This, the game is building upon realism, but the best kinds of realism, the fun part, the part that adds to the joy of the game, in short, Realism without the suck, sort to speak.
Which is, IMHO, I think something that MMO developers would do well to focus on.
Define "fun parts." I bet my "fun parts" differ from others. (That sounds kind of dirty... "fun parts"...)
My mind went immediately to bag space as you described your "outfits for every biome" idea. So I need 10 pairs of pants, 10 pairs of shoes, 10 shirts with nothing stackable because they are different.
It would be interesting to look deeper at "realism", but certainly a paper puzzle as I don't see any developer scrambling to change the tried and true formula currently in an excess of use
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
This, the game is building upon realism, but the best kinds of realism, the fun part, the part that adds to the joy of the game, in short, Realism without the suck, sort to speak.
Which is, IMHO, I think something that MMO developers would do well to focus on.
Define "fun parts." I bet my "fun parts" differ from others. (That sounds kind of dirty... "fun parts"...)
My mind went immediately to bag space as you described your "outfits for every biome" idea. So I need 10 pairs of pants, 10 pairs of shoes, 10 shirts with nothing stackable because they are different.
It would be interesting to look deeper at "realism", but certainly a paper puzzle as I don't see any developer scrambling to change the tried and true formula currently in an excess of use
I was actually thinking of how GW2 handles loadouts, where each Loadout counts as Equipped Inventory, IE: It's treated as being worn, so it does not take up space in your "bag" inventory.
Again.. the idea is to deal with and present the Fun aspects, without the Suck.
I mean, this idea is not new, it is an old idea, applied in a new way. Case in point, GW2 provides 3 free base loadouts that change by game mode, IE: Separate Loadouts for WvW, sPvP, & PvE.
Each Loadout allows you to fully set up the character, this includes gear, traitlines, utility abilities, everything, in short, you get to set up a whole new build for that gamemode, if you want.
You can also buy additional loadouts, and use them for other game styles, to use an example, on my Guard, I have my WvW, sPvP, and PvE (Which is only for Map Exploration), I have also set up a Loadout for doing Fractals/Dungeons.
My Mesmer has a loadout I set up just for Jump Puzzles, which they have traitlines, weapons, and gear that gives them the best advantage to complete jump puzzles.
My Engineer has a loadout just for doing HoT, with is a Juggernaut Flamethrower build.
Now, when it comes to the variations of PvE, I have to click which build I plan to use, but they automatically swap when I go to the various game modes like WvW and sPvP.
As I see it, It would be a small step to expand this Loadout idea to more nuanced triggers, like having a Loadout that triggers when you enter any of the Shiverpeaks zones (Cold nordic regions) , another for the Maguuma (Jungle-esque) then another for Ascalon (Hot dry Desert regions), another for Kryta (temperate regions), finally a more Biohazard survival Loadout for Orr (Land of death and undead), then they could add loadouts for the living story zones, the expansions, etc, etc.
So it's, it's just taking an existing idea, and applying it in a way that players might enjoy.
Then, simply a matter of adding environmental factors, like for example, while Norns who live in the Shiverpeaks would not need "Cold Weather" gear, as they naturally resilient, they would need special gear for the warm regions of Ascalon, so they don't pass out from heat exhaustion.
Equally so, Humans would need to invest in Cold Weather Gear, or risk freezing to death in the Shiverpeaks.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
The online aspect of the genre is lacking. The things that make online society are lacking. Gameplay based around the online world is lacking. The small touches that make you feel like you are in a society are lacking.
I'd say that's partially because that's not what most people want. Of progression, story, and social aspects in an MMO, progression seems by far the most popular. Story is by the multiplayer aspect, and social aspects don't seem to be in high demand.
To be clear, "LFG" isn't a social aspect, it's a too to facilitate progression. Social aspects would be taverns for social interaction, stages to perform on, and other features/mechanics to accommodate or enhance socializing.
Absent "immersive" content such as weather requiring different gear probably has a very simple answer - storage. Requiring players to have multiple sets of gear makes it harder to sell storage and more of a pain to justify limited storage space.
As for other "immersive" features, you can thank every last online douchebag that abused the crap out of them, resulting in their removal.
Killing NPCs
stealing/breaking shop/town furniture and amenities
placing items in the game world
almost anything fire-related
open world player-run venues
public bulletin boards
player-created books, flyers, and signage
Between douchebaggery and TTP, many of the socialization-supporting niceties have disappeared.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
The online aspect of the genre is lacking. The things that make online society are lacking. Gameplay based around the online world is lacking. The small touches that make you feel like you are in a society are lacking.
I'd say that's partially because that's not what most people want. Of progression, story, and social aspects in an MMO, progression seems by far the most popular. Story is by the multiplayer aspect, and social aspects don't seem to be in high demand.
To be clear, "LFG" isn't a social aspect, it's a too to facilitate progression. Social aspects would be taverns for social interaction, stages to perform on, and other features/mechanics to accommodate or enhance socializing.
Absent "immersive" content such as weather requiring different gear probably has a very simple answer - storage. Requiring players to have multiple sets of gear makes it harder to sell storage and more of a pain to justify limited storage space.
As for other "immersive" features, you can thank every last online douchebag that abused the crap out of them, resulting in their removal.
Killing NPCs
stealing/breaking shop/town furniture and amenities
placing items in the game world
almost anything fire-related
open world player-run venues
public bulletin boards
player-created books, flyers, and signage
Between douchebaggery and TTP, many of the socialization-supporting niceties have disappeared.
Devs just didn't handle those issues right. Why isn't killing an NPC a crime against some social game entity? With ramifications. Especially in a city that players are a part of, who rely on said NPCs as shopkeeps and whatever.
The online aspect of the genre is lacking. The things that make online society are lacking. Gameplay based around the online world is lacking. The small touches that make you feel like you are in a society are lacking.
I'd say that's partially because that's not what most people want. Of progression, story, and social aspects in an MMO, progression seems by far the most popular. Story is by the multiplayer aspect, and social aspects don't seem to be in high demand.
To be clear, "LFG" isn't a social aspect, it's a too to facilitate progression. Social aspects would be taverns for social interaction, stages to perform on, and other features/mechanics to accommodate or enhance socializing.
Absent "immersive" content such as weather requiring different gear probably has a very simple answer - storage. Requiring players to have multiple sets of gear makes it harder to sell storage and more of a pain to justify limited storage space.
As for other "immersive" features, you can thank every last online douchebag that abused the crap out of them, resulting in their removal.
Killing NPCs
stealing/breaking shop/town furniture and amenities
placing items in the game world
almost anything fire-related
open world player-run venues
public bulletin boards
player-created books, flyers, and signage
Between douchebaggery and TTP, many of the socialization-supporting niceties have disappeared.
Devs just didn't handle those issues right. Why isn't killing an NPC a crime against some social game entity? With ramifications. Especially in a city that players are a part of, who rely on said NPCs as shopkeeps and whatever.
It was in EQ, and killing some NPC's set your faction so low you could never go into the city.
What some players would do, is pull some NPC's, and if they hit anyone during the pull, that player would also get a faction hit if the NPC was killed.
So it was a great way for some evil races to troll people in cities like Freeport or Qeynos.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
When I talk about RPG I am talking about that half of them game. I look at MMORPG as a combination of RPG and online gaming world which is kind of created. As you now have other MMO. Like an FPS in an online gaming world.
I feel like many MMORPG are basically RPG slapped on online worlds vs. the online world aspect being prominent. Just how the story and the players are not intrinsically necessary to complement each other to complete most of the game. The players and game world are just the back drop to the RPG game that could probsbly work offline.
RPG used to be the part of the game that brought people together. It's was what started this whole MMO ride we are all on. Most of the people I played EQ1 with back in 1999 were PnP players, thrilled to RP in a virtual world they could see. People would break out into RP randomly for any number of reasons. mmorpgs will always be about the RPG for me first and foremost.
Ungood said: Sorry it has taken so long to get back to you on this one, been trying to think of how to respond.
I agree with the idea that too much realism is not a good thing. I a also agree that realism for the sake of realism is also a waste.
But, I am reminded of something I heard at a Ren Fair (Renaissance Fair)
"We are here to create the best of the middle ages, you know, the dress, the food, the wine, the chivalry, without all that whole dying to plagues and such"
And I think, if MMO's adopted this approach, where the Fun kinds of realism kicked in, like, just to use an example. People talk about "Loadouts", so, if they made it so that players could have loadouts for each Biome, that would be a fun aspect. They get to have a whole gear swap, that they just change into when they enter those biomes. This allows them to get their cold weather clothing for the frozen tundra, an break out their Speedo's and Tridents for when they jump in the water, they change to the more traditional european outfits in the Temperate environments, etc.
This allowing the players that like to meta, to gear up and equip say, flaming weapons when they go into the cold regions, because the fire does more damage, and allowing them to optimize per biome as opposed to trying to make a one-size-fits-all character.
And for the more relaxed player, it allows them to think about the various fashion choices they can make per environment, and allows them to 'dress for the occasion'
In this case, it is a complex thing, but added in a way that players already know, Loadouts, just triggered by the Biome that players enter.
Even going to far as to have clothing for walking through PvE (Safe/town) zones, where having their massive weapons out and outfitted in full battle gear to deal with the banker, would make no sense.
This, the game is building upon realism, but the best kinds of realism, the fun part, the part that adds to the joy of the game, in short, Realism without the suck, sort to speak.
Which is, IMHO, I think something that MMO developers would do well to focus on.
The ren fair quote isn't about realism, but idealism. Of course with all the negative elements removed the remainder becomes much more pleasant. That does nothing though for those seeking realism, which isn't what ren fairs are about but some wish more games were about.
In place of realism you are suggesting the guise of it, mainly through the automatic adjustment of the character's cosmetics based on their environment. If all people want is the illusion of realism such a system would be ideal. For those seeking game play relevant realism It provides very little.
Regardless, for some it would be good enough and so long as it doesn't negatively impact the game otherwise would be harmless to those not interested, so why not.
This is a good point of contention.
What I think is going on, is that there is a difference between Immersion and Realism.
I think when players talk about Realism, they are really asking for Immersion, in short, they are looking for the game world to make sense, both an collaboratively way and a generic way.
In the Generic sense, they kind of expect things like water to appear and feel wet, to have at least some kind of effect on their character, be it, slowing down how fast they walk through water that us knee deep, to needing to swim through water that is deeper than they are tall. The idea of water having effect, would be a Generic for of Immersion, and makes the world they are playing in feel more realistic. This is often called Realism, but it really is just a means of immersion.
Just like rain, snow, etc, darkening the sky and obscuring vision.
Fire Burning things and giving off light.
These is Generic Immersion, things from our real world that we expect to also have carry over to the game world.
In Short, they expect that 2+2=4
However, in High Fantasy Worlds, where magic Exists, there is no true realism, as magic can bend the rules of nature.
Once we place magic, mysticism, super science, and all that into the game, it changes the whole dynamic of how the game functions and behaves and what becomes "Realistic"
Because once you start going in that direction, 2+2 can equal Fish.
Not to mention, most players don't want stark realism. They want high fantasy, they want an idealistic playground, that is why they are the Dragon Slayer not the generic Farmer that got eaten by the Dragon last week, which is how 99% of the population really ends up.
So, we start off with the players being "Heroic" they come out special, and destined, even if there is no story holding their hand telling them such, they are still the Hero's of the land, the stuff of legend, the thing that every peasant child wishes to become, and over time become wealthier than Elon Musk in the sense of the game world.
Sure there are games that buck that trend, and such, like Day Z for example, where you zone in as some pitiful sap that lived, and the goal is, try not to die too fast, but for the most part, when players get into the game, they are there to live out a fantasy. They are there to do heroic things, and become the stuff of legend.
So.. yah, they don't want to log into a MMO to do a 9-5 dead end job, which is what realism would be.
And don't get me started on things like, not dying, I mean, really, anything less than Perma-Death is just not realistic.
Ideally, I don't really think players want stark realism, I highly doubt they want to play a game that is not only Perma-Death, but where they watch their one and only character cry pitifully for help while defecating upon themselves as they succumb to fatal wounds.
So what players really what is for things to make sense while they are in the game world. No so much realism,. but, Immersion that makes sense.
If they can come back to life after being defeated, having lore behind that, why it happens, and the like, adds to the Immersion of the game, even if it is totally unrealistic to be cut in half and somehow magically survive.
Games like City of Heroes explained that you had a teleporter that would save you when your vitals showed you were near death. I mean we are dealing with magical teleportation and mystical science, but hey.. makes sense in the game world itself.. REALISM.. I mean. IMMERSION!
GW2, explained that you don't really die, that what we see as death in the game, is really just being knocked unconscious and then you simply teleport away to a Waypoint.
Again. Magic.. so.. we don't worry about the "Realism" here, it's purely a matter of Immersion.
But again, even with death defying magic that allows us to be vaunted immortals, we still tend to expect common sense things from our own world, to exist in these high fantasy settings, again, like needing to trod through water.
But reality is, we don't want realistic games where our character needs to sleep, eat, piss, shit, wash their clothes, scratch their ass, and risk dying from drinking from a stream because it had parasites in it, and will most likely amount to joe average working a dead end job.
What many of us want is a world that makes sense collaboratively and in some cases generically, that brings us joy and fun to play in... where we can live out idealistic fantasies of being the hero or champion.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
People who roleplay usually only get on my nerves because they just repeat boring stereotypes. Oh every Darkelf is evil and every Dwarf is drunk and every Elf has sex with trees. How ... fascinating.
Other than that yes I do some roleplay, in the sense of working on finding good names for my characters and on the style of my characters. For example in Vanguard I made my Darkelf Cleric of the Domain (? Vanguard called that something else but I've forgotten what they called that) Death because of style. I also worked on finding gear that looked good and appropiate. Once Vanguard allowed that, anyway.
I'd argue the multiplayer RPG elements are fewer and fewer, with the focus shifting more towards a single player story telling experience filled with shorter play times.
Not to say RPG elements don't exist in that formula, but they're not why i play MMORPG's.
I think mmorpgs have always been RPG-lite. I think they tend to be grindy because grind is something everyone can do. You don't have to be smart. You don't have to have fast reflexes. You don't have to have an explorer-mindset. It's a way to even the playing field. I feel like ANY game that becomes multiplayer automatically must find ways to even the playing field. It doesn't matter if it uses stats or skills in the place of real, natural skills. Regardless of where gaps in player power or ability come from, multiplayer games always inevitably circle around to evening the playing field, thus creating a situation where something like grind might be considered a stopgap. Therer'e however many ways to even teh playing field, grind being just one small technique sometimes used.
I think it all boils down to multiplayer and large audiences. Both of these traits always seme to 'dumb' things donw, or cause the lowest common denominator to play a large role in determining the end result. This doesn't necessarily mean things are dumber, but they're definitely different, or more generic, compared to more personilized gameplay only achieved with niche, settings changes, modded or older games.
EXACTLY the opposite. No non-fighting related skills, less and less sandbox features, less Fantasy-World-Simulation but more and more instancing insta-joining and fast travel.
"Playing together" is only a quick jump in and out to do the Quest/Dungeon together and communication is hardly done.
Missing sandbox/politics also leads to Chat not being about whats going on in the Server but about RL stuff, or min-maxing, or people ranting.
Comments
My mind went immediately to bag space as you described your "outfits for every biome" idea. So I need 10 pairs of pants, 10 pairs of shoes, 10 shirts with nothing stackable because they are different.
It would be interesting to look deeper at "realism", but certainly a paper puzzle as I don't see any developer scrambling to change the tried and true formula currently in an excess of use
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Again.. the idea is to deal with and present the Fun aspects, without the Suck.
I mean, this idea is not new, it is an old idea, applied in a new way. Case in point, GW2 provides 3 free base loadouts that change by game mode, IE: Separate Loadouts for WvW, sPvP, & PvE.
Each Loadout allows you to fully set up the character, this includes gear, traitlines, utility abilities, everything, in short, you get to set up a whole new build for that gamemode, if you want.
You can also buy additional loadouts, and use them for other game styles, to use an example, on my Guard, I have my WvW, sPvP, and PvE (Which is only for Map Exploration), I have also set up a Loadout for doing Fractals/Dungeons.
My Mesmer has a loadout I set up just for Jump Puzzles, which they have traitlines, weapons, and gear that gives them the best advantage to complete jump puzzles.
My Engineer has a loadout just for doing HoT, with is a Juggernaut Flamethrower build.
Now, when it comes to the variations of PvE, I have to click which build I plan to use, but they automatically swap when I go to the various game modes like WvW and sPvP.
As I see it, It would be a small step to expand this Loadout idea to more nuanced triggers, like having a Loadout that triggers when you enter any of the Shiverpeaks zones (Cold nordic regions) , another for the Maguuma (Jungle-esque) then another for Ascalon (Hot dry Desert regions), another for Kryta (temperate regions), finally a more Biohazard survival Loadout for Orr (Land of death and undead), then they could add loadouts for the living story zones, the expansions, etc, etc.
So it's, it's just taking an existing idea, and applying it in a way that players might enjoy.
Then, simply a matter of adding environmental factors, like for example, while Norns who live in the Shiverpeaks would not need "Cold Weather" gear, as they naturally resilient, they would need special gear for the warm regions of Ascalon, so they don't pass out from heat exhaustion.
Equally so, Humans would need to invest in Cold Weather Gear, or risk freezing to death in the Shiverpeaks.
To be clear, "LFG" isn't a social aspect, it's a too to facilitate progression. Social aspects would be taverns for social interaction, stages to perform on, and other features/mechanics to accommodate or enhance socializing.
Absent "immersive" content such as weather requiring different gear probably has a very simple answer - storage. Requiring players to have multiple sets of gear makes it harder to sell storage and more of a pain to justify limited storage space.
As for other "immersive" features, you can thank every last online douchebag that abused the crap out of them, resulting in their removal.
- Killing NPCs
- stealing/breaking shop/town furniture and amenities
- placing items in the game world
- almost anything fire-related
- open world player-run venues
- public bulletin boards
- player-created books, flyers, and signage
Between douchebaggery and TTP, many of the socialization-supporting niceties have disappeared.- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Why isn't killing an NPC a crime against some social game entity?
With ramifications.
Especially in a city that players are a part of, who rely on said NPCs as shopkeeps and whatever.
Once upon a time....
What some players would do, is pull some NPC's, and if they hit anyone during the pull, that player would also get a faction hit if the NPC was killed.
So it was a great way for some evil races to troll people in cities like Freeport or Qeynos.
I feel like many MMORPG are basically RPG slapped on online worlds vs. the online world aspect being prominent. Just how the story and the players are not intrinsically necessary to complement each other to complete most of the game. The players and game world are just the back drop to the RPG game that could probsbly work offline.
An example would be easier to convey what you mean. If such game exist now.
What I think is going on, is that there is a difference between Immersion and Realism.
I think when players talk about Realism, they are really asking for Immersion, in short, they are looking for the game world to make sense, both an collaboratively way and a generic way.
In the Generic sense, they kind of expect things like water to appear and feel wet, to have at least some kind of effect on their character, be it, slowing down how fast they walk through water that us knee deep, to needing to swim through water that is deeper than they are tall. The idea of water having effect, would be a Generic for of Immersion, and makes the world they are playing in feel more realistic. This is often called Realism, but it really is just a means of immersion.
Just like rain, snow, etc, darkening the sky and obscuring vision.
Fire Burning things and giving off light.
These is Generic Immersion, things from our real world that we expect to also have carry over to the game world.
In Short, they expect that 2+2=4
However, in High Fantasy Worlds, where magic Exists, there is no true realism, as magic can bend the rules of nature.
Once we place magic, mysticism, super science, and all that into the game, it changes the whole dynamic of how the game functions and behaves and what becomes "Realistic"
Because once you start going in that direction, 2+2 can equal Fish.
Not to mention, most players don't want stark realism. They want high fantasy, they want an idealistic playground, that is why they are the Dragon Slayer not the generic Farmer that got eaten by the Dragon last week, which is how 99% of the population really ends up.
So, we start off with the players being "Heroic" they come out special, and destined, even if there is no story holding their hand telling them such, they are still the Hero's of the land, the stuff of legend, the thing that every peasant child wishes to become, and over time become wealthier than Elon Musk in the sense of the game world.
Sure there are games that buck that trend, and such, like Day Z for example, where you zone in as some pitiful sap that lived, and the goal is, try not to die too fast, but for the most part, when players get into the game, they are there to live out a fantasy. They are there to do heroic things, and become the stuff of legend.
So.. yah, they don't want to log into a MMO to do a 9-5 dead end job, which is what realism would be.
And don't get me started on things like, not dying, I mean, really, anything less than Perma-Death is just not realistic.
Ideally, I don't really think players want stark realism, I highly doubt they want to play a game that is not only Perma-Death, but where they watch their one and only character cry pitifully for help while defecating upon themselves as they succumb to fatal wounds.
So what players really what is for things to make sense while they are in the game world. No so much realism,. but, Immersion that makes sense.
If they can come back to life after being defeated, having lore behind that, why it happens, and the like, adds to the Immersion of the game, even if it is totally unrealistic to be cut in half and somehow magically survive.
Games like City of Heroes explained that you had a teleporter that would save you when your vitals showed you were near death. I mean we are dealing with magical teleportation and mystical science, but hey.. makes sense in the game world itself.. REALISM.. I mean. IMMERSION!
GW2, explained that you don't really die, that what we see as death in the game, is really just being knocked unconscious and then you simply teleport away to a Waypoint.
Again. Magic.. so.. we don't worry about the "Realism" here, it's purely a matter of Immersion.
But again, even with death defying magic that allows us to be vaunted immortals, we still tend to expect common sense things from our own world, to exist in these high fantasy settings, again, like needing to trod through water.
But reality is, we don't want realistic games where our character needs to sleep, eat, piss, shit, wash their clothes, scratch their ass, and risk dying from drinking from a stream because it had parasites in it, and will most likely amount to joe average working a dead end job.
What many of us want is a world that makes sense collaboratively and in some cases generically, that brings us joy and fun to play in... where we can live out idealistic fantasies of being the hero or champion.
No non-fighting related skills, less and less sandbox features, less Fantasy-World-Simulation but more and more instancing insta-joining and fast travel.
"Playing together" is only a quick jump in and out to do the Quest/Dungeon together and communication is hardly done.
Missing sandbox/politics also leads to Chat not being about whats going on in the Server but about RL stuff, or min-maxing, or people ranting.
1997 Meridian 59 'til 2019 ESO
Waiting for Camelot Unchained & Pantheon