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Putting Your Money Where Your Mouth Is

ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 14,881
Having just had a pop at people for not starting threads, I realised I hardly ever do a thread; hoisted, petard etc.

So it is time to talk about where gamming is going money wise and trying to work out where we will be in the future. Quick synopsis: we went from over the counter sales and monthly subscriptions to pay every which way with hangers on riding for free.

Thinking about those free players first of all, how free is free? It is really only a feature of MMOish games where I think developers want numbers as well as players. Well we know you can play for free and if you are prepared to spend oodles of time on a MMO you can see a fair chunk of the game. It is a sub par experience though and unless you think other players are only to be seen and not interacted with, just having extra numbers does not do much for a MMO. Personally I have rarely found anyone who is F2P prepared to put any effort into a guild, but if that's not your experience lets hear  it.

As to the money, I don't put my money where my mouth is, but what I mean by that is that I never pre-order, do crowd funding or the like. Outside of indie what companies truly need this upfront money? Gaming companies never needed this money before and now we have AAA releases like Destiny and MA expecting you to fund them before there is enough content in the game. Will you stand for that? Well enough of us do, where I think we should be reaching out is to the kids who are allowing this to happen, get on Reddit and whatever they use and say this is a crap situation. If they don't wise up, us old farts banging on will achieve nothing.

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AmatheAlBQuirkyMendelbcbullyGdemamixpsyncMars_OMG
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Comments

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,707
    I am seeing a sinking ship for me.

    "Always Connected" will be my downfall. When (not if) my Internet goes out, I can't play games? Sorry, but the US Internet system is shoddily built as mega ISPs buy smaller ones and do nothing but "maintain" what they bought. Data caps anyone? I currently have to pay a premium for a 2TB cap each month. With 100GB Games becoming more and more common, that will get expensive. Except for the times my Internet goes out :)

    Games as a Service (GaaS) is great if you buy nearly every new game that comes out, but not so great for players who don't "new games" as fun as old ones. I understand why companies want to go this route. It's good business sense. Instead of a massive influx of money at game release with trickles forever onward, they get a monthly income that players will "auto-renew" and forget about. Also, maybe I'm just too old school, but ownership means something to me. Disc in hand, game installation files on HDD, I have control and own something physical.

    I'll be a rat looking for another way while casually watch game development and see what catches my eye and playing my good old games that I still enjoy :)
    AmatheCatibrie

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
    edited September 2020
    I don't fund the making of games, any more than I would fund a pizzeria in order to buy a slice.

    Someone may say, "but if you want a certain kind of game ...."  If I do, and if that game can survive in the market, it will. It should not depend on me. If it depends on me, the moment I stop funding it, it dies. That is because it is driven by charity, not market demand.
    ScotmmolouAlBQuirky

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • AeanderAeander Member LegendaryPosts: 6,532
    edited September 2020
    I do tend to put my money where my mouth is when it comes to supporting favorite franchises or developers. Specifically, I feel comfortable purchasing and pre-ordering from Nintendo, Nihon Falcom, Square, and Atlus. 

    As far as dlc goes, I generally will purchase substantive story dlc or expansions. I generally won't purchase cosmetics for single player games (I might if I REALLY like them), but will purchase them for online ones.

    Oftentimes, my motivation for preordering will be to have a desired game in the mail on release day, often in tandem with vacation time. This year, I did that for Ghost of Tsushima and will be doing it again for Hyrule Warriors Age of Calamity.

    Next year, I'll probably be doing this with YS IX: Monstrum Nox or Trails of Cold Steel IV, as these have skyrocketed to my favorite franchise list this year. And the financially struggling Falcom needs and deserves support more than most.
    AlBQuirky
  • lahnmirlahnmir Member LegendaryPosts: 4,244
    edited September 2020
    I buy day one.
    I pre order.
    I buy double (sometimes triple).
    I buy expansions.
    I buy DLC.
    I crowdfund.

    I most definitely and unashamedly put my money where my mouth is, and then some. Money makes the world go round and nothing comes for free. Gaming is a dirt cheap hobby and I gladly support that which I love. It is definitely better than endless whining with nothing to play for it. Also, adapt. Just because many “gamers” stagnated early 2000s doesn’t mean the industry did. If it doesn’t fit you anymore watch Frozen a couple of times, ‘Let it go, let it goooooo.’

    Just my 2 cents, I have never been happier gaming then I am right now.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    blueturtle13RelampagoScotAlBQuirkyUngoodKidRiskCryomatrixKyleranimmodiumnate1980
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...



    'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless. 

    It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.

    It is just huge resource waste....'

    Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer

  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,788
    lahnmir said:
    I buy day one.
    I pre order.
    I buy double (sometimes triple).
    I buy expansions.
    I buy DLC.
    I crowdfund.

    I most definitely and unashamedly put my money where my mouth is, and then some. Money makes the world go round and nothing comes for free. Gaming is a dirt cheap hobby and I gladly support that which I love. It is definitely better than endless whining with nothing to play for it. Also, adapt. Just because many “gamers” stagnated early 2000s doesn’t mean the industry did. If it doesn’t fit you anymore watch Frozen a couple of times, ‘Let it go, let it goooooo.’

    Just my 2 cents, I have never been happier gaming then I am right now.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Well said mate 

    거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다












  • RelampagoRelampago Member UncommonPosts: 409
    lahnmir said:
    I buy day one.
    I pre order.
    I buy double (sometimes triple).
    I buy expansions.
    I buy DLC.
    I crowdfund.

    I most definitely and unashamedly put my money where my mouth is, and then some. Money makes the world go round and nothing comes for free. Gaming is a dirt cheap hobby and I gladly support that which I love. It is definitely better than endless whining with nothing to play for it. Also, adapt. Just because many “gamers” stagnated early 2000s doesn’t mean the industry did. If it doesn’t fit you anymore watch Frozen a couple of times, ‘Let it go, let it goooooo.’

    Just my 2 cents, I have never been happier gaming then I am right now.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Same.
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 29,603
    Amathe said:
    I don't fund the making of games, any more than I would fund a pizzeria in order to buy a slice.

    Someone may say, "but if you want a certain kind of game ...."  If I do, and if that game can survive in the market, it will. It should not depend on me. If it depends on me, the moment I stop funding it, it dies. That is because it is driven by charity, not market demand.
    I think there's a difference between extra funding for a game that is on the market and has to fight to stay in business and giving funding to a project that might not be sexy enough for producers to pony up money to fund its making.

    Given that I tend to like things that aren't popular on the market I'll gladly help fund something, doesn't have to be a game, if I know that it's in good hands and will continue or come to fruition.

    If I was to rely upon "the market" to bring me things I like I'd get very few things I like.
    ScotAlBQuirkytzervo
  • AeanderAeander Member LegendaryPosts: 6,532
    edited September 2020
    I don't normally crowdfund. I'm not the gambling type. But if someone wants to make a Guild Wars 1 spiritual successor, I'll bite. It's not like I'm getting one any other way.
    AlBQuirkyBranko2307
  • olepiolepi Member RarePosts: 1,557
    I don't crowdfund, and only donate very sparingly to indie developments. I also do not buy gambling crates, and rarely buy anything from an in-game store.

    I almost always subscribe to a MMORPG, and even will leave the subscription live when  not playing. In some games, that means I collect tons of in-game currency by being subscribed, and when I come back to the game in 6 months or a year, I'm rich. I'm probably subscribed to 5-6 games at a time, even though playing only one.

    I usually wait for 6 months after an MMO has released, to see how stable it is, and if it has good reviews. Paying for early access, or paying to play a beta isn't in the cards. And paying to play a perpetual alpha is even more absurd.
    AlBQuirky

    ------------
    2020: 43 years on the Net.


  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 14,881
    edited September 2020
    Aeander said:
    I don't normally crowdfund. I'm not the gambling type. But if someone wants to make a Guild Wars 1 spiritual successor, I'll bite. It's not like I'm getting one any other way.
    Isn't that rather like the KS MMO's which we were not going to get another way? As yet money has been put in and no resounding successes, at best I would call AO and SotA "alright" and for SotA that's pushing the boat out.

    lahnmir said:
    I buy day one.
    I pre order.
    I buy double (sometimes triple).
    I buy expansions.
    I buy DLC.
    I crowdfund.

    I most definitely and unashamedly put my money where my mouth is, and then some. Money makes the world go round and nothing comes for free. Gaming is a dirt cheap hobby and I gladly support that which I love. It is definitely better than endless whining with nothing to play for it. Also, adapt. Just because many “gamers” stagnated early 2000s doesn’t mean the industry did. If it doesn’t fit you anymore watch Frozen a couple of times, ‘Let it go, let it goooooo.’

    Just my 2 cents, I have never been happier gaming then I am right now.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Well I buy after seeing the reviews, so its hardly like I think gaming should be free. It is putting in with only the expectation of a good product I am questioning.

    I am not sure I would call gaming a "dirt cheap" hobby, just been looking at MA £50 is not "dirt cheap". But I would not say overall it was super expensive either, I would call it a significant expenditure. And you know its not actually the 50 smackers I am complaining about , it is what we are getting for them and will have to keep paying afterwards to keep up with the game.

    Just my £50, really not happy with how games are funded right now.
    AlBQuirky

    25 Agrees

    You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    Now Doesn't That Make You Feel All Warm And Fuzzy Inside? :P

  • AeanderAeander Member LegendaryPosts: 6,532
    Scot said:
    Aeander said:
    I don't normally crowdfund. I'm not the gambling type. But if someone wants to make a Guild Wars 1 spiritual successor, I'll bite. It's not like I'm getting one any other way.
    Isn't that rather like the KS MMO's which we were not going to get another way? As yet money has been put in and no resounding successes.

    lahnmir said:
    I buy day one.
    I pre order.
    I buy double (sometimes triple).
    I buy expansions.
    I buy DLC.
    I crowdfund.

    I most definitely and unashamedly put my money where my mouth is, and then some. Money makes the world go round and nothing comes for free. Gaming is a dirt cheap hobby and I gladly support that which I love. It is definitely better than endless whining with nothing to play for it. Also, adapt. Just because many “gamers” stagnated early 2000s doesn’t mean the industry did. If it doesn’t fit you anymore watch Frozen a couple of times, ‘Let it go, let it goooooo.’

    Just my 2 cents, I have never been happier gaming then I am right now.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Well I buy after seeing the reviews, so its hardly like I think gaming should be free. It is putting in with only the expectation of a good product I am questioning.

    I am not sure I would call gaming a "dirt cheap" hobby, just been looking at MA £50 is not "dirt cheap". But I would not say overall it was super expensive either, I would call it a significant expenditure. And you know its not actually the 50 smackers, it is what we are getting for them and will have to keep paying afterwards to keep up with the game.

    Just my £50, really not happy with how games are funded right now.
    I suppose it rather is. But GW1 was a CRPG, and the market has already shown that Kickstarter can produce great CRPGs.

    Hint, hint. If the Divinity Original Sin people want to get on that, I'd back it right the fuck now.
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 8,202
    "just having extra numbers does not do much for a MMO. "

    Wrong.....I know many people who will not play a MMO unless it has alot of players...... We see here all the time 'game XX has 1 million registered players, game YY has 100 thousand playing simultaneously, game ZZ has 10 million subs, etc etc etc.......Let's face it most gamers are sheep...They go where the other sheep go. They go where the streamers and other influencers tell them to go.
    AlBQuirky
  • AeanderAeander Member LegendaryPosts: 6,532
    "just having extra numbers does not do much for a MMO. "

    Wrong.....I know many people who will not play a MMO unless it has alot of players...... We see here all the time 'game XX has 1 million registered players, game YY has 100 thousand playing simultaneously, game ZZ has 10 million subs, etc etc etc.......Let's face it most gamers are sheep...They go where the other sheep go. They go where the streamers and other influencers tell them to go.
    It's not just being sheep. Massively is literally the first word in the genre. These games are designed to require healthy populations to function properly. More popular MMOs are ones that are functioning more as intended.
    AlBQuirkytzervo
  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 7,496
    Unfortunately, most people don't care (and honestly haven't ever cared) about 'making a difference.' This is true about everything in life, not just the way the market is going. There's always going to be a small fraction that want their actions to 'make a difference' and honestly, if people realized that things only change/stay the same based on a united front, then it could happen, but again the masses either don't or just don't care.

    More focused on gaming, why do many people game? Regardless of a specified reason, its usually something personal, which is obvious. This leads ties into why people maybe/may not care about the direction gaming is going in. If you're someone who likes to spend their little free time logging in and doing dailies/having a few matches/etc, chances are you won't care how much that is costing you financially and even if it starts to, you'll usually end up being able to find something else. This is the main reason why companies are more focused on MAUs vs how much money they are actually pulling in on a quarterly basis, because people will be more inclined to spend more if they have a bigger time investment in something.

    The unfortunate reality is that true gamers are irrelevant compared to 10+ years ago, because games aren't being designed for gamers at the for front. They're being designed for people that want to kill time 'efficiently.'

    As for crowdfunding, I have admittedly put money into projects like Pantheon and Project Gorgon and don't really regret doing so because I considered it more of a donation than an investment at the time (and it wasn't really anything to make a 'dent' anyway), but as a whole I'm against it simply because there's no responsibility to make something within a 'reasonable' timeframe or accountability if they produce results. Sure, games take time and many of the people trying to get funded to have a laundry list of experience working with big titles. The reality is though, they did so under someone/something at the time and had to do so with responsibility/accountability heavily involved.

    This pretty much brings me to the engrossing thought that another 'successful' mmorpg wont be coming unless a solid company wants one. People will argue that Albion is successful, and it is, but how long post-launch did it take for that to happen, be honest and it didn't happen until it went f2p, which works best for a game like that imo. People will defend Ashes, which is fine to do so, but think about how rocky of a development that game has had so far, with many people feeling resources were 'wasted' on the BR that the Ashes team later admitted they didn't need as much as they thought they did. Even if Ashes does create an actual mmorpg, that's not even the hardest part. Content updates, bug fixes, progression, seasonal events, etc, how long will of those things take? Can they really compete enough for them to turn a 'reasonable' profit or will they just pull a Bethesda and say "things change" (referring to Fallout 76 not being so 'cosmetic' only).

    End of the day, most people don't want to be heroes and will just float cash into whatever looks good at the time because more and more people are realizing that time is more valuable than money and good luck trying to change that perspective.
    ScotMars_OMG
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,707
    edited September 2020
    lahnmir said:
    I buy day one.
    I pre order.
    I buy double (sometimes triple).
    I buy expansions.
    I buy DLC.
    I crowdfund.

    I most definitely and unashamedly put my money where my mouth is, and then some. Money makes the world go round and nothing comes for free. Gaming is a dirt cheap hobby and I gladly support that which I love. It is definitely better than endless whining with nothing to play for it. Also, adapt. Just because many “gamers” stagnated early 2000s doesn’t mean the industry did. If it doesn’t fit you anymore watch Frozen a couple of times, ‘Let it go, let it goooooo.’

    Just my 2 cents, I have never been happier gaming then I am right now.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir

    That's great that you enjoy gaming today. Unfortunately, they are just not consistantly "fun" for me. As you reward publishers for their "new" business practices, they keep on going.

    I don't ever want free games. I would love for quality to come back into gaming, though. Games without massive game breaking bugs, with day 1 DLC and mega-GB patches, or "Collector's Editions" with crappy in game or simply digital "rewards." The games I love, I buy. And I buy them again and again. 4 copies of Morrowind, 2 of Skyrim, multiple games from Steam that appeared later on GoG. Money is NOT the sticky wicket for me, quality is.

    So I'll just move over and let you move on :)

    PS: Yes, your post resonated with me: "If the shoe fits, wear it."
    KyleranScotCatibrie

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • AeanderAeander Member LegendaryPosts: 6,532
    edited September 2020
    AlBQuirky said:
    lahnmir said:
    I buy day one.
    I pre order.
    I buy double (sometimes triple).
    I buy expansions.
    I buy DLC.
    I crowdfund.

    I most definitely and unashamedly put my money where my mouth is, and then some. Money makes the world go round and nothing comes for free. Gaming is a dirt cheap hobby and I gladly support that which I love. It is definitely better than endless whining with nothing to play for it. Also, adapt. Just because many “gamers” stagnated early 2000s doesn’t mean the industry did. If it doesn’t fit you anymore watch Frozen a couple of times, ‘Let it go, let it goooooo.’

    Just my 2 cents, I have never been happier gaming then I am right now.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir

    That's great that you enjoy gaming today. Unfortunately, they are just not consistantly "fun" for me. As you reward publishers for their "new" business practices, they keep on going.

    I don't ever want free games. I would love for quality to come back into gaming, though. Games without massive game breaking bugs, with day 1 DLC and mega-GB patches, or "Collector's Editions" with crappy in game or simply digital "rewards." The games I love, I buy. And I buy them again and again. 4 copies of Morrowind, 2 of Skyrim, multiple games from Steam that appeared later on GoG. Money is NOT the sticky wicket for me, quality is.

    So I'll just move over and let you move on :)

    PS: Yes, your post resonated with me: "If the shoe fits, wear it."
    I'm sorry, but if "no game breaking bugs" is your sticking point, that doesn't mesh with "I bought Morrowind 4 times and Skyrim 2 times." Skyrim is how we got to massive game breaking bugs on launch.
    SovrathAlBQuirky
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 29,603
    Aeander said:

    I'm sorry, but if "no game breaking bugs" is your sticking point, that doesn't mesh with "I bought Morrowind 4 times and Skyrim 2 times." Skyrim is how we got to massive game breaking bugs on launch.
    I Wouldn't go so far as to say "massive game breaking bugs" for Skyrim but there were bugs.

    I only had one "game breaking bug" which was a crash to desktop when I entered a certain cave. I did have a crash in the very first keep when you are running from the dragon and there is a collapse blocking you from the bridge you crossed but a restart and a 2nd attempt was fine.

    Still, those games do have a lot of bugs.
    AlBQuirky
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
    I'n not banging on how other people spend their money. That is 100% their decision. 

    And if someone wants to finance and build a game by crowd funding, so long as they are acting in good faith, that's fine too.

    Just speaking for myself, I will wait for release before I spend. 
    AeandertzervoKyleranAlBQuirkyTheocritusNyghthowlerxpsync

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • tzervotzervo Member EpicPosts: 1,061
    edited September 2020
    Amathe said:
    I'n not banging on how other people spend their money. That is 100% their decision. 

    And if someone wants to finance and build a game by crowd funding, so long as they are acting in good faith, that's fine too.

    Just speaking for myself, I will wait for release before I spend. 
    It's just that in your first post it was not clear (at least to me) what you mean by funding: giving money to a released game or crowdfunding/kickstarting?

    For a released game, it is like you said up to the market it is not going to be saved just by you.

    For a crowdfunded game noone really knows if the market wants it. People can only speculate or make educated guesses. So crowdfunding is the studio moving that risk to the funding player.

    - You might want to give money because like Sovrath said it is the only way to get it out to the market and THEN see if it can survive it (E:D, Albion, P:G did, the rest did not).

    - You might not want to give money because you do not feel like taking the risk or because you do not trust the studio.

    I am on the second camp like you. I see the raison d'etre of crowdfunding but don't believe it is worth the risks. There are not enough safeguards to filter out bad ventures and scams.
    SovrathScot
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
    I meant money spent on a game for use in its development pre-release, be it crowd funding, kickstarting, solicitation of donations, or the pre-release sale of items, benefits,  or access.I'm sure there are more examples.

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • lahnmirlahnmir Member LegendaryPosts: 4,244
    AlBQuirky said:
    lahnmir said:
    I buy day one.
    I pre order.
    I buy double (sometimes triple).
    I buy expansions.
    I buy DLC.
    I crowdfund.

    I most definitely and unashamedly put my money where my mouth is, and then some. Money makes the world go round and nothing comes for free. Gaming is a dirt cheap hobby and I gladly support that which I love. It is definitely better than endless whining with nothing to play for it. Also, adapt. Just because many “gamers” stagnated early 2000s doesn’t mean the industry did. If it doesn’t fit you anymore watch Frozen a couple of times, ‘Let it go, let it goooooo.’

    Just my 2 cents, I have never been happier gaming then I am right now.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir

    That's great that you enjoy gaming today. Unfortunately, they are just not consistantly "fun" for me. As you reward publishers for their "new" business practices, they keep on going.

    I don't ever want free games. I would love for quality to come back into gaming, though. Games without massive game breaking bugs, with day 1 DLC and mega-GB patches, or "Collector's Editions" with crappy in game or simply digital "rewards." The games I love, I buy. And I buy them again and again. 4 copies of Morrowind, 2 of Skyrim, multiple games from Steam that appeared later on GoG. Money is NOT the sticky wicket for me, quality is.

    So I'll just move over and let you move on :)

    PS: Yes, your post resonated with me: "If the shoe fits, wear it."
    I think you touch on a very important point, they are just not "fun" for you anymore. I am convinced that gaming hasn't gotten better or worse over the years, just different. If however you keep filtering the current through the lens of the past you will always be disappointed. Thats why I jokingly and (bluntly) mentioned Frozen, not to let go of gaming necessarily but to look at it free from the shackles of old. And perhaps you (general you, not specific you) have changed as well and you're not compatible anymore. Really, many people here sound like they are in a bad relationship with gaming and just can't leave it behind.

    I love music, much, much more then gaming. My favorite artist of all time is David Bowie. I consider every one of his records an absolute masterpiece, his final work Blackstar might be my favourite album ever. And then he died. And I looked at the current music scene trying to find my David Bowie. Many were influenced by him but none came even close to being him, everything disappointed. And then I stopped looking, I realised that there isn't a new Bowie and there doesn't have to be one. I didn't let music go, I did let go of my mindset and still greatly enjoy music, even new artists.

    Ahh well, I am rambling. I do know that when my love for gaming is gone, or when games aren't being made for me anymore, I will just walk away. I already have a 30 year great run anyways.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...



    'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless. 

    It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.

    It is just huge resource waste....'

    Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer

  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 5,563
    I have always been a firm believer that to "Vote with your Wallet" the money needs to leave your wallet for it be counted.

    To give an idea here, I still spend as much on games as I always have, how much I spend has not ever changed, simply where it went changed, this is how voting works in my mind.

    Case in point, when GW2, put out HoT and raids, I got fed up and left. I played other games and spent my money there.

    Now keep in mind that is not the same as those people that swear they will never spend a cent on game XYZ again, for whatever butthurt reasons they may have, and yet religiously play the game they will never spend any money on.

    To me, this was me, saying "Ok, you don't feel I am a valuable market, and you want to run off and pursue another demographic, I wish you well and hope they pick up the bill, meanwhile, I will spend the money I was going to spend on your game somewhere else"

    In no way did I stop spending money on a hobby I love and enjoy.

    See that to me what voting with your wallet means.. it means you continue to support stuff, but you focus on what you want to support, and give them your money.

    When people see the money move, they will follow it.

    If they don't see the money move, they have nothing to follow.

    Just my feels on it.

    So, yes, I spend money on games, I never stopped spending my money, and if I opt to stop spending money on game, I damn well spend it on other ones.

    That way.. people have something to follow.. and that IMHO, is how you vote with your wallet.

    A Closed wallet casts no votes.
    Scot
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Member EpicPosts: 3,141
    lahnmir said:
    I buy day one.
    I pre order.
    I buy double (sometimes triple).
    I buy expansions.
    I buy DLC.
    I crowdfund.

    I most definitely and unashamedly put my money where my mouth is, and then some. Money makes the world go round and nothing comes for free. Gaming is a dirt cheap hobby and I gladly support that which I love. It is definitely better than endless whining with nothing to play for it. Also, adapt. Just because many “gamers” stagnated early 2000s doesn’t mean the industry did. If it doesn’t fit you anymore watch Frozen a couple of times, ‘Let it go, let it goooooo.’

    Just my 2 cents, I have never been happier gaming then I am right now.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    I dont buy day one
    I never pre order
    I only buy once
    I buy expansions on sale
    I buy dlc on sale
    I never crowdfund
    I usually only buy on sale

    However, I agree with your post and logic. I dont have to do what you do to agree with your thought process.

    You do you, and i do me.

    . . .  Another $1k usd into project entropia . . .
    lahnmirScot
    Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix
    You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations. 
  • cameltosiscameltosis Member EpicPosts: 2,913
    Scot said:
    Having just had a pop at people for not starting threads, I realised I hardly ever do a thread; hoisted, petard etc.

    So it is time to talk about where gamming is going money wise and trying to work out where we will be in the future. Quick synopsis: we went from over the counter sales and monthly subscriptions to pay every which way with hangers on riding for free.

    Thinking about those free players first of all, how free is free? It is really only a feature of MMOish games where I think developers want numbers as well as players. Well we know you can play for free and if you are prepared to spend oodles of time on a MMO you can see a fair chunk of the game. It is a sub par experience though and unless you think other players are only to be seen and not interacted with, just having extra numbers does not do much for a MMO. Personally I have rarely found anyone who is F2P prepared to put any effort into a guild, but if that's not your experience lets hear  it.

    As to the money, I don't put my money where my mouth is, but what I mean by that is that I never pre-order, do crowd funding or the like. Outside of indie what companies truly need this upfront money? Gaming companies never needed this money before and now we have AAA releases like Destiny and MA expecting you to fund them before there is enough content in the game. Will you stand for that? Well enough of us do, where I think we should be reaching out is to the kids who are allowing this to happen, get on Reddit and whatever they use and say this is a crap situation. If they don't wise up, us old farts banging on will achieve nothing.

    My personal spending habits: everything is bought after a cost-benefit analysis. Do I think the product is worth what they're asking for it?

    If it's a game I really want to play, I'll either pre-order (if there's a good reason to) or buy it day 1. If I only kinda wanna play it, I'll add it to wishlist and buy during a sale. Same with DLC - if it's worth it, I'll buy. This is very rare, I think most DLC is overpriced. I never play free-2-play games. I never crowd fund. I've only twice bought early access.


    On to what I think the main gist of your post was about: where is the market going in regards to money / business models?


    There are a few basic business models:

    Upfront purchase - B2P
    Subscription
    Microtransactions / Part purchases - F2P / DLC
    Advertising Funded
    Hybrids


    Each business model is suited to a different design, so what I think we'll see in the future is devs figuring out either the correct business model, or the correct design.


    An upfront purchase is suited for an mmo with minimal or no ongoing development. This is a concept that hasn't really been explored much YET, but I think it will be. I predict something like battlefield or call of duty, but with 1000 player maps. That would make it massively multiplayer, but you could release the game for an upfront cost, then just do some bug fixes. No reason you have to keep expanding the same game. Having that many players means you get to experiment with new types of gameplay - organised / systemised leadership. Rather than everyone shooting, maybe you have 1 in 20 players issuing orders / advice? I don't know, but plenty of potential....if you can get the engine working.


    Subscription is best suited to games that aim to retain their players. Community is a great way to do this, and subscriptions act as a good filter for the types of players who don't really want to be there. You end up with a smaller potential market, but if you can get them in game, they'll be sticking around long term and a predictable income stream is good. That said, designing a game that genuinely retains players is tough to do, especially in a competitive market.


    Microtransaction and part purchases are best suited to games that are shorter term, but where the studios want to keep it going long term. Low barrier to entry means wider market, so getting a smaller amount of money out of a larger amount of players works out ok. Still generally requires quite a large player base in order to get the right percentage of conversions, and thus income.


    Advertising funded is also not something that we've seen much of, but it works incredibly well in other industries. Entire product is free, but there are adverts in game to pay the devs. Should work in games, just like with Facebook and Google and most TV channels, but really big problem with how to integrate it properly. 3 minutes of ads when you complete a level? A big movie trailer just before you take on the final boss? Or Geralt drinking a coke in a tavern, instead of a pint of ale? I dread to think of games made using this business model, but it's been too successful in other industries to not be tried here.


    Hyrids, ofc, can be suited to many things as maybe your game includes multiple styles and designs so suits more markets.



    Also, the games market is still relatively young.

    Eventually, we'll end up with a balanced market with roughly the right percentage of games aimed at the right percentages of each market (e.g. 60% themepark, 10% sandbox, 30% sandpark?), but there will still be natural fluctuations. Humans are pretty creative, and investors are pretty greedy, so there will always be new, exciting games followed by a wave of copycats.



    My biggest unknown when it comes to business models is going to be the impact of data privacy. We're starting to wake up to just how intrusive some companies can get with our personal data, and just how damaging it can be when the wrong people get their hands on that data. We're starting to see new laws about data privacy (e.g the gdpr) so i can imagine a future where these laws start getting stricter and start getting enforced. In such an event, advertising and targeted adds for things like microtransaction will become much less effective, so that could have an effects on games. I also really hope this happens!
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 14,881
    edited September 2020
    Aeander said:
    I suppose it rather is. But GW1 was a CRPG, and the market has already shown that Kickstarter can produce great CRPGs.

    Hint, hint. If the Divinity Original Sin people want to get on that, I'd back it right the fuck now.
    I am with you there, we have some great CRPG creators, it is not my preferred format as I am a 3D purist, but games like DOS, PoE and Wasteland can't be missed. Maybe that's the answer to the really long development cycles we have seen, maybe the KS should have been CRPG MMOs?

    "just having extra numbers does not do much for a MMO. "

    Wrong.....I know many people who will not play a MMO unless it has alot of players...... We see here all the time 'game XX has 1 million registered players, game YY has 100 thousand playing simultaneously, game ZZ has 10 million subs, etc etc etc.......Let's face it most gamers are sheep...They go where the other sheep go. They go where the streamers and other influencers tell them to go.
    I agree, but I still don't think numbers do much for a MMO in terms of gameplay. We know many players like to see capes rushing past them, but in terms of interaction it means zilch. This thread was a personal take you know.

    Albatroes said:
    The unfortunate reality is that true gamers are irrelevant compared to 10+ years ago, because games aren't being designed for gamers at the for front. They're being designed for people that want to kill time 'efficiently.'

    Sadly true, but I would add expensively to that, one thing they are not saving is money.

    Amathe said:
    I'n not banging on how other people spend their money. That is 100% their decision. 

    And if someone wants to finance and build a game by crowd funding, so long as they are acting in good faith, that's fine too.

    Just speaking for myself, I will wait for release before I spend. 
    I am banging on about how people spend their money, but I have nothing against crowd funding, just questioning the funding model when it goes too far. My concern here is more how AAA are learning from CF and are deciding to put out "launched" games in what is really an early access state. I am always going to give indie more leeway, they don't have the finance to start with.

    cameltosis said:

    My personal spending habits: everything is bought after a cost-benefit analysis. Do I think the product is worth what they're asking for it?

    If it's a game I really want to play, I'll either pre-order (if there's a good reason to) or buy it day 1. If I only kinda wanna play it, I'll add it to wishlist and buy during a sale. Same with DLC - if it's worth it, I'll buy. This is very rare, I think most DLC is overpriced. I never play free-2-play games. I never crowd fund. I've only twice bought early access.


    On to what I think the main gist of your post was about: where is the market going in regards to money / business models?


    There are a few basic business models:

    Upfront purchase - B2P
    Subscription
    Microtransactions / Part purchases - F2P / DLC
    Advertising Funded
    Hybrids

    I have suggested before on here that advertising would be preferable to some of the funding models we now have. The problem there is that we know it will become just another part of the "cash shop". Advertising will not replace elements of bad funding, it will just be added to them and not enough of us will object, games will still be bought in droves even with product placement.

    Because that's been the history of financing games, they come up with something new and we just keep accepting it. I mentioned in my post that I would look at the future and forgot to write about that. This is where I think gaming will go next, sit back and have a drink from your cocoa cola themed tankard in the inn, what could possibly be wrong with that?!


    P.S. As much as I disagree with Lahnmir on this he is a Bowie fan, so at least he knows his music. :)
    lahnmirAlBQuirkyGdemami

    25 Agrees

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