Think of a crowdfunded game as a startup. And 90% of startups fail.
To get real backing from real investors, you will have to have both a good development plan, and a good business plan. Investors want to know how much money they will make off of their investment, and how soon they will make it. Otherwise, they'll invest in something else.
95% of start ups, I have worked in start ups and the issue is the management can't change from raising money to making a product to sell. There is a mind set change that needs to happen that doesn't.
Well CF MMOs are no where near a 95% fail rate, so they are actually bucking the norm. That actually gives me some hope.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The largest windfall I have seen with Crowd Funded games, is the people that put their dime in thinking they were somehow in control of the game, and expecting the game to be delivered overnight.
In all fairness their expectations were set by the developers who promised unrealistic delivery times in the first place.
MJ was an experienced dev lead with several projects under his belt. Being just an armchair developer I really questioned the validity of his two year delivery times but he claimed to have it all worked out, still I figured 4 or 5 years tops if it all goes sideways.
Is it my fault as we move into year 8 of development that I'm a bit whiff about the whole affair?
I don't think so, I'd put more of the blame on those who were roleplaying competent developers who basically were liars who said whatever they needed to in order to get larger funding.
I mean, who really would have tossed much in early if told up front it likely would be 7, 8 or even 10 plus years until full release?
My guess is not even CUs investors, but like most of us, in for a penny, in for a pound.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The largest windfall I have seen with Crowd Funded games, is the people that put their dime in thinking they were somehow in control of the game, and expecting the game to be delivered overnight.
This is a major reason I dislike crowdfunding games -- companies convincing ordinary people to give them money. A proper investor will have expectations for their money -- how much will it earn them, when will it pay out, security or ownership of the company, etc. Companies pursuing the CF route rely on attracting money without these 'conventional attachments'. It allows people to roleplay a moneyed investor, without providing any of the benefits.
Note to those thinking that a lack of oversight/accountability is a problem with the CF method: who would normally provide this level of oversight? That's right, the traditional investor. The CF developer wants nothing to do with the levels of accountability that the traditional investment methods provide. No deadlines that must be kept, no one looking over the development plans, no collateral, and no ramifications for failure. It's everything an independent company wants. Money without obligations.
Yes I agree with you, this is easily a management issue. Just because they have vision and have the capacity to make a great game. They are lacking management skills to run the company, set deadlines and are probably fiscally irresponsible.
Sometimes people have a great idea, but they lack the skills to bring it to market. I don't think its required to have investors, but investors do generally require good leadership in the company before sinking their money into it. They are investing in leadership just as much as the product. People that lack the ability must either hire someone that can, or not get the funding.
CF allows these poor managers to create their dream projects. This is what it looks like when you have zero good leadership. I am sure they been sitting behind a desk thinking their boss was an idiot their whole life. Now they get to see why management is needed.
The largest windfall I have seen with Crowd Funded games, is the people that put their dime in thinking they were somehow in control of the game, and expecting the game to be delivered overnight.
This is a major reason I dislike crowdfunding games -- companies convincing ordinary people to give them money. A proper investor will have expectations for their money -- how much will it earn them, when will it pay out, security or ownership of the company, etc. Companies pursuing the CF route rely on attracting money without these 'conventional attachments'. It allows people to roleplay a moneyed investor, without providing any of the benefits.
Note to those thinking that a lack of oversight/accountability is a problem with the CF method: who would normally provide this level of oversight? That's right, the traditional investor. The CF developer wants nothing to do with the levels of accountability that the traditional investment methods provide. No deadlines that must be kept, no one looking over the development plans, no collateral, and no ramifications for failure. It's everything an independent company wants. Money without obligations.
Yes I agree with you, this is easily a management issue. Just because they have vision and have the capacity to make a great game. They are lacking management skills to run the company, set deadlines and are probably fiscally irresponsible.
Sometimes people have a great idea, but they lack the skills to bring it to market. I don't think its required to have investors, but investors do generally require good leadership in the company before sinking their money into it. They are investing in leadership just as much as the product. People that lack the ability must either hire someone that can, or not get the funding.
CF allows these poor managers to create their dream projects. This is what it looks like when you have zero good leadership. I am sure they been sitting behind a desk thinking their boss was an idiot their whole life. Now they get to see why management is needed.
This has similarities to discussions I had about how MMOs changed in the early years. I saw that as a time when developers had passion while wanting to rake the money in. But then the money men took over and MMOs overall changed for the worse. I illustrated this by looking at the background of the CEO's and directors from before and after about 2005.
Those with counter arguments focused on the fact the companies team had little knowledge of how to run a business and long term that could be disastrous.
The big difference is that back then we were not crowd funding those games up front. You know for most of them I am not sure you could do any kind of pre-order or collectors edition. You got what you paid for after the reviews.
The largest windfall I have seen with Crowd Funded games, is the people that put their dime in thinking they were somehow in control of the game, and expecting the game to be delivered overnight.
In all fairness their expectations were set by the developers who promised unrealistic delivery times in the first place.
MJ was an experienced dev lead with several projects under his belt. Being just an armchair developer I really questioned the validity of his two year delivery times but he claimed to have it all worked out, still I figured 4 or 5 years tops if it all goes sideways.
Is it my fault as we move into year 8 of development that I'm a bit whiff about the whole affair?
I don't think so, I'd put more of the blame on those who were roleplaying competent developers who basically were liars who said whatever they needed to in order to get larger funding.
I mean, who really would have tossed much in early if told up front it likely would be 7, 8 or even 10 plus years until full release?
My guess is not even CUs investors, but like most of us, in for a penny, in for a pound.
Well first of all, a surprising number of people would put in the money, but those people would be looking at a fiscal ROI not some game to play.
And that is the problem.
The other thing is, I suppose, is why is the game taking so long. I get that someone who dumped their c-note or whatever into the project now thinks they get to smoke cigars with the big boys, and talk like they are on the board of directors, however, I wager none of them know how to ask the good questions.
Like for example:
I wager gamer's roleplaying backers are all like "Why is the game taking so long?" this is a ridiculous question, just FYI.
Or better yet, I wager some of them are even going so far as to say "You need to do things this way!" often the battle cry of someone that has never been in charge of a major project or large company.
The reality is, CF games are a shit show of people that invest a penny and think they are owned a pound.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Fundamentally, crowdfunding ask the customer to pay for a product before that product has been designed, produced, and completed. They've managed to transform the 'customer' into an 'investor' without the hassle of relinquishing any of the ownership.
Something about that just sits wrong with me.
It sits wrong with you because you don't understand what they are actually doing.
I've given money to numerous arts organizations as well as charities. I don't expect anything back and while I hope they are successful I am not under any illusion they will be or even if they will continue to exist.
I strongly suspect you have never done this (which in and of itself is no big deal) and therefore don't have the perspective of someone who has. That's why you jump to the only thing you can relate to which is investor.
Now, in some ways the person is an investor but not in the traditional financial sense. They are an investor in that they are investing solely in the success of the endeavor.
But that concept is a hard pill to swallow for a good many people because they can't let go of the fact that the word "investment" is used in other contexts other than reaping a financial benefit.
There is a huge difference between donating to a good cause like a charity and donating to a developer for a product. One is knowing you won't get anything in return other than a feeling you tried to help someone in need. The other is investing your money for a product. Just because you aren't giving for monetary compensation doesn't negate the meaning of the word investing. That just takes away their responsibility and accountability if you just shrug it off. This is also why the state of kickstarter/crowdfunding is so horrible as it is with developers scamming their fanbase left and right.
Fundamentally, crowdfunding ask the customer to pay for a product before that product has been designed, produced, and completed. They've managed to transform the 'customer' into an 'investor' without the hassle of relinquishing any of the ownership.
Something about that just sits wrong with me.
It sits wrong with you because you don't understand what they are actually doing.
I've given money to numerous arts organizations as well as charities. I don't expect anything back and while I hope they are successful I am not under any illusion they will be or even if they will continue to exist.
I strongly suspect you have never done this (which in and of itself is no big deal) and therefore don't have the perspective of someone who has. That's why you jump to the only thing you can relate to which is investor.
Now, in some ways the person is an investor but not in the traditional financial sense. They are an investor in that they are investing solely in the success of the endeavor.
But that concept is a hard pill to swallow for a good many people because they can't let go of the fact that the word "investment" is used in other contexts other than reaping a financial benefit.
There is a huge difference between donating to a good cause like a charity and donating to a developer for a product. One is knowing you won't get anything in return other than a feeling you tried to help someone in need. The other is investing your money for a product. Just because you aren't giving for monetary compensation doesn't negate the meaning of the word investing. That just takes away their responsibility and accountability if you just shrug it off. This is also why the state of kickstarter/crowdfunding is so horrible as it is with developers scamming their fanbase left and right.
There is a difference between donating to a charity for those in need and patronizing the arts. Even then the lines are often blurred. Many charities for medical causes are backed by large corporations. Why does the average citizen need to donate their paltry income for medical research or even feeding the hungry when mega corporations and rich governments all over the world could flood these needy causes with more resources than individuals ever could? Maybe we should be ranting about corporate and government ethics (on another site like reddit lol) rather than try and make flawed comparisons to funding the arts.
Throwing money at Kickstarter is like an arts patronage. It's up to each individual to make a decision whether they want to support that or not.
Big problems and flaws have arisen because there is little to no accountability or oversight. Big companies have started using these as a way to source cheep seed interest which is also a problem for many. Additionally, gamers buy into these on the ill-conceived notion that they're an investor or major stake holder guiding the development. On top of all that once an MMO does actually launch it's now beholden to these gamer-stakeholders who can influence the studio and game direction poorly (very poorly).
I see what you are going at, but I do not think it fits neatly into that box. When you donate to the arts you aren't promised anything in return. With these Crowdfunded games they actually promise you stuff. When you go on a website and you click on their store and you purchase an item, be it their game currency, a digital horse, a ship, or something else... they are selling you a product.
To me, it would fit your description if there was just one big DONATE button with a list of project goals or something similar. As soon as they start down the path of "You give us X money and we will give you Y product" IMHO that no longer applies.
Also, for your last part... I think it traces back to Pathfinder Online and Ryan (Steve Jobs of gaming) Dancey. He continually pushed the term "Crowdforging" which he described as:
Crowdforging is the term we've coined that reflects a development process we think is unique in the history of MMOs.
Crowdforging means that we are going to engage the players directly as a part of the design process. Sandboxes allow this level of deep integration because unlike a theme park, a sandbox game is not feature complete when people start playing it.
During the initial phase of the game, which we call Early Enrollment, players are going to be involved in helping select features to be developed, prioritize those selections, and give input on how they're implemented and how they are balanced against other game features.
Crowdforging represents the next step in game development; the idea that the players have a vested interest in how the game is designed and have earned a seat at the table where those decisions are made.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I think crowd funding went wrong when they don't list the right prices for the work .
If they price them 10 for thing that worth 8 , then it maybe real
But if they price them 5 for thing that worth 10 , then it's a scam
Even years ago , i know they won't make it end , because the number of funding they asking kind of low for something big that they promise .
And it's a risky investment since there are no law to put them in jail if they don't follow the promise .
Also i never invest in any crow funded mmorpg since most of them are suck at the design . Ether graphic style not my taste (i rather prefer 2d games) or gameplay sound like a mess .
i think most started out with good intentions, but lets be realistic, mmorpg's eq, eq2, swg, wow, all done in under 5 years.
Here we are twice that for SC, Panth, CU and nothing but weak demo's or parts?
Hmm whats the commonality here?
All industry vets
They've been there done that, that's good right?
Experience up the wazoo, that should be helpful af, right?
They been given the creativity freedom they claimed to be the problem, here is all the money you need right up front, everything taken care of, just create, can't get better than that right?
Oh man this is going to be some amazing ip's, right?
A decade later, al we get is weak demo's or parts of a game?
I seriously cannot express enough, they have no drive for the payout as you all payed them out already.
This is 3 we thought would blow us away, disappointed the most.
My faith is my shield! - Turalyon 2022
Your legend ends here and now! - (Battles Won Long Ago)
Naive gaming crowd ignored the fact that scum of the Earth is attracted by free money. So as crowdfunding became popular so did scummy leeches jump on the gravy train. And this is why the entire industry is tainted as right now there are many more scammers than people with genuine games to publish.
No fate but what we make, so make me a ham sandwich please.
i think most started out with good intentions, but lets be realistic, mmorpg's eq, eq2, swg, wow, all done in under 5 years.
I used to think that, but when confronted with questions related to their extraordinarily short timeline and/or budget most of these guys defended them to the hilt. Even going so far as to mock the questioners in some cases.
I no longer know if this disconnect was simply utter incompetence or actual fraud, but honestly at this point I don’t even know what’s worse.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I remember on Shark Tank once when a couple people tried pitching a video game (cant remember if it was single player or MMO) to the sharks. A couple of them said "I'm out" before they even started the pitch. I think it was Mark Cuban that said video games are the worst investments ever and he wouldn't even consider it.
Something I've seen happen over and over is what I call "Crash and Burn development."
Somebody says they can do the project in a year, but they end up taking 2 years, so they "crashed and burned".
So along comes a new guy who says "I can do it in a year", and senior mgmt believes them. It takes them 2 years anyway.
The best case is when the project takes 2 years, and the next time the project leader says it will take 2 years, the senior mgmt believes the 2 year figure. Usually, however, senior mgmt falls for the new guy who says HE can do it 1 year.
Something I've seen happen over and over is what I call "Crash and Burn development."
Somebody says they can do the project in a year, but they end up taking 2 years, so they "crashed and burned".
So along comes a new guy who says "I can do it in a year", and senior mgmt believes them. It takes them 2 years anyway.
The best case is when the project takes 2 years, and the next time the project leader says it will take 2 years, the senior mgmt believes the 2 year figure. Usually, however, senior mgmt falls for the new guy who says HE can do it 1 year.
A programmer always underestimates the time a task will take, and frequently overstates their skill. Project estimation is a separate skill from coding and development. Management that is focused on a deadline is only concerned with the time and cost, so the SWAG of the development team is too often believed over the detailed and accurate project plan.
An old adage in software engineering is that you can know Cost, Delivery and Functionality of any project, just not all 3 of those before the project is done. Accounting is worried about the Cost, Marketing about the Delivery, and the Customers about the Functionality. Three masters, one product, who wins?
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
I never have Crowd funded. But i do think of it as an investment.
You crowdfund a game and based on how much you give them, you get the game and some starter benefits that other people dont get.
You are investing money for enhanced entertainment down the road. I have always looked at CF as an investment, it just isnt money in equals more money out like stocks. It is money in equals a game you want and am early advantage.
Also, in project entropia they sell shares that came out at $100 per share with 15% ROI. That was 10 years ago, those shares are worth $240 now.
If i bought 1000 shares for 240k, id get about $1,200 profit per month.
Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
Comments
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
MJ was an experienced dev lead with several projects under his belt. Being just an armchair developer I really questioned the validity of his two year delivery times but he claimed to have it all worked out, still I figured 4 or 5 years tops if it all goes sideways.
Is it my fault as we move into year 8 of development that I'm a bit whiff about the whole affair?
I don't think so, I'd put more of the blame on those who were roleplaying competent developers who basically were liars who said whatever they needed to in order to get larger funding.
I mean, who really would have tossed much in early if told up front it likely would be 7, 8 or even 10 plus years until full release?
My guess is not even CUs investors, but like most of us, in for a penny, in for a pound.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Yes I agree with you, this is easily a management issue. Just because they have vision and have the capacity to make a great game. They are lacking management skills to run the company, set deadlines and are probably fiscally irresponsible.
Sometimes people have a great idea, but they lack the skills to bring it to market. I don't think its required to have investors, but investors do generally require good leadership in the company before sinking their money into it. They are investing in leadership just as much as the product. People that lack the ability must either hire someone that can, or not get the funding.
CF allows these poor managers to create their dream projects. This is what it looks like when you have zero good leadership. I am sure they been sitting behind a desk thinking their boss was an idiot their whole life. Now they get to see why management is needed.
Those with counter arguments focused on the fact the companies team had little knowledge of how to run a business and long term that could be disastrous.
The big difference is that back then we were not crowd funding those games up front. You know for most of them I am not sure you could do any kind of pre-order or collectors edition. You got what you paid for after the reviews.
And that is the problem.
The other thing is, I suppose, is why is the game taking so long. I get that someone who dumped their c-note or whatever into the project now thinks they get to smoke cigars with the big boys, and talk like they are on the board of directors, however, I wager none of them know how to ask the good questions.
Like for example:
I wager gamer's roleplaying backers are all like "Why is the game taking so long?" this is a ridiculous question, just FYI.
Or better yet, I wager some of them are even going so far as to say "You need to do things this way!" often the battle cry of someone that has never been in charge of a major project or large company.
The reality is, CF games are a shit show of people that invest a penny and think they are owned a pound.
MurderHerd
To me, it would fit your description if there was just one big DONATE button with a list of project goals or something similar. As soon as they start down the path of "You give us X money and we will give you Y product" IMHO that no longer applies.
Also, for your last part... I think it traces back to Pathfinder Online and Ryan (Steve Jobs of gaming) Dancey. He continually pushed the term "Crowdforging" which he described as:
Crowdforging is the term we've coined that reflects a development process we think is unique in the history of MMOs.
Crowdforging means that we are going to engage the players directly as a part of the design process. Sandboxes allow this level of deep integration because unlike a theme park, a sandbox game is not feature complete when people start playing it.
During the initial phase of the game, which we call Early Enrollment, players are going to be involved in helping select features to be developed, prioritize those selections, and give input on how they're implemented and how they are balanced against other game features.
Crowdforging represents the next step in game development; the idea that the players have a vested interest in how the game is designed and have earned a seat at the table where those decisions are made.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
No fate but what we make, so make me a ham sandwich please.
I no longer know if this disconnect was simply utter incompetence or actual fraud, but honestly at this point I don’t even know what’s worse.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
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2025: 48 years on the Net.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
You crowdfund a game and based on how much you give them, you get the game and some starter benefits that other people dont get.
You are investing money for enhanced entertainment down the road. I have always looked at CF as an investment, it just isnt money in equals more money out like stocks. It is money in equals a game you want and am early advantage.
Also, in project entropia they sell shares that came out at $100 per share with 15% ROI. That was 10 years ago, those shares are worth $240 now.
If i bought 1000 shares for 240k, id get about $1,200 profit per month.
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
The only thing I'm coming up with is taking money from people. The answer to what they did wrong is pretty much everything else.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
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