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Face to face trading vs. Auction House

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  • CrystallineNMCrystallineNM Member UncommonPosts: 45
    Kyleran said:
    I loathe person to person trading when haggling is involved. I ask how much, they reply *make offer" and I just walk away.


    Oh this absolutely. If you're selling something in trade but tell anyone who inquires to "make offer" you can go straight to Hell.
    You get mad about it? No reason for that. 
    I always just walked away. Mainly because I didn't have a clue what the value was for the items, in many cases. But I was aware that the seller was not going to sell for a reasonable price by that action. Or maybe they didn't have a clue to it's value either. 
    C'est la vie. 
    I get mad about it because if I'm going through the effort of buying it off a person its something I really need but can't find elsewhere and when they pull this move I basically get locked out of a simple trade while they try to role-play Pawn Stars.
    KyleranAlBQuirky
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,707
    Mykell said:
    A system with both of course. An AH that everyone can use but a crafting system that has the name of the crafter on the items he makes, so if you want to seek out a high level crafter and try and do a deal with them you can. Multiple options are always the best.

    I think this may be just me, but I've yet to play a game with such an in depth crafting system that there are actual differences in quality. My bag is the same everyone else's, or armor or weapon or food or potion. Quality is something I have not seen a crafting system yet :)
    Catibrie

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
    AlBQuirky said:
    Mykell said:
    A system with both of course. An AH that everyone can use but a crafting system that has the name of the crafter on the items he makes, so if you want to seek out a high level crafter and try and do a deal with them you can. Multiple options are always the best.

    I think this may be just me, but I've yet to play a game with such an in depth crafting system that there are actual differences in quality. My bag is the same everyone else's, or armor or weapon or food or potion. Quality is something I have not seen a crafting system yet :)
    Original SWG and EQ2 had variations in quality for crafted goods.
    tzervoCrystallineNMAlBQuirky

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 37,540
    Amathe said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Mykell said:
    A system with both of course. An AH that everyone can use but a crafting system that has the name of the crafter on the items he makes, so if you want to seek out a high level crafter and try and do a deal with them you can. Multiple options are always the best.

    I think this may be just me, but I've yet to play a game with such an in depth crafting system that there are actual differences in quality. My bag is the same everyone else's, or armor or weapon or food or potion. Quality is something I have not seen a crafting system yet :)
    Original SWG and EQ2 had variations in quality for crafted goods.
    DAOC had a quality factor to it's crafting as well, with 100% being the hardest to make which meant they sold for a much greater premium than 99% and 98% items did.
    tzervoAlBQuirky

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • iixviiiixiixviiiix Member RarePosts: 2,223
    Even with AH , people still prefer to trade face to face. As i play many MMORPG , people keep using trade channel to sell the item instead of put them on AH
    AlBQuirky
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 5,563
    Mykell said:
    A system with both of course. An AH that everyone can use but a crafting system that has the name of the crafter on the items he makes, so if you want to seek out a high level crafter and try and do a deal with them you can. Multiple options are always the best.
    What I'm afraid of happening there is that the information is too readily available, on who those high level crafters are. Once that's in, then the top merchandisers will be taking advantage of it and a form of monopoly arises. That locks out everyone else. 
    Sometimes, perfection isn't perfect for all, only those who control it. 

    I think the design needs to leave some wildness in it so that doesn't happen. 

    You're going to have some of that no matter what.
    Without a public auction house, however, only player shops with vendors, it's possible for some skilled Crafts players to go unnoticed due to being out of the way, and known only to fewer players. They may not be interested in constantly maintaining a shop, but willing to produce on demand for those who know them. 
    Some form of notification, like a bulletin board on their house/shop, would be beneficial for that sort of player, too. Or maybe a "mail" system built into the game. 
    "Send them a pigeon." 


    Well I am not sure about other games, but in Crowfall, during the Live Alpha, my guild had Guild Crafters, and these 4 people would make whatever a guild member needed, within reason and commitment, IE: new players got low level stuff, more long term players got better stuff, etc.

    We also had people that were harvesters, and they would go out and directly harvest, like I got only one member of my static involved, and we would do motherload harvesting, which was cool, and then give materials to the guild to make what was needed to equip our fellow guild members (and ourselves. so we as a team and a guild could crush those before us. 

    Because, well in Crowfall gear made a huge difference, so that was a way by which we could ensure victory.
    AmarantharAlBQuirky
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Member EpicPosts: 5,053
    It depends on the game, but I prefer an AH except for games like Diablo/POE that are all about finding loot.  I agree with GGG's, and David Brevik's, stance on an AH in an ARPG.  Which is that if you can't make it too easy to "find and acquire" items otherwise people will just flood the market with stuff and everyone will want to use it all the time.   D2 and POE have a good balance in that regard.  sometimes people will send you a tell that they want to buy something you are selling, and you have to decide if it's worth the time to stop what you are doing to sell it.

    Although I wouldn't mind if GGG tried one league where there was an AH that used "bind on transfer".  This would at least get rid of flippers.  They could theoretically add another currency item that's very rare and will unbind an item.  This would make the really valuable stuff resellable at least.
    AlBQuirky
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,387
    Ungood said:
    Mykell said:
    A system with both of course. An AH that everyone can use but a crafting system that has the name of the crafter on the items he makes, so if you want to seek out a high level crafter and try and do a deal with them you can. Multiple options are always the best.
    What I'm afraid of happening there is that the information is too readily available, on who those high level crafters are. Once that's in, then the top merchandisers will be taking advantage of it and a form of monopoly arises. That locks out everyone else. 
    Sometimes, perfection isn't perfect for all, only those who control it. 

    I think the design needs to leave some wildness in it so that doesn't happen. 

    You're going to have some of that no matter what.
    Without a public auction house, however, only player shops with vendors, it's possible for some skilled Crafts players to go unnoticed due to being out of the way, and known only to fewer players. They may not be interested in constantly maintaining a shop, but willing to produce on demand for those who know them. 
    Some form of notification, like a bulletin board on their house/shop, would be beneficial for that sort of player, too. Or maybe a "mail" system built into the game. 
    "Send them a pigeon." 


    Well I am not sure about other games, but in Crowfall, during the Live Alpha, my guild had Guild Crafters, and these 4 people would make whatever a guild member needed, within reason and commitment, IE: new players got low level stuff, more long term players got better stuff, etc.

    We also had people that were harvesters, and they would go out and directly harvest, like I got only one member of my static involved, and we would do motherload harvesting, which was cool, and then give materials to the guild to make what was needed to equip our fellow guild members (and ourselves. so we as a team and a guild could crush those before us. 

    Because, well in Crowfall gear made a huge difference, so that was a way by which we could ensure victory.
    Guilds that work together stay together, and are awesome! 
    Ungoodcameltosis

    Once upon a time....

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,387
    Kyleran said:
    I loathe person to person trading when haggling is involved. I ask how much, they reply *make offer" and I just walk away.


    Oh this absolutely. If you're selling something in trade but tell anyone who inquires to "make offer" you can go straight to Hell.
    You get mad about it? No reason for that. 
    I always just walked away. Mainly because I didn't have a clue what the value was for the items, in many cases. But I was aware that the seller was not going to sell for a reasonable price by that action. Or maybe they didn't have a clue to it's value either. 
    C'est la vie. 
    I get mad about it because if I'm going through the effort of buying it off a person its something I really need but can't find elsewhere and when they pull this move I basically get locked out of a simple trade while they try to role-play Pawn Stars.
    Oh heck, next time just give them a lowball offer. If anyone's going to walk away angry, let it be them. 
    If more people did this, they'd learn not to pull that. 
    Although, as I pointed out, they may not know what the value is, and just trying to do the best they can too.  :/  
    TwistedSister77AlBQuirky

    Once upon a time....

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,387
    Kyleran said:
    Amathe said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Mykell said:
    A system with both of course. An AH that everyone can use but a crafting system that has the name of the crafter on the items he makes, so if you want to seek out a high level crafter and try and do a deal with them you can. Multiple options are always the best.

    I think this may be just me, but I've yet to play a game with such an in depth crafting system that there are actual differences in quality. My bag is the same everyone else's, or armor or weapon or food or potion. Quality is something I have not seen a crafting system yet :)
    Original SWG and EQ2 had variations in quality for crafted goods.
    DAOC had a quality factor to it's crafting as well, with 100% being the hardest to make which meant they sold for a much greater premium than 99% and 98% items did.
    UO had a system where weapons and armor had 5 ratings each in 3 different categories related to durability, damage, and (accuracy, I think). 
    Skill determined the chances, like that. 

    With 3 aspects that were affected by the Smithing skill, it was pretty rare to make a weapon that was tops in all three. 
    AlBQuirky

    Once upon a time....

  • TwistedSister77TwistedSister77 Member RarePosts: 757
    edited September 2020
    I like AH that charge fees... which then incentivizes player to player trading. 

    Also, I like AH that list the sellers... 2 reasons:

    1) I can see if someone is trying corner the market (given they still can on multiple alts... but I usually check if players are online at the same time) and prices are gorged.

    2) I can make muti item bids (package deals and no AH fees) to the seller for less gold by messaging them.

    Overall, I do like AH, because it's convenient and when I'm bored I can usually just easily make decent gold by buying low and selling high.  Easy money :smile:
    AlBQuirky
  • LackingMMOLackingMMO Member RarePosts: 554
    I prefer both systems, wish there was a way to combine the two in a meaningful way. I really liked the interaction with people but the convenience of auction houses. 
    AlBQuirkyMendel
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 1,964
    Person to person and personal shops are the best. 

    Markets, like even online, are next. 

    Auction houses are shit. 
    AlBQuirky
  • VrikaVrika Member EpicPosts: 6,797
    Gdemami said:
    So, my preferences:


    If the game is designed around a proper player economy, based on crafted items and not looted items, then I prefer player shops and no auction house. If you've made the crafting experience important, then it makes sense to make the selling experience important too.


    If the game is designed around loot, like nearly every mmo out there today, then I prefer an auction house. If the crafting is only going to be a minor side activity, then may as well keep things simple with an auction house. I don't want to waste my time travelling to player shops just to buy some potions or to twink an alt. 
    ...while common sense dictates the opposite.
    Your common sense should dictate that preferences are not a question of common sense.
    KyleranAlBQuirkyGdemami
     
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,387
    edited September 2020
    Vrika said:
    Gdemami said:
    So, my preferences:


    If the game is designed around a proper player economy, based on crafted items and not looted items, then I prefer player shops and no auction house. If you've made the crafting experience important, then it makes sense to make the selling experience important too.


    If the game is designed around loot, like nearly every mmo out there today, then I prefer an auction house. If the crafting is only going to be a minor side activity, then may as well keep things simple with an auction house. I don't want to waste my time travelling to player shops just to buy some potions or to twink an alt. 
    ...while common sense dictates the opposite.
    Your common sense should dictate that preferences are not a question of common sense.
    Actually they are ( I may be nitpicking here), but it's a question of what end result you want. 
    The Laugher doesn't get that. He wants quick and easy and nothing more, while mocking any other meaning.
    Most of us want more, some interaction with others, some kind of opening into meeting others and perhaps forming a relationship based on playing the game and expanding our web of associations. 
    Even learning about another player we've never met, and knowing what they do in the game, that builds a social network of sorts. Having that information available to pass on is also a social element. 

    These things do give players a little more depth to their game. If they want that sort of thing. And people being people, most of us do want at least some of that. 
    It's human nature. 
    Guilds may be enough, but if a game can expand that to a little wider scope, that's a good thing IMO. 

    Once upon a time....

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,707
    Player owned shops (houses) with player owned vendors is also a good one. You could often meet the player owner and work out deals, even long running "contracts." 


    I've been wondering about this. Isn't this just a player shop instead of an NPC one? Is there face to face here? Conversations? I can see it when the "shop owner" is online and in their shop, but otherwise isn't it just like an NPC shop.

    I'm having trouble thinking about players that stay in their store for 100% of their time online, but I could very well be wrong :)
    Catibrie

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,387
    edited September 2020
    AlBQuirky said:
    Player owned shops (houses) with player owned vendors is also a good one. You could often meet the player owner and work out deals, even long running "contracts." 


    I've been wondering about this. Isn't this just a player shop instead of an NPC one? Is there face to face here? Conversations? I can see it when the "shop owner" is online and in their shop, but otherwise isn't it just like an NPC shop.

    I'm having trouble thinking about players that stay in their store for 100% of their time online, but I could very well be wrong :)
    It's at a Player's house. Simply buying a NPC vendor and placing them there, on a patio, in rooms, on the front steps. 
    The Player has to stock the NPC vendor (and restock) and set the prices. 

    Meeting them is coincidence, unless it's arranged. 
    Players did have to stock their NPC vendors and set the prices. They also usually did their crafting in their house. So there was some time spent there on a regular basis. And if they saw someone outside shopping their vendors, that's when they'd usually come out to say "hi" and "thank you for shopping here", etc., and strike up a conversation.  
    It didn't take much time to craft, stock, or any of that. Maybe half an hour crafting AND stocking, at most, usually. So players had most of their time free to play other aspects of the game. 

    UO had both a bulletin board that players could hang on their houses, next to the front door, that both they and visitors could leave messages on. 
    UO also had books that a player could lock down, anywhere they chose, but only the owner could leave a message in it, if I recall. 
    Players could also leave their own books with a message, but it wasn't locked down, so anyone could take it. 

    And just as a side, UO had their Runestones that could be marked to a location for Recall or Gate spell use. Those also could be locked down at a Player's house (by the house owner). That was a convenience. 
    Some players had what was called "Rune Libraries", with a lot of Marked Runestones to all kinds of places. Cities, banks, Dungeons, other house shops, islands, etc. 

    Also, they added NPC vendors that could be rented to other players for their own use, at the owner's house. For Guilds, mainly, but anyone could do it. 

    Vendors could be dressed up as the owners wanted, and named (often used to say what they had stocked on them). Or a player could lock down what was being sold (on the NPC vendor) anywhere around them. 

    (Locking down items was something only a house owner could do, only at their own house, and couldn't be picked up by anyone else. Anything could be locked down, and UO had "items on the ground" where everything a player had could be placed on the ground/table/floor, etc.) 

    AlBQuirkytzervo

    Once upon a time....

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,387
    edited September 2020
    Here's a picture of a well organized Player house/shop in UO. 




    And a couple of places, side by side, obviously organized (as the vendors are dressed the same). 
    (The floors above were invisible when you were inside.) 




    Remember, this was in the early days of MMORPGs. 
    AlBQuirky

    Once upon a time....

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 14,881
    edited September 2020
    Like every other MMORPG system, how to trade has no perfect solution. It is not just player preference but how well it actually works, which depends on the game. A game like BDO demands a far better trading system than DAOC did for example.

    I am not a fan of the sort of depth of trading seen in BDO but if the MMO is like that an auction house is a must. It is simply a matter of taking too much time any other way. But there my own bias is creeping in, I thought the whole trading process in BDO took far to much time, perhaps for "trader players" taking longer with shops and player to player would be fine?

    I have never really taken up crafting, only ever acted as a quartermaster to guilds I have been in, organising resources and the like. Indeed collecting resources is a restful activity I can spend ages on without noticing time going by.

    Thinking about guilds has swung my vote. For me the simpler the better, but just about all the crafter and trader types I know say shops and player to player as well or instead; so I will vote for that as your guilds crafters are the experts in these matters.
    AmarantharAlBQuirky

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  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 14,881
    edited September 2020
    Lonesols said:
    Scot said:
    Like every other MMORPG system, how to trade has no perfect solution. It is not just player preference but how well it actually works, which depends on the game. A game like BDO demands a far better trading system than DAOC did for example.

    I am not a fan of the sort of depth of trading seen in BDO but if the MMO is like that an auction house is a must. It is simply a matter of taking too much time any other way. But there my own bias is creeping in, I thought the whole trading process in BDO took far to much time, perhaps for "trader players" taking longer with shops and player to player would be fine?

    I have never really taken up crafting, only ever acted as a quartermaster to guilds I have been in, organising resources and the like. Indeed collecting resources is a restful activity I can spend ages on without noticing time going by.

    Thinking about guilds has swung my vote. For me the simpler the better, but just about all the crafter and trader types I know say shops and player to player as well or instead; so I will vote for that as your guilds crafters are the experts in these matters.
    I think bdo has one the better trade systems, because games like ulitma online people just can't handle not cheating, and others use it as a way to exploit people to make money. Vs bdo where u can't trade directly, so it kills all that 3rd party gold sales. The guy above you used ulitma online, that dumpster hole of filth has so many gold sellers it is disturbing. 

    Bdo is like that not because of time consuming lol, I dono where you got that from. It is because it stops real money 3rd party junkies.
    As I say this is not my area, I see your point, I guess no player to player also helps with gold sellers. BDO involves farming, transporting your goods and crafting them, that's way too complex for me. My simple tastes extend only to exploring, roleplaying, questing and mashing PvP opponents. :)

    25 Agrees

    You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

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  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,387
    edited September 2020
    Lonesols said:
    Scot said:
    Like every other MMORPG system, how to trade has no perfect solution. It is not just player preference but how well it actually works, which depends on the game. A game like BDO demands a far better trading system than DAOC did for example.

    I am not a fan of the sort of depth of trading seen in BDO but if the MMO is like that an auction house is a must. It is simply a matter of taking too much time any other way. But there my own bias is creeping in, I thought the whole trading process in BDO took far to much time, perhaps for "trader players" taking longer with shops and player to player would be fine?

    I have never really taken up crafting, only ever acted as a quartermaster to guilds I have been in, organising resources and the like. Indeed collecting resources is a restful activity I can spend ages on without noticing time going by.

    Thinking about guilds has swung my vote. For me the simpler the better, but just about all the crafter and trader types I know say shops and player to player as well or instead; so I will vote for that as your guilds crafters are the experts in these matters.
    I think bdo has one the better trade systems, because games like ulitma online people just can't handle not cheating, and others use it as a way to exploit people to make money. Vs bdo where u can't trade directly, so it kills all that 3rd party gold sales. The guy above you used ulitma online, that dumpster hole of filth has so many gold sellers it is disturbing. 

    Bdo is like that not because of time consuming lol, I dono where you got that from. It is because it stops real money 3rd party junkies.
    I just did a search and found a BDO gold seller at the top of the list. 
    Selling coin, and accounts, and I didn't waste any more time on it. 

    ALL of these MMO's have RMT up the yin-yang. 
    GdemamiScot

    Once upon a time....

  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 5,563
    AlBQuirky said:
    Player owned shops (houses) with player owned vendors is also a good one. You could often meet the player owner and work out deals, even long running "contracts." 


    I've been wondering about this. Isn't this just a player shop instead of an NPC one? Is there face to face here? Conversations? I can see it when the "shop owner" is online and in their shop, but otherwise isn't it just like an NPC shop.

    I'm having trouble thinking about players that stay in their store for 100% of their time online, but I could very well be wrong :)
    EQ had player stalls for vendors.

    in a game called DragonRealms, they had player shops, where the player set out their made wares and linked a price to them, while the player had to be logged in to keep the shop active, they could be AFK (Think horse riding in Black Desert).

    However in Dragonrealms shop keepers were often NOT the crafters, this was because only a Trader Class could own and operate a Shop, yet, Rangers were inherently the best bow makers and tanners, Barbarians were the best melee weapon makers, Paladins were the best Armor Makers, only a Thief could make a lockpick or a lock, etc.

    So these people would sell their goods to a trader, who would put it up in their shop for anyone else to sell. Obviously those with the deals with the best tradespeople could ask the best prices, etc.
    AlBQuirkyAmaranthar
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,707
    Ungood said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Player owned shops (houses) with player owned vendors is also a good one. You could often meet the player owner and work out deals, even long running "contracts." 


    I've been wondering about this. Isn't this just a player shop instead of an NPC one? Is there face to face here? Conversations? I can see it when the "shop owner" is online and in their shop, but otherwise isn't it just like an NPC shop.

    I'm having trouble thinking about players that stay in their store for 100% of their time online, but I could very well be wrong :)
    EQ had player stalls for vendors.

    in a game called DragonRealms, they had player shops, where the player set out their made wares and linked a price to them, while the player had to be logged in to keep the shop active, they could be AFK (Think horse riding in Black Desert).

    However in Dragonrealms shop keepers were often NOT the crafters, this was because only a Trader Class could own and operate a Shop, yet, Rangers were inherently the best bow makers and tanners, Barbarians were the best melee weapon makers, Paladins were the best Armor Makers, only a Thief could make a lockpick or a lock, etc.

    So these people would sell their goods to a trader, who would put it up in their shop for anyone else to sell. Obviously those with the deals with the best tradespeople could ask the best prices, etc.

    EQ actually had players standing about in the East Commonlands tunnel, not stalls, until Luclin(?) came out. That is true "face to face" to me. You walk/run up to a player and ask what they have.

    When the Bazaar (Luclin expansion, I'm thiking) came into being, then it was just another NPC shop with a player model instead of an NPC. No face to face, no conversation. Just click and buy, like NPC vendors :)

    Both you and Amaranthar have shown me good hybrids :)
    AmarantharScotCatibrie

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 8,202
    Kyleran said:
    I loathe person to person trading when haggling is involved. I ask how much, they reply *make offer" and I just walk away.

    Regional or local specific auction houses are my preference, and make people travel there to pick up their stuff just like EVE does.



    Right no matter what the offer is they are insulted, and you know there is no way there is going to be a deal.
    AlBQuirky
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
    edited September 2020
    In real life negotiations, you nearly always want the other party to make the first ask/offer. That is normal. Of course, they may not be willing.

    And when they make their move, it is also normal to react as if their ask/offer is unreasonable. Not rude, just a reaction. Like "wow that's pretty low. I have turned down better offers."

    What is not normal in real negotiations is to call the other party an f'ing noob, storm off and ignore them forever. 


    AlBQuirky

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

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