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EVE Community Needs a good old fashion Beat Down

2

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  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 6,743
    tzervo said:
    Ungood said:
    Welcome to Open World PvP games.

    They are ALL like that.. and people wonder why they fail.. LOL.
    Oh and let's not forget BDO. Very much OW PVP, very much a success.
    BDO is atypical in my opinion. The whole time I played I was never attacked. I went about everywhere and traded peacefully. I honestly never felt I was in a PvP game. I think that game gave PvEers like me that best environment to thrive without worry.
    Ungood

  • tzervotzervo Member EpicPosts: 1,830
    edited October 2020
    kitarad said:
    tzervo said:
    Ungood said:
    Welcome to Open World PvP games.

    They are ALL like that.. and people wonder why they fail.. LOL.
    Oh and let's not forget BDO. Very much OW PVP, very much a success.
    BDO is atypical in my opinion. The whole time I played I was never attacked. I went about everywhere and traded peacefully. I honestly never felt I was in a PvP game. I think that game gave PvEers like me that best environment to thrive without worry.
    Same for me in EVE lately (more than a year iirc) while doing industrialism and L4 missions casually in high sec. That does not mean either of them is not a PVP game.

    I have been killed in the past when doing low sec/WH exploration in EVE and I have been contested and killed repeatedly in BDO in grind hot spots. I have also been suicide ganked as a miner in mid to high sec systems in EVE (rarely) and killed outside of Heidel/Altinova randomly (again rarely).

    Location is important. Other than that, the big difference between the two is the loot/loss mechanics. But they are both very much OW PVP Games.
    Post edited by tzervo on
    Kyleran
  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 6,743
    tzervo said:
    kitarad said:
    tzervo said:
    Ungood said:
    Welcome to Open World PvP games.

    They are ALL like that.. and people wonder why they fail.. LOL.
    Oh and let's not forget BDO. Very much OW PVP, very much a success.
    BDO is atypical in my opinion. The whole time I played I was never attacked. I went about everywhere and traded peacefully. I honestly never felt I was in a PvP game. I think that game gave PvEers like me that best environment to thrive without worry.
    Same for me in EVE lately (more than a year iirc) while doing industrialism and L4 missions casually in high sec. That does not mean either of them is not a PVP game.

    I have been killed in the past when doing low sec/WH exploration in EVE and I have been contested and killed repeatedly in BDO in grind hot spots. I have also been suicide ganked as a miner in mid to high sec systems in EVE (rarely) and killed outside of Heidel/Altinova randomly (again rarely).

    Location is important. Other than that, the big difference between the two is the loot/loss mechanics. But they are both very much OW PVP Games.
    EvE has no level limits. In BDO you can only be attacked after a certain level has been reached. If you keep yourself below that level you're absolutely safe. Doubt one can say that about EvE.

  • tzervotzervo Member EpicPosts: 1,830
    edited October 2020
    kitarad said:
    EvE has no level limits. In BDO you can only be attacked after a certain level has been reached. If you keep yourself below that level you're absolutely safe. Doubt one can say that about EvE.
    And what percentage do you reckon stays at lvl 49? Probably a small percentage, same as that of EVE players that remain exclusively docked and do station trading, manufacturing, invention etc (which also cannot be attacked and are perfectly safe). And neither of these niche playstyles is significant enough to characterize either game differently.

    EDIT: also, goal post moving.
    KyleranQuarterStack
  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 6,743
    edited October 2020
    tzervo said:
    kitarad said:
    EvE has no level limits. In BDO you can only be attacked after a certain level has been reached. If you keep yourself below that level you're absolutely safe. Doubt one can say that about EvE.
    And what percentage do you reckon stays at lvl 49? Probably a small percentage, same as that of EVE players that remain exclusively docked and do station trading, manufacturing, invention etc (which can actually be very profitable and which also cannot be attacked). And neither of these niche playstyles is significant enough to characterize either game differently.
    In BDO you can trade anywhere and use the nodes you have opened and I opened them even when the mobs were purple to me. I did die repeatedly to the mobs in some areas and had to get help to train them off but once opened my workers can go there. So a PvE player is absolutely safe in BDO and able to PvE to their heart's content and you cannot say that about EvE.

    I am just pointing out why BDO might be even more successful due to the fact that PvE players are completely safe from PvP and able to go to any area. You get killed in EvE if you try a fraction of the stuff you can do in BDO.

    You're looking at it from a PvP player's point of view whereas I am talking about it from a PvE player's point of view. 

    While I may not have any hard stats on how many players stay at the safe level I doubt you do either. I can only speak for the other PvE players who have expressed their enjoyment of the game with regards to having the freedom to trade and farm, develop and progress in crafting, breeding and fishing in a game that also has PvP. The PvP has not adversely affected us as it would in EvE thus contributing to BDO's enormous success.
    Gdemami

  • tzervotzervo Member EpicPosts: 1,830
    edited October 2020
    kitarad said:

    You're looking at it from a PvP player's point of view whereas I am talking about it from a PvE player's point of view. 
    I am not a PVP player. I am a PVE player who likes playing in both PVE and PVP games, and rarely dabbles in PVP. As for the rest, that's moving goal posts. I am standing by my arguments so far, nothing more to say. Feel free to believe BDO is not an OW PVP game or it is atypical or any other euphimism you want to use :)
    Gdemami
  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 6,743
    edited October 2020
    tzervo said:
    kitarad said:

    You're looking at it from a PvP player's point of view whereas I am talking about it from a PvE player's point of view. 
    I am not a PVP player. I am a PVE player who likes playing in both PVE and PVP games. As for the rest, that's moving goal posts. I am standing by my arguments so far, nothing more to say. Feel free to believe BDO is not an OW PVP game or it is atypical or any other euphimism you want to use :)
    Far from moving goal posts I merely expounded on the popularity of BDO.

    Creating safe playing for PvE players is why BDO is successful. I would also argue that Archeage would also be very successful if it didn't have such ridiculous monetization and energy restrictions.
    Gdemami

  • tzervotzervo Member EpicPosts: 1,830
    edited October 2020
    kitarad said:
    I merely expounded on the popularity of BDO.
    Creating safe playing for PvE players is why BDO is successful. 
    - Fun combat.
    - Great graphics.
    - Fun non-combat systems and activities.
    - Immersive world feeling.
    - Less on-rails experience than a pure themepark, different enough from the army of WOW clones.

    Those are the reasons I have seen being widely quoted for BDO's success. None of these have to do with safe PVE (or even PVP for that matter). What you are trying to do is pass off your own reasons (and maybe those of your close circle of gaming friends, with whom you obviously have the same tastes, see confirmation bias) as the actual reasons for its success.

    Fun fact: http://forum.blackdesertonline.com/index.php?/topic/434-are-you-pvp-or-pve-player-poll/&page=1
  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 6,743
    edited October 2020
    As far as the mobs go BDO has pretty poor mobs. They just stand there they have very poor AI. The PvP however is dependent on how much money you sink into it. The RNG is brutal. Cannot really say how many players play the game for this aspect but it does seem lopsided.

    I do know from this forum alone several posters who totally abhor the system in place for upgrading the gear. I doubt the PvP is that competitive given the system of upgrading is totally dpendent on how much money you sink into it.

    However the trading, crafting, farming, fishing , horse breeding and exploration is exceptional in BDO. The life systems I think it is called.

    That poll seems to support my view actually if the PvP and PvE are almost 50-50% that is indicative that an almost equal number of players love the game for the PvE. Thanks you for the supportive poll.
    Gdemami

  • EldrachEldrach Member UncommonPosts: 260
    Logged, found out that you can’t actually fly your ship properly..logged off, deleted. Done
    Gdemami
  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 6,743
    Eldrach said:
    Logged, found out that you can’t actually fly your ship properly..logged off, deleted. Done
    What do you mean are the controls broken?

  • tzervotzervo Member EpicPosts: 1,830
    edited October 2020
    kitarad said:

    That poll seems to support my view actually if the PvP and PvE are almost 50-50% that is indicative that an almost equal number of players love the game for the PvE. Thanks you for the supportive poll.
    "A game that can attract both a lot of PVP and a lot of PVE players will be successful"

    You don't say. Did I ever argue otherwise? Nowhere does it say that these players stayed in the below-50 lvl zone. I am still willing to bet this is a niche category.

    Also, there is a large number of players doing L4 PVE missions, incursions, exploration, mining, manufacturing and invention in EVE. Not everyone plays it for the PVP. That is one of the reasons that it does well after so many years compared to other full loot OW PVP games: variety of activities and playstyles. Same for Albion and HC expeditions, crafting, gathering, island farms, laborers, and town crafting shops.
  • tzervotzervo Member EpicPosts: 1,830
    edited October 2020
    kitarad said:
    Eldrach said:
    Logged, found out that you can’t actually fly your ship properly..logged off, deleted. Done
    What do you mean are the controls broken?
    He was probably expecting something similar to E:D or Vendetta Online, or maybe STO, instead of a point-and-click control scheme.
    Kylerankitarad
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 38,917
    tzervo said:
    kitarad said:
    Eldrach said:
    Logged, found out that you can’t actually fly your ship properly..logged off, deleted. Done
    What do you mean are the controls broken?
    He was probably expecting something similar to E:D or Vendetta Online, or maybe STO, instead of a point-and-click control scheme.
    EVEs space combat more realistically simulates how a ship the size of an aircraft carrier might be navigated in outer space.

    Many seem to want Star Wars style fighter manuverability which totally defies physics as we understand them today.
    tzervoUngood

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  • tzervotzervo Member EpicPosts: 1,830
    edited October 2020
    Kyleran said:
    tzervo said:
    kitarad said:
    Eldrach said:
    Logged, found out that you can’t actually fly your ship properly..logged off, deleted. Done
    What do you mean are the controls broken?
    He was probably expecting something similar to E:D or Vendetta Online, or maybe STO, instead of a point-and-click control scheme.
    EVEs space combat more realistically simulates how a ship the size of an aircraft carrier might be navigated in outer space.

    Many seem to want Star Wars style fighter manuverability which totally defies physics as we understand them today.
    Pushes glasses back: "Achtshually"... :P
    I remember reading that EVE ships movement has a viscosity that is not applicable to space movement but rather to objects submerged in fluids. Iirc the closest to realistic space movement would be E:D with flight assist off.
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 6,392
    tzervo said:
    Ungood said:
    Welcome to Open World PvP games.

    They are ALL like that.. and people wonder why they fail.. LOL.
    Oh and let's not forget BDO. Very much OW PVP, very much a success.
    Eh.. I played BDO for like 30ish levels (Hated the UI).. in those levels, not only was I never attacked, I never saw anyone else get attacked, and I could not attack anyone (and I tell you, if I could have, I would have hit a lot of people by mistake).. so.. gonna put this out, for an OW PvP it sucked, because it lacked the PvP part of that.
    Gdemami
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

    I'm Famous! Slapshot has Me in his Signature. Check it out!
  • tzervotzervo Member EpicPosts: 1,830
    edited October 2020
    Ungood said:
    tzervo said:
    Ungood said:
    Welcome to Open World PvP games.

    They are ALL like that.. and people wonder why they fail.. LOL.
    Oh and let's not forget BDO. Very much OW PVP, very much a success.
    Eh.. I played BDO for like 30ish levels (Hated the UI).. in those levels, not only was I never attacked, I never saw anyone else get attacked, and I could not attack anyone (and I tell you, if I could have, I would have hit a lot of people by mistake).. so.. gonna put this out, for an OW PvP it sucked, because it lacked the PvP part of that.
    Up to lvl 49 you are immune from PVP. You get to lvl 49 with normal gameplay in less than a week or around that timeframe iirc. This is essentially the tutorial. After that, those that absolutely totally do not want to be touched by PVP can stick to that level and keep picking flowers and running worker empires. But they will not be able to level, keep progressing in combat skills, get awakenings, do lots of PVE content (since the monsters will be able to one shoot them) etc. And apart from a tiny fraction of even the PVE playerbase, noone stays at 49.

    If you go to the good PVE grindspots, or do node wars or sieges, you can easily find PVP, and it can find you. PVE players avoid most of the PVP by going to the "2nd tier" grindspots which are less contested. Same with EVE and high sec: low risk, low reward.

    Agreed on the UI. I also found it horrible. Same for the AFK mechanics and feeling compelled to keep the PC running all the time. I am not arguing if it is a good game or not (personally I gave it a fair shake and rejected it). But: it is successful, and it is an OW PVP game.
    Ungood
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342
    edited October 2020
    tzervo said:
    Pushes glasses back: "Achtshually"... :P
    I remember reading that EVE ships movement has a viscosity that is not applicable to space movement but rather to objects submerged in fluids. Iirc the closest to realistic space movement would be E:D with flight assist off.
    ...you missed the point entirely.

    It's not the physics implementation but how you control the ship - an idea that you control (a massive) spaceship with a flightstick in a dogfight vs other ship.

    It is not even true for some decades in real aerial combat.
    tzervoKyleran
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 6,392
    tzervo said:
    Ungood said:
    tzervo said:
    Ungood said:
    Welcome to Open World PvP games.

    They are ALL like that.. and people wonder why they fail.. LOL.
    Oh and let's not forget BDO. Very much OW PVP, very much a success.
    Eh.. I played BDO for like 30ish levels (Hated the UI).. in those levels, not only was I never attacked, I never saw anyone else get attacked, and I could not attack anyone (and I tell you, if I could have, I would have hit a lot of people by mistake).. so.. gonna put this out, for an OW PvP it sucked, because it lacked the PvP part of that.
    Up to lvl 49 you are immune from PVP. You get to lvl 49 with normal gameplay in less than a week or around that timeframe iirc. This is essentially the tutorial. After that, those that absolutely totally do not want to be touched by PVP can stick to that level and keep picking flowers and running worker empires. But they will not be able to level, keep progressing in combat skills, get awakenings, do lots of PVE content (since the monsters will be able to one shoot them) etc. And apart from a tiny fraction of even the PVE playerbase, noone stays at 49.

    If you go to the good PVE grindspots, or do node wars or sieges, you can easily find PVP, and it can find you. PVE players avoid most of the PVP by going to the "2nd tier" grindspots which are less contested. Same with EVE and high sec: low risk, low reward.

    Agreed on the UI. I also found it horrible. Same for the AFK mechanics and feeling compelled to keep the PC running all the time. I am not arguing if it is a good game or not (personally I gave it a fair shake and rejected it). But: it is successful, and it is an OW PVP game.
    While insightful that is not what I would call a Open World PvP game, and I wager a lot of people stayed at 49th, now that you mention it, I do recall BDO having some major issues with that, and something to do with PvP flags or PvE servers.
    Gdemami
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

    I'm Famous! Slapshot has Me in his Signature. Check it out!
  • tzervotzervo Member EpicPosts: 1,830
    edited October 2020
    Ungood said:
    While insightful that is not what I would call a Open World PvP game, and I wager a lot of people stayed at 49th, now that you mention it, I do recall BDO having some major issues with that, and something to do with PvP flags or PvE servers.
    I would take that wager.

    The issues between PVE and PVP players that you may remember is karma bombing and messing up with grinding rotations by killing mobs here and there. But that had nothing to do with staying at lvl 49. I think you are right that it had to do with flagging up, can't remember all the details, @kitarad seems to have played the game more/more recently and might be able to verify or correct me. I do not remember BDO ever having PVE servers, but I do remember them adding a PVP channel (I assume with no karma losses or perma flagging or sumfin).
  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 4,777
    The one thing I agree with from the OP is that the UI and font sizes are far too small, and as of the last time I tried to get involved with EVE, there was no way to resize the font size.  Trying to read that font gave me headaches.  So, I quit and uninstalled.  Be thankful for your good eyesight.

    Community is what the players make of it, nothing really to do with the game, the software, or the developers.  I suspect the OP approached the community with negative and hostile words, and instigated misery by making a target of himself.



    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • tzervotzervo Member EpicPosts: 1,830
    edited October 2020
    Mendel said:
    The one thing I agree with from the OP is that the UI and font sizes are far too small, and as of the last time I tried to get involved with EVE, there was no way to resize the font size.  Trying to read that font gave me headaches.  So, I quit and uninstalled.  Be thankful for your good eyesight.
    There are controls for the font size in the chat window, for the right click menus font size and for the UI scale in general (which also increases font size in windows). Not sure if they added them after you last tried the game, I think they were always there.
    Gdemami
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 6,392
    tzervo said:
    Ungood said:
    Also.. Just for the record.

    Just to grasp this. Steam all Time Peak: Trove was at 58K, Albinon was at 13K.

    Albinon has never seen the Success that Trove has, ever, and Trove was at best a some small time niche game for people that wanted to play a Voxel MMO. It was never, ever a major player in the MMO field.
    Comparing with Steam numbers in a game that also has a non-Steam client which has a larger piece of the pie has always been sloppy or disingenuous.
    So has Comparing the population of B2P, F2P, and Sub Based Games, but, here you are, doing just that.

    And for the record, Trove, like EvE, Albinon, DDO, and a slew of other MMO's, also has its own launcher, so, using their steam numbers as a baseline to get a feel for their comparative populations, is not as disingenuous as it seems.
    tzervoGdemami
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

    I'm Famous! Slapshot has Me in his Signature. Check it out!
  • tzervotzervo Member EpicPosts: 1,830
    edited October 2020
    Ungood said:
    So has Comparing the population of B2P, F2P, and Sub Based Games, but, here you are, doing just that.

    And for the record, Trove, like EvE, Albinon, DDO, and a slew of other MMO's, also has its own launcher, so, using their steam numbers as a baseline to get a feel for their comparative populations, is not as disingenuous as it seems.
    Agree with the first paragraph, if you are looking for more than a single population number (i.e. "quality" of the population). Good point. Still, population numbers are a number that you can compare with some accuracy, and they do carry some importance. The other thing you could see is revenue and how large studios are (how many employees they can sustain).

    Steam numbers as a baseline are dangerous for drawing conclusions and depend heavily on the game. For example EVE right now shows ~40k concurrent players. Out of those only ~6k play on Steam (I literally just launched the client to check).
  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 4,777
    tzervo said:
    Mendel said:
    The one thing I agree with from the OP is that the UI and font sizes are far too small, and as of the last time I tried to get involved with EVE, there was no way to resize the font size.  Trying to read that font gave me headaches.  So, I quit and uninstalled.  Be thankful for your good eyesight.
    There are controls for the font size in the chat window, for the right click menus font size and for the UI scale in general (which also increases font size in windows). Not sure if they added them after you last tried the game, I think they were always there.

    Last time I tried it, the controls did not affect the Outliner.  Or at least, I couldn't get it to work the way I needed it to.



    Gdemami

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

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