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So is New World a real MMORPG?

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  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 29,602
    Lonesols said:

     You are just being delusional and hypocritical saying that they aren't all deranged. 
    The thing is, pve is also a "hive of scum and villainy" but because it's not directly against other players, most people don't notice.

    I'm not going to say pvp games are mostly good people with a few people with serious issues, but I wouldn't go so far as to say "most."

    Same with pve, I've run across some real a## holes in pve games. I could very well say "most pve players are etc, etc" but I wouldn't do that.

    pve players cheat as well. And try to mess with other players, cheat other players.

    Bad people are bad people. Luckily you can avoid a good many in a pve game but they are there and they will cause you issues if they can.
    [Deleted User]AlBQuirkyTimukastzervo
  • kjempffkjempff Member RarePosts: 1,683
    Well first thing to ask yourself is do you like pvp and are you going to participate in it ? If the answer is no, then New World (as any other pvp mmo) is already only half the game or less - Because that is where half the focus of the developers goes for pvp mmos. So as with all pvp mmos, if you are a pve player, is playing as a "lesser citicen" with the systems and content there are for pve play, enjoyable enough for you ? For some it will be fine, for others it will not be.

    New World started out as a pvp mmo, then it had an identity crysis flirting with pve systems (and had a bunch of pve players all excited), but then going back to its pvp roots after a shitstorm from the pvp community.
    From the combat in particular (which I would describe as shallow action fombat, aka zerg combat with minimal tactics and roles..others love this type of combat), the game would be best suited as a pvp game, so I assume that is the direction it will go.

    But it is a mmo, like mmos are today.
    A role playing game, as in a playing a role ? Not very much in combat, but maybe as a crafter (time will tell).
  • tzervotzervo Member EpicPosts: 1,061
    "You’ll probably be murdered in New World. So, yes, players will be able to freely kill other players"

    Does this really appeal to anyone other than the most demented of people?
    It appeals to everyone that finds PVE and AI too predictable and boring :)
    bcbullyIselin[Deleted User]
  • tzervotzervo Member EpicPosts: 1,061
    edited September 2020
    Lonesols said:
    Doesn't really appeal to many, I have never seen a full loot pvp mmorpg be successful ever. The closest was eve, but even that pales in comparison to wow, eso, and even lower end games like swtor. 
    Albion recently reported 350000 MAU. EVE has been running since 2003.
    A good example of how bad forced pvp is in a mmo, see elite and dangerous. That prompted a group to make a pve only private group, the pc version has 6000 plus members. So out of say 10000 people that play elite id guess 90 percent either play the pve or offline.
    E:D has little OW PVP because there is no point to it, unlike EVE or Albion.
    To see it even clearer take a look at games with a hard-core mode, doesn't even need to be pvp. Just meaning if you die you have to start over. Barely any one plays the hard core modes.
    People are so adverse to losing what they earned, that games like everquest removed corpse runs cause people thought it was to hard lol.

    Being loss-averse is not the same as being PVP-averse. There are players that are in favor of PVE games with loss on death that will not touch PVP games and players that play on GW2 WvW all day but will not touch full loot PVP games.

     I also wouldn't classify eve online as a forced pvp game, you can avoid pvp in that game if you wish. 
    Erm, no, factually incorrect, unless you don't leave the station ever. Even in high sec someone can kill you (and it often happens if you have a juicy cargo) if they can before Concord police get them.
    If your idea was true then in all those games the majority would be running anti pk guilds to hunt down demented people, that never happens ever at all no where. 

    There is little point for this anymore. People that do not want PK will play a PVE game. The rest don't mind PK, they enjoy it as part of the game. Anti PK groups only exist for fun or as a reason to find fights. As for "never", there was an anti PK alliance active last time I played Albion.

    Post edited by tzervo on
    [Deleted User]
  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 10,313
    kjempff said:
    Well first thing to ask yourself is do you like pvp and are you going to participate in it ? If the answer is no, then New World (as any other pvp mmo) is already only half the game or less - Because that is where half the focus of the developers goes for pvp mmos. So as with all pvp mmos, if you are a pve player, is playing as a "lesser citicen" with the systems and content there are for pve play, enjoyable enough for you ? For some it will be fine, for others it will not be.

    New World started out as a pvp mmo, then it had an identity crysis flirting with pve systems (and had a bunch of pve players all excited), but then going back to its pvp roots after a shitstorm from the pvp community.
    From the combat in particular (which I would describe as shallow action fombat, aka zerg combat with minimal tactics and roles..others love this type of combat), the game would be best suited as a pvp game, so I assume that is the direction it will go.

    But it is a mmo, like mmos are today.
    A role playing game, as in a playing a role ? Not very much in combat, but maybe as a crafter (time will tell).
    Please do not call NW a PvP mmorpg. There has been no change from there reversal of course which made it a PvE game. 

    PvP is completely avoidable and less than 1% of your time can be played doing it.
    tzervoDibdabs[Deleted User]
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 15,455
    bcbully said:
    kjempff said:
    Well first thing to ask yourself is do you like pvp and are you going to participate in it ? If the answer is no, then New World (as any other pvp mmo) is already only half the game or less - Because that is where half the focus of the developers goes for pvp mmos. So as with all pvp mmos, if you are a pve player, is playing as a "lesser citicen" with the systems and content there are for pve play, enjoyable enough for you ? For some it will be fine, for others it will not be.

    New World started out as a pvp mmo, then it had an identity crysis flirting with pve systems (and had a bunch of pve players all excited), but then going back to its pvp roots after a shitstorm from the pvp community.
    From the combat in particular (which I would describe as shallow action fombat, aka zerg combat with minimal tactics and roles..others love this type of combat), the game would be best suited as a pvp game, so I assume that is the direction it will go.

    But it is a mmo, like mmos are today.
    A role playing game, as in a playing a role ? Not very much in combat, but maybe as a crafter (time will tell).
    Please do not call NW a PvP mmorpg. There has been no change from there reversal of course which made it a PvE game. 

    PvP is completely avoidable and less than 1% of your time can be played doing it.
    Yeah it was very telling during the 2-week preview that even those flagged for PvP were only doing it to get the faster advancement that the PvP-flagged missions gave you and for the most part avoided fighting others unless someone accidentally hit someone else in crowded PvE spots lol.


    bcbully
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
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    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • DibdabsDibdabs Member RarePosts: 2,972
    bcbully said:
    PvP is completely avoidable and less than 1% of your time can be played doing it.
    Pretty much the same in Eve Online.  You don't need to PvP at all as long as you are content to play in high sec systems.
  • tzervotzervo Member EpicPosts: 1,061
    edited September 2020
    Dibdabs said:
    Pretty much the same in Eve Online.  You don't need to PvP at all as long as you are content to play in high sec systems.
    You still get ganked in EVE online even in high sec, just with a lower frequency or if your cargo is super juicy, unless you do not undock at all. From what I understood in New World you cannot even be touched unless you flag up or go to places with the new direction of development.
  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 10,313
    Dibdabs said:
    bcbully said:
    PvP is completely avoidable and less than 1% of your time can be played doing it.
    Pretty much the same in Eve Online.  You don't need to PvP at all as long as you are content to play in high sec systems.
     You just compared NW pvp to EVE?

    EVE the very definition of MEANINGFUL PvP?

    Please enlighten this experienced group of mmorpg players on what we have not seen or understood.
  • olepiolepi Member RarePosts: 1,557
    MMORPG's used to be based on RPG games, where you took on a specific role and build to see how it played in the world. You could be a wizard, fighter, druid, healer, minstrel, etc. Each one had radically different abilities and none of them could do everything.

    In DAOC, for example, it takes an entire team to cover all the skills necessary. One player can mezz, one can fight, one can cast spells, one can heal, etc. None of them can do all of those very well. And in PvP, each side has different character types.

    Nowadays, though, MMORPG's have been dumbed down to the point that every character can do everything. In ESO, for example, there are only 4 classes, and each one can do almost everything the others can. So there is little differentiation. And each side has the exact same character types.

    As for PvP, forced PvP has never been a successful market. PvP only really works if it is optional, and there is a reason for it. Put the most valuable mats in a PvP zone, for example. Open world PvP ends up with gankers stationed at the respawn points, killing any player over and over who tries to respawn.
    kjempffbcbully

    ------------
    2020: 43 years on the Net.


  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 29,602
    tzervo said:
    Dibdabs said:
    Pretty much the same in Eve Online.  You don't need to PvP at all as long as you are content to play in high sec systems.
    You still get ganked in EVE online even in high sec, just with a lower frequency or if your cargo is super juicy, unless you do not undock at all. From what I understood in New World you cannot even be touched unless you flag up or go to places with the new direction of development.
    Yeah, I remember trying EVE, was extremely low level and was mining and I was killed twice. No idea how. I remember thinking, I'm level 4 or some such thing in the most starter of areas, how am I being killed?

    I'm assuming it must have been some loophole with mining or me getting what I mined or "something."
  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 7,496
    idk about calling Albion Online a successful 'pvp' mmorpg for 2 main reasons: the population didn't see an uptick until it went f2p and 2) there's many areas where you can not engage in pvp at all which gradually change with each zone type (from casual no loot drop on death to full loot). I will concede that their take on pvp was a pretty balanced way to go about things though in the end, it just would've been a much more successful game if it had converted to f2p when it first saw that huge decline instead of waiting months/years to do so.
  • tzervotzervo Member EpicPosts: 1,061
    edited September 2020
    Albatroes said:
    idk about calling Albion Online a successful 'pvp' mmorpg for 2 main reasons: the population didn't see an uptick until it went f2p and 2) there's many areas where you can not engage in pvp at all which gradually change with each zone type (from casual no loot drop on death to full loot). I will concede that their take on pvp was a pretty balanced way to go about things though in the end, it just would've been a much more successful game if it had converted to f2p when it first saw that huge decline instead of waiting months/years to do so.
    Albion saw a huge uptick in population when going f2p. From 140k MAU at launch they went down to around 15k in 2017-2018 and increased a lot after Queen and the f2p transition up to more than 350k MAU:

    https://massivelyop.com/2020/02/11/albion-online-now-counts-350k-monthly-active-players-plans-major-alliance-changes/

    You could argue that a considerable number of these "users" are alt or throwaway accounts but the activity has increased considerably regardless. You can also see it in the player numbers in the cities, in the plots in cities other than Caerleon that are no longer vacant etc.

    The gradual introduction in PVP (blue/yellow zones) serves mostly as a learning curve. Unlike EVE high sec, Albion is mostly about the action in the red and black zones.

    But between blue/yellow zones, HCE and economy/crafting, the game does provide content to the player that does not want to dabble in PVP.
    Post edited by tzervo on
  • tzervotzervo Member EpicPosts: 1,061
    edited September 2020
    Sovrath said:
    Yeah, I remember trying EVE, was extremely low level and was mining and I was killed twice. No idea how. I remember thinking, I'm level 4 or some such thing in the most starter of areas, how am I being killed?

    I'm assuming it must have been some loophole with mining or me getting what I mined or "something."
    Some people suicide gank miners in high sec - as in, they gank you and then get killed by Concord, EVE's version of the police. They go especially after AFK miners. If you were just starting you were probably going in with a Venture and these are paper thin and easy to kill with a cheapo throwaway destroyer. The idea would be to switch systems when you know that a suicide ganker is there. So you could have at least avoided the second death.

    Consider "deaths" part of the operational cost, you still make a profit. :)
    Sovrath
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,707
    remsleep said:
    "You’ll probably be murdered in New World. So, yes, players will be able to freely kill other players"

    Does this really appeal to anyone other than the most demented of people?

    Appeals to guild PvP players a lot.

    Doesn't appeal to solo PvE players which you probably are.

    Just because someone likes a different playstyle it doesn't make them demented.

    Maybe one day we won't be so quick to dismiss others solely based on a different game preference 

    Yes just because someone like open world PvP games, doesn't mean they are going around kicking kittens and setting puppies on fire

    But they do find it fun, which I can't imagine. People who find being evil to other human beings, even in a "make believe" setting, are not good people I want to hang out with.
    GdemamibcbullyCatibrie

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,707
    remsleep said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    remsleep said:
    "You’ll probably be murdered in New World. So, yes, players will be able to freely kill other players"

    Does this really appeal to anyone other than the most demented of people?

    Appeals to guild PvP players a lot.

    Doesn't appeal to solo PvE players which you probably are.

    Just because someone likes a different playstyle it doesn't make them demented.

    Maybe one day we won't be so quick to dismiss others solely based on a different game preference 

    Yes just because someone like open world PvP games, doesn't mean they are going around kicking kittens and setting puppies on fire

    But they do find it fun, which I can't imagine. People who find being evil to other human beings, even in a "make believe" setting, are not good people I want to hang out with.

    That is totally fine if you choose to do that.

    But make no mistake - the correlation between video games and RL is nowhere near direct as you would think.

    Human personalities are pretty complex and what makes people good IRL vs what makes them good in games are very different settings with very different motives and very different consequences 



    I know many people say the same thing. My point is this: They find it FUN. Even in an imaginary setting, they are having FUN being evil.

    I tried it in SW; KotOR 1 once. In order to see what the "evil" game end jedi robes were like, I had Zalbar kill Mission on the last planet. Immediately after doing so, I shut the game down and deleted that save file. I could not play it again for a week or so, I felt so terrible. I never found out what the "evil robes" were like until many years later when info on the Internet exploded.

    That is my point. Some people ENJOY being evil.
    GdemamibcbullyCatibrie

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,322
    AlBQuirky said:
    I know many people say the same thing. My point is this: They find it FUN. Even in an imaginary setting, they are having FUN being evil.

    The problem with your toothless argument is:

    1) you failed to provide any evidence that what they do is evil
    2) you failed to provide any evidence that they are having fun being evil
    3) you failed to provide any evidence that there is any relevant amount of such players to even matter
    tzervobcbullyChildoftheShadows
  • tzervotzervo Member EpicPosts: 1,061
    edited September 2020
    PVE players that characterize PVPers as evil, psychopaths, etc. start with the wrong premise:

    - I do not like to be attacked and killed.
    - Therefore anyone attacking me is evil because they want to make me feel miserable.
    - Therefore everyone playing PVP games is evil because they want to make others feel miserable.

    Whereas the correct premise is:

    - I play a PVP game so I expect (and actually am counting on) players to attack me, or me to attack them.
    - That's what both of us find fun and that's the point of the game. I am not doing another player disservice by attacking them.
    - If I did not want other players to attack me I would not have chosen this game. If other players do not want me to attack them they should not play this game.
    YashaXGdemamibcbullyAlBQuirky
  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,742
    I don't know many who characterize PvPers as such. Most actually characterize griefers as such. And I agree.
    Someone who takes enjoyment in totally ruining another player's game time in a MMORPG has something wrong in his head.

    Developers are also partially responsible for not implementing harsh enough punishments for mindless killers.
    GdemamiTheocritusYashaXAlBQuirky
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.
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  • MargraveMargrave Member RarePosts: 1,248
    I really enjoyed the last test! I thought it was great!

    Yes it still needs some more work, but what they've got so far is fun!
    YashaXAlBQuirky
  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 3,026
    No it's a survival game.  The gameplay loop is 100% survival, no matter how they try to pivot.
    GdemamibotrytisYashaX
  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,742
    No it's a survival game.  The gameplay loop is 100% survival, no matter how they try to pivot.

    Have you ever played a survival game ?
    There's no survival element in NW. You don't need to eat or drink, you don't need to find shelter and sleep.
    All key elements of survival games are absent.
    YashaXAlBQuirky
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.
    CPU: Intel Core I7 10700k (5.10ghz) - GPU: ASUS Dual GeForce RTX 2070 SUPER EVO 8GB DDR6 - RAM: 32GB Kingston HyperX Predator DDR4 3000 - Motherboard: Gigabyte Z490 Aorus Ultra - PSU: Antec TruePower New 750W - Storage: Kingston KC1000 NVMe 960gb SSD and 2x1TB WD Velociraptor HDDs (Raid 0) - Main display: Samsung U32J590 32" 4K monitor - Second display: Philips 273v 27" monitor - VR: Pimax 8K headset - Sound: Sony STR-DH550 AV Receiver HDMI linked with the GPU and the TV, with Jamo S 426 HS 3 5.0 speakers and Pioneer S-21W subwoofer - OS: Windows 10 Pro 64 bits.


  • tzervotzervo Member EpicPosts: 1,061
    I don't know many who characterize PvPers as such. Most actually characterize griefers as such. And I agree.
    You have an example in this thread:
    "You’ll probably be murdered in New World. So, yes, players will be able to freely kill other players"

    Does this really appeal to anyone other than the most demented of people?
    Plus upvoters/follow-up posts.

    PVE'ers tend to conflate PK'ers and especially gankers with griefers because the effect to them is the same: they get killed and do not want that. The difference being that a PK'er or a ganker play within the game's rules, whereas a griefer plays in a bannable fashion that is usually covered (however vaguely) by the EULA of the game.

    Anecdotally I would say that there are quite a few PVE players that consider all PKers and gankers as psychopaths and voice that opinion in forums. If you go to the MOP comment section especially, whose majority of readers and writers are PVE-biased, you will see in most PVP game news articles someone screaming "gankbox! psychopaths!" followed by many upvotes.
    bcbullyYashaX
  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,742
    There's no difference between those people you describe if (for instance) they camp newbie zones and stop people from playing the game. They are all griefers.

    Another thing that pisses of people about griefers is that they will find all kind of excuses to justify their behavior, when in reality they are just cowards and assholes.

    Basically, IF you take enjoyment in ruining other people's fun, you have a mental problem, even if you don't accept it. And if you hide behind a screen to do it, you are also a coward.
    GdemamiYashaXAlBQuirky
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.
    CPU: Intel Core I7 10700k (5.10ghz) - GPU: ASUS Dual GeForce RTX 2070 SUPER EVO 8GB DDR6 - RAM: 32GB Kingston HyperX Predator DDR4 3000 - Motherboard: Gigabyte Z490 Aorus Ultra - PSU: Antec TruePower New 750W - Storage: Kingston KC1000 NVMe 960gb SSD and 2x1TB WD Velociraptor HDDs (Raid 0) - Main display: Samsung U32J590 32" 4K monitor - Second display: Philips 273v 27" monitor - VR: Pimax 8K headset - Sound: Sony STR-DH550 AV Receiver HDMI linked with the GPU and the TV, with Jamo S 426 HS 3 5.0 speakers and Pioneer S-21W subwoofer - OS: Windows 10 Pro 64 bits.


  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 10,313
    edited September 2020
    ^^^Annnnnnnd this why I hate lying, sneaky, manipulative PvE guy. He feels he will have no repercussions to his actions.



    YashaX
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