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State of the Game - October 2020 Newsletter

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Comments

  • TheocritusTheocritus Member LegendaryPosts: 8,801
    Kyleran said:
    Staggering and lurching about....



    Hahaha good one!
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member LegendaryPosts: 8,801
    BruceYee said:
    Kumapon said:



    Next, some of the language being used is concerning. He mentions "we’re going to need more resources to get Pantheon done sooner than our modest team can realistically do by themselves in a reasonable timeframe" and "As a result of the PA testing and our own list of notes and to-dos, it was very clear that if the game was to ship we were going to need to get more parties interested, get more investment, and expand the team with more talent and skill sets beyond those of our current roster." This reads like "if we don't get actual investors and a publisher, it wont release"


    What do you all think of this ?
    I read that as "if we don't get more money we're screwed" nothing more nothing less.

    Seriously why don't they just take what they have with the classes, skills, zones they have made and do instanced content. Yes it's not what they planned but a Kings and Heroes or whatever that grouping dungeon crawl game was called could be successful in this short attention spam era of gaming. Add some solid long-term progression systems in there and they could possibly have gold in their hands. It sure as heck would be easier to complete and they could just add classes, races, zones in the future without those unrealistic big dream costs/demands.


    This is what we were saying then they decided no we need a weather and perception system in place.........They have wasted too many resources on worthless things that don't add to the game.
    xpsyncMendelseraphis79SewteryGdemami
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 39,253
    Scot said:
    We simply cannot have another CF MMO fold, it would be the tombstone to the whole idea of making quality indie MMORPG's. The fact some have launched like AO and been successful enough would not save CF MMO's if we had two failures.
    I beg to differ.  People that lost thousands backing the CoE disaster literally took no more than a few weeks to latch onto a similar game that sells "Nobility" for hundreds and thousands.   There will ALWAYS be people that will crowdfund games based on promises and dreams. 
    Agreed, a sucker born every minute and all that you know.

    ;)
    Sewtery

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing ESO - Blackwood at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
    So. This is just a thought. Amazon has shed itself of two games lately. Maybe they want to pick up one they just have to fund and finish .... 
    KyleranSewtery

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 30,284
    BruceYee said:
    Kumapon said:



    Next, some of the language being used is concerning. He mentions "we’re going to need more resources to get Pantheon done sooner than our modest team can realistically do by themselves in a reasonable timeframe" and "As a result of the PA testing and our own list of notes and to-dos, it was very clear that if the game was to ship we were going to need to get more parties interested, get more investment, and expand the team with more talent and skill sets beyond those of our current roster." This reads like "if we don't get actual investors and a publisher, it wont release"


    What do you all think of this ?
    I read that as "if we don't get more money we're screwed" nothing more nothing less.

    Seriously why don't they just take what they have with the classes, skills, zones they have made and do instanced content. Yes it's not what they planned but a Kings and Heroes or whatever that grouping dungeon crawl game was called could be successful in this short attention spam era of gaming. Add some solid long-term progression systems in there and they could possibly have gold in their hands. It sure as heck would be easier to complete and they could just add classes, races, zones in the future without those unrealistic big dream costs/demands.


    This is what we were saying then they decided no we need a weather and perception system in place.........They have wasted too many resources on worthless things that don't add to the game.
    I would say they do add to the game. They add to the game the backers "backed."

    I am assuming you did not back the game? Probably because such things aren't of interest which makes sense because you don't think they add to the game.
    Nanfoodleseraphis79
    Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547

    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 4,863
    Sovrath said:
    BruceYee said:
    Kumapon said:



    Next, some of the language being used is concerning. He mentions "we’re going to need more resources to get Pantheon done sooner than our modest team can realistically do by themselves in a reasonable timeframe" and "As a result of the PA testing and our own list of notes and to-dos, it was very clear that if the game was to ship we were going to need to get more parties interested, get more investment, and expand the team with more talent and skill sets beyond those of our current roster." This reads like "if we don't get actual investors and a publisher, it wont release"


    What do you all think of this ?
    I read that as "if we don't get more money we're screwed" nothing more nothing less.

    Seriously why don't they just take what they have with the classes, skills, zones they have made and do instanced content. Yes it's not what they planned but a Kings and Heroes or whatever that grouping dungeon crawl game was called could be successful in this short attention spam era of gaming. Add some solid long-term progression systems in there and they could possibly have gold in their hands. It sure as heck would be easier to complete and they could just add classes, races, zones in the future without those unrealistic big dream costs/demands.


    This is what we were saying then they decided no we need a weather and perception system in place.........They have wasted too many resources on worthless things that don't add to the game.
    I would say they do add to the game. They add to the game the backers "backed."

    I am assuming you did not back the game? Probably because such things aren't of interest which makes sense because you don't think they add to the game.

    Scope creep is scope creep, regardless of who (and how many) like it.



    seraphis79SewteryGdemami

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • SandmanjwSandmanjw Member RarePosts: 451
    I swear it seems this project is going backwards. 

    It was what? 2 years ago they were releasing vids of people playing?

    Guess that was the part they were talking about working themselves into a corner?

    Dunno, but it still seems like a long way to go, and as with most of these projects, never enough people,money, or efficiency and or planning to get the job done. 

    They need a new want ad...Hiring!!!! Magician to pull this f'ing rabbit out of the hat.
    Cause it does not sound too good to me.
    enesisxlr8tzervoseraphis79SewteryGdemami
  • enesisxlr8enesisxlr8 Member UncommonPosts: 112
    Did even know pre- alpha was a thing... game will never see the light of day
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 39,253
    Sandmanjw said:
    I swear it seems this project is going backwards. 

    It was what? 2 years ago they were releasing vids of people playing?

    Guess that was the part they were talking about working themselves into a corner?

    Dunno, but it still seems like a long way to go, and as with most of these projects, never enough people,money, or efficiency and or planning to get the job done. 

    They need a new want ad...Hiring!!!! Magician to pull this f'ing rabbit out of the hat.
    Cause it does not sound too good to me.
    Well yes, that is exactly what happened, they intentionally went backwards in order to make moving forward easier.

    You are not wrong, many years to go before this game ever sees full release.
    tzervoSewteryGdemami

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing ESO - Blackwood at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 30,284
    edited October 2020
    Mendel said:


    Scope creep is scope creep, regardless of who (and how many) like it.





    Scope creep means that over the course of development, various features and content are added and expanded so that they change the project's scope. Not "an original feature of the game.

    Their initial kickstarter was in february 2014.

    The whole weather thing was discussed a month before it.


    This is the game that backers backed. It's not superfluous to those who backed the game and who were excited about those features. I'm not sure where you are getting scope creep.



    Post edited by Sovrath on
    Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547

    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 21,736
    Nanfoodle said:
    Torval said:
    Scot said:
    We simply cannot have another CF MMO fold, it would be the tombstone to the whole idea of making quality indie MMORPG's. The fact some have launched like AO and been successful enough would not save CF MMO's if we had two failures.

    I'd argue that we need poorly managed crowd-funded or early access games to fold sooner or be forced to launch within a certain time period so consumers aren't strung along for a decade with empty promises. If consumers wise up then maybe studios will take their responsibilities more seriously.
    Thing is, Indy Studios often are not fully functioning companies with people that knows how to run a company. Brad was a great developer but really had some flaws when it came to admin side of things. Backers, backing games on the hopes the concept flies, Im not sure anyone could regulate that. VR has learned as they have gone along. Seems they now have things in stride, will the fans keep with them at that point? Who knows.

    I hear what you're saying and I think you're probably right in the majority of cases. That doesn't bode well though because at the end of the day these are businesses that need to be self-sustainable if they're going to survive or thrive. If they're not business minded, then they're doomed from day one.
    NanfoodleSovrathblueturtle13
    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • bng28bng28 Member UncommonPosts: 89
    To me it seems like project faerthale was to get the game in order to show off to big time investors, actual companies that will pay the budget and provide a team they need to get it done.  All under the guise of "preparing for the next pre-alpha."

    But now we know theyve scrapped the game TWICE.  It's clear from this letter that they need more people and more money.  

    Sell-out incoming.
    KyleranTorvaltzervoMendelSewteryGdemami
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 30,284
    bng28 said:
    To me it seems like project faerthale was to get the game in order to show off to big time investors, actual companies that will pay the budget and provide a team they need to get it done.  All under the guise of "preparing for the next pre-alpha."

    But now we know theyve scrapped the game TWICE.  It's clear from this letter that they need more people and more money.  

    Sell-out incoming.

    That's exactly what faerthale was.
    KyleranTorvaltzervo
    Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547

    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 9,609
    Torval said:
    Nanfoodle said:
    Torval said:
    Scot said:
    We simply cannot have another CF MMO fold, it would be the tombstone to the whole idea of making quality indie MMORPG's. The fact some have launched like AO and been successful enough would not save CF MMO's if we had two failures.

    I'd argue that we need poorly managed crowd-funded or early access games to fold sooner or be forced to launch within a certain time period so consumers aren't strung along for a decade with empty promises. If consumers wise up then maybe studios will take their responsibilities more seriously.
    Thing is, Indy Studios often are not fully functioning companies with people that knows how to run a company. Brad was a great developer but really had some flaws when it came to admin side of things. Backers, backing games on the hopes the concept flies, Im not sure anyone could regulate that. VR has learned as they have gone along. Seems they now have things in stride, will the fans keep with them at that point? Who knows.

    I hear what you're saying and I think you're probably right in the majority of cases. That doesn't bode well though because at the end of the day these are businesses that need to be self-sustainable if they're going to survive or thrive. If they're not business minded, then they're doomed from day one.
    Yes most likely, most studios like that will fail. 
    KyleranTorvalSewtery
  • BruceYeeBruceYee Member EpicPosts: 2,513
    With what we know now that the game is STILL in PRE-alpha does it seem a little
    disingenuous to sell the higher pledge amounts(1,3,10k) with things like lifetime membership? Even the hundreds at this point should be temporarily removed until they get stuff sorted out.
    TimukasGdemami
  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 9,609
    BruceYee said:
    With what we know now that the game is STILL in PRE-alpha does it seem a little
    disingenuous to sell the higher pledge amounts(1,3,10k) with things like lifetime membership? Even the hundreds at this point should be temporarily removed until they get stuff sorted out.
    Thats a little bit of a backward way to look at this. Pantheon has still progressed to the point the have a working part of the game with most systems in play. Where you will be able to play a number of classes from level 1 to 50. With that, Pre-Alpha 5 will be about polishing that so that when Alpha starts, VR will have something to show investors to get more funds. Supporting VR is as much of a gamble as it always has but... They are getting some good momentum. From here, they will just need to repeat the process in other areas of the game. 
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 14,467
    Nanfoodle said:
    BruceYee said:
    With what we know now that the game is STILL in PRE-alpha does it seem a little
    disingenuous to sell the higher pledge amounts(1,3,10k) with things like lifetime membership? Even the hundreds at this point should be temporarily removed until they get stuff sorted out.
    Thats a little bit of a backward way to look at this. Pantheon has still progressed to the point the have a working part of the game with most systems in play. Where you will be able to play a number of classes from level 1 to 50. With that, Pre-Alpha 5 will be about polishing that so that when Alpha starts, VR will have something to show investors to get more funds. Supporting VR is as much of a gamble as it always has but... They are getting some good momentum. From here, they will just need to repeat the process in other areas of the game. 
    I honestly hope you are right, but I suspect that the situation is quite dire and if they do not get an investor to bite in the next few months they will fold.   I have a suspicion, maybe just a hope, that they already have a deal in the works and that this "Come to Jesus" moment was just to prepare folks for the announcement that they were acquired by XYZ company.
    SovrathKyleranAmatheMendelTorval

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

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    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

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  • MensurMensur Member RarePosts: 1,079
    I believe in this game. You can say what you will- but they are transparent all the way through.  They share their ups and downs. I am confident that they will reach their goal- however the road ahead seems rocky to say at least. 
    Sovrathxpsync

    Proud MMORPG.com member since 2009! 




  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 6,787
    Nanfoodle said:
    BruceYee said:
    With what we know now that the game is STILL in PRE-alpha does it seem a little
    disingenuous to sell the higher pledge amounts(1,3,10k) with things like lifetime membership? Even the hundreds at this point should be temporarily removed until they get stuff sorted out.
    Thats a little bit of a backward way to look at this. Pantheon has still progressed to the point the have a working part of the game with most systems in play. Where you will be able to play a number of classes from level 1 to 50. With that, Pre-Alpha 5 will be about polishing that so that when Alpha starts, VR will have something to show investors to get more funds. Supporting VR is as much of a gamble as it always has but... They are getting some good momentum. From here, they will just need to repeat the process in other areas of the game. 
    They have come quite a ways but unfortunately they have a long way to go still and I believe the kitty is empty.
    tzervoAmatheKyleran

  • VrikaVrika Member LegendaryPosts: 7,176
    This is worrying me most:

    "We realized that should we continue with the then-current implementation practices, we wouldn’t be able to ship the game. We were backing ourselves in a corner with hardcoding. Any changes had to be done by programming. All quests, all encounters, everything was hardcoded into the client. Designers couldn’t do implementation themselves, they needed a programmer to put it into the game for them"

    Hardcoding stuff like that onto an MMO client should basically be prototyping when you want to test how your idea would work. They've got really bad lack of skill or experience if they had to discover that it wasn't scalable into full game.
    tzervoMendelTorvalGdemami
     
  • lahnmirlahnmir Member LegendaryPosts: 4,552
    Nanfoodle said:
    BruceYee said:
    With what we know now that the game is STILL in PRE-alpha does it seem a little
    disingenuous to sell the higher pledge amounts(1,3,10k) with things like lifetime membership? Even the hundreds at this point should be temporarily removed until they get stuff sorted out.
    Thats a little bit of a backward way to look at this. Pantheon has still progressed to the point the have a working part of the game with most systems in play. Where you will be able to play a number of classes from level 1 to 50. With that, Pre-Alpha 5 will be about polishing that so that when Alpha starts, VR will have something to show investors to get more funds. Supporting VR is as much of a gamble as it always has but... They are getting some good momentum. From here, they will just need to repeat the process in other areas of the game. 
    I honestly hope you are right, but I suspect that the situation is quite dire and if they do not get an investor to bite in the next few months they will fold.   I have a suspicion, maybe just a hope, that they already have a deal in the works and that this "Come to Jesus" moment was just to prepare folks for the announcement that they were acquired by XYZ company.
    Microsoft, bringing Pantheon to a Game Pass near you. Just imagine that, it would be brilliant.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Torval
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...



    'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless. 

    It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.

    It is just huge resource waste....'

    Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer

  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 6,787
    edited October 2020
    Vrika said:
    This is worrying me most:

    "We realized that should we continue with the then-current implementation practices, we wouldn’t be able to ship the game. We were backing ourselves in a corner with hardcoding. Any changes had to be done by programming. All quests, all encounters, everything was hardcoded into the client. Designers couldn’t do implementation themselves, they needed a programmer to put it into the game for them"

    Hardcoding stuff like that onto an MMO client should basically be prototyping when you want to test how your idea would work. They've got really bad lack of skill or experience if they had to discover that it wasn't scalable into full game.
    They were crowdfunded initially so their talent pool must not be that stellar but if they had very good coders and such they wouldn't be in the pickle they seem to be in. Large studios have a stable of good coders and such but this game is being developed on the premise of "if wishes were horses, beggars would ride". They have also lost an integral member of the team that could have attracted more investment.
    KyleranAmatheGdemami

  • BrainyBrainy Member RarePosts: 873
    Sovrath said:
    Mendel said:


    Scope creep is scope creep, regardless of who (and how many) like it.





    Scope creep means that over the course of development, various features and content are added and expanded so that they change the project's scope. Not "an original feature of the game.

    Their initial kickstarter was in february 2014.

    The whole weather thing was discussed a month before it.


    This is the game that backers backed. It's not superfluous to those who backed the game and who were excited about those features. I'm not sure where you are getting scope creep.




    I'm pretty sure most people invested, so they could play a game that would actually RELEASE.  Who cares about stupid features if they cant even get the game out the door.  Just poor mismanagement.

    You write a list of 100 ideas or things you need to do starting 1 as the most critical until you get to 100.  These guys are starting from the bottom of the list of least important things and working their way up.

    Oh this is fantastic we got an almost completed weather system, but unfortunately we wont be able to finish the actual game because we ran out of funding for the entire game trying to create it.  But HEY its really cool if it was done. 

    That's just brilliant!
    Gdemami
  • coretex666coretex666 Member EpicPosts: 4,108
    Pity, I was looking forward to this game.

    I guess 10 years from now when the donations dry up, there will be a similar letter from CIG :).
  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Member LegendaryPosts: 13,098
    I have said this for some time now after I played the 'game' they had a while back with Jim Lee and the state of the project was such a mess. 
    Not to mention it was just not fun. 
    I understand what they are trying to create but they are far from being able to accomplish it. 

    I have stated repeatedly that using Unity was a mistake. 
    I had told Brad this (more than once) at the start of this.
    I know it was a cost savings move but it was one that did cost them in the long run. 
    Not only do they use an engine not meant for an MMORPG but they also have had numerous people involved that are not experienced enough to help create a game of this kind. 
    So combine ineffective management with less than qualified team members with an engine not made for an MMORPG and you get.....no MMORPG.

    This is the reason MJ created his own engine for CU. 
    Unreal Engine which he was thinking of using was not going to be able to pull off what CU wanted to accomplish. 
    At least with his game the 7 years of development time is somewhat explainable (somewhat, Still seems too long for a strictly PVP game but that is another thread)
     
    I think this project should just be scrapped. 
    It passed on when Brad did. 
    MikehaKyleranMendelTorvalGdemami

    거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다












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