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Face to face trading vs. Auction House

AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
edited September 2020 in The Pub at MMORPG.COM
I first experienced in person trading in EQ and mostly did not like it. Too many people would get mad at an offer, call you names, and put you on ignore. Maybe I just sucked at trading lol.  But sometimes it was enjoyable. It definitely felt more like a community, dealing face to face.

In SWG, I loved in person negotiation - especially  player shops. The craftsmen had reputations to uphold, and tended to treat you fairly. Plus they were often skilled players you could chat with and learn from.

Since then it has been mostly auction house trading. That is my personal preference. Item goes in. People buy or not, bid or not. I like the simplicity of the system. What I don't like is  people buying all of something and then price gouging. 

Which do you prefer? 

EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

AmarantharAlBQuirky
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Comments

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 29,603
    I liked both. Lineage 2 had player shops which I thought were great. Then of you were looking for a long time someone might contact you and ask what you wanted. If they had it you could haggle and get what you want/need.

    Auction houses are easy but I prefer the L2 way.

    AlBQuirkyiixviiiix
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,387
    I like player to player the best. You get to know people and built relationships with trust. 
    Trust is very hard to come by without personal interaction. 

    Player owned shops (houses) with player owned vendors is also a good one. You could often meet the player owner and work out deals, even long running "contracts." 
    This seems like the best for a game, to me, due to the time factor. It's a very good system. 
    Players know the names of who supplies what, where their shop is, and when they restock. If you meet that player, it's common that players tell them they shop there and thank them. They'll almost always ask you for your opinion and if there's anything they can do better. It's very "real." 

    I hate auction houses built into games. They lack contact of any kind. They are cold and dead feeling. 
    While I love player run auctions, in games that don't code them in, for their specialness.  


    AlBQuirky

    Once upon a time....

  • BrainyBrainy Member RarePosts: 581
    I have mixed feeling between player vendors and auction house, I dont like person to person at all.

    I remember back in UO where sometimes you can search the player shops and scoop up a good deal because someone would put a junk bag together cheap with alot of items, but in there could be something good. As a seller, you could make a name for yourself by organizing items in reagent bags or potion bags where you could mark up the item some because you saved people time.  So in that system being a vendor could be fun.
    I think instant travel to vendor spots made UO system good.

    However, with other games I felt player vendors just became really tedious running around everywhere trying to find stuff.   So in todays MMO's I prefer Auction house as a buyer.
    But the Auction house as a seller, it becomes just lowest price period.  No crafter can really add value to an item, lowest price wins.  So merchant in todays MMO's is boring with Auction house.

    TLDR I am undecided.

    AlBQuirky
  • VrikaVrika Member EpicPosts: 6,797
    Auction house.

    I don't play MMOs so that I could spend hours trading. Imho the system needs to be fast so that I can do my trading quickly.
    tzervoAlBQuirky
     
  • cameltosiscameltosis Member EpicPosts: 2,913
    Amathe said:
    I first experienced in person trading in EQ and mostly did not like it. Too many people would get mad at an offer, call you names, and put you on ignore. Maybe I just sucked at trading lol.  But sometimes it was enjoyable. It definitely felt more like a community, dealing face to face.

    In SWG, I loved in person negotiation - especially  player shops. The craftsmen had reputations to uphold, and tended to treat you fairly. Plus they were often skilled players you could chat with and learn from.

    Since then it has been mostly auction house trading. That is my personal preference. Item goes in. People buy or not, bid or not. I like the simplicity of the system. What I don't like is  people buying all of something and then price gouging. 

    Which do you prefer? 


    Player Shops - this is all about the seller and providing a great experience for them, fulfilling any sort of business-owner fantasies.


    Auction Houses - this is all about the buyer, providing the easiest route to items and the quickest way to buy them.


    Player to Player - I'll be honest, I haven't ever played a game that only had this, I can only imagine that this would be a really bad design. It's inconvenient for both buyer and seller.



    To get a bit more technical, I believe this is all about whether the economy is "information complete" or not. In an economy where the buyers have the complete information, it makes hunting down the "best" deal really easy and so you'll buy the best.

    In an economy where the buyers do not have complete information, they have to hunt around for the best deals. This takes time and energy and most buyers won't be thorough. They'll search a couple of shops, then buy from the one they like best. It's unlikely that they'll travel particular far searching for the best deal as the cost (time, energy, petrol) isn't worth the minor savings they might find.



    An information-complete economy is good for buyers, but from the sellers point of view it's really tough. It favours large corporations who can benefit from economies of scale and large marketing budgets. They can price out the competition in most areas, leaving only niche markets still viable for smaller businesses.

    This is exactly what has happened to most societies since the spread of the internet.

    The internet has given us access to large amounts of information and requires little effort to access that information: you can do it from home. Searching for a good deal no longer means driving into town and walking from shop to shop. So, the larger businesses are getting larger, as they can offer us better deals. Local shops are disappearing from our high street, as they simply cannot compete on price with the likes of Amazon.



    So, my preferences:


    If the game is designed around a proper player economy, based on crafted items and not looted items, then I prefer player shops and no auction house. If you've made the crafting experience important, then it makes sense to make the selling experience important too.


    If the game is designed around loot, like nearly every mmo out there today, then I prefer an auction house. If the crafting is only going to be a minor side activity, then may as well keep things simple with an auction house. I don't want to waste my time travelling to player shops just to buy some potions or to twink an alt.



    GdemamiAmatheAlBQuirky
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,322
    So, my preferences:


    If the game is designed around a proper player economy, based on crafted items and not looted items, then I prefer player shops and no auction house. If you've made the crafting experience important, then it makes sense to make the selling experience important too.


    If the game is designed around loot, like nearly every mmo out there today, then I prefer an auction house. If the crafting is only going to be a minor side activity, then may as well keep things simple with an auction house. I don't want to waste my time travelling to player shops just to buy some potions or to twink an alt. 
    ...while common sense dictates the opposite.
    cameltosis
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 18,805
    I typically prefer whatever supports immersion,that realistic feel but sometimes in gaming you just have to aim for convenience.So i prefer the auction house and yes i played both at pretty much the same time.
    Early days when SRO was very popular over 15+ servers tons of player stalls i got to see it in full swing.What i found was a pain in the ass looking for a specific item.This is  where gaming cannot pull off immersion anyhow because in real life you can easily see if someone is selling tomatoes or corn or meats there isn't this need to search every single stall.

    Yes players will tend to put up a title you can see saying what they are selling but when you gets tons of stalls all crammed together the screen is just littered with titles and makes the game look bad.

    On a more serious note i think removing player to player trading altogether would solve rmt issues.Only players on the same account could trade otherwise everything had to go through the auction house.
    AmatheCryomatrixAlBQuirky

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
    Oh and who could forget? Dumpster diving!

    In EQ  people sold things to NPC merchants to lighten their load. Mostly junk. But sometimes it wasn't junk! Sometimes someone just didn't know the value of what they had, or didn't care. 

    I picked up quite a few very valuable items just glancing at what NPC merchants had in inventory from player sales.
    tzervoTheocritusMendelKyleranAmarantharAlBQuirky

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • CrystallineNMCrystallineNM Member UncommonPosts: 45
    Star Wars Galaxies had the best option. A small AH for quick items and player shops for everything else, you could contact shop owners if you wanted to negotiate and there was something immeasurably satisfying about decorating your shop and making it perfect. My Droid workshop was (in my mind) an immaculate imitation of something you might really find in Star Wars.
    AmatheAlBQuirkymklinic
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 8,202
    Auction house or something similar any day...ALmost every game I played that allowed person to person trading also involved scams and ripoffs.
    MendelAmatheAlBQuirky
  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 4,406
    Amathe said:
    Oh and who could forget? Dumpster diving!

    In EQ  people sold things to NPC merchants to lighten their load. Mostly junk. But sometimes it wasn't junk! Sometimes someone just didn't know the value of what they had, or didn't care. 

    I picked up quite a few very valuable items just glancing at what NPC merchants had in inventory from player sales.

    That was *the* way to collect skunk glands. :)



    AmatheAlBQuirky

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 4,406
    Auction house or something similar any day...ALmost every game I played that allowed person to person trading also involved scams and ripoffs.

    Person to person also had the disadvantage of requiring both players to be online at the same time.  I can't always be available when a person 5 time-zones away has an item I want.

    A UI has the ability to reduce or remove any scams, plus it can be audited (if implemented correctly).  P2P trading also requires more GM interaction to 'officiate' these exchanges.



    AmatheKyleranAlBQuirky

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 37,540
    I loathe person to person trading when haggling is involved. I ask how much, they reply *make offer" and I just walk away.

    Regional or local specific auction houses are my preference, and make people travel there to pick up their stuff just like EVE does.


    AmatheUngoodtzervoAlBQuirky

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

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  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,387
    Brainy said:
    I have mixed feeling between player vendors and auction house, I dont like person to person at all.

    I remember back in UO where sometimes you can search the player shops and scoop up a good deal because someone would put a junk bag together cheap with alot of items, but in there could be something good. As a seller, you could make a name for yourself by organizing items in reagent bags or potion bags where you could mark up the item some because you saved people time.  So in that system being a vendor could be fun.
    I think instant travel to vendor spots made UO system good.

    However, with other games I felt player vendors just became really tedious running around everywhere trying to find stuff.   So in todays MMO's I prefer Auction house as a buyer.
    But the Auction house as a seller, it becomes just lowest price period.  No crafter can really add value to an item, lowest price wins.  So merchant in todays MMO's is boring with Auction house.

    TLDR I am undecided.

    "I think instant travel to vendor spots made UO system good." 

    I loved UO's fast travel systems. 
    The Moongates to travel between the large cities.
    The Runestones that you could "mark" (spell, or scroll for non-mages) at anywhere that you got to, and return at any time via either Gate or Recall spells. 

    I agree that's an important aspect to player owned shops at their houses. 
    Excellent point. 
    AmatheAlBQuirky

    Once upon a time....

  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 6,465
    I like player shops as a concept for other people. I don't actually want to stand around for hours selling though.
    KyleranAmathetzervoAlBQuirkycheyane

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,387
    edited September 2020
    kitarad said:
    I like player shops as a concept for other people. I don't actually want to stand around for hours selling though.
    Player shops usually have NPC vendors that you put your stuff on and put a price tag on. 
    Shoppers can pay that price or go "down the street" for a better price. 
    It promotes a sense of business, and serious shop owners would often check the competition to make sure their prices are in line. 

    Serious shop owners also would often spend time at their shops to talk to buyers to see what they can do better, if there's a market for something they don't have, etc. 
    Sometimes they'd set up "contracts" with players for supply of common goods, like herbs or ores. Most of them had their own production characters with what they specialized in. 

    It's a much better game for economic play. And much more interesting for players who want more player interaction and interesting worldly content. 

    I imagine it sucks for players who want to be and do everything all on their own, requiring the ease of "instant gratification" in this aspect of an MMORPG. 

    But man oh man, I sure miss this sort of game, like in UO, where things felt alive
    I'd love to see this expanded into more of a street fair like atmosphere, alive and fun. There are things a game can do to accomplish that, in my opinion. 

    Unfortunately, that would put the "burden" of added game play on the Players. 
    GdemamiAmatheAlBQuirky

    Once upon a time....

  • CrystallineNMCrystallineNM Member UncommonPosts: 45
    Kyleran said:
    I loathe person to person trading when haggling is involved. I ask how much, they reply *make offer" and I just walk away.


    Oh this absolutely. If you're selling something in trade but tell anyone who inquires to "make offer" you can go straight to Hell.
    kitaradAmatheUngoodKyleranAlBQuirky
  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Member EpicPosts: 3,141
    The answer is both of course or like SWG.

    In project entropia, auction house takes a small fee to put items on, whereas there are trade channels and shops too.

    Also there are people who only trade and it is bwst way to guarantee profiting from the game.
    AlBQuirky
    Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix
    You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations. 
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 5,563
    Personally, I Hated the Player Trading in EQ1, just all kinds of douche moves by people. Like after they agree on a price they put in less and tell you to accept it, and when you tell them No, they get upset by it. Screw them! Or they would say they were selling an item for a price, so you send them a tell saying you will buy it, and they say "I have an offer for X amount, do I hear more", I often sent a follow up tell saying :never mind: and blocked them.

    Just overall, too many douchebags made that whole system suck, so much so that even when I play games that have player to play sales, I don't bother to use them. 

    Auction House, I think is also a scam where they take a % of the money and demand a listing fee. Like what the hell? But still a better option than person to person trading, because I don't need to deal with jerks when it comes to buying and selling on the Auction House.

    Just my feelings on it.
    KyleranAmatheGdemamiAlBQuirky
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,387
    edited September 2020
    Kyleran said:
    I loathe person to person trading when haggling is involved. I ask how much, they reply *make offer" and I just walk away.


    Oh this absolutely. If you're selling something in trade but tell anyone who inquires to "make offer" you can go straight to Hell.
    You get mad about it? No reason for that. 
    I always just walked away. Mainly because I didn't have a clue what the value was for the items, in many cases. But I was aware that the seller was not going to sell for a reasonable price by that action. Or maybe they didn't have a clue to it's value either. 
    C'est la vie. 

    Once upon a time....

  • MykellMykell Member UncommonPosts: 775
    A system with both of course. An AH that everyone can use but a crafting system that has the name of the crafter on the items he makes, so if you want to seek out a high level crafter and try and do a deal with them you can. Multiple options are always the best.
    tzervoAmatheAlBQuirky
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,387
    Mykell said:
    A system with both of course. An AH that everyone can use but a crafting system that has the name of the crafter on the items he makes, so if you want to seek out a high level crafter and try and do a deal with them you can. Multiple options are always the best.
    What I'm afraid of happening there is that the information is too readily available, on who those high level crafters are. Once that's in, then the top merchandisers will be taking advantage of it and a form of monopoly arises. That locks out everyone else. 
    Sometimes, perfection isn't perfect for all, only those who control it. 

    I think the design needs to leave some wildness in it so that doesn't happen. 

    You're going to have some of that no matter what.
    Without a public auction house, however, only player shops with vendors, it's possible for some skilled Crafts players to go unnoticed due to being out of the way, and known only to fewer players. They may not be interested in constantly maintaining a shop, but willing to produce on demand for those who know them. 
    Some form of notification, like a bulletin board on their house/shop, would be beneficial for that sort of player, too. Or maybe a "mail" system built into the game. 
    "Send them a pigeon." 


    GdemamiAmatheAlBQuirky

    Once upon a time....

  • MykellMykell Member UncommonPosts: 775
    Mykell said:
    A system with both of course. An AH that everyone can use but a crafting system that has the name of the crafter on the items he makes, so if you want to seek out a high level crafter and try and do a deal with them you can. Multiple options are always the best.
    What I'm afraid of happening there is that the information is too readily available, on who those high level crafters are. Once that's in, then the top merchandisers will be taking advantage of it and a form of monopoly arises. That locks out everyone else. 
    Sometimes, perfection isn't perfect for all, only those who control it. 

    I think the design needs to leave some wildness in it so that doesn't happen. 

    You're going to have some of that no matter what.
    Without a public auction house, however, only player shops with vendors, it's possible for some skilled Crafts players to go unnoticed due to being out of the way, and known only to fewer players. They may not be interested in constantly maintaining a shop, but willing to produce on demand for those who know them. 
    Some form of notification, like a bulletin board on their house/shop, would be beneficial for that sort of player, too. Or maybe a "mail" system built into the game. 
    "Send them a pigeon." 



    Well back in EQ2 there a couple high level sages who made mostly everything. So i created my own, leveled up and started undercutting them which was pretty easy as they were charging over cost by a heck of a lot.

    Did they try and compete with me..no they contacted me and said they had an arraignment that they controlled different parts of the market and would i be interested in joining them.  I said no i'm here to keep you guys honest and i just did my own thing and forced them to lower their prices.

    You worry about crafters controlling the market but anyone who gets rich enough can control a segment of it with a global AH. If you understand the crafting systems and what is needed for high tier equipment you can just buy it all up and resell it slowly over time at inflated prices. I know cause i've done it myself in plenty of mmo's.


    AmarantharAlBQuirky
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,387
    Mykell said:
    Mykell said:
    A system with both of course. An AH that everyone can use but a crafting system that has the name of the crafter on the items he makes, so if you want to seek out a high level crafter and try and do a deal with them you can. Multiple options are always the best.
    What I'm afraid of happening there is that the information is too readily available, on who those high level crafters are. Once that's in, then the top merchandisers will be taking advantage of it and a form of monopoly arises. That locks out everyone else. 
    Sometimes, perfection isn't perfect for all, only those who control it. 

    I think the design needs to leave some wildness in it so that doesn't happen. 

    You're going to have some of that no matter what.
    Without a public auction house, however, only player shops with vendors, it's possible for some skilled Crafts players to go unnoticed due to being out of the way, and known only to fewer players. They may not be interested in constantly maintaining a shop, but willing to produce on demand for those who know them. 
    Some form of notification, like a bulletin board on their house/shop, would be beneficial for that sort of player, too. Or maybe a "mail" system built into the game. 
    "Send them a pigeon." 



    Well back in EQ2 there a couple high level sages who made mostly everything. So i created my own, leveled up and started undercutting them which was pretty easy as they were charging over cost by a heck of a lot.

    Did they try and compete with me..no they contacted me and said they had an arraignment that they controlled different parts of the market and would i be interested in joining them.  I said no i'm here to keep you guys honest and i just did my own thing and forced them to lower their prices.

    You worry about crafters controlling the market but anyone who gets rich enough can control a segment of it with a global AH. If you understand the crafting systems and what is needed for high tier equipment you can just buy it all up and resell it slowly over time at inflated prices. I know cause i've done it myself in plenty of mmo's.


    Yes. Really, in any system some players will try to buy everything of importance up and control the market that way. 
    Even in UO there was some of that going on around the big trade centers (around cities). 

    Myself, I took advantage of that with my popular black and white dyes that I made the runs for seeds, grew the plants in my conservatory, and produced the dyes. It was a way to make some good coin, even at slightly marked down prices. (My house was on a seldom visited island. A beautiful villa in a very quiet part of the world.) 
    I intentionally kept it quiet, I only wanted a small customer base, so after dropping runes marked for my place and getting it going, I stopped "advertising." I spent most of my time exploring and working on the deeper mysteries of the world. 
    https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/487824/the-greatest-quest-artifact-to-ever-exist-in-mmorpgs#latest

    That's a big negative for AH's, but much harder to do in a world full of shops all spread out. That's one reason why I think the player house shops is the best way to go. 
    GdemamiAlBQuirky

    Once upon a time....

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,707
    Amathe said:
    I first experienced in person trading in EQ and mostly did not like it. Too many people would get mad at an offer, call you names, and put you on ignore. Maybe I just sucked at trading lol.  But sometimes it was enjoyable. It definitely felt more like a community, dealing face to face.

    In SWG, I loved in person negotiation - especially  player shops. The craftsmen had reputations to uphold, and tended to treat you fairly. Plus they were often skilled players you could chat with and learn from.

    Since then it has been mostly auction house trading. That is my personal preference. Item goes in. People buy or not, bid or not. I like the simplicity of the system. What I don't like is  people buying all of something and then price gouging. 

    Which do you prefer? 

    Both have their merits, like you pointed out. I prefer Auction Houses as I am not a "bargainer" in sense of the word. I'm horrible at it :)

    But a lot of people enjoy haggling. It is a game within a game for them. The face to face of old EQ did help people talk to each other, though. That helps community building.
    tzervoCatibrie

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


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