From my understanding, this is a little different than just people saying "If you don't like it, quit". If I'm not mistaken, the bulk of the complaints seem to be coming out entry level employees doing highly sought after jobs. It's kind of par for the course with jobs like this for large corporations in large cities, except if it was the financial sector or something, you'd be an unpaid intern.
I don't really see MMO discourse and these jobs as a very apt comparison. In my opinion, people complaining about jobs like these is more comparable to playing Everquest and complaining it's not an isometric skill-based progression MMO like UO.
Believe me, I would have preferred to have kept the video store job I had when I was a teenager, but it's just wasn't economically viable, so I took a harder manual labor job to pay for school. Sometimes you outgrow the game tester job and you need to find something that pays better. Sucks, but that's life.
No, I'd rather change what IS more towards what (I think) SHOULD BE. Make the most out of any situation etc. Naturally, this puts me quite at odds with proponents of status quo, with people who are sticklers for rules(even stupid ones) etc.
Know how much I care? Hah, that's how much!
I just love people like you.. I mean it's always great to see people come into an MMO I am enjoying as it is, and they are all like.. "This is a great MMO, lets fuck it up some to make it better"
I can see both sides, really. The game you enjoy falls just a touch short of what Gorwe enjoys. It's just a minor thing or three. Why not voice their opinion, especially since I don't think anyone has found "the perfect MMORPG" that needs zero tweaking.
It is a constant back and forth, though. Nerfs happen because players bitch and moan. "New Game Experience" happens because players bitch and moan. Amazon's New World totally shifted focus because of feedback.
If a game is "close" for some players, I see no reason not to make suggestions. I also see why players who like the game "as is" may get upset about any changes.
This is totally different from pure hatred of a game and trying to change into one you like. Those 2 aspects will never meet.
PS: I missed the whole "Blizzard thing" and am glad?
I used an example.
Lets say "Mounts"
So, some players come into the game, and they are all like "We like this game" and they play the game, and then they all start going "This game needs mounts"
Personally, I have no idea what the massive fan-girl squee thing is with mounts all things said and done, most games they are nothing more than a store bought big ugly block of run speed, but.. for some reason I will never fathom, people have a pickle up their butts for mounts, and will continually want mounts, no matter what the game is.
Case in point, in DDO, for some gawd awful reason they got hit by a bunch of people that wanted mount, so after.. I think 14 years without ever having mounts in the game.. they put in horses... a Dungeon Crawl game, seriously, DDO is really a whole game of just Dungeons and Raids, and they put in fucking horses.
lo.. They put in FANCY and Fast horses in the Store, because, what everyone really wants, is you guessed it, to have to pay real money for a big ugly graphic block of Additional run speed.
This is not nuanced suggestion, this is not minor things, this is people coming into a game, playing it for a while, they obviously enjoy it, and then for some brain dead reason, just need to chant about needing some addiotnal horsehit added to the game, and they will stay around for years, fussing about needing that thing, and the best part is, they won't leave, they won't move to another game that has the thing they want, they will stay in this other game, and fuss that this game needs what the other game has, regardless of how mornic it would be, if put in this game.
Like.. horses in DDO.
Because when I think dungeon crawl.. I think riding a horse.
I mean.. I have seen worse things unfold, and I have nothing against mounts or horses, but, it's just the asininity of these kinds of demands.
I see what you're saying, but in the end, do other players having mounts ruin your game? Is that the final immersion breaker for you?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
No, I'd rather change what IS more towards what (I think) SHOULD BE. Make the most out of any situation etc. Naturally, this puts me quite at odds with proponents of status quo, with people who are sticklers for rules(even stupid ones) etc.
Know how much I care? Hah, that's how much!
I just love people like you.. I mean it's always great to see people come into an MMO I am enjoying as it is, and they are all like.. "This is a great MMO, lets fuck it up some to make it better"
I can see both sides, really. The game you enjoy falls just a touch short of what Gorwe enjoys. It's just a minor thing or three. Why not voice their opinion, especially since I don't think anyone has found "the perfect MMORPG" that needs zero tweaking.
It is a constant back and forth, though. Nerfs happen because players bitch and moan. "New Game Experience" happens because players bitch and moan. Amazon's New World totally shifted focus because of feedback.
If a game is "close" for some players, I see no reason not to make suggestions. I also see why players who like the game "as is" may get upset about any changes.
This is totally different from pure hatred of a game and trying to change into one you like. Those 2 aspects will never meet.
PS: I missed the whole "Blizzard thing" and am glad?
I used an example.
Lets say "Mounts"
So, some players come into the game, and they are all like "We like this game" and they play the game, and then they all start going "This game needs mounts"
Personally, I have no idea what the massive fan-girl squee thing is with mounts all things said and done, most games they are nothing more than a store bought big ugly block of run speed, but.. for some reason I will never fathom, people have a pickle up their butts for mounts, and will continually want mounts, no matter what the game is.
Case in point, in DDO, for some gawd awful reason they got hit by a bunch of people that wanted mount, so after.. I think 14 years without ever having mounts in the game.. they put in horses... a Dungeon Crawl game, seriously, DDO is really a whole game of just Dungeons and Raids, and they put in fucking horses.
lo.. They put in FANCY and Fast horses in the Store, because, what everyone really wants, is you guessed it, to have to pay real money for a big ugly graphic block of Additional run speed.
This is not nuanced suggestion, this is not minor things, this is people coming into a game, playing it for a while, they obviously enjoy it, and then for some brain dead reason, just need to chant about needing some addiotnal horsehit added to the game, and they will stay around for years, fussing about needing that thing, and the best part is, they won't leave, they won't move to another game that has the thing they want, they will stay in this other game, and fuss that this game needs what the other game has, regardless of how mornic it would be, if put in this game.
Like.. horses in DDO.
Because when I think dungeon crawl.. I think riding a horse.
I mean.. I have seen worse things unfold, and I have nothing against mounts or horses, but, it's just the asininity of these kinds of demands.
When I went back to DDO and saw the horses I was like WTF.
No, I'd rather change what IS more towards what (I think) SHOULD BE. Make the most out of any situation etc. Naturally, this puts me quite at odds with proponents of status quo, with people who are sticklers for rules(even stupid ones) etc.
Know how much I care? Hah, that's how much!
I just love people like you.. I mean it's always great to see people come into an MMO I am enjoying as it is, and they are all like.. "This is a great MMO, lets fuck it up some to make it better"
I can see both sides, really. The game you enjoy falls just a touch short of what Gorwe enjoys. It's just a minor thing or three. Why not voice their opinion, especially since I don't think anyone has found "the perfect MMORPG" that needs zero tweaking.
It is a constant back and forth, though. Nerfs happen because players bitch and moan. "New Game Experience" happens because players bitch and moan. Amazon's New World totally shifted focus because of feedback.
If a game is "close" for some players, I see no reason not to make suggestions. I also see why players who like the game "as is" may get upset about any changes.
This is totally different from pure hatred of a game and trying to change into one you like. Those 2 aspects will never meet.
PS: I missed the whole "Blizzard thing" and am glad?
I used an example.
Lets say "Mounts"
So, some players come into the game, and they are all like "We like this game" and they play the game, and then they all start going "This game needs mounts"
Personally, I have no idea what the massive fan-girl squee thing is with mounts all things said and done, most games they are nothing more than a store bought big ugly block of run speed, but.. for some reason I will never fathom, people have a pickle up their butts for mounts, and will continually want mounts, no matter what the game is.
Case in point, in DDO, for some gawd awful reason they got hit by a bunch of people that wanted mount, so after.. I think 14 years without ever having mounts in the game.. they put in horses... a Dungeon Crawl game, seriously, DDO is really a whole game of just Dungeons and Raids, and they put in fucking horses.
lo.. They put in FANCY and Fast horses in the Store, because, what everyone really wants, is you guessed it, to have to pay real money for a big ugly graphic block of Additional run speed.
This is not nuanced suggestion, this is not minor things, this is people coming into a game, playing it for a while, they obviously enjoy it, and then for some brain dead reason, just need to chant about needing some addiotnal horsehit added to the game, and they will stay around for years, fussing about needing that thing, and the best part is, they won't leave, they won't move to another game that has the thing they want, they will stay in this other game, and fuss that this game needs what the other game has, regardless of how mornic it would be, if put in this game.
Like.. horses in DDO.
Because when I think dungeon crawl.. I think riding a horse.
I mean.. I have seen worse things unfold, and I have nothing against mounts or horses, but, it's just the asininity of these kinds of demands.
I see what you're saying, but in the end, do other players having mounts ruin your game? Is that the final immersion breaker for you?
Well see, Yah. Because, it's never the horse itself that kills things, it's the snowball effect.
So they put horses in a dungeon crawl game, like DDO, what happens when you give these players mounts? That's right! they want some place to ride their mounts. So.. Lo and Behold.. These huge ass explorer zones get put in, that are HUGE purely so that players can ride their horses from one dungeon location to another... and if I do not have a horse, it's now just a slow, long ass slog from one dungeon to another.
It's just the whole:
If you give a mouse a cookie
Effect, because the players that push for these things will never be content, and in fact giving it to them, just excites to push for more stuff, because they believe the dev will buckle to their demands.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
As noted by other posters, learning to save is so pointless, I don't know why they cover it at schools. Spend, spend, spend should be our mantra as any sort of individual fiscal responsibility is pointless.
Likewise stay in your job, the first one you ever get. Started as a paper boy, stay with that. The idea we should ever be on the look out for a different/better job is outrageous; you get a job for life, it should fulfil all your needs until you retire on a good state pension paid for by all your work as a tea boy or whatever.
Holding my hand from cradle to grave is the least I can expect from my society, and hey I delivered your papers!
I am taking bets on how long before this thread is shut down; 2-1 today, going up to 4-1 by Monday. If you don't think life should involve any sort of risk, maybe get someone to pay the bet for you?
I'd say at least 80% of the people in the world don't really like their job. If not more.
But sadly, it's required to be able to live.
In some countries, people don't have a choice, but the problem is that in our "advanced" countries, they prefer to whine about their situation and hope for some miracle rather than pull their fingers out of their arse and work to get a better job they would enjoy.
I know that first hand. I did the move. And I will do it again, at 51, if needed, but for now I'm good thanks to my previous efforts. So if I could do it, you can too. Stop whining, find something you enjoy, life is really too short to live a bitter life, in our countries where we have still some choice left.
Quoted for truth. I was in an unsatisfying job for 8 years until one day someone walked in and I was like ‘holy crap, your job, that is the one I have been looking for.’ I approached the stranger and bluntly stated ‘I want your job, tell me what I have got to do to get it.’ Three years of study and two job interviews later that stranger has now been my colleague for the last three years and I’ve got the best fucking job in the world. I went all in, busted my ass off and took a leap, best decision ever.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Leaving a single player game because you don't like it is easy: there's minimal chance of it being changed to make it better.
With an MMO (or any live service game), they change all the time, so there's a chance that expressing constructive criticism will result in a change that you approve of.
Best example I can give of this is LotRO and it's radience mechanic. Radience was a new stat added to endgame gear in the moria expansion. It changed endgame gear into a tiered format: you always had to wear the gear with the most radience, regardless of other stats.
The community hated it, we complained about it a lot. It took a while, but eventually Turbine realised their mistake and removed radience towards the end of the mirkwood era.
The trick, with MMOs, is trying to recognise what the proper motivations are from the developers. Some developers are open to criticism, so if that criticism is valid AND the proposed changes match their vision for the game, they will change it.
Other devs have a clear vision in mind, and will just refuse to deviate.
Still others are just a bit clueless and don't really understand their own game, so pointing out problems tends to just put them on the defensive.
When you encounter a game where the devs clearly have a different goal to your own, thats when you should quit. This is what happened with me and SWTOR. Im a big SW fan and bought into the hype of the game, but it was terrible. It had loads of potential, but they wasted that potential. So, for that first year, I stuck it out and continued to post contructive criticism - how to add depth to the combat system, how to change the itemisation so it was more engaging and less tiered, how to make the stories more interesting, how to improve the pvp etc. The devs made appropriate noises, promising changes so that the game actually lived up to their pre-launch promises. So, I was happy to wait.
Then they announced the first expansion and proved to me that they didn't give a shit. They didn't even attempt to fix anything, they didnt implement a single community suggestion. Instead, they announced an xpac that doubled-down on the story and ignored every single other aspect of the game. At that point, it became clear to me that the game was never going to be changed to become more engaging for players like me, so that is when I quit. As in, I literally cancelled my sub within 30 minutes of reading the details of the xpac.
Leaving a single player game because you don't like it is easy: there's minimal chance of it being changed to make it better.
With an MMO (or any live service game), they change all the time, so there's a chance that expressing constructive criticism will result in a change that you approve of.
Best example I can give of this is LotRO and it's radience mechanic. Radience was a new stat added to endgame gear in the moria expansion. It changed endgame gear into a tiered format: you always had to wear the gear with the most radience, regardless of other stats.
The community hated it, we complained about it a lot. It took a while, but eventually Turbine realised their mistake and removed radience towards the end of the mirkwood era.
The trick, with MMOs, is trying to recognise what the proper motivations are from the developers. Some developers are open to criticism, so if that criticism is valid AND the proposed changes match their vision for the game, they will change it.
But.. keep in mind, the Radiance idea was not born in a void, it was put in, because someone wanted it, no doubt more than one person wanted it, and suggested it to them, begged them for it, perhaps only a small vocal group, but still, someone wanted that stupid radiance idea put in.
In fact, if you look at some of the most stupid and bad ideas that have hit MMO's, I guarantee you, you will find a huge trail to a segment of the gaming community that presented and pestered the devs to make it happen.
There was a post about how Blizzard Killed WoW, due to changes in the game. All those changes, every single one you hate.. was requested by someone that opted to hang around and blither about how they should put in their idea into the game, as opposed to going on to a game that already had their idea.
Just food for thought.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Leaving a single player game because you don't like it is easy: there's minimal chance of it being changed to make it better.
With an MMO (or any live service game), they change all the time, so there's a chance that expressing constructive criticism will result in a change that you approve of.
Best example I can give of this is LotRO and it's radience mechanic. Radience was a new stat added to endgame gear in the moria expansion. It changed endgame gear into a tiered format: you always had to wear the gear with the most radience, regardless of other stats.
The community hated it, we complained about it a lot. It took a while, but eventually Turbine realised their mistake and removed radience towards the end of the mirkwood era.
The trick, with MMOs, is trying to recognise what the proper motivations are from the developers. Some developers are open to criticism, so if that criticism is valid AND the proposed changes match their vision for the game, they will change it.
But.. keep in mind, the Radiance idea was not born in a void, it was put in, because someone wanted it, no doubt more than one person wanted it, and suggested it to them, begged them for it, perhaps only a small vocal group, but still, someone wanted that stupid radiance idea put in.
In fact, if you look at some of the most stupid and bad ideas that have hit MMO's, I guarantee you, you will find a huge trail to a segment of the gaming community that presented and pestered the devs to make it happen.
There was a post about how Blizzard Killed WoW, due to changes in the game. All those changes, every single one you hate.. was requested by someone that opted to hang around and blither about how they should put in their idea into the game, as opposed to going on to a game that already had their idea.
Just food for thought.
Developers react more to what customers do than to what they say. There simply is more truth to what people do. Mostly when we say things like “everybody hated that change” we are actually talking about ourselves and the like minded people we surround ourselves with.
Good or bad changes/decisions are also subjective. For every change that made you quit somebody else decided to stay around or join. Also, what is good for the company might not be good for the players and the other way around.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Leaving a single player game because you don't like it is easy: there's minimal chance of it being changed to make it better.
With an MMO (or any live service game), they change all the time, so there's a chance that expressing constructive criticism will result in a change that you approve of.
Best example I can give of this is LotRO and it's radience mechanic. Radience was a new stat added to endgame gear in the moria expansion. It changed endgame gear into a tiered format: you always had to wear the gear with the most radience, regardless of other stats.
The community hated it, we complained about it a lot. It took a while, but eventually Turbine realised their mistake and removed radience towards the end of the mirkwood era.
The trick, with MMOs, is trying to recognise what the proper motivations are from the developers. Some developers are open to criticism, so if that criticism is valid AND the proposed changes match their vision for the game, they will change it.
But.. keep in mind, the Radiance idea was not born in a void, it was put in, because someone wanted it, no doubt more than one person wanted it, and suggested it to them, begged them for it, perhaps only a small vocal group, but still, someone wanted that stupid radiance idea put in.
In fact, if you look at some of the most stupid and bad ideas that have hit MMO's, I guarantee you, you will find a huge trail to a segment of the gaming community that presented and pestered the devs to make it happen.
There was a post about how Blizzard Killed WoW, due to changes in the game. All those changes, every single one you hate.. was requested by someone that opted to hang around and blither about how they should put in their idea into the game, as opposed to going on to a game that already had their idea.
Just food for thought.
Developers react more to what customers do than to what they say. There simply is more truth to what people do. Mostly when we say things like “everybody hated that change” we are actually talking about ourselves and the like minded people we surround ourselves with.
Good or bad changes/decisions are also subjective. For every change that made you quit somebody else decided to stay around or join. Also, what is good for the company might not be good for the players and the other way around.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
If that was true, then you how to you explain the really bad ideas that developers have done, that have cost them 20% or more of their income?
Case in point, WoW lost 3 million subs after Cataclysm, and continued on a slow downward slant since.
GW2, took a direct 25% drop in income following the launch of HoT that continued in a downward slant till the Launch of PoF.
I could mention the NGE.. but that would be pushing it.
The basic thought it the same.
Players come into a game, and fuss and whine the game should change to suit them for years on end, and then would turn around tell the Dev's, "If you don't love your job, leave"
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Leaving a single player game because you don't like it is easy: there's minimal chance of it being changed to make it better.
With an MMO (or any live service game), they change all the time, so there's a chance that expressing constructive criticism will result in a change that you approve of.
Best example I can give of this is LotRO and it's radience mechanic. Radience was a new stat added to endgame gear in the moria expansion. It changed endgame gear into a tiered format: you always had to wear the gear with the most radience, regardless of other stats.
The community hated it, we complained about it a lot. It took a while, but eventually Turbine realised their mistake and removed radience towards the end of the mirkwood era.
The trick, with MMOs, is trying to recognise what the proper motivations are from the developers. Some developers are open to criticism, so if that criticism is valid AND the proposed changes match their vision for the game, they will change it.
But.. keep in mind, the Radiance idea was not born in a void, it was put in, because someone wanted it, no doubt more than one person wanted it, and suggested it to them, begged them for it, perhaps only a small vocal group, but still, someone wanted that stupid radiance idea put in.
In fact, if you look at some of the most stupid and bad ideas that have hit MMO's, I guarantee you, you will find a huge trail to a segment of the gaming community that presented and pestered the devs to make it happen.
There was a post about how Blizzard Killed WoW, due to changes in the game. All those changes, every single one you hate.. was requested by someone that opted to hang around and blither about how they should put in their idea into the game, as opposed to going on to a game that already had their idea.
Just food for thought.
Developers react more to what customers do than to what they say. There simply is more truth to what people do. Mostly when we say things like “everybody hated that change” we are actually talking about ourselves and the like minded people we surround ourselves with.
Good or bad changes/decisions are also subjective. For every change that made you quit somebody else decided to stay around or join. Also, what is good for the company might not be good for the players and the other way around.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
Players come into a game, and fuss and whine the game should change to suit them for years on end, and then would turn around tell the Dev's, "If you don't love your job, leave"
I dont' know who is saying this but I think the article are mainly talking about testers and QA who got low pay.
Leaving a single player game because you don't like it is easy: there's minimal chance of it being changed to make it better.
With an MMO (or any live service game), they change all the time, so there's a chance that expressing constructive criticism will result in a change that you approve of.
Best example I can give of this is LotRO and it's radience mechanic. Radience was a new stat added to endgame gear in the moria expansion. It changed endgame gear into a tiered format: you always had to wear the gear with the most radience, regardless of other stats.
The community hated it, we complained about it a lot. It took a while, but eventually Turbine realised their mistake and removed radience towards the end of the mirkwood era.
The trick, with MMOs, is trying to recognise what the proper motivations are from the developers. Some developers are open to criticism, so if that criticism is valid AND the proposed changes match their vision for the game, they will change it.
But.. keep in mind, the Radiance idea was not born in a void, it was put in, because someone wanted it, no doubt more than one person wanted it, and suggested it to them, begged them for it, perhaps only a small vocal group, but still, someone wanted that stupid radiance idea put in.
In fact, if you look at some of the most stupid and bad ideas that have hit MMO's, I guarantee you, you will find a huge trail to a segment of the gaming community that presented and pestered the devs to make it happen.
There was a post about how Blizzard Killed WoW, due to changes in the game. All those changes, every single one you hate.. was requested by someone that opted to hang around and blither about how they should put in their idea into the game, as opposed to going on to a game that already had their idea.
Just food for thought.
Developers react more to what customers do than to what they say. There simply is more truth to what people do. Mostly when we say things like “everybody hated that change” we are actually talking about ourselves and the like minded people we surround ourselves with.
Good or bad changes/decisions are also subjective. For every change that made you quit somebody else decided to stay around or join. Also, what is good for the company might not be good for the players and the other way around.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
Players come into a game, and fuss and whine the game should change to suit them for years on end, and then would turn around tell the Dev's, "If you don't love your job, leave"
I dont' know who is saying this but I think the article are mainly talking about testers and QA who got low pay.
That does not change my point
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
There were a lot of changes that looked like they were good ideas but then over time it was revealed damaged the game irrevocably but then it became too late to reverse the changes. Tough call to make which is why it is not a good idea to simply listen to the players. They are players after all and don't understand the impact of the changes. Developers shouldn't shirk their responsibilities and try to please the crowd. Many changes in many games have actually damaged the games and driven players away.
Some players are very vocal and adamant about their wants and they just leave the game after destroying it. For those of us who enjoy a game it is really our worst nightmare these types of clueless, selfish and shortsighted fools that developers have an ear for.
Leaving a single player game because you don't like it is easy: there's minimal chance of it being changed to make it better.
With an MMO (or any live service game), they change all the time, so there's a chance that expressing constructive criticism will result in a change that you approve of.
Best example I can give of this is LotRO and it's radience mechanic. Radience was a new stat added to endgame gear in the moria expansion. It changed endgame gear into a tiered format: you always had to wear the gear with the most radience, regardless of other stats.
The community hated it, we complained about it a lot. It took a while, but eventually Turbine realised their mistake and removed radience towards the end of the mirkwood era.
The trick, with MMOs, is trying to recognise what the proper motivations are from the developers. Some developers are open to criticism, so if that criticism is valid AND the proposed changes match their vision for the game, they will change it.
But.. keep in mind, the Radiance idea was not born in a void, it was put in, because someone wanted it, no doubt more than one person wanted it, and suggested it to them, begged them for it, perhaps only a small vocal group, but still, someone wanted that stupid radiance idea put in.
In fact, if you look at some of the most stupid and bad ideas that have hit MMO's, I guarantee you, you will find a huge trail to a segment of the gaming community that presented and pestered the devs to make it happen.
There was a post about how Blizzard Killed WoW, due to changes in the game. All those changes, every single one you hate.. was requested by someone that opted to hang around and blither about how they should put in their idea into the game, as opposed to going on to a game that already had their idea.
Just food for thought.
Developers react more to what customers do than to what they say. There simply is more truth to what people do. Mostly when we say things like “everybody hated that change” we are actually talking about ourselves and the like minded people we surround ourselves with.
Good or bad changes/decisions are also subjective. For every change that made you quit somebody else decided to stay around or join. Also, what is good for the company might not be good for the players and the other way around.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
If that was true, then you how to you explain the really bad ideas that developers have done, that have cost them 20% or more of their income?
Case in point, WoW lost 3 million subs after Cataclysm, and continued on a slow downward slant since.
GW2, took a direct 25% drop in income following the launch of HoT that continued in a downward slant till the Launch of PoF.
I could mention the NGE.. but that would be pushing it.
The basic thought it the same.
Players come into a game, and fuss and whine the game should change to suit them for years on end, and then would turn around tell the Dev's, "If you don't love your job, leave"
Because developers don’t have a crystal ball and are just humans, not every decision can be a good one. The influence the vocal minority has on this is just grossly exaggerated, number don’t lie, people do, even when they don’t realize it. They also aren’t the majority as often as they wish.
Still, you are right, many decisions are bad and will hurt players and/or the company. They haven’t been made because of a few ‘shouters’ though.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
Post edited by lahnmir on
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Most players that are complaining do this because they love and care about the game. They want to help it with, by pointing at sore points that make the game fail.
If they didnt care about the game, they would leave. Which they eventually do, when they see the sore points are ignored. They leave, and so do everyone else.
Because the devs ( and some of the sheeple fanboys ) consider these complainers "enemies" of the game, rather than real friends that they really are.
Leaving a single player game because you don't like it is easy: there's minimal chance of it being changed to make it better.
With an MMO (or any live service game), they change all the time, so there's a chance that expressing constructive criticism will result in a change that you approve of.
Best example I can give of this is LotRO and it's radience mechanic. Radience was a new stat added to endgame gear in the moria expansion. It changed endgame gear into a tiered format: you always had to wear the gear with the most radience, regardless of other stats.
The community hated it, we complained about it a lot. It took a while, but eventually Turbine realised their mistake and removed radience towards the end of the mirkwood era.
The trick, with MMOs, is trying to recognise what the proper motivations are from the developers. Some developers are open to criticism, so if that criticism is valid AND the proposed changes match their vision for the game, they will change it.
But.. keep in mind, the Radiance idea was not born in a void, it was put in, because someone wanted it, no doubt more than one person wanted it, and suggested it to them, begged them for it, perhaps only a small vocal group, but still, someone wanted that stupid radiance idea put in.
In fact, if you look at some of the most stupid and bad ideas that have hit MMO's, I guarantee you, you will find a huge trail to a segment of the gaming community that presented and pestered the devs to make it happen.
There was a post about how Blizzard Killed WoW, due to changes in the game. All those changes, every single one you hate.. was requested by someone that opted to hang around and blither about how they should put in their idea into the game, as opposed to going on to a game that already had their idea.
Just food for thought.
Developers react more to what customers do than to what they say. There simply is more truth to what people do. Mostly when we say things like “everybody hated that change” we are actually talking about ourselves and the like minded people we surround ourselves with.
Good or bad changes/decisions are also subjective. For every change that made you quit somebody else decided to stay around or join. Also, what is good for the company might not be good for the players and the other way around.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
If that was true, then you how to you explain the really bad ideas that developers have done, that have cost them 20% or more of their income?
Case in point, WoW lost 3 million subs after Cataclysm, and continued on a slow downward slant since.
GW2, took a direct 25% drop in income following the launch of HoT that continued in a downward slant till the Launch of PoF.
I could mention the NGE.. but that would be pushing it.
The basic thought it the same.
Players come into a game, and fuss and whine the game should change to suit them for years on end, and then would turn around tell the Dev's, "If you don't love your job, leave"
Because developers don’t have a crystal ball and are just humans, not every decision can be a good one. The influence the vocal minority has on this is just grossly exaggerated, number don’t lie, people do, even when they don’t realize it. They also aren’t the majority as often as they wish.
Still, you are right, many decisions are bad and will hurt players and/or the company. They haven’t been made because of a few ‘shouters’ though.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
The problem with just looking at the numbers is how do you calculate accrued dissatisfaction? Players may buy the next DLC even if many say it is rubbish, or stay an extra few months when many are saying the game is not developing/generating content fast enough.
But that accrued dissatisfaction is what makes them leave, not just what's been said about the latest patch or whatever. I think what Lahnmir is saying can lead developers to ignoring player objections, because if the numbers show there is not much effect how can what they just did be that bad? So the numbers can miss the undertow of opinion that builds up against a game.
That said, you have to factor in that most players do not read forums or social media about the games they play, I think that still holds anyway but maybe social media has changed that? So the baulk of players are not expressing an opinion in the first place. With the silent majority you cannot blame the developers for just going by the numbers as that's all they have.
Leaving a single player game because you don't like it is easy: there's minimal chance of it being changed to make it better.
With an MMO (or any live service game), they change all the time, so there's a chance that expressing constructive criticism will result in a change that you approve of.
Best example I can give of this is LotRO and it's radience mechanic. Radience was a new stat added to endgame gear in the moria expansion. It changed endgame gear into a tiered format: you always had to wear the gear with the most radience, regardless of other stats.
The community hated it, we complained about it a lot. It took a while, but eventually Turbine realised their mistake and removed radience towards the end of the mirkwood era.
The trick, with MMOs, is trying to recognise what the proper motivations are from the developers. Some developers are open to criticism, so if that criticism is valid AND the proposed changes match their vision for the game, they will change it.
But.. keep in mind, the Radiance idea was not born in a void, it was put in, because someone wanted it, no doubt more than one person wanted it, and suggested it to them, begged them for it, perhaps only a small vocal group, but still, someone wanted that stupid radiance idea put in.
In fact, if you look at some of the most stupid and bad ideas that have hit MMO's, I guarantee you, you will find a huge trail to a segment of the gaming community that presented and pestered the devs to make it happen.
There was a post about how Blizzard Killed WoW, due to changes in the game. All those changes, every single one you hate.. was requested by someone that opted to hang around and blither about how they should put in their idea into the game, as opposed to going on to a game that already had their idea.
Just food for thought.
Developers react more to what customers do than to what they say. There simply is more truth to what people do. Mostly when we say things like “everybody hated that change” we are actually talking about ourselves and the like minded people we surround ourselves with.
Good or bad changes/decisions are also subjective. For every change that made you quit somebody else decided to stay around or join. Also, what is good for the company might not be good for the players and the other way around.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
If that was true, then you how to you explain the really bad ideas that developers have done, that have cost them 20% or more of their income?
Case in point, WoW lost 3 million subs after Cataclysm, and continued on a slow downward slant since.
GW2, took a direct 25% drop in income following the launch of HoT that continued in a downward slant till the Launch of PoF.
I could mention the NGE.. but that would be pushing it.
The basic thought it the same.
Players come into a game, and fuss and whine the game should change to suit them for years on end, and then would turn around tell the Dev's, "If you don't love your job, leave"
Because developers don’t have a crystal ball and are just humans, not every decision can be a good one. The influence the vocal minority has on this is just grossly exaggerated, number don’t lie, people do, even when they don’t realize it. They also aren’t the majority as often as they wish.
Still, you are right, many decisions are bad and will hurt players and/or the company. They haven’t been made because of a few ‘shouters’ though.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
I guarantee the dumber the idea, the more it is a product of the vocal minority and you will be able to trace it right back to being something players whined for, constantly. Often the dumber the idea, the more it was a product of the player base.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Leaving a single player game because you don't like it is easy: there's minimal chance of it being changed to make it better.
With an MMO (or any live service game), they change all the time, so there's a chance that expressing constructive criticism will result in a change that you approve of.
Best example I can give of this is LotRO and it's radience mechanic. Radience was a new stat added to endgame gear in the moria expansion. It changed endgame gear into a tiered format: you always had to wear the gear with the most radience, regardless of other stats.
The community hated it, we complained about it a lot. It took a while, but eventually Turbine realised their mistake and removed radience towards the end of the mirkwood era.
The trick, with MMOs, is trying to recognise what the proper motivations are from the developers. Some developers are open to criticism, so if that criticism is valid AND the proposed changes match their vision for the game, they will change it.
But.. keep in mind, the Radiance idea was not born in a void, it was put in, because someone wanted it, no doubt more than one person wanted it, and suggested it to them, begged them for it, perhaps only a small vocal group, but still, someone wanted that stupid radiance idea put in.
In fact, if you look at some of the most stupid and bad ideas that have hit MMO's, I guarantee you, you will find a huge trail to a segment of the gaming community that presented and pestered the devs to make it happen.
There was a post about how Blizzard Killed WoW, due to changes in the game. All those changes, every single one you hate.. was requested by someone that opted to hang around and blither about how they should put in their idea into the game, as opposed to going on to a game that already had their idea.
Just food for thought.
Developers react more to what customers do than to what they say. There simply is more truth to what people do. Mostly when we say things like “everybody hated that change” we are actually talking about ourselves and the like minded people we surround ourselves with.
Good or bad changes/decisions are also subjective. For every change that made you quit somebody else decided to stay around or join. Also, what is good for the company might not be good for the players and the other way around.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
If that was true, then you how to you explain the really bad ideas that developers have done, that have cost them 20% or more of their income?
Case in point, WoW lost 3 million subs after Cataclysm, and continued on a slow downward slant since.
GW2, took a direct 25% drop in income following the launch of HoT that continued in a downward slant till the Launch of PoF.
I could mention the NGE.. but that would be pushing it.
The basic thought it the same.
Players come into a game, and fuss and whine the game should change to suit them for years on end, and then would turn around tell the Dev's, "If you don't love your job, leave"
Because developers don’t have a crystal ball and are just humans, not every decision can be a good one. The influence the vocal minority has on this is just grossly exaggerated, number don’t lie, people do, even when they don’t realize it. They also aren’t the majority as often as they wish.
Still, you are right, many decisions are bad and will hurt players and/or the company. They haven’t been made because of a few ‘shouters’ though.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
I guarantee the dumber the idea, the more it is a product of the vocal minority and you will be able to trace it right back to being something players whined for, constantly. Often the dumber the idea, the more it was a product of the player base.
Seeing how there are so many players vs available ideas for change I'm pretty sure no matter what new feature a dev team might incorporate there will always be some number of customers who can honestly claim to have suggested such.
So whether the change turns out good or bad, you'll easily be able to say the player base suggested it, even if the devs never read anything about it.
As they say, even a stopped clock is correct twice a day.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Confusing the vocal minority of internet posting gamers with the much larger majority of gamers who don't complain. This applies to all consumer products.
Alot of people put themselves in a position financially where it makes it hard for them to leave their jobs. They get sucked into so many bills and obligations that they just can't leave unless they can get the same money and benefits, which is usually difficult when going to a new job.
Basically the "you think you want it but you don't" , what happened to that guy anyway .
game companies want people leave in silent , but as consumer , you shouldn't do that , review your experience is what you can do to support community and remove the bad companies out of business .
If the game truely good , no matter bad reviews , it still fine .
Summary , if you don't like it , leave . But before leave , remember throw some tomato at them to save time of other like you .
Comments
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
I don't really see MMO discourse and these jobs as a very apt comparison. In my opinion, people complaining about jobs like these is more comparable to playing Everquest and complaining it's not an isometric skill-based progression MMO like UO.
Believe me, I would have preferred to have kept the video store job I had when I was a teenager, but it's just wasn't economically viable, so I took a harder manual labor job to pay for school. Sometimes you outgrow the game tester job and you need to find something that pays better. Sucks, but that's life.
I see what you're saying, but in the end, do other players having mounts ruin your game? Is that the final immersion breaker for you?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
So they put horses in a dungeon crawl game, like DDO, what happens when you give these players mounts? That's right! they want some place to ride their mounts. So.. Lo and Behold.. These huge ass explorer zones get put in, that are HUGE purely so that players can ride their horses from one dungeon location to another... and if I do not have a horse, it's now just a slow, long ass slog from one dungeon to another.
It's just the whole:
If you give a mouse a cookie
Effect, because the players that push for these things will never be content, and in fact giving it to them, just excites to push for more stuff, because they believe the dev will buckle to their demands.
Likewise stay in your job, the first one you ever get. Started as a paper boy, stay with that. The idea we should ever be on the look out for a different/better job is outrageous; you get a job for life, it should fulfil all your needs until you retire on a good state pension paid for by all your work as a tea boy or whatever.
Holding my hand from cradle to grave is the least I can expect from my society, and hey I delivered your papers!
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
In fact, if you look at some of the most stupid and bad ideas that have hit MMO's, I guarantee you, you will find a huge trail to a segment of the gaming community that presented and pestered the devs to make it happen.
There was a post about how Blizzard Killed WoW, due to changes in the game. All those changes, every single one you hate.. was requested by someone that opted to hang around and blither about how they should put in their idea into the game, as opposed to going on to a game that already had their idea.
Just food for thought.
Good or bad changes/decisions are also subjective. For every change that made you quit somebody else decided to stay around or join. Also, what is good for the company might not be good for the players and the other way around.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Case in point, WoW lost 3 million subs after Cataclysm, and continued on a slow downward slant since.
GW2, took a direct 25% drop in income following the launch of HoT that continued in a downward slant till the Launch of PoF.
I could mention the NGE.. but that would be pushing it.
The basic thought it the same.
Players come into a game, and fuss and whine the game should change to suit them for years on end, and then would turn around tell the Dev's, "If you don't love your job, leave"
Some players are very vocal and adamant about their wants and they just leave the game after destroying it. For those of us who enjoy a game it is really our worst nightmare these types of clueless, selfish and shortsighted fools that developers have an ear for.
Homer gets an awesome every time in my book.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
If they didnt care about the game, they would leave. Which they eventually do, when they see the sore points are ignored. They leave, and so do everyone else.
Because the devs ( and some of the sheeple fanboys ) consider these complainers "enemies" of the game, rather than real friends that they really are.
But that accrued dissatisfaction is what makes them leave, not just what's been said about the latest patch or whatever. I think what Lahnmir is saying can lead developers to ignoring player objections, because if the numbers show there is not much effect how can what they just did be that bad? So the numbers can miss the undertow of opinion that builds up against a game.
That said, you have to factor in that most players do not read forums or social media about the games they play, I think that still holds anyway but maybe social media has changed that? So the baulk of players are not expressing an opinion in the first place. With the silent majority you cannot blame the developers for just going by the numbers as that's all they have.
So whether the change turns out good or bad, you'll easily be able to say the player base suggested it, even if the devs never read anything about it.
As they say, even a stopped clock is correct twice a day.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon