Philosophy of MMO Development: The "Anti-WoW" MMO Development

MMOExposed

I have been thinking lately about something.
I realized there seem to be a philosophical aspect to MMO game design, and I wanted to evaluate some of these philosophical aspects for sake of sparking discussion. 

  

The Subject here is "The Anti-WoW" MMO development. 

Not to be confused with the term "WoW Killer", which is another term we often see.     

What is the Anti WoW Game Development mentality?  

Its the idea that by doing something opposite of WoW will bring success all because its "WoW = Bad and WoW did it, so we WONT do it, which will make our game a success"

Not only are MMO Developers guilty of this mentality, but so far the Fans of these MMOs.

The irony of this is that, this is not exclusive to MMOs that are radically different from WoW. Some MMOs which the general consensus is that they are similar to WoW, also have Developers and Fans with this "Anti-WoW" mentality, even when its detrimental to the success of the game.         

 

A good example of this was "Vanilla Rift" ( and thats use of the term Vanilla when referring to Rift had sparked another example of the Anti WoW back in the day since people associated the term Vanilla to WoW". 

Vanilla Rift was generally accepted as a WoW like MMO, yet its developers early on were heavy against having a LFG tool for Dungeons simply because "WoW did it". Yet it was a successful tool in WoW for a reason. Trion quickly changed their tune when they saw all the backlash. But not only was Trion against this, so were many Rift fans who would shout all day on the forums for people to go back to WoW. 

But thats just a mild example of the devastating impact of the Anti-WoW mentality in MMOs that are also similar to WoW.

But what about other MMOs. 

Another example of the Anti WoW Mentality among both Developers and Fans of the game, that I want to point out was with the development of Guild Wars 2.

But this post is long enough. I had more that I wanted to speak on, especially the GW2 part. But Let me know what you all think about this subject. 

madazz

I still laugh at your name. Ever since you joined I thought it was ridiculous. As if you think you're some sort of investigative journalist exposing MMO's. The insider edition of mmo posters if you will lol. Like my names stupid, thats fine. But yours is "stupider" lol.

I know, off topic. But I've been thinking it for years. 

Aeander

Well, I think there is a lot of valid game design to be had around how you are explicitly trying to be different from the competition. There is value in trying to be "the anti-WoW," but I think it's also important to establish oneself as what you are in addition to what you are not.

Guild Wars 2 made a big deal about how it wanted to reinvent the wheel. It wanted to ditch the trinity. Ditch linear storytelling and progression. Etc. Etc. But I don't think it did a good job of replacing these things with new game design principles.



Ironically, I think GW1 did a better job of being the anti-WoW than GW2 ever did. It had a fully functional horizontal progression system, which GW2 does not. It didn't scrap the idea of tanks and supports, but rather provided such a versatile build system that you had a great range of roles you could perform on any given class. It didn't rely on level-gated game design, but rather designed the entire game (even with Hard Mode) to be played at a specific power level that never changed. It normalized power for PvP. It didn't have a subscription fee. These were all anti-WoW ideas that existed long before GW2 ever tried to be anti-WoW.

rojoArcueid

The anti-WoW philosophy:

Don't do anything WoW did. Don't make a video game.

Scot

Just lumping anything's elements altogether because it has negatives is rather strange. Anyway, WoW is not a bad MMO, it just led us down a one way street that allows few turn offs. 

cameltosis

@MMOExposed I'm afraid I'm not really sure what point you were trying to make, other than the fact there is an anti-WoW mentality held by some people.

I think you've made the explanation of that mentality far too simple though. There are plenty of valid reasons to not want to design an mmorpg that is similar to WoW beyond simple personal preference.

the most obvious reason is that noone has managed to achieve the same level of success as WoW, even though there have been plenty of themepark mmorpgs that are objectively better than WoW. This would seem to indicate that WoW's level of success is not down to it's design alone.

Amathe

It's like in any other business. If there is a heavyweight in the market, figure out what need that heavyweight isn't meeting and service that need. 

Wizardry

Let me see if i can do this better than i usually do it.

There is a imo a small market of people that have an idea of what they want from a rpg.
There is a MUCH larger audience that just plays what they are given and don't have any or much criteria at all.In other words,game is popular,i will play.


So before I played my first mmorpg i had an idea of what I wanted,games don't seek me i seek out a game design.In otherwords i don't fall for hype or marketing,the game has to deliver what I want and that's it.

So Wow pretty much does 99% the opposite of what I want a mmorpg to be ding.

Item level loot is just the dumbest and one of my biggest peeves on gaming in general,right there with cash shops and cheating.Quests giving xp is laughable and doesn't even make any sense but the typical Wow player was spoon fed this and likely doesn't even give it any thought at all,let's game with blinkers on.

Instances all over the place,that deters from the MMO theme and ruins immersion.Automated warping to these dungeons,again immersion breaking,takes the player OUT of the role play aspect and puts them into computer code that has nothing to do with a plausible world.

Something that also really turned me off were pets,specifically with the Hunter and because I came from the best pet class ever designed in a mmorpg the Beastmaster class in FFXI.Blizzard took a weak sauce Hunter design then made it even worse by nerfing most of the pets.It was just minute after minute of really bad vibes while gaming in Wow,like simply wanting to traverse an area and seeing how Blizzard littered the area with so many mobs and so EVENLY "fake looking"spread out so that I had to aggro mobs my entire passing through.

Bottom line is that my entire play through in Wow was painful,I felt like Blizzard couldn't do anything right.

Wizardry

Oh and let's prove just how bad we are at mmo+rpg design and utilize SCALING...roflmao,one bumbling move after another by Blizzard.

Theocritus

RIft was way too similar to WoW for my tastes...One of their tradeskills literally looked like it copied and pasted WoWs enchanting system. RIft was the bastard child of Warhammer and WoW.

AlBQuirky

Amathe said:

It's like in any other business. If there is a heavyweight in the market, figure out what need that heavyweight isn't meeting and service that need. 

That's the "smart" business move, yet most MMOs seem to want the WoW crowd (or a portion thereof), not the smaller unserviced party (? smaller than crowd).

Abscissa15

This is a casual observation. From my limited exposure to "newer" titles, Tera (released after WoW), ESO and New World, the character movement scheme and controls have gotten away from the WoW model. In WoW (and Rift, GW2, DAoC) you can use the mouse buttons to move. Holding down both buttons simultaneously moves forward. Do that with a strafe left or right and you can easily circle a target. Newer titles seem to set WASD as the standard (although you can reassign keybinds) and the mouse only controls camera orientation. A minor point in any event but I'm having some difficulty adjusting to these themes.

MMOExposed

Wizardry said:

Let me see if i can do this better than i usually do it.

There is a imo a small market of people that have an idea of what they want from a rpg.
There is a MUCH larger audience that just plays what they are given and don't have any or much criteria at all.In other words,game is popular,i will play.


So before I played my first mmorpg i had an idea of what I wanted,games don't seek me i seek out a game design.In otherwords i don't fall for hype or marketing,the game has to deliver what I want and that's it.

So Wow pretty much does 99% the opposite of what I want a mmorpg to be ding.

Item level loot is just the dumbest and one of my biggest peeves on gaming in general,right there with cash shops and cheating.Quests giving xp is laughable and doesn't even make any sense but the typical Wow player was spoon fed this and likely doesn't even give it any thought at all,let's game with blinkers on.

Instances all over the place,that deters from the MMO theme and ruins immersion.Automated warping to these dungeons,again immersion breaking,takes the player OUT of the role play aspect and puts them into computer code that has nothing to do with a plausible world.

Something that also really turned me off were pets,specifically with the Hunter and because I came from the best pet class ever designed in a mmorpg the Beastmaster class in FFXI.Blizzard took a weak sauce Hunter design then made it even worse by nerfing most of the pets.It was just minute after minute of really bad vibes while gaming in Wow,like simply wanting to traverse an area and seeing how Blizzard littered the area with so many mobs and so EVENLY "fake looking"spread out so that I had to aggro mobs my entire passing through.

Bottom line is that my entire play through in Wow was painful,I felt like Blizzard couldn't do anything right.

The problem with the Anti WoW concept is you first have to understand "What Exactly Is WoW?"

This the root of the Anti-WoW problem. 

WoW is a MMO that built its entire success off of copying ideas from other sources and in an innovative manner, introducing these features into their own game WoW.

WoW is not an original concept. 

So building an MMO around "We Not Doing XYZABC123 because WoW Does XYZABC123" 

just mean all Anti WoW concept MMOs will just continuously being running away from interesting game ideas because WoW is never going to stop adding new ideas to their game that are interesting concepts from other MMOs.

We saw this with the GW2 community early on. 

GW2 Fans pre release hype phase: "Hey we dont want Raids, thats WoW shit. We dont need group roles, thats WoW shit. We dont need expansions, thats WoW shit"... 

I already gave a few key examples of this in action with GW2 fans being against things like Rifles, Guns and two hander swords all because WoW did it. Imagine a MMO developer with this mindset.

We see this going on right now with the AGS New World MMO. People screaming "Go Back To WoW" for wanting Mounts or for wanting the ability to Jump and Swim.

keep in mind as I stated above about WoW.
note,

*Mounts
*Raids
*Group Roles
*Ability to Jump and Swim
*Rifles and two hander sword
*Expansions

none of these things are original to WoW.
WoW didnt invent any of these things. But because you hate WoW, all these things are now bad things? make it make sense

AlBQuirky

MMOExposed said:

Wizardry said:

Let me see if i can do this better than i usually do it.

There is a imo a small market of people that have an idea of what they want from a rpg.
There is a MUCH larger audience that just plays what they are given and don't have any or much criteria at all.In other words,game is popular,i will play.


So before I played my first mmorpg i had an idea of what I wanted,games don't seek me i seek out a game design.In otherwords i don't fall for hype or marketing,the game has to deliver what I want and that's it.

So Wow pretty much does 99% the opposite of what I want a mmorpg to be ding.

Item level loot is just the dumbest and one of my biggest peeves on gaming in general,right there with cash shops and cheating.Quests giving xp is laughable and doesn't even make any sense but the typical Wow player was spoon fed this and likely doesn't even give it any thought at all,let's game with blinkers on.

Instances all over the place,that deters from the MMO theme and ruins immersion.Automated warping to these dungeons,again immersion breaking,takes the player OUT of the role play aspect and puts them into computer code that has nothing to do with a plausible world.

Something that also really turned me off were pets,specifically with the Hunter and because I came from the best pet class ever designed in a mmorpg the Beastmaster class in FFXI.Blizzard took a weak sauce Hunter design then made it even worse by nerfing most of the pets.It was just minute after minute of really bad vibes while gaming in Wow,like simply wanting to traverse an area and seeing how Blizzard littered the area with so many mobs and so EVENLY "fake looking"spread out so that I had to aggro mobs my entire passing through.

Bottom line is that my entire play through in Wow was painful,I felt like Blizzard couldn't do anything right.

The problem with the Anti WoW concept is you first have to understand "What Exactly Is WoW?"

This the root of the Anti-WoW problem. 

WoW is a MMO that built its entire success off of copying ideas from other sources and in an innovative manner, introducing these features into their own game WoW.

WoW is not an original concept. 

So building an MMO around "We Not Doing XYZABC123 because WoW Does XYZABC123" 

just mean all Anti WoW concept MMOs will just continuously being running away from interesting game ideas because WoW is never going to stop adding new ideas to their game that are interesting concepts from other MMOs.

We saw this with the GW2 community early on. 

GW2 Fans pre release hype phase: "Hey we dont want Raids, thats WoW shit. We dont need group roles, thats WoW shit. We dont need expansions, thats WoW shit"... 

I already gave a few key examples of this in action with GW2 fans being against things like Rifles, Guns and two hander swords all because WoW did it. Imagine a MMO developer with this mindset.

We see this going on right now with the AGS New World MMO. People screaming "Go Back To WoW" for wanting Mounts or for wanting the ability to Jump and Swim.

keep in mind as I stated above about WoW.
note,

*Mounts
*Raids
*Group Roles
*Ability to Jump and Swim
*Rifles and two hander sword
*Expansions

none of these things are original to WoW.
WoW didnt invent any of these things. But because you hate WoW, all these things are now bad things? make it make sense

That's a better explanation for me. (Sorry Theocritus for the quote of TWO long posts...)

It's not about individual features. It is what WoW represents: Homogenization, simplification, and "mass accessibility & appeal."

I'm not trying to be an exclusivity snob here, but I'd rather find a few players that actually enjoy MMORPGs than millions that don't. WoW kicked the barn door wide and left it open. It also made big business look closely at a formerly fun "hobby" and make profits, NOT fun the number one goal of MMOs.

So, for me, my "anti-WoW" attitude stems NOT from any one feature or combination thereof that WoW uses, but rather what it did to a genre I used to enjoy.

lahnmir

AlBQuirky said:

MMOExposed said:

Wizardry said:

Let me see if i can do this better than i usually do it.

There is a imo a small market of people that have an idea of what they want from a rpg.
There is a MUCH larger audience that just plays what they are given and don't have any or much criteria at all.In other words,game is popular,i will play.


So before I played my first mmorpg i had an idea of what I wanted,games don't seek me i seek out a game design.In otherwords i don't fall for hype or marketing,the game has to deliver what I want and that's it.

So Wow pretty much does 99% the opposite of what I want a mmorpg to be ding.

Item level loot is just the dumbest and one of my biggest peeves on gaming in general,right there with cash shops and cheating.Quests giving xp is laughable and doesn't even make any sense but the typical Wow player was spoon fed this and likely doesn't even give it any thought at all,let's game with blinkers on.

Instances all over the place,that deters from the MMO theme and ruins immersion.Automated warping to these dungeons,again immersion breaking,takes the player OUT of the role play aspect and puts them into computer code that has nothing to do with a plausible world.

Something that also really turned me off were pets,specifically with the Hunter and because I came from the best pet class ever designed in a mmorpg the Beastmaster class in FFXI.Blizzard took a weak sauce Hunter design then made it even worse by nerfing most of the pets.It was just minute after minute of really bad vibes while gaming in Wow,like simply wanting to traverse an area and seeing how Blizzard littered the area with so many mobs and so EVENLY "fake looking"spread out so that I had to aggro mobs my entire passing through.

Bottom line is that my entire play through in Wow was painful,I felt like Blizzard couldn't do anything right.

The problem with the Anti WoW concept is you first have to understand "What Exactly Is WoW?"

This the root of the Anti-WoW problem. 

WoW is a MMO that built its entire success off of copying ideas from other sources and in an innovative manner, introducing these features into their own game WoW.

WoW is not an original concept. 

So building an MMO around "We Not Doing XYZABC123 because WoW Does XYZABC123" 

just mean all Anti WoW concept MMOs will just continuously being running away from interesting game ideas because WoW is never going to stop adding new ideas to their game that are interesting concepts from other MMOs.

We saw this with the GW2 community early on. 

GW2 Fans pre release hype phase: "Hey we dont want Raids, thats WoW shit. We dont need group roles, thats WoW shit. We dont need expansions, thats WoW shit"... 

I already gave a few key examples of this in action with GW2 fans being against things like Rifles, Guns and two hander swords all because WoW did it. Imagine a MMO developer with this mindset.

We see this going on right now with the AGS New World MMO. People screaming "Go Back To WoW" for wanting Mounts or for wanting the ability to Jump and Swim.

keep in mind as I stated above about WoW.
note,

*Mounts
*Raids
*Group Roles
*Ability to Jump and Swim
*Rifles and two hander sword
*Expansions

none of these things are original to WoW.
WoW didnt invent any of these things. But because you hate WoW, all these things are now bad things? make it make sense

That's a better explanation for me. (Sorry Theocritus for the quote of TWO long posts...)

It's not about individual features. It is what WoW represents: Homogenization, simplification, and "mass accessibility & appeal."

I'm not trying to be an exclusivity snob here, but I'd rather find a few players that actually enjoy MMORPGs than millions that don't. WoW kicked the barn door wide and left it open. It also made big business look closely at a formerly fun "hobby" and make profits, NOT fun the number one goal of MMOs.

So, for me, my "anti-WoW" attitude stems NOT from any one feature or combination thereof that WoW uses, but rather what it did to a genre I used to enjoy.

I would even take it further and say it isn’t about the actual game at all.

I think it is about:

A. A game becoming so popular it turns into a cultural phenomenon which attracts every man and his dog, including their opinion.

B. Becoming the new template of the entire genre for years to come due to that popularity with developers chasing the golden goose.

I still firmly believe that many mistake accessible with dumbing down and bloat with depth. I also firmly believe in the ‘easy to pick up, hard to master’ philosophy.

/Cheers,
Lahnmir

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

lahnmir

blueturtle13 said:

lahnmir said:

AlBQuirky said:

MMOExposed said:

Wizardry said:

Let me see if i can do this better than i usually do it.

There is a imo a small market of people that have an idea of what they want from a rpg.
There is a MUCH larger audience that just plays what they are given and don't have any or much criteria at all.In other words,game is popular,i will play.


So before I played my first mmorpg i had an idea of what I wanted,games don't seek me i seek out a game design.In otherwords i don't fall for hype or marketing,the game has to deliver what I want and that's it.

So Wow pretty much does 99% the opposite of what I want a mmorpg to be ding.

Item level loot is just the dumbest and one of my biggest peeves on gaming in general,right there with cash shops and cheating.Quests giving xp is laughable and doesn't even make any sense but the typical Wow player was spoon fed this and likely doesn't even give it any thought at all,let's game with blinkers on.

Instances all over the place,that deters from the MMO theme and ruins immersion.Automated warping to these dungeons,again immersion breaking,takes the player OUT of the role play aspect and puts them into computer code that has nothing to do with a plausible world.

Something that also really turned me off were pets,specifically with the Hunter and because I came from the best pet class ever designed in a mmorpg the Beastmaster class in FFXI.Blizzard took a weak sauce Hunter design then made it even worse by nerfing most of the pets.It was just minute after minute of really bad vibes while gaming in Wow,like simply wanting to traverse an area and seeing how Blizzard littered the area with so many mobs and so EVENLY "fake looking"spread out so that I had to aggro mobs my entire passing through.

Bottom line is that my entire play through in Wow was painful,I felt like Blizzard couldn't do anything right.

The problem with the Anti WoW concept is you first have to understand "What Exactly Is WoW?"

This the root of the Anti-WoW problem. 

WoW is a MMO that built its entire success off of copying ideas from other sources and in an innovative manner, introducing these features into their own game WoW.

WoW is not an original concept. 

So building an MMO around "We Not Doing XYZABC123 because WoW Does XYZABC123" 

just mean all Anti WoW concept MMOs will just continuously being running away from interesting game ideas because WoW is never going to stop adding new ideas to their game that are interesting concepts from other MMOs.

We saw this with the GW2 community early on. 

GW2 Fans pre release hype phase: "Hey we dont want Raids, thats WoW shit. We dont need group roles, thats WoW shit. We dont need expansions, thats WoW shit"... 

I already gave a few key examples of this in action with GW2 fans being against things like Rifles, Guns and two hander swords all because WoW did it. Imagine a MMO developer with this mindset.

We see this going on right now with the AGS New World MMO. People screaming "Go Back To WoW" for wanting Mounts or for wanting the ability to Jump and Swim.

keep in mind as I stated above about WoW.
note,

*Mounts
*Raids
*Group Roles
*Ability to Jump and Swim
*Rifles and two hander sword
*Expansions

none of these things are original to WoW.
WoW didnt invent any of these things. But because you hate WoW, all these things are now bad things? make it make sense

That's a better explanation for me. (Sorry Theocritus for the quote of TWO long posts...)

It's not about individual features. It is what WoW represents: Homogenization, simplification, and "mass accessibility & appeal."

I'm not trying to be an exclusivity snob here, but I'd rather find a few players that actually enjoy MMORPGs than millions that don't. WoW kicked the barn door wide and left it open. It also made big business look closely at a formerly fun "hobby" and make profits, NOT fun the number one goal of MMOs.

So, for me, my "anti-WoW" attitude stems NOT from any one feature or combination thereof that WoW uses, but rather what it did to a genre I used to enjoy.

I would even take it further and say it isn’t about the actual game at all.

I think it is about:

A. A game becoming so popular it turns into a cultural phenomenon which attracts every man and his dog, including their opinion.

B. Becoming the new template of the entire genre for years to come due to that popularity with developers chasing the golden goose.

I still firmly believe that many mistake accessible with dumbing down and bloat with depth. I also firmly believe in the ‘easy to pick up, hard to master’ philosophy.

/Cheers,
Lahnmir

I also think Warcraft gets too much credit and in the same breath sometimes not enough.
The list you made could have been about Everquest. 

Points A and B apply to EQ1 as well. 

Warcraft continued the path that Everquest was on. 

I think it strange that since 2004 nothing has come out to take the place of Warcraft. 

Meaning, after the success of Evercrack, Warcraft emerged and propelled the genre to new heights of awareness and popularity.

 Many thought the next few years after that something would come along and be that next step. 

It never happened. 

Studios kept making games, some good some bad. Some copies some original. 

So the real question is what changed? 

Why was there never that third big shift?

Everquest
Warcraft
?

Perhaps costs? 

Perhaps audience change?
Perhaps the talent needed to create the next big thing is not interested in the commitment?
Perhpas the genre is just tired?

Perhaps after years and years exposed, the genre has reverted back to its indie niche corner?

Perhaps a little bit of all the above and more?

Not sure there is just one answer. 

Good points. The only thing I can come up with is increase of costs versus increase of sales. The former has increased roughly 15/20 times in the last two decades with the biggest increase in the last 10. The latter has been steadily growing but not by the same size, a factor 10 would be very high already. So, more financial risks when creating games, which also means more playing it safe when creating these games. It pretty much happens across all AAA genres.

/Cheers,
Lahnmir

MMOExposed

lahnmir said:

blueturtle13 said:

lahnmir said:

AlBQuirky said:

MMOExposed said:

Wizardry said:

Let me see if i can do this better than i usually do it.

There is a imo a small market of people that have an idea of what they want from a rpg.
There is a MUCH larger audience that just plays what they are given and don't have any or much criteria at all.In other words,game is popular,i will play.


So before I played my first mmorpg i had an idea of what I wanted,games don't seek me i seek out a game design.In otherwords i don't fall for hype or marketing,the game has to deliver what I want and that's it.

So Wow pretty much does 99% the opposite of what I want a mmorpg to be ding.

Item level loot is just the dumbest and one of my biggest peeves on gaming in general,right there with cash shops and cheating.Quests giving xp is laughable and doesn't even make any sense but the typical Wow player was spoon fed this and likely doesn't even give it any thought at all,let's game with blinkers on.

Instances all over the place,that deters from the MMO theme and ruins immersion.Automated warping to these dungeons,again immersion breaking,takes the player OUT of the role play aspect and puts them into computer code that has nothing to do with a plausible world.

Something that also really turned me off were pets,specifically with the Hunter and because I came from the best pet class ever designed in a mmorpg the Beastmaster class in FFXI.Blizzard took a weak sauce Hunter design then made it even worse by nerfing most of the pets.It was just minute after minute of really bad vibes while gaming in Wow,like simply wanting to traverse an area and seeing how Blizzard littered the area with so many mobs and so EVENLY "fake looking"spread out so that I had to aggro mobs my entire passing through.

Bottom line is that my entire play through in Wow was painful,I felt like Blizzard couldn't do anything right.

The problem with the Anti WoW concept is you first have to understand "What Exactly Is WoW?"

This the root of the Anti-WoW problem. 

WoW is a MMO that built its entire success off of copying ideas from other sources and in an innovative manner, introducing these features into their own game WoW.

WoW is not an original concept. 

So building an MMO around "We Not Doing XYZABC123 because WoW Does XYZABC123" 

just mean all Anti WoW concept MMOs will just continuously being running away from interesting game ideas because WoW is never going to stop adding new ideas to their game that are interesting concepts from other MMOs.

We saw this with the GW2 community early on. 

GW2 Fans pre release hype phase: "Hey we dont want Raids, thats WoW shit. We dont need group roles, thats WoW shit. We dont need expansions, thats WoW shit"... 

I already gave a few key examples of this in action with GW2 fans being against things like Rifles, Guns and two hander swords all because WoW did it. Imagine a MMO developer with this mindset.

We see this going on right now with the AGS New World MMO. People screaming "Go Back To WoW" for wanting Mounts or for wanting the ability to Jump and Swim.

keep in mind as I stated above about WoW.
note,

*Mounts
*Raids
*Group Roles
*Ability to Jump and Swim
*Rifles and two hander sword
*Expansions

none of these things are original to WoW.
WoW didnt invent any of these things. But because you hate WoW, all these things are now bad things? make it make sense

That's a better explanation for me. (Sorry Theocritus for the quote of TWO long posts...)

It's not about individual features. It is what WoW represents: Homogenization, simplification, and "mass accessibility & appeal."

I'm not trying to be an exclusivity snob here, but I'd rather find a few players that actually enjoy MMORPGs than millions that don't. WoW kicked the barn door wide and left it open. It also made big business look closely at a formerly fun "hobby" and make profits, NOT fun the number one goal of MMOs.

So, for me, my "anti-WoW" attitude stems NOT from any one feature or combination thereof that WoW uses, but rather what it did to a genre I used to enjoy.

I would even take it further and say it isn’t about the actual game at all.

I think it is about:

A. A game becoming so popular it turns into a cultural phenomenon which attracts every man and his dog, including their opinion.

B. Becoming the new template of the entire genre for years to come due to that popularity with developers chasing the golden goose.

I still firmly believe that many mistake accessible with dumbing down and bloat with depth. I also firmly believe in the ‘easy to pick up, hard to master’ philosophy.

/Cheers,
Lahnmir

I also think Warcraft gets too much credit and in the same breath sometimes not enough.
The list you made could have been about Everquest. 

Points A and B apply to EQ1 as well. 

Warcraft continued the path that Everquest was on. 

I think it strange that since 2004 nothing has come out to take the place of Warcraft. 

Meaning, after the success of Evercrack, Warcraft emerged and propelled the genre to new heights of awareness and popularity.

 Many thought the next few years after that something would come along and be that next step. 

It never happened. 

Studios kept making games, some good some bad. Some copies some original. 

So the real question is what changed? 

Why was there never that third big shift?

Everquest
Warcraft
?

Perhaps costs? 

Perhaps audience change?
Perhaps the talent needed to create the next big thing is not interested in the commitment?
Perhpas the genre is just tired?

Perhaps after years and years exposed, the genre has reverted back to its indie niche corner?

Perhaps a little bit of all the above and more?

Not sure there is just one answer. 

Good points. The only thing I can come up with is increase of costs versus increase of sales. The former has increased roughly 15/20 times in the last two decades with the biggest increase in the last 10. The latter has been steadily growing but not by the same size, a factor 10 would be very high already. So, more financial risks when creating games, which also means more playing it safe when creating these games. It pretty much happens across all AAA genres.

/Cheers,
Lahnmir

But what did all that cost go into? Look no further than SWTOR. It had a high cost as well, but was it because of the gameplay or the voice overs that nobody would really care about in a MMO?

Sounds to me like MMO developers tend to not understand the philosophy of MMO development, they just understand the programming and art side, which they do a great job most of the time by the way.  But thats not good enough and never has. Even Blizzard got lucky on that, as their developers dont truly understand why things went the way they did.

Amaranthar

MMOExposed said:

lahnmir said:

blueturtle13 said:

lahnmir said:

AlBQuirky said:

MMOExposed said:

Wizardry said:

That's a better explanation for me. (Sorry Theocritus for the quote of TWO long posts...)

It's not about individual features. It is what WoW represents: Homogenization, simplification, and "mass accessibility & appeal."

I'm not trying to be an exclusivity snob here, but I'd rather find a few players that actually enjoy MMORPGs than millions that don't. WoW kicked the barn door wide and left it open. It also made big business look closely at a formerly fun "hobby" and make profits, NOT fun the number one goal of MMOs.

So, for me, my "anti-WoW" attitude stems NOT from any one feature or combination thereof that WoW uses, but rather what it did to a genre I used to enjoy.

I would even take it further and say it isn’t about the actual game at all.

I think it is about:

A. A game becoming so popular it turns into a cultural phenomenon which attracts every man and his dog, including their opinion.

B. Becoming the new template of the entire genre for years to come due to that popularity with developers chasing the golden goose.

I still firmly believe that many mistake accessible with dumbing down and bloat with depth. I also firmly believe in the ‘easy to pick up, hard to master’ philosophy.

/Cheers,
Lahnmir

I also think Warcraft gets too much credit and in the same breath sometimes not enough.
The list you made could have been about Everquest. 

Points A and B apply to EQ1 as well. 

Warcraft continued the path that Everquest was on. 

I think it strange that since 2004 nothing has come out to take the place of Warcraft. 

Meaning, after the success of Evercrack, Warcraft emerged and propelled the genre to new heights of awareness and popularity.

 Many thought the next few years after that something would come along and be that next step. 

It never happened. 

Studios kept making games, some good some bad. Some copies some original. 

So the real question is what changed? 

Why was there never that third big shift?

Everquest
Warcraft
?

Perhaps costs? 

Perhaps audience change?
Perhaps the talent needed to create the next big thing is not interested in the commitment?
Perhpas the genre is just tired?

Perhaps after years and years exposed, the genre has reverted back to its indie niche corner?

Perhaps a little bit of all the above and more?

Not sure there is just one answer. 

Good points. The only thing I can come up with is increase of costs versus increase of sales. The former has increased roughly 15/20 times in the last two decades with the biggest increase in the last 10. The latter has been steadily growing but not by the same size, a factor 10 would be very high already. So, more financial risks when creating games, which also means more playing it safe when creating these games. It pretty much happens across all AAA genres.

/Cheers,
Lahnmir

But what did all that cost go into? Look no further than SWTOR. It had a high cost as well, but was it because of the gameplay or the voice overs that nobody would really care about in a MMO?

Sounds to me like MMO developers tend to not understand the philosophy of MMO development, they just understand the programming and art side, which they do a great job most of the time by the way.  But thats not good enough and never has. Even Blizzard got lucky on that, as their developers dont truly understand why things went the way they did.

Oh, I think Blizzard knew exactly what they were doing. 
WoW wasn't the first D&D style MMO, EQ was. 
But EQ had some problems, and WoW fixed them. Although with thing that many now complain about. 

- EQ had long waiting lines at Dungeons with special gear that players wanted for their next set of levels. WoW fixed that with Instances. 

- EQ had the big Power Gaps that made players feel like they were constantly making huge strides, but that brought issues with players staying together, and they felt lost trying to find the right group all the time, wasting time.
WoW fixed that with "LFG." 

And WoW was rolling. Easier had started, and they just kept on making it easier and easier to try to keep new players. 

They knew what they were doing, and it worked extremely well. 

But with time, players started seeing the bad side of it all. And many got tired of the rinse and repeat nature of it. 

I'm glad to see this new forum activity, maybe new ideas can get out there in detail enough so that gamers and developers alike can decide what's worthwhile, new and exciting for MMORPG development. 

Bahut

The interesting aspect of MMOS is they’re evolution is based on what came before them.  

For awhile Everquest was the big dog.  Therefore every MMO that came out for years strove to be the anti EQ.  Games like DAOC were the first competition.   They provided features Everquest didn’t but the reaction was that Everquest had to improve as well to stay competitive.   

The lead designers of WOW were active Everquest players and they tried making WOW in a way it improved on Everquests faults.  

Now everything is anti wow.    

Shaigh

For me its themeparks that removes tank and healer roles for groups combined with removing the gear treadmill gained through dungeon- and raid-content at endgame.

Kyleran

blueturtle13 said:

lahnmir said:

AlBQuirky said:

MMOExposed said:

Wizardry said:

 

 

I think it strange that since 2004 nothing has come out to take the place of Warcraft. 

Meaning, after the success of Evercrack, Warcraft emerged and propelled the genre to new heights of awareness and popularity.

 Many thought the next few years after that something would come along and be that next step. 

It never happened. 

Studios kept making games, some good some bad. Some copies some original. 

So the real question is what changed? 

Why was there never that third big shift?

Everquest
Warcraft
?

Perhaps costs? 

Perhaps audience change?
Perhaps the talent needed to create the next big thing is not interested in the commitment?
Perhpas the genre is just tired?

Perhaps after years and years exposed, the genre has reverted back to its indie niche corner?

Perhaps a little bit of all the above and more?

Not sure there is just one answer. 

Think of it this way.

When the first cars came out, say the Ford Model T/A people were amazed. So much better than a horse, greater mobility than a train or boat, it was a marvelous improvement in transportation, all for say $800?

While a wonder, these early cars were not without significant flaws or challenges, including crank starters, stick shifts, and limited in comfort.

Think of it like EQ1

Fast forward to 1973, and my father's Pontiac LeMans. Inherently it provided me the same benefits as the early cars, but it was so much more improved by several orders of magnitude, and only cost $4300, so much extra value and utility for so little.

Automatic transmission, power steering / brakes / windows, AM/FM radio, Air Conditioning, top end speed around 120 mph (not that I ever tried going that fast ) and most importantly, a bench seat in the front, great for putting your arm around your best girl as she sat closely next to you. 

Think of this as WOW.

Now we are in 2020, how much have automobiles really improved?

Fundamentally they provide no more benefits than the LeMans did, most have the same range, top speed, freedom of movement etc.

Sure, there's been improvements, you have back up cameras, perimeter sensors, satellite radio, heck, some can parallel park themselves, but still these are all somewhat minor QOL improvements over the past 47 years while their cost is easily $35K or more.

Think of this as the state of most modern MMOs at present, where even the costs have gone up as exponentially if you consider all of the cash shop, DLC, and GaaS factored in, some folks can spend thousands or more per month on gaming.

One could argue newer cars have lost much along the way as many romanticize the "muscle cars" of the 50s and 60s, you can't get a bench seat anymore, such a loss most here are too young to realize what they missed, and many of these QOL improvements have actually "dumbed down" drivers making it so they can't even drive a stick shift or navigate without a GPS.

We used to find our way use paper maps, while slipping the clutch uphill in the snow, both ways on studded snow tires and our seats didn't even have heaters in them!!! Worse, there was only AM radio to listen to. Gah...just how did we do it? 

What will it take to advance the MMORPG genre?  Well just as it would take something amazing like the "flying cars" or personal jetpacks I was promised back in the 60s, the genre will need a similar breakthrough in technology or design in order to rise back to prominence.

Probably not in my lifetime, if games in development like Star Citizen are any example, but perhaps some of you are still young enough to see the dream realized one day.

One favor though, please tell your grandchildren about me as you are crusing through the air in your flying cars.... 

"There once was a cranky old forum troll...."

"Wait, wait, what is a forum Grandpa, and why did it have trolls in it, I thought those lived under bridges?"

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

achesoma

Quest hub game design. Not a single mmo has deviated from this model it since WoW. Really, the concept of quests in MMOs need to be changed. A quest was supposed to be an epic adventure, not a laundry list of chores. And as long as xp is tied to quests, it becomes something you have to do and to be completed as fast as possible. Xp for quests is something that really needs to go away imo.

Amaranthar

achesoma said:

Quest hub game design. Not a single mmo has deviated from this model it since WoW. Really, the concept of quests in MMOs need to be changed. A quest was supposed to be an epic adventure, not a laundry list of chores. And as long as xp is tied to quests, it becomes something you have to do and to be completed as fast as possible. Xp for quests is something that really needs to go away imo.

That brings up the question, "what should a quest be like in the new MMORPG?"

Iselin

The anti-WOW mentality in one sentence:

"Stop having fun the wrong way!"