On one hand, I see the importance of level scaling. On the other hand, I see it's current implementation half assed.
Another example is the dark souls games. Even if you get stronger, the starter enemies can still damage you if you're careless. However, you can kill them much faster, or instantly as now you're much more stronger than before.
Yesterday while playing fallout 76, I was wandering around the map and got a prompt for a fraternity house quest. There was some new nuka cola mixture and I drank it. Apparently, when you drink this type of cola you get teleported somewhere randomly in the map. I got teleported to the far right and was confused on what to do. Being level 25, I knew I shouldn't be in this part of the map just yet, however due to scaling I was able to fend all creatures I saw.
When wondering in the area, I was met with wendigos. New type of creature in the game. The music changes as if you're fighting a "boss", and they give a ton of loot on death. Did it hit hardish? sure. Was I able to effortlessly beat it with starter weapons? yes again.
See, I don't like that. I should have been scared shitless of dying and having to go back there to get my scrap. Due to scaling, instead of leaving the area right away, I wandered around and finished some quests before leaving.
I believe scaling should meet certain criteria before its imposed on the player. The current implementation in this game, is not one I'm fond of. Hence the thread.
Well, I guess it doesn't hurt repeating stuff from time to time...
Repeating, in the way my take hasn't changed over the years, I can only post the same every time:
scaling is a useful tool in the hands of the players, and option is king.
Either give it to us, players, as a tool, or don't even add it into the game.
-Best case, players can scale everywhere, at will. (old Cryptic games for example, they even have a difficulty slider on top of that. Everything's in the players' hands)
-Second best, players can scale at will in instances (dungeons, skirmishes, raids), but the open world is "set", with occasional randomness to spruce things up. LotRO is like that (you set the mob levels in instances, in the open you can find level 50 camp in the middle of level 20 zone, wandering level 100 world boss within level 35 mobs, etc).
-Third, when the whole game is "set", both the world and the instances have their levels and players can at most overlevel or undergear if they want to adjust the difficulty.
And that's the bottom line, nothing's below - for me, at least.
"Do we really need level scaling in our MMOs?" Can only speak for myself, I definitely don't need it, on the contrary.
If devs in their sheer stupidity decide to add an overall and general, lukewarm, One Tamriel-esque forced scaling bullcrap in their games, I just delete and never again touch that garbage.
On one hand, I see the importance of level scaling. On the other hand, I see it's current implementation half assed.
Another example is the dark souls games. Even if you get stronger, the starter enemies can still damage you if you're careless. However, you can kill them much faster, or instantly as now you're much more stronger than before.
Given that there is a trade-off (having a stronger sense of progression for no scaling vs keeping all content relevant by downscaling) it is always going to be down to player preference - there is no wrong or right.
I actually found GW2's implementation brilliant and well thought of, like @Ungood mentioned. You were downscaled but would still get loot relevant to your actual level, and your extra skills and gear meant you were still stronger than someone who was not downscaled.
The DS example seems to me like part perception and part limiting the power increase. Instead of going from 1 to 100 you go from 50 to 60, so the difference between starting level and cap is much smaller (never played DS so could be wrong here).
In a dark souls game, you don't "level" per se, but you spend souls (experience points) in increasing your attributes (i.e. strength, dexterity, and so on). So, in a way, you don't get stronger like in mmos where every level increases your attributes. You decide how your character is going to be. If you want it to have more health, you improve vitality, if you want damage, you either go strength or dexterity.
That is why even early mobs can deal damage to you. The only other factor in improvement is what gear or weapons you decide to use and upgrade. In these style of games, the defence stat is not going to make you a god. Perhaps, be able to take 2-3 more hits before dying.
Unless they changed it (or I forgot how it worked), the GW2 system was in the right direction. Your character was the one that scaled, not the enemies. Going in harder areas means you're going to have a challenge.
I know, I know, another thread? This week I'm in the mood of expressing topics related to mmos that I often ponder about haha.
At least your threads are interesting and don't try to belittle those not agreeing with you
Scaling when done well can be a major positive point for a game. In ESO for instance, it's what made me adopt the game, and it's what makes the game NOT a cookie cutter WoW clone too.
You say you didn't like the scaling in ESO because it removed the feeling of progression and the harshness of the environment. I don't agree.
Make a newbie. Go into a Delve. You will most likely get your ass handed to you, some spots will be very hard to pass. Go into a public (shared open world) dungeon then, and it's even worse. Try to kill the harder surface mobs, like even a simple Mammoth, it will be very hard for a freshly created character. But as you progress, get new skills and later champion points, all those tasks will become easier, you will end being able to solo those dungeons too.
I personally like it better than the WoW clones where you get your ass handed to you by a level 20 bat just because you are level 5. In ESO, mob power makes sense, a bat will be weaker than a mammoth who will in turn be weaker than a dragon. To me, it enhances my immersion.
Truthfully, I never could stick with ESO for long. So you could be right. I just couldn't enjoy the combat. I really despise this weapon switching some mmos are incorporating in their games.
I know this is important to a lot of players but I just don't get it. We have far more serious issues with MMOs than this. I have played both with and without scaling, I have to say both types have their negatives, none of which to me were a game breaker.
Well, I guess it doesn't hurt repeating stuff from time to time...
Repeating, in the way my take hasn't changed over the years, I can only post the same every time:
scaling is a useful tool in the hands of the players, and option is king.
Either give it to us, players, as a tool, or don't even add it into the game.
-Best case, players can scale everywhere, at will. (old Cryptic games for example, they even have a difficulty slider on top of that. Everything's in the players' hands)
-Second best, players can scale at will in instances (dungeons, skirmishes, raids), but the open world is "set", with occasional randomness to spruce things up. LotRO is like that (you set the mob levels in instances, in the open you can find level 50 camp in the middle of level 20 zone, wandering level 100 world boss within level 35 mobs, etc).
-Third, when the whole game is "set", both the world and the instances have their levels and players can at most overlevel or undergear if they want to adjust the difficulty.
And that's the bottom line, nothing's below - for me, at least.
"Do we really need level scaling in our MMOs?" Can only speak for myself, I definitely don't need it, on the contrary.
If devs in their sheer stupidity decide to add an overall and general, lukewarm, One Tamriel-esque forced scaling bullcrap in their games, I just delete and never again touch that garbage.
I don't like it as an option. That means players are playing the content difficulty at different levels. It just doesn't fit right in a MMO world. SP games? Sure, who cares.
I know this is important to a lot of players but I just don't get it. We have far more serious issues with MMOs than this. I have played both with and without scaling, I have to say both types have their negatives, none of which to me were a game breaker.
It's to try and spice some conversations back on this site. These three threads I created are just things I ponder about when playing mmos. Sure, there's more serious issues, but even something as simple as level scaling could have an impact on the population in the long run.
Instead of going for the problem as a whole, you separate it into fragments, and focus on them individually.
I don't like it as an option. That means players are playing the content difficulty at different levels. It just doesn't fit right in a MMO world. SP games? Sure, who cares.
I always put option above mandatory, but tastes differ. However,
"That means players are playing the content difficulty at different levels. " is rather
That means players have the option for playing the content difficulty at different levels.
You seem to forget players already do that, playing content above or beyond their levels, adding and removing gear, changing their builds, etc. since they have the option for that. Scaling as a tool just widen these options.
As I see, exactly forced scaling is what ain't fitting to MMORPGs and has the single player game quality of "this is how you will play the game, no matter what".
For me flexibility, theory-crafting if you like to call it, is an integral part of the game. When devs play the "know-all", hammering into the game one certain way of "this fits for a large part of our players so this is how everyone should play" no variations, take it or leave it - I just leave it.
scaling is a useful tool in the hands of the players, and option is king.
Either give it to us, players, as a tool, or don't even add it into the game.
Given that this is an MMO, if you give the option to the players the default choice most of the times for most of the players will be to turn it off for efficiency, apart from exceptions (fun runs, content creation). I would count this as a no-scaling game.
In a sense it is, but since I'm fine with no-scaling as well, I don't mind. You can look at it as regular non-scaled game with additional options.
And based on CO/CoH, it ain't over-used for efficiency either, it used exactly what it is intended for: low levels participating in high level content, or get help from other players for their current content; testing different builds, etc.
ed: I should add that above just applies for the level scaling, the additional difficulty slider only works upwards (maybe CoH had one notch down to easier as well? honestly, don't remember), as in turning the difficulty up
Can't really used for fast track, but if you're capable of handling it, could be seen as boosted efficiency, due to the better loot you get on increased difficulty.
I know this is important to a lot of players but I just don't get it. We have far more serious issues with MMOs than this. I have played both with and without scaling, I have to say both types have their negatives, none of which to me were a game breaker.
It's to try and spice some conversations back on this site. These three threads I created are just things I ponder about when playing mmos. Sure, there's more serious issues, but even something as simple as level scaling could have an impact on the population in the long run.
Instead of going for the problem as a whole, you separate it into fragments, and focus on them individually.
The #1 issue is to remove the bad effects of the level grind from MMORPGs. The main one is the division of players because of those huge power gaps, which ruin any long term associations for most players. It also ruins any real economic game play beyond buying and selling at the Auction House (long term associations, contracts, economic planning, etc.). Another prime negative is the useless content once it's levelled past.
That's the reason for Scaling.
But Scaling content comes with some bad effects too, primarily it removes most of the actual progression that players earn.
So in effect, the whole Level grind system (scaled or not) is "damned if you do, damned if you don't."
If you want more depth in your MMOs, besides just running quests and Hack & Slash, then these games need to change from the D&D system that was designed for small groups. If you want a game where much more content matters, is playable, more interesting, and players and Guilds actually mix on a grand scale, where the entire world has constant meaning, change, and interests in many forms, then it has to change.
On the other hand, if you like comatose Rinse and Repeat game play (nothing wrong with that if you're a zombie), then none of this is meaningful. Just don't take a head shot, ya know? (I'm teasing. )
If I understand you correctly, it would be like this...???
You start out at X vs. all MOBs. You progress to X+ vs. some, but drop to X- vs. others. Or you are X+ for a while and then drop to X- for an amount of time.
Is that the basics of it?
If so, I don't care for it because there's no real progression, you are simply redefining your character at point X overall.
I just want an interesting system that limits those huge Power Gaps that do so much harm to the game experience in all ways but raw god-mode Power.
Day 1: You can only do single target DPS
Day 10: You've progressed, and can now do single target dps OR aoe dps
Day 20: You've progressed, and can now do single target dps OR aoe dps OR burst dps
Day 30: You've progressed, and can now do single target dps OR aoe dps OR burst dps OR damage over time
note: at any time, you can mix-and-match, have some single target and some aoe, forming a hybrid that is more flexible but less efficient in each specific focus.
Best example of this in practice is online shooters. The more you play, the more guns you unlock. The new guns aren't necessarily better or worse, just different. You can only use one gun at a time, so balance is maintained, but by unlocking more of them you can find the perfect playstyle for you (so better game experience for the player) or you can select a gun that might be better for the specific map you're on (like choosing a rapid fire smg for a close quarters map, or a sniper for a more open map).
Replace the guns in the above example with skillsets and gearsets in an rpg, and you'll begin to understand what im aiming for.
I can see where that can add a lot of strategy to combat. Especially in groups, even for a pair of players. Two players who play together a lot can develop several strategies for great effect.
MOB AI would enhance the fun a lot. I love it when a MOB does what you didn't expect, which is not seen after you've seen them before. That's got to change.
1) That the level 5 orc which kicked your butt when you were level 2 has no chance in hell to kill you at all now that you are level 20, despite using the same bow and arrows which can pierce human flesh ?
2) That the level 5 orc is still hurting you at level 20, much less of course since you now wear better armor, are more trained and have more skills and dodge capabilities, but he would still kill you if you stood still without defending yourself.
I personally prefer version 2), which is more realistic and immersive.
I prefer option 3:
The level 5 orc can still hurt you when you're level 20, but if you go fight a level 50 dragon while level 20, you stand no chance of even killing it, let alone surviving the fight.
The level 5 orc can still hurt you when you're level 20, but if you go fight a level 50 dragon while level 20, you stand no chance of even killing it, let alone surviving the fight.
That's exactly the ESO system. Dragons are things you will need help to kill, no matter your level actually.
The dragon is just an example. It could be a bandit wearing I don't know enchanted armour or something high level players can use. The point is; if that enemy is a lot higher than you, than you shouldn't stand a chance of beating it.
I don't know exactly how it is in ESO, but I'm basing my logic from Fallout 76 system. Yesterday I beat like 4 wendigos that dropped me level 45 gear while I'm still level 25. That type of scaling is what I'm talking about.
It's more like harder mobs will drop you higher quality items of your level.
As I said, ESO's scaling is one of the best designed of the genre.
From your response, I'm deducing that you can still kill them due to them being scaled lower. Sure they might be tougher, but you can. Well, that's not what I'd like for scaling in mmos if I have to be honest.
If some areas shouldn't be visited while lower level due to tougher creatures (since mmos still use levels), then so be it. The notion of being able to go anywhere you want, anytime you want (at least for me), shouldn't mean you CAN also beat them.
Then we have the issue of progression yet again. When I get new shiny gear, it won't feel as impactful. I'll still be fighting the same creatures that are simply scaled higher.
The level 5 orc can still hurt you when you're level 20, but if you go fight a level 50 dragon while level 20, you stand no chance of even killing it, let alone surviving the fight.
That's exactly the ESO system. Dragons are things you will need help to kill, no matter your level actually.
The dragon is just an example. It could be a bandit wearing I don't know enchanted armour or something high level players can use. The point is; if that enemy is a lot higher than you, than you shouldn't stand a chance of beating it.
I don't know exactly how it is in ESO, but I'm basing my logic from Fallout 76 system. Yesterday I beat like 4 wendigos that dropped me level 45 gear while I'm still level 25. That type of scaling is what I'm talking about.
Mobs won't drop you level 45 armor if you are 25.
It's more like harder mobs will drop you higher quality items of your level.
As I said, ESO's scaling is one of the best designed of the genre.
From your response, I'm deducing that you can still kill them due to them being scaled lower. Sure they might be tougher, but you can. Well, that's not what I'd like for scaling in mmos if I have to be honest.
If some areas shouldn't be visited while lower level due to tougher creatures (since mmos still use levels), then so be it. The notion of being able to go anywhere you want, anytime you want, at least for me, shouldn't mean you CAN also beat them.
And some areas indeed shouldn't be visited while lower level, at least alone, or you will have your ass handed to you big time.
There seems to be a misconception that scaling in ESO means that at level 1, you can just go everywhere and kill the same things you can kill at 50, which is totally wrong.
Obviously not at level 1. Again, I didn't stick long in ESO so I'm unfamiliar how much the scaling impacts the progression to cap. With that said, unless things changed, getting enough skills in your skill bar doesn't take that long, no? Getting decent gear (green/blue) also doesn't take long if you look in chests or perhaps auction if you have the money.
Wouldn't that be sufficient to go in tougher areas and still be able to fend off the creatures there due to scaling?
The level 5 orc can still hurt you when you're level 20, but if you go fight a level 50 dragon while level 20, you stand no chance of even killing it, let alone surviving the fight.
That's exactly the ESO system. Dragons are things you will need help to kill, no matter your level actually.
The dragon is just an example. It could be a bandit wearing I don't know enchanted armour or something high level players can use. The point is; if that enemy is a lot higher than you, than you shouldn't stand a chance of beating it.
I don't know exactly how it is in ESO, but I'm basing my logic from Fallout 76 system. Yesterday I beat like 4 wendigos that dropped me level 45 gear while I'm still level 25. That type of scaling is what I'm talking about.
Mobs won't drop you level 45 armor if you are 25.
It's more like harder mobs will drop you higher quality items of your level.
As I said, ESO's scaling is one of the best designed of the genre.
From your response, I'm deducing that you can still kill them due to them being scaled lower. Sure they might be tougher, but you can. Well, that's not what I'd like for scaling in mmos if I have to be honest.
If some areas shouldn't be visited while lower level due to tougher creatures (since mmos still use levels), then so be it. The notion of being able to go anywhere you want, anytime you want, at least for me, shouldn't mean you CAN also beat them.
And some areas indeed shouldn't be visited while lower level, at least alone, or you will have your ass handed to you big time.
There seems to be a misconception that scaling in ESO means that at level 1, you can just go everywhere and kill the same things you can kill at 50, which is totally wrong.
Well, what level would you have to be to have a chance to kill a level 50? I'll get to the point... Does the game really need al those numbers? HPs, Damage, etc.? Because it scales, so why spend time to build the code in the first place? And if you don't have the big numbers that are removed with Scaling, then you don't need the Scaling code too. It seems like a lot of costly work for nothing.
The level 5 orc can still hurt you when you're level 20, but if you go fight a level 50 dragon while level 20, you stand no chance of even killing it, let alone surviving the fight.
That's exactly the ESO system. Dragons are things you will need help to kill, no matter your level actually.
The dragon is just an example. It could be a bandit wearing I don't know enchanted armour or something high level players can use. The point is; if that enemy is a lot higher than you, than you shouldn't stand a chance of beating it.
I don't know exactly how it is in ESO, but I'm basing my logic from Fallout 76 system. Yesterday I beat like 4 wendigos that dropped me level 45 gear while I'm still level 25. That type of scaling is what I'm talking about.
Mobs won't drop you level 45 armor if you are 25.
It's more like harder mobs will drop you higher quality items of your level.
As I said, ESO's scaling is one of the best designed of the genre.
From your response, I'm deducing that you can still kill them due to them being scaled lower. Sure they might be tougher, but you can. Well, that's not what I'd like for scaling in mmos if I have to be honest.
If some areas shouldn't be visited while lower level due to tougher creatures (since mmos still use levels), then so be it. The notion of being able to go anywhere you want, anytime you want, at least for me, shouldn't mean you CAN also beat them.
And some areas indeed shouldn't be visited while lower level, at least alone, or you will have your ass handed to you big time.
There seems to be a misconception that scaling in ESO means that at level 1, you can just go everywhere and kill the same things you can kill at 50, which is totally wrong.
Obviously not at level 1. Again, I didn't stick long in ESO so I'm unfamiliar how much the scaling impacts the progression to cap. With that said, unless things changed, getting enough skills in your skill bar doesn't take that long, no? Getting decent gear (green/blue) also doesn't take long if you look in chests or perhaps auction if you have the money.
Wouldn't that be sufficient to go in tougher areas and still be able to fend off the creatures there due to scaling?
Nope it won't.
Not to mention that on your first character, without any champion points, you will be weak as hell.
Well, I'll take your word for it as I have no experience with the game long term.
I still would prefer something similar to GW2, with perhaps having the scaling system tied to the monster itself. Enemies like bunnies and whatnot couldn't scale higher than a predefined level, and enemies like dragons that are supposedly mid to endgame don't scale lower than a predefined level.
If I understand you correctly, it would be like this...???
You start out at X vs. all MOBs. You progress to X+ vs. some, but drop to X- vs. others. Or you are X+ for a while and then drop to X- for an amount of time.
Is that the basics of it?
If so, I don't care for it because there's no real progression, you are simply redefining your character at point X overall.
I just want an interesting system that limits those huge Power Gaps that do so much harm to the game experience in all ways but raw god-mode Power.
Day 1: You can only do single target DPS
Day 10: You've progressed, and can now do single target dps OR aoe dps
Day 20: You've progressed, and can now do single target dps OR aoe dps OR burst dps
Day 30: You've progressed, and can now do single target dps OR aoe dps OR burst dps OR damage over time
note: at any time, you can mix-and-match, have some single target and some aoe, forming a hybrid that is more flexible but less efficient in each specific focus.
Best example of this in practice is online shooters. The more you play, the more guns you unlock. The new guns aren't necessarily better or worse, just different. You can only use one gun at a time, so balance is maintained, but by unlocking more of them you can find the perfect playstyle for you (so better game experience for the player) or you can select a gun that might be better for the specific map you're on (like choosing a rapid fire smg for a close quarters map, or a sniper for a more open map).
Replace the guns in the above example with skillsets and gearsets in an rpg, and you'll begin to understand what im aiming for.
I can see where that can add a lot of strategy to combat. Especially in groups, even for a pair of players. Two players who play together a lot can develop several strategies for great effect.
MOB AI would enhance the fun a lot. I love it when a MOB does what you didn't expect, which is not seen after you've seen them before. That's got to change.
Indeed, mob AI could shake things up and make encounters more dynamic. You have to be careful with too much variation or randomness; players need good feedback from the game in order to feel like they can both prepare and react properly. Not saying it can't be done, just that increased AI can sometimes reduce the fun. Predictability gives you something to measure yourself against, you can see your own progress as you get better and better against the enemy.
Anyway, you're totally right about the various synergies that my system aims to implement.
I'd like to give you another example of how my system would help players get together and play together, whilst still providing motivation to progress.
Imagine a game based on the trinity (i want more, but lets keep it simple for now!)
When you start out, you can only do single target dps, single target tanking and single target healing.
Now imagine an "endgame" raid, typical of what you'd find in most themeparks.
A newbie, with just single target abilities, would still be able to join in. The DPSer could still beat on the boss, the tank could still off-tank, or maybe even stick on the boss. The healer could still heal up the tank.
However, a raid comprised just of newbies would fail, or at least have an extremely difficult time. You'd want some AoE DPS involved to help out with large waves of adds. You'd want AoE healers to help deal with splash damage etc.
Such a design should, I hope, provide ample motivation to keep progressing whilst not excluding others who haven't progressed as far as you.
[sorry for the off-topic, none of this was about scaling]
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr82 Black Orc | Scrotling rr7X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr7X Shaman
Scaling is lazy and a dumb idea,completely ruins immersion,makes everything in the game just look like fake computer code.Oh so you beat that Dragon eh,wow must be difficult what level were you,oh i was level 5....huh?Yeah that level 60 Dragon you fought and lost to was only level 5 when i fought it...lmao,,,sigh.Furthermore the OBVIOUS,how can you possibly scale an enemy without completely changing it?
So well written combat systems could allow a group of players at level 10 to defeat a level 50 mob.Now obviously it has to be VERY difficult or you'll just break the system and defeat the purpose of a more difficult enemy.
So HOW is this accomplished?Well without typing out every last bit of code and systems,i'll sum it up with a few notes.So these notes i will use is based on the theory the Dragon foe is extremely to near impossible to defeat.
1 The code should use an ARC that ranges from 1% to 99% give or take 1-3% either way.it is not just one number in the arc but a RANGE.So your range if VERY difficult is as I mentioned maybe 1-3% to hit.
2 Factor in weaknesses,such as mob is weak to Swords or maybe fire,that raises your % on the arc from maybe 1-3% up to 3-5%.
3 Factor in SKILL,either the weapon skill or the spell/ability skill level.If you are at max skill for your level then there is no penalty in the arc range.
4 Gear should NOT be an item level,that is just a super dumb idea by a really bad developer named Blizzard.Instead your gear should have a chance to PROC and how you want that system to work is up to you.Example of procs would be a double hit or a triple hit and if your weapon has something like STUN or sleep or poison etc etc,by hitting more often you have a better chance to hit.
5 Use the BOUNCE theory.I am not going to write out a whole scenario,i am pretty sure most understand the bounce idea by bouncing hate from player to player spread a part a fair distance.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
On one hand, I see the importance of level scaling. On the other hand, I see it's current implementation half assed.
Another example is the dark souls games. Even if you get stronger, the starter enemies can still damage you if you're careless. However, you can kill them much faster, or instantly as now you're much more stronger than before.
Given that there is a trade-off (having a stronger sense of progression for no scaling vs keeping all content relevant by downscaling) it is always going to be down to player preference - there is no wrong or right.
I actually found GW2's implementation brilliant and well thought of, like @Ungood mentioned. You were downscaled but would still get loot relevant to your actual level, and your extra skills and gear meant you were still stronger than someone who was not downscaled.
The DS example seems to me like part perception and part limiting the power increase. Instead of going from 1 to 100 you go from 50 to 60, so the difference between starting level and cap is much smaller, especially on the health/defensive stats.
A few things I wanted to talk about with GW2's Level Scaling, is was almost always Down, never Up for the base game (with a few noted previously exceptions).
In this venture the game world grow as you play, but this is also a needed feature, as in GW2, world exploration, dynamic events, Jump Puzzles, and World Bosses are a huge part of the game, so keeping all the maps viable as you level is an intrinsic and needed aspect of the game.
Not only that, the world in GW2 is VAST, and the exp is plentiful, you will quickly out level a zone, and if they did not put in down leveling, that would give players a huge sense of missing out, or worse, a sense of tedium when trying to world completion were in many other games you end up one-punching greens and grays to death as you trudge to your next POI for the sake of some achievement, in GW2, you never have that feel of abject boredom.
With down leveling, you are still getting EXP, Loot, Money, and fun fights all the while you travel about, this is also handy because resources like Wood/Metal/Cloth only drop from specific levels, so if you wanted to go and farm them, you still have engaging content.
However, with GW2, when you down level, you still have a sense of being powerful, and vastly more powerful than you were when in the zone at level. This is because, while the gear gets down leveled, the higher level gear has more stat split.
To use an example. 1 - 30 yuor gear has 1 stat, Power. 31 - 60, you have 2 stats, Power and Precision, at 61 - 80, you have 3 stats, Power, Precision, and Ferocity, so even if the 3 stats gets down leveled, they are still providing a boon to 3 stats were the gear for that zone would provide less, and thus you end up being stronger in that zone when down leveled. The same with Runes and Sigils. So, while you are down leveled so that you can't just one-punch everything like most MMO's you are still a very powerful build for that zone, you still have a sense of being above the zone, while it still being a fight.
I would say arguably the best level scaling system I have ever seen in any game.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I tink a lot of the concern some of us have, I don't wnat to say everyone, is that things stay relevant, meaningful or challenging. The problem with levelling systems is oftentimes, due to power creep, things lose relevance. People complain about zones not being useful anymore since it's useless because they outlevelled it. People complain about it being too easy when you oneshot things, or when the cave you enter is no longer scary because it's not dangerous anymore.
And then there's sidescaling. For example, you enter a zone with lots of underwater content. it's not something you've done before. Nobody is superman here. You have to leanr to water breathe and swim and use different tactics designed for underwater encounters. Once you finish that zone, the next zone up doesn't simply have upgraded water that requires higher swimming skill or more underwater training, like is typical in vertical progression, but instead it's a zone with weak gravity, utilizing slingshot abilities, glider gear, new flying ability and so on. The skills and abilities you gained in the previous underwater zone don't apply to the new zone with weak gravity--and vice versa. This is horizontal progression. It keeps things more relevant. It prevents you from having insane water skill--aka superman--in a old water-based zone because you spent all your other time in a zone without gravity, and some in a blistering hot hell world with lava volcanoes and meteor storms, and those things won't help you in the water zone.
ON the reverse side, sometimes people like to be able to oneshot something sometimes, to be proud of their achievements since the start of their journey. It can be relaxing and nostalgic to revisit an old place and farm it for currency or something else, seeing the familiar things and old enemies you once feared. Or, conversely, to be oneshot by an enemy, to then know that enemy is not fake, but has a painful bite. That gives you somethign to aim for, impossible at the moment, but something longterm to keep in your sights.
it's hard to please everyone. I wonder if an mmorpg could have a little of everything? Could that work, or would it only serve to divide the population and cause arguments.
I guess it's kind of hard to avoid these things since a game tends to be a particular thing. Sidescaling requires more development because things are different. It's like making a differnet game everytime you create side progression. Vertical progression comes natural, since you're just using wha'ts already there and adding some beefier targets, with maybe a few altered tactics to freshen it up. This is what leads to insane power levels and the oneshot thing.
I tihnk anywhere there's progression, be it numbers your character has or natural skill you've gained on your own, there's always going to be probelms with these things, and we'll always be seeking solutions and creting different kinds of games. Playing a different game is the ultimate ice breaker.
And a few more things. Everything being like a starter zone, roughly equal to your level, is not necessarily the product of scaling. That's the product of game designers making the game more casual for players--more accessible to lazy minded gamers who think any kind of walled progression or nuanced consideration is inaccessible or inconvenient to them, maybe because they think games should be that way. Scaling doesn't HAVE to be make things so equalized. Like some have already stated, scaling can be a varying range. It doesn't even have to be linear; it can be logarithmic or exponential. A rat is dumb and relatively weak, and should always be scaled meagerly, so it'll always be fairly easy to kill it, no matter your level--unless it's named Splinter. A dragon, on the other hand, can be lethal early on, and even at the highest levels will still be a tough fight; or it could always be lethal! Scaling is like gravity, thigns reolve around you, but there's no hard rule dictating things must be within reach.
And one shotting is not necessarily the product of vertical progression either. It can exist in horizontal progression too. A zone can have a high ability creature that one shots you early on because you don't have the skills yet to face it. Once you acquire the skills necessary, it doesn't anymore. The difference with horizontal progression is it doesn't indefinitely keep boosting the same skills over and over, so it doesn't guarantee one shotting eventually.
And I agree not everyring is easy to scale. It's easy to scale a number, but much harder to scale things requiring organic thinking, or lots of interdependent skills and tactics. So scaled systems might favor overly simplistic numeric designs, only because it's optimal that way. Scaling a boss fight at hte highest levels down to level 1, and expecting level 1's to have equal success, is expecting level 1's to have the full knowledge and interdependencies of high levels, and tha'ts just not possible without also severely restricting the gameplay of high level players. The only real way to scale the boss down to level 1 is gimp it severely so it's doable by the expertise ignorance of a level 1.
If I understand you correctly, it would be like this...???
You start out at X vs. all MOBs. You progress to X+ vs. some, but drop to X- vs. others. Or you are X+ for a while and then drop to X- for an amount of time.
Is that the basics of it?
If so, I don't care for it because there's no real progression, you are simply redefining your character at point X overall.
I just want an interesting system that limits those huge Power Gaps that do so much harm to the game experience in all ways but raw god-mode Power.
Day 1: You can only do single target DPS
Day 10: You've progressed, and can now do single target dps OR aoe dps
Day 20: You've progressed, and can now do single target dps OR aoe dps OR burst dps
Day 30: You've progressed, and can now do single target dps OR aoe dps OR burst dps OR damage over time
note: at any time, you can mix-and-match, have some single target and some aoe, forming a hybrid that is more flexible but less efficient in each specific focus.
Best example of this in practice is online shooters. The more you play, the more guns you unlock. The new guns aren't necessarily better or worse, just different. You can only use one gun at a time, so balance is maintained, but by unlocking more of them you can find the perfect playstyle for you (so better game experience for the player) or you can select a gun that might be better for the specific map you're on (like choosing a rapid fire smg for a close quarters map, or a sniper for a more open map).
Replace the guns in the above example with skillsets and gearsets in an rpg, and you'll begin to understand what im aiming for.
I can see where that can add a lot of strategy to combat. Especially in groups, even for a pair of players. Two players who play together a lot can develop several strategies for great effect.
MOB AI would enhance the fun a lot. I love it when a MOB does what you didn't expect, which is not seen after you've seen them before. That's got to change.
Indeed, mob AI could shake things up and make encounters more dynamic. You have to be careful with too much variation or randomness; players need good feedback from the game in order to feel like they can both prepare and react properly. Not saying it can't be done, just that increased AI can sometimes reduce the fun. Predictability gives you something to measure yourself against, you can see your own progress as you get better and better against the enemy.
Anyway, you're totally right about the various synergies that my system aims to implement.
I'd like to give you another example of how my system would help players get together and play together, whilst still providing motivation to progress.
Imagine a game based on the trinity (i want more, but lets keep it simple for now!)
When you start out, you can only do single target dps, single target tanking and single target healing.
Now imagine an "endgame" raid, typical of what you'd find in most themeparks.
A newbie, with just single target abilities, would still be able to join in. The DPSer could still beat on the boss, the tank could still off-tank, or maybe even stick on the boss. The healer could still heal up the tank.
However, a raid comprised just of newbies would fail, or at least have an extremely difficult time. You'd want some AoE DPS involved to help out with large waves of adds. You'd want AoE healers to help deal with splash damage etc.
Such a design should, I hope, provide ample motivation to keep progressing whilst not excluding others who haven't progressed as far as you.
[sorry for the off-topic, none of this was about scaling]
Think of all the other stuff you could add to players' abilities such as stealth, spells, illusions, poisons, lights and shadows, etherealness, pets, and generally speaking all the things MMOs have had to date plus more.
Again, players that play together long term, they can develop tactics to make the experience more rewarding.
That's a good point about AI, but I didn't mean to make MOBs chaotic in nature. Just randomize their actions so it's not the same cookie cutter every time. Maybe add in a magical item once in a while to make a MOB more interesting.
This isn't much off topic, really, as it's an alternative to Scaling.
Think of all the other stuff you could add to players' abilities such as stealth, spells, illusions, poisons, lights and shadows, etherealness, pets, and generally speaking all the things MMOs have had to date plus more.
Again, players that play together long term, they can develop tactics to make the experience more rewarding.
That's a good point about AI, but I didn't mean to make MOBs chaotic in nature. Just randomize their actions so it's not the same cookie cutter every time. Maybe add in a magical item once in a while to make a MOB more interesting.
This isn't much off topic, really, as it's an alternative to Scaling.
So, I've only ever really played one MMO where non-combat abilities made any sort of difference (or requirement) to group content.
In SWG, the Deathwatch Bunker raid included a special crafting bench that was required to craft specific armour sets (mandalorian? can't remember now lol). This meant that crafters had to team up with raiders to get in there and craft their cool stuff. It brought together players who often didn't have much reason to interact outside of trading.
So, I do like the idea of additional types of playstyles finding a useful role in group content. For example, in a sci-fi MMO, maybe you need to bring along crafters to help cut through doors with blow-torches, or transport specialists to help get the combat people where they need to be, or leadership specialists who can stay at the forward operating base to give out orders / update maps / call in reinforcements. Or stealth / acrobatic players who are the only ones who can reach certain places to set traps, or hit buttons to close doors for enemy reinforcements or whatever.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr82 Black Orc | Scrotling rr7X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr7X Shaman
Comments
On one hand, I see the importance of level scaling. On the other hand, I see it's current implementation half assed.
Another example is the dark souls games. Even if you get stronger, the starter enemies can still damage you if you're careless. However, you can kill them much faster, or instantly as now you're much more stronger than before.
Yesterday while playing fallout 76, I was wandering around the map and got a prompt for a fraternity house quest. There was some new nuka cola mixture and I drank it. Apparently, when you drink this type of cola you get teleported somewhere randomly in the map. I got teleported to the far right and was confused on what to do. Being level 25, I knew I shouldn't be in this part of the map just yet, however due to scaling I was able to fend all creatures I saw.
When wondering in the area, I was met with wendigos. New type of creature in the game. The music changes as if you're fighting a "boss", and they give a ton of loot on death. Did it hit hardish? sure. Was I able to effortlessly beat it with starter weapons? yes again.
See, I don't like that. I should have been scared shitless of dying and having to go back there to get my scrap. Due to scaling, instead of leaving the area right away, I wandered around and finished some quests before leaving.
I believe scaling should meet certain criteria before its imposed on the player. The current implementation in this game, is not one I'm fond of. Hence the thread.
That is why even early mobs can deal damage to you. The only other factor in improvement is what gear or weapons you decide to use and upgrade. In these style of games, the defence stat is not going to make you a god. Perhaps, be able to take 2-3 more hits before dying.
It just doesn't fit right in a MMO world.
SP games? Sure, who cares.
Once upon a time....
Instead of going for the problem as a whole, you separate it into fragments, and focus on them individually.
The main one is the division of players because of those huge power gaps, which ruin any long term associations for most players.
It also ruins any real economic game play beyond buying and selling at the Auction House (long term associations, contracts, economic planning, etc.).
Another prime negative is the useless content once it's levelled past.
That's the reason for Scaling.
But Scaling content comes with some bad effects too, primarily it removes most of the actual progression that players earn.
So in effect, the whole Level grind system (scaled or not) is "damned if you do, damned if you don't."
If you want more depth in your MMOs, besides just running quests and Hack & Slash, then these games need to change from the D&D system that was designed for small groups.
If you want a game where much more content matters, is playable, more interesting, and players and Guilds actually mix on a grand scale, where the entire world has constant meaning, change, and interests in many forms, then it has to change.
On the other hand, if you like comatose Rinse and Repeat game play (nothing wrong with that if you're a zombie), then none of this is meaningful. Just don't take a head shot, ya know? (I'm teasing.
Once upon a time....
Two players who play together a lot can develop several strategies for great effect.
MOB AI would enhance the fun a lot.
I love it when a MOB does what you didn't expect, which is not seen after you've seen them before. That's got to change.
Once upon a time....
The level 5 orc can still hurt you when you're level 20, but if you go fight a level 50 dragon while level 20, you stand no chance of even killing it, let alone surviving the fight.
I don't know exactly how it is in ESO, but I'm basing my logic from Fallout 76 system. Yesterday I beat like 4 wendigos that dropped me level 45 gear while I'm still level 25. That type of scaling is what I'm talking about.
If some areas shouldn't be visited while lower level due to tougher creatures (since mmos still use levels), then so be it. The notion of being able to go anywhere you want, anytime you want (at least for me), shouldn't mean you CAN also beat them.
Then we have the issue of progression yet again. When I get new shiny gear, it won't feel as impactful. I'll still be fighting the same creatures that are simply scaled higher.
Wouldn't that be sufficient to go in tougher areas and still be able to fend off the creatures there due to scaling?
I'll get to the point...
Does the game really need al those numbers? HPs, Damage, etc.?
Because it scales, so why spend time to build the code in the first place? And if you don't have the big numbers that are removed with Scaling, then you don't need the Scaling code too.
It seems like a lot of costly work for nothing.
Once upon a time....
I still would prefer something similar to GW2, with perhaps having the scaling system tied to the monster itself. Enemies like bunnies and whatnot couldn't scale higher than a predefined level, and enemies like dragons that are supposedly mid to endgame don't scale lower than a predefined level.
So well written combat systems could allow a group of players at level 10 to defeat a level 50 mob.Now obviously it has to be VERY difficult or you'll just break the system and defeat the purpose of a more difficult enemy.
So HOW is this accomplished?Well without typing out every last bit of code and systems,i'll sum it up with a few notes.So these notes i will use is based on the theory the Dragon foe is extremely to near impossible to defeat.
1 The code should use an ARC that ranges from 1% to 99% give or take 1-3% either way.it is not just one number in the arc but a RANGE.So your range if VERY difficult is as I mentioned maybe 1-3% to hit.
2 Factor in weaknesses,such as mob is weak to Swords or maybe fire,that raises your % on the arc from maybe 1-3% up to 3-5%.
3 Factor in SKILL,either the weapon skill or the spell/ability skill level.If you are at max skill for your level then there is no penalty in the arc range.
4 Gear should NOT be an item level,that is just a super dumb idea by a really bad developer named Blizzard.Instead your gear should have a chance to PROC and how you want that system to work is up to you.Example of procs would be a double hit or a triple hit and if your weapon has something like STUN or sleep or poison etc etc,by hitting more often you have a better chance to hit.
5 Use the BOUNCE theory.I am not going to write out a whole scenario,i am pretty sure most understand the bounce idea by bouncing hate from player to player spread a part a fair distance.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
In this venture the game world grow as you play, but this is also a needed feature, as in GW2, world exploration, dynamic events, Jump Puzzles, and World Bosses are a huge part of the game, so keeping all the maps viable as you level is an intrinsic and needed aspect of the game.
Not only that, the world in GW2 is VAST, and the exp is plentiful, you will quickly out level a zone, and if they did not put in down leveling, that would give players a huge sense of missing out, or worse, a sense of tedium when trying to world completion were in many other games you end up one-punching greens and grays to death as you trudge to your next POI for the sake of some achievement, in GW2, you never have that feel of abject boredom.
With down leveling, you are still getting EXP, Loot, Money, and fun fights all the while you travel about, this is also handy because resources like Wood/Metal/Cloth only drop from specific levels, so if you wanted to go and farm them, you still have engaging content.
However, with GW2, when you down level, you still have a sense of being powerful, and vastly more powerful than you were when in the zone at level. This is because, while the gear gets down leveled, the higher level gear has more stat split.
To use an example. 1 - 30 yuor gear has 1 stat, Power. 31 - 60, you have 2 stats, Power and Precision, at 61 - 80, you have 3 stats, Power, Precision, and Ferocity, so even if the 3 stats gets down leveled, they are still providing a boon to 3 stats were the gear for that zone would provide less, and thus you end up being stronger in that zone when down leveled. The same with Runes and Sigils. So, while you are down leveled so that you can't just one-punch everything like most MMO's you are still a very powerful build for that zone, you still have a sense of being above the zone, while it still being a fight.
I would say arguably the best level scaling system I have ever seen in any game.
Again, players that play together long term, they can develop tactics to make the experience more rewarding.
That's a good point about AI, but I didn't mean to make MOBs chaotic in nature. Just randomize their actions so it's not the same cookie cutter every time.
Maybe add in a magical item once in a while to make a MOB more interesting.
This isn't much off topic, really, as it's an alternative to Scaling.
Once upon a time....