make such a commitment palatable to their fans/followers.  I'll get really scared if there is a mass wave of similar announcements.




    Why would Tencent buy this? That's a question to explore because I think Tencent buys games and studios that have working software with financial value. Who would want to buy a game studio that has no revenue stream, no working software in production, and an MMO built on Unity? That is who would buy this company and I personally don't think Tencent or big players would be interested.

    Tencent was an example only.




    I understand, but I think it brought up a great point. It made me ask: Who is the target audience for a publisher, investor, or buyer? What or who is the audience for investment into this game, outside of crowd-funders?
    There is no real proof a game like this has a market. Many are asking for it. They have 4000 odd backers that gave $1000+ to the game + all the small fries like myself who gave a little more then you would pay for a B2P game. But would any of them stick around, or do we all have things were better back in the good old days vision? Working studios dont seem to want to touch this kind of endeavor. Closest was Blizzard with WoW classic and that games numbers have fallen allot. Still a huge gamble. I hope someone is willing.  
  • BruceYeeBruceYee Member EpicPosts: 2,513
    Torval said:

    I understand, but I think it brought up a great point. It made me ask: Who is the target audience for a publisher, investor, or buyer? What or who is the audience for investment into this game, outside of crowd-funders?

    Who's willing to hire devs that no other company will employ to work on a game that'll still be in alpha after 4-5 years? Simple answer >>> AGS
    Gdemami
  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 9,609
    edited October 2020
    BruceYee said:
    Torval said:

    I understand, but I think it brought up a great point. It made me ask: Who is the target audience for a publisher, investor, or buyer? What or who is the audience for investment into this game, outside of crowd-funders?

    Who's willing to hire devs that no other company will employ to work on a game that'll still be in alpha after 4-5 years? Simple answer >>> AGS
    I dont think you have any proof of that statement. Frankly, the VR team has pulled a major feat, creating what they have with how little they have to work with. The parts of the game that are done look stunning and play how their backers have asked for and they have added some really awesome stuff like climbing almost everything, that you see in major titles like Assassins Creed.
  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,851
    Never never never buy a game before it releases.

    I can't believe it still needs repeating.
    GdemamiBrainy
  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 4,468
    Thats less than optimal.
    Please set a sig so I can read your posting even if somebody "agreed" etc with it. Thanks.
  • achesomaachesoma Member RarePosts: 1,518
    Never never never buy a game before it releases.

    I can't believe it still needs repeating.

    Gamers: I'm sick of corporate greed ruining MMOs!

    Developers: Will you financially support my MMO from our indie gaming studio?

    Gamers: No.

    Developers: Ok, we'll get some major publishers to back our studio.

    Gamers: Sellout! I'm sick of corporate greed ruining MMOs!


    People aren't buying a game. They're supporting a small studio to get the type of MMO they want.

  • goldwheatgoldwheat Member UncommonPosts: 66
    People aren't buying a game. They're supporting a small studio to get the type of MMO they want. 
    I won't speak for anyone else, but for me, any donations would simply be to buy the game.

    If the idea isn't good enough to gather donations, it should fail.  It did, via Kickstarter.
    Not using Kickstarter simply delayed the same inevitable outcome by 7 years.

    It's not exactly the game I want.  My needs are modest.  No cash shop, subscription only.
    They won't be able to fulfill either or both of those, by their own admission.
    This team said they were fully funded to launch (without a date), then they weren't fully funded (without a date), and now they won't be able to launch in a reasonable time, based on crowdfunding alone.

    It might be reasonable to extend faith and trust, except for one teeny tiny problem.  They've done all this before.  Many times.  Some of the current and past developers of this project have been through the creation (from scratch) of an MMO client, server, and database.  They have been through the acquisition of a small/indie project by a large company, publisher, or similar.

    As has been said before (on this site), they should have proven the game mechanics, MMO-networking and gameplay loops BEFORE they went looking for money to make it look shiny.  They did the opposite, and now it's biting them in the ass. 
    Reap?  Meet sow.  I'm sure you'll be very happy together.  No-one is there to shield me from my mistakes that I make as an adult.  The Pantheon developers deserve the same consequences.

    The really funny part is that at any time since 2014, when this whole disaster started rolling, they could have pumped the brakes and said "woah, woah, hardcoding everything into the client?  That's wonko!  Let's go back to basics and take a few minutes to create a few greybox testing zones, and prove all these mechanics actually work with primitives instead of models".  And while we're at it, we'll take all the hardcoding out of the client, and put all of it (read: as much of it as possible xoxo Nanfoodle) into a database so we can do live updates the way an actual modern MMO does.

    In fact, they had three different opportunities to do that.  They've publicly said they started again in 2014 (after the failed kickstarter), 2016 when they acquired new staff, and 2018 with project farthall. Now we're in 2020, and they're re-starting again, but still only going halfway, and their hand is still out for more money.  Yay?
    They have now consumed twice as much time as it took to create EQ1 from scratch (with zero tools!) and have no public product to sell.

    Here's a pro tip:  To demonstrate if your MMO gameplay loops work, you don't need any art.  You don't need any sound, music, particle effects, lighting, shaders, models, animations, or even textures.  Exactly zero art or content is required.  That would be a pre-alpha build that anyone (claiming to be a Unity developer)could create in Unity as a proof of concept, at any time.

    But they didn't.  At every step, despite their community telling them it was a mistake, they've been reading chapter and verse out of the Book of Fail, and swimming in their own kool-aid.  Again.  Just like Vanguard.
    GdemamiMendelKyleranBrainyTimukas
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342
    edited October 2020
    goldwheat said:
    Here's a pro tip:  To demonstrate if your MMO gameplay loops work, you don't need any art.  You don't need any sound, music, particle effects, lighting, shaders, models, animations, or even textures.  Exactly zero art or content is required.  
    ...pro-tip by a real pro.
    KyleranKumaponTimukas
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 21,736
    edited October 2020
    achesoma said:
    Never never never buy a game before it releases.

    I can't believe it still needs repeating.

    Gamers: I'm sick of corporate greed ruining MMOs!

    Developers: Will you financially support my MMO from our indie gaming studio?

    Gamers: No.

    Developers: Ok, we'll get some major publishers to back our studio.

    Gamers: Sellout! I'm sick of corporate greed ruining MMOs!


    People aren't buying a game. They're supporting a small studio to get the type of MMO they want.

    Turns out Indies pull the same stupid shit corporate giants do especially regarding revenue. And bonus many aren't professionals at all which is obvious by their terrible coding and the comments from some self-proclaimed "devs" (and I use that term loosely, more like interns) on this forum.

    So all you get by supporting most of these games are low-budget mediocre efforts by a bunch of hacks. Decent indie projects are few and far between and stand out by their results. It isn't the big bad publishers that have been the problem, it's poorly run studios.
    Sovrathblueturtle13KyleranNanfoodleGdemamiMendel
    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 14,467
    achesoma said:
    Never never never buy a game before it releases.

    I can't believe it still needs repeating.



    People aren't buying a game. They're supporting a small studio to get the type of MMO they want.
    Was that a quote from Ryan Dancey and Pathfinder Online?   Sounds very familiar...

    Kyleran

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • jdnycjdnyc Member UncommonPosts: 1,642
    I expected this.  A lot of the early stuff felt like it was lifted from EQ.  I think what they are doing is smart. 
  • jdnycjdnyc Member UncommonPosts: 1,642
    achesoma said:
    Never never never buy a game before it releases.

    I can't believe it still needs repeating.



    People aren't buying a game. They're supporting a small studio to get the type of MMO they want.
    Was that a quote from Ryan Dancey and Pathfinder Online?   Sounds very familiar...

    I think his statement was people say they don’t like to spend a lot of money, but their wallets say otherwise.  That was in response to him charging $250 for a cabin in the game.  People were making the ethical argument and he saw it in dollars and cents.  That mindset continued from the very beginning until he eventually bailed and left Lisa Stevens holding the bag. Game has been on life support ever since.
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