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New Raph Koster game tries to please everyone?

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  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,102
    Scot said:
    Any of us who have played a few MMOs know you cannot appeal to every kind of MMO player equally and that certain playstyles are antagonistic to others. I am not just talking about PvE and PvP, crafters and those who don't craft are problematic. Crafters want the best gear to be crafted, those who don't craft want loot drops to be excellent, raiders want raid gear to be tops and PVPers don't like it when their gear is only best for PvP.

    You simply cannot fully please everyone, admit that and players will be on side. You can mitigate certain issues, RvR does that for PvE and PvP as far I am concerned. But there are no perfect solutions or la-la land MMOs where we can all get together and play the exact gameplay play we all want to play.
    Well, I cant speak for others but I always felt that if you have multiphe spheres available,  that every sphere should give you a decent set of equipment, but to have the best, you will need all of them.

    So if your game for example has raiding, adventuring, and crafting, you can get a good set of gear from each of them, but for the best of the best equipment you will have to pursue all three areas.

    About crafting, I think my approach would be to make standard crafting easy accessible. If you want to be an expert crafter however you will have to invest a lot of time, and you will only be great in one area. So for example the master weaponsmith cannot also be the master armorsmith.

    But then, you're manipulating players to participate in game features they don't like for the top gear, which everyone should "enjoy" trying to get.

    Remember, you're mixing aspects not every player wants to do. No one will be happy unless they enjoy ALL aspects required, which certainly some (many?) players do.

    Is that making sense?

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 4,411
    AlBQuirky said:
    Scot said:
    Any of us who have played a few MMOs know you cannot appeal to every kind of MMO player equally and that certain playstyles are antagonistic to others. I am not just talking about PvE and PvP, crafters and those who don't craft are problematic. Crafters want the best gear to be crafted, those who don't craft want loot drops to be excellent, raiders want raid gear to be tops and PVPers don't like it when their gear is only best for PvP.

    You simply cannot fully please everyone, admit that and players will be on side. You can mitigate certain issues, RvR does that for PvE and PvP as far I am concerned. But there are no perfect solutions or la-la land MMOs where we can all get together and play the exact gameplay play we all want to play.
    Well, I cant speak for others but I always felt that if you have multiphe spheres available,  that every sphere should give you a decent set of equipment, but to have the best, you will need all of them.

    So if your game for example has raiding, adventuring, and crafting, you can get a good set of gear from each of them, but for the best of the best equipment you will have to pursue all three areas.

    About crafting, I think my approach would be to make standard crafting easy accessible. If you want to be an expert crafter however you will have to invest a lot of time, and you will only be great in one area. So for example the master weaponsmith cannot also be the master armorsmith.

    But then, you're manipulating players to participate in game features they don't like for the top gear, which everyone should "enjoy" trying to get.

    Remember, you're mixing aspects not every player wants to do. No one will be happy unless they enjoy ALL aspects required, which certainly some (many?) players do.

    Is that making sense?

    I dont force anyone though. You can just keep playing whatever sphere you like and you will still get a good set of equipment. Just not the best.

    I cant think of a more solomonic solution to this problem.

    Please set a sig so I can read your posting even if somebody "agreed" etc with it. Thanks.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 35,982
    AlBQuirky said:
    Scot said:
    Any of us who have played a few MMOs know you cannot appeal to every kind of MMO player equally and that certain playstyles are antagonistic to others. I am not just talking about PvE and PvP, crafters and those who don't craft are problematic. Crafters want the best gear to be crafted, those who don't craft want loot drops to be excellent, raiders want raid gear to be tops and PVPers don't like it when their gear is only best for PvP.

    You simply cannot fully please everyone, admit that and players will be on side. You can mitigate certain issues, RvR does that for PvE and PvP as far I am concerned. But there are no perfect solutions or la-la land MMOs where we can all get together and play the exact gameplay play we all want to play.
    Well, I cant speak for others but I always felt that if you have multiphe spheres available,  that every sphere should give you a decent set of equipment, but to have the best, you will need all of them.

    So if your game for example has raiding, adventuring, and crafting, you can get a good set of gear from each of them, but for the best of the best equipment you will have to pursue all three areas.

    About crafting, I think my approach would be to make standard crafting easy accessible. If you want to be an expert crafter however you will have to invest a lot of time, and you will only be great in one area. So for example the master weaponsmith cannot also be the master armorsmith.

    But then, you're manipulating players to participate in game features they don't like for the top gear, which everyone should "enjoy" trying to get.

    Remember, you're mixing aspects not every player wants to do. No one will be happy unless they enjoy ALL aspects required, which certainly some (many?) players do.

    Is that making sense?

    I dont force anyone though. You can just keep playing whatever sphere you like and you will still get a good set of equipment. Just not the best.

    I cant think of a more solomonic solution to this problem.

    I can think of a more Solomon like solution, let every player pursue only what they like, yet all roads lead to the best gear.

    Whether a player chooses to play all aspects of the game, or totally specialize in just one, make the same top end equipment available to all.

    EVE is basically like this, with everything being available for purchase or resale, as long as one has enough ISK, it's possible to obtain most anything.

    Oh, for those really rare items which some players manage to get, like blue print originals or limited edition tournament ships CCP has got your back.

    With the recent changes to Upwell structures making them vulnerable to attack and being looted even in High Sec after CCP promised they wouldn't be, the pirates went wild pillaging and looting trillions of ISK worth of rare gear from inactive players who never knew what hit them.

     ;) 
    AlBQuirkyGdemami

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 4,411
    In your solution there is no point in doing more than one sphere though.
    Please set a sig so I can read your posting even if somebody "agreed" etc with it. Thanks.
  • kitaradkitarad Member EpicPosts: 5,743
    edited June 17
    Do you have to be forced to do content to enjoy it? Has a game developer so little confidence in their systems that without making raids mandatory for content it will mean no one will do them.

    This is essentially what happened in WoW. At some point since the best gear fell off raid bosses they had to introduce LFR to enable people to get them. This is such a tragic turn on the whole concept of raiding. Raids were done by guilds as an event in Everquest. You got together in the weekend and spent hours raiding and sometimes walked away with nothing as I often did. :'(

    It didn't mean I didn't raid the next weekend, I did, because the raid itself was a great event. It was difficult and required organisation and sometimes we wiped and then we went back and got our corpses and moved further in. All that wonderful sense of adventure is gone now if you have to raid and when you cannot get enough people you join a Looking For Raid group.

    No I really don't think you should force only one method of getting the best gear. It's not something one enjoys to be sure when the only reason you do it is for the gear. Make the raid interesting enough that it is a weekly thing for players to enjoy. By placing top gear there you are merely creating a hierarchy that ends in resentment.

    Not saying the top gear in Everquest did not fall off those difficult raids but I suppose it was the fact that it was new to us all but the gear was a secondary it was the raid that took prominence. The activity over the loot. We don't think in those terms any more because we have become so methodical in our quest to the top of the game that having fun while doing it is an afterthought.
    AlBQuirkyGdemami

  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,335
    The thing is raid gear are almost always the last gear you get.  In fact usually the prerequisite to raid is get the best non raid gear.  

    Most guild can only spend a limited amount of time raiding per week.  And raid dungeon are usually time gated.  So naturally you progress slower for raid.    
    Scot
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,102
    edited June 17
    In your solution there is no point in doing more than one sphere though.

    Exactly.

    Your way MAKES players who want good (or the best gear) participate in ALL aspects, like them or not. You basically gimp those who don't, which is never fun.

    Why must one craft if they hate it? Why must one raid if they hate it? Why must one PvP if they hate it? Your solution is to MAKE players "do it all."

    Personally, I'd avoid that game.
    SovrathKyleranMendel

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 35,982
    AlBQuirky said:
    In your solution there is no point in doing more than one sphere though.

    Exactly.

    Your way MAKES players who want good (or the best gear) participate in ALL aspects, like them or not. You basically gimp those who don't, which is never fun.

    Why must one craft if they hate it? Why must one raid if they hate it? Why must one PvP if they hate it? Your solution is to MAKE players "do it all."

    Personally, I'd avoid that game.
    One possible solution is to create BIS gear for each role but the trick is to makes sure what's best in one role, say raiding, isn't also better than BIS in PVP or even day to day Dungeon running.




    AlBQuirky

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • cameltosiscameltosis Member EpicPosts: 2,496
    Kyleran said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    In your solution there is no point in doing more than one sphere though.

    Exactly.

    Your way MAKES players who want good (or the best gear) participate in ALL aspects, like them or not. You basically gimp those who don't, which is never fun.

    Why must one craft if they hate it? Why must one raid if they hate it? Why must one PvP if they hate it? Your solution is to MAKE players "do it all."

    Personally, I'd avoid that game.
    One possible solution is to create BIS gear for each role but the trick is to makes sure what's best in one role, say raiding, isn't also better than BIS in PVP or even day to day Dungeon running.





    Best solution is what you already listed Kyleran: make the best gear purchasable using money.

    You said it works well in Eve, it certainly worked great in SWG.

    That way, nobody ever forces you to participate in any activity you dislike. Do what you enjoy, then when you have the cash, go buy your upgrades. I personally used to enjoy grinding rancor missions - I enjoyed the visuals and it was a predictable (if a bit slow) income stream. But, I had friends that were crafters, thats how they made their cash. Others spent their time fighting nightsisters for rare drops. Others camped special spawns that dropped high-end crafting items.

    Choice

    Thats what it comes down to. Give players choice, and they'll find what works best for them.


    If the devs still need to motivate people to do raids and stuff, they can always just put some high end crafting mats as drops. Means the people who enjoy raiding can still do it, and then sell the mats to those who prefer doing something else.



    [Side note: the "best" solution is to not have a best set of armour. make them all worthwhile.....horizontal progression!]
    tzervoKyleranAlBQuirky
  • iixviiiixiixviiiix Member RarePosts: 2,113
    About "best gears" ,  people here should understand that gears have 2 parts :

    offense gears (weapons)
    defense gears (armors)

    One should stay same while other progress to balance things out .

    The most mistake that all MMORPG designer made when try to mix PVP in PVE were ,  they progress both type of gears .

    That's why nearly all MMORPG end with same problem , gears gap .



    Gdemami
  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 10,117
    cheyane said:
    Oh don't fall for the ruse, it is just his way of riling up the players that enjoy PvE. I doubt he honestly believes half of what he writes here because then it would be pathetic if he actually measures his success on winning games equating to the worth of a person. It would also indicate a serious lack of self worth. 

    Enjoy his barbs and just skip along like I do.
    I am simply speaking my truth.

     I will never forget being in a server first raid guild in WoW talking to an 1800 ranked arena player and telling him raiding was harder.

    A year later I was still raiding in now a world 300 guild ranking top 20 affliction warlock on world of logs. In addition I had become a 2700 rated affectionate lock in 3v3 arena.

    I understood how wrong I was when talking to that person a year prior. It easily took 500 hundred matches just to get used to the spread of arena. Easily another 500 to even care about rank and another 500 too get good.

    What I’m saying is I cannot stomach calling myself good when knowingly only playing 50% of a game. 

    Whatever it is I do it to the best of my ability, to be the best. I don’t get people who get killed in a game and it ruins their day. People who become traumatized from losing/failing People who do not try to be better. People who are ok with fallacies. 

    Aye it’s ok if you’re not like me, but please do not lie to yourself and call yourself good if you only give half the effort. 
    GdemamiArglebargle
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 35,982
    edited June 17
    bcbully said:
    cheyane said:
    Oh don't fall for the ruse, it is just his way of riling up the players that enjoy PvE. I doubt he honestly believes half of what he writes here because then it would be pathetic if he actually measures his success on winning games equating to the worth of a person. It would also indicate a serious lack of self worth. 

    Enjoy his barbs and just skip along like I do.
    I am simply speaking my truth.

     I will never forget being in a server first raid guild in WoW talking to an 1800 ranked arena player and telling him raiding was harder.

    A year later I was still raiding in now a world 300 guild ranking top 20 affliction warlock on world of logs. In addition I had become a 2700 rated affectionate lock in 3v3 arena.

    I understood how wrong I was when talking to that person a year prior. It easily took 500 hundred matches just to get used to the spread of arena. Easily another 500 to even care about rank and another 500 too get good.

    What I’m saying is I cannot stomach calling myself good when knowingly only playing 50% of a game. 

    Whatever it is I do it to the best of my ability, to be the best. I don’t get people who get killed in a game and it ruins their day. People who become traumatized from losing/failing People who do not try to be better. People who are ok with fallacies. 

    Aye it’s ok if you’re not like me, but please do not lie to yourself and call yourself good if you only give half the effort. 
    Humility isn't your long suit is it?

    In life I've often found the people who really were the best at something rarely felt the need to brag about it.

    Then there are the wannabes...


    RhoklawkitaradGdemamiAlBQuirky

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 12,883
    edited June 18
    Scot said:
    Any of us who have played a few MMOs know you cannot appeal to every kind of MMO player equally and that certain playstyles are antagonistic to others. I am not just talking about PvE and PvP, crafters and those who don't craft are problematic. Crafters want the best gear to be crafted, those who don't craft want loot drops to be excellent, raiders want raid gear to be tops and PVPers don't like it when their gear is only best for PvP.

    You simply cannot fully please everyone, admit that and players will be on side. You can mitigate certain issues, RvR does that for PvE and PvP as far I am concerned. But there are no perfect solutions or la-la land MMOs where we can all get together and play the exact gameplay play we all want to play.
    Well, I cant speak for others but I always felt that if you have multiphe spheres available,  that every sphere should give you a decent set of equipment, but to have the best, you will need all of them.

    So if your game for example has raiding, adventuring, and crafting, you can get a good set of gear from each of them, but for the best of the best equipment you will have to pursue all three areas.

    About crafting, I think my approach would be to make standard crafting easy accessible. If you want to be an expert crafter however you will have to invest a lot of time, and you will only be great in one area. So for example the master weaponsmith cannot also be the master armorsmith.

    This is how the best systems I have seen have worked, your PvPers get the best gear for PvP, your raiders get the best gear for raiding, crafting makes the best gear for "questing". But that does not mean players will not want their gear to be better at everything else. If it was down to me you would not even be able to use raid gear outside of raids except as a skin and the same for PvP. But what tends to happen is you can use them outside the specialist area they were made for...cue the complaints and player angst about how good PvP gear should be in a raid and so on.

    It is not just crafting either, time is something we do not all have equally. How easy should it be to traverse the game world, how easy to level up crafting? The best solution is to make the most important areas of the game take a very long time to achieve, while making sure there is always something for those with less time to do. Even then those with more time will say the "time conscious" are getting too much for little effort and those with less time to play will say the game is only made for those who live in it 24/7.

    So we just have to realise that MMOs attract players from many types of gaming backgrounds, with many types expectations. You can't cater to them all.
     
    AlBQuirkyKyleranSovrath

     25 Agrees

    You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    Now Doesn't That Make You Feel All Warm And Fuzzy Inside? :P

  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 10,117
    Kyleran said:
    bcbully said:
    cheyane said:
    Oh don't fall for the ruse, it is just his way of riling up the players that enjoy PvE. I doubt he honestly believes half of what he writes here because then it would be pathetic if he actually measures his success on winning games equating to the worth of a person. It would also indicate a serious lack of self worth. 

    Enjoy his barbs and just skip along like I do.
    I am simply speaking my truth.

     I will never forget being in a server first raid guild in WoW talking to an 1800 ranked arena player and telling him raiding was harder.

    A year later I was still raiding in now a world 300 guild ranking top 20 affliction warlock on world of logs. In addition I had become a 2700 rated affectionate lock in 3v3 arena.

    I understood how wrong I was when talking to that person a year prior. It easily took 500 hundred matches just to get used to the spread of arena. Easily another 500 to even care about rank and another 500 too get good.

    What I’m saying is I cannot stomach calling myself good when knowingly only playing 50% of a game. 

    Whatever it is I do it to the best of my ability, to be the best. I don’t get people who get killed in a game and it ruins their day. People who become traumatized from losing/failing People who do not try to be better. People who are ok with fallacies. 

    Aye it’s ok if you’re not like me, but please do not lie to yourself and call yourself good if you only give half the effort. 
    Humility isn't your long suit is it?

    In life I've often found the people who really were the best at something rarely felt the need to brag about it.

    Then there are the wannabes...


    And that’s your only take away?
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,102
    bcbully said:
    Kyleran said:
    bcbully said:
    cheyane said:
    Oh don't fall for the ruse, it is just his way of riling up the players that enjoy PvE. I doubt he honestly believes half of what he writes here because then it would be pathetic if he actually measures his success on winning games equating to the worth of a person. It would also indicate a serious lack of self worth. 

    Enjoy his barbs and just skip along like I do.
    I am simply speaking my truth.

     I will never forget being in a server first raid guild in WoW talking to an 1800 ranked arena player and telling him raiding was harder.

    A year later I was still raiding in now a world 300 guild ranking top 20 affliction warlock on world of logs. In addition I had become a 2700 rated affectionate lock in 3v3 arena.

    I understood how wrong I was when talking to that person a year prior. It easily took 500 hundred matches just to get used to the spread of arena. Easily another 500 to even care about rank and another 500 too get good.

    What I’m saying is I cannot stomach calling myself good when knowingly only playing 50% of a game. 

    Whatever it is I do it to the best of my ability, to be the best. I don’t get people who get killed in a game and it ruins their day. People who become traumatized from losing/failing People who do not try to be better. People who are ok with fallacies. 

    Aye it’s ok if you’re not like me, but please do not lie to yourself and call yourself good if you only give half the effort. 
    Humility isn't your long suit is it?

    In life I've often found the people who really were the best at something rarely felt the need to brag about it.

    Then there are the wannabes...


    And that’s your only take away?

    After that anonymous internet person's list of "accomplishments", what were you expecting? Awe? Praise? Worship?
    Kyleran

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • cheyanecheyane Member EpicPosts: 7,026
    bcbully said:
    cheyane said:
    Oh don't fall for the ruse, it is just his way of riling up the players that enjoy PvE. I doubt he honestly believes half of what he writes here because then it would be pathetic if he actually measures his success on winning games equating to the worth of a person. It would also indicate a serious lack of self worth. 

    Enjoy his barbs and just skip along like I do.
    I am simply speaking my truth.

     I will never forget being in a server first raid guild in WoW talking to an 1800 ranked arena player and telling him raiding was harder.

    A year later I was still raiding in now a world 300 guild ranking top 20 affliction warlock on world of logs. In addition I had become a 2700 rated affectionate lock in 3v3 arena.

    I understood how wrong I was when talking to that person a year prior. It easily took 500 hundred matches just to get used to the spread of arena. Easily another 500 to even care about rank and another 500 too get good.

    What I’m saying is I cannot stomach calling myself good when knowingly only playing 50% of a game. 

    Whatever it is I do it to the best of my ability, to be the best. I don’t get people who get killed in a game and it ruins their day. People who become traumatized from losing/failing People who do not try to be better. People who are ok with fallacies. 

    Aye it’s ok if you’re not like me, but please do not lie to yourself and call yourself good if you only give half the effort. 


    Are posters bragging about how good they are? 

    The only thing I saw was you telling others they aren't good enough. That is not the same thing. If you feel the need to prove to others that you're better than them that is also on you. Why do you feel you need to do that BTW is it a PvP psyche thing?

    Why does it bother you that others don't want players to kill them and in fact ruin their day. Don't people have the right to feel how they want to in a game. I play games to enjoy myself not to be constantly reminded how poor I am at it. That's simply not my idea of fun.

    I readily admit I suck at most games. I am not out to prove something to other people and definitely not in my advancing age  suffering from any delusions about how well I play. I play to have fun in the game and I'm not out to prove anything and I don't need to. I am proud of things I can accomplish with my meagre abilities. I do not need approval to enjoy a game at the level I can manage to play it. 

    I am playing PSO2 and the only class I can play is a summoner. I tried other classes and performed abysmally dying even during the tutorial which is pathetic but I am not discouraged I will play the summoner and achieve the highest I can with what pathetic skills I have. If I'm satisfied with that why should anyone else feel bad for me?
    GdemamiKyleranAlBQuirky
    image
  • IsilithTehrothIsilithTehroth Member UncommonPosts: 524
    You can have all the play styles working independantly or cohesively in a world, you just need preventive or punitive mechanics that stop griefing. 

    There just needs to be ample content for each playstyle that interconnects; runescape is a good example. Sure the whole basis is on a huge amount of grind but the foundation is there. Each skill and it's products interact with all playstyles, mechanics and skills in the game.

    I am a fan of full loot pvp anywhere, but I realize the pvp anywhere can't sustain the other playstyles. So you just make huge expansive zones with increasingly dangerous but rewarding mechanics.

    Mmorpgs need to start making all the playstyles indepth and expansive because the reason why most games die is due to boredom, even if you have the best player based pvp in any mmorpg, players will still tire of it eventually and seek other content(Darkfall online). We really never got new appealing mechanics/features in games other than the same trope over the years.

    If developers could for instance truely add exploration and somehow get rid of online help guilds it would be a step in the right direction; many of use have become to dependant on quick google-fu when trying to make builds or solve quests. You just need to make sure they are fun, unlike say Secret world.

    That being said it might be near impossible to do something like this so the best option is niche mmorpgs designed for a playerbase in mind,but we all can dream of an ultra expansive, indepth mmorpg that caters to everyones playstyles while supplementing other ones.

    MurderHerd

  • OzmodanOzmodan Member EpicPosts: 9,696
    If anyone can come up with a scheme such as this, it is Koster.  
    Gdemami
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 35,982
    bcbully said:
    Kyleran said:
    bcbully said:
    cheyane said:
    Oh don't fall for the ruse, it is just his way of riling up the players that enjoy PvE. I doubt he honestly believes half of what he writes here because then it would be pathetic if he actually measures his success on winning games equating to the worth of a person. It would also indicate a serious lack of self worth. 

    Enjoy his barbs and just skip along like I do.
    I am simply speaking my truth.

     I will never forget being in a server first raid guild in WoW talking to an 1800 ranked arena player and telling him raiding was harder.

    A year later I was still raiding in now a world 300 guild ranking top 20 affliction warlock on world of logs. In addition I had become a 2700 rated affectionate lock in 3v3 arena.

    I understood how wrong I was when talking to that person a year prior. It easily took 500 hundred matches just to get used to the spread of arena. Easily another 500 to even care about rank and another 500 too get good.

    What I’m saying is I cannot stomach calling myself good when knowingly only playing 50% of a game. 

    Whatever it is I do it to the best of my ability, to be the best. I don’t get people who get killed in a game and it ruins their day. People who become traumatized from losing/failing People who do not try to be better. People who are ok with fallacies. 

    Aye it’s ok if you’re not like me, but please do not lie to yourself and call yourself good if you only give half the effort. 
    Humility isn't your long suit is it?

    In life I've often found the people who really were the best at something rarely felt the need to brag about it.

    Then there are the wannabes...


    And that’s your only take away?
    Of course not, you know I'm mostly reacting to your  >:) ing.

    ;)
    bcbully

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • tzervotzervo Member UncommonPosts: 216
    edited June 18
    cheyane said:

    Are posters bragging about how good they are? 
    ...
    I readily admit I suck at most games. I am not out to prove something to other people and definitely not in my advancing age  suffering from any delusions about how well I play. I play to have fun in the game and I'm not out to prove anything and I don't need to. I am proud of things I can accomplish with my meagre abilities. I do not need approval to enjoy a game at the level I can manage to play it. 
    That's a very healthy attitude but the problem is not people like you:

    - You have those that go to every OWPVP thread and shitpost the game just because it is OWPVP. They cowardly use those that sincerely do not like confrontation with other players as a shield, but this is not their motive.

    - Then you have those which go to PVP games that keep the two crowds separate but give better rewards to PVP players as a reward for the higher risk they take, and shitpost to those games because they are rewarding players "unfairly".

    - Then you have those that go to all games that have high difficulty PVE content like raids and shitpost these because they encourage "elitistic behaviour". They cowardly use people that sincerely want a more open world experience as a shield, but this is not their motive!

    - Then you have those that go and shitpost in games that have hard open world PVE content or that this content is rewarded better ("GW2 HoT is hard" cries immediately comes to mind).

    All these players want to prove they are good (or more accurately they don't want others to show that they are better) but they cannot. They could just go play a game suited to their taste but no:

    "The neighbour's goat must die."

    Gdemami
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,097
    I'm still a fan of Raph Koster and I think his approach to this new game is a good one. Like others in this thread, I am worried that the game might turn into a science experiment, but I am also hopeful that he has learnt that lesson from Metaverse.


    On the subject of trying to create an MMORPG for multiple playstyles, I am fully in support of that goal. In fact, I view it as essential for long term success. Why?


    First, humans are fickle! We struggle to concentrate on single tasks for any length of time, our moods change, as do our interests. If a game hopes to retain us for months or years, it needs to provide a variety of activities, otherwise we'll just quit when we inevitably get bored / burned out with the few activities that are there. Providing a bredth of activities will give us something to do and keep us in game for longer.


    Second, diverse communities are the strongest. This is true in real life as well as in mmos. One of the reasons for this (and this is a lesson Raph learned from UO) is that group identity is just as much about what you are opposed to as what you have in common. If you have a common enemy (PvPers) then your group (PvEers) will be stronger. Without that opposition, human beings will inevitably find faults within their own groups, resulting in less cohesion (and thus less retention for the game).


    Third, this is the massively multiplayer genre. The goal is to bring as many people together as possible and get them playing together. This is best facilitated by building a strong community where the members of that community feel comfortable playing together. Focusing on community, building those social bonds, not only makes good business sense but will improve the multiplayer aspect of the game.


    Finally, it just makes good business sense to make a game that can appeal to a very wide range of players. This is obviously based on the assumption that you can actually deliver features that are enjoyable to a wide range of players, which is far from a given. Plenty have tried and failed, but I think Raph managed to get pretty close to this in SWG, so he stands a better chance than most in achieving this goal.




    On the PvP front, I personally won't play an MMO unless it has PvP in it. However, I wouldn't worry about Raph putting in non-consenaul PvP (I also wouldn't play if the pvp was non-consensual). Raph spent years trying to figure out how to make it work in UO and couldn't, which is why SWG had flagging. Raph's already learnt his lesson on FFA PvP, so unless he's somehow figured out some genius way to make it work now, chances are the PvP will always be consensual. It is my hope (given the virtual world design) that the PvP will occur in the open world and not be instanced. So, yeh, im expecting another flagging system of some sort.
    IIRC, Koster argued against flagging for PVP in SWG, and it was installed over his objections.

    IF a game has non-consensual PvP, I won't spend money on it, unless it has some particularly interesting design.  I forked over the money for Crowfall, as I think they've got decent ideas.   Koster has a lot of ideas, but not convinced that his PvP paradigms will work.   We'll see.....
    Actually he was for it.  He debated some of us on the old SWG forums over it.  A lot of PvP were against it because of potential exploitation.
  • kitaradkitarad Member EpicPosts: 5,743
    edited June 18
    tzervo said:
    cheyane said:

    Are posters bragging about how good they are? 
    ...
    I readily admit I suck at most games. I am not out to prove something to other people and definitely not in my advancing age  suffering from any delusions about how well I play. I play to have fun in the game and I'm not out to prove anything and I don't need to. I am proud of things I can accomplish with my meagre abilities. I do not need approval to enjoy a game at the level I can manage to play it. 
    That's a very healthy attitude but the problem is not people like you:

    - You have those that go to every OWPVP thread and shitpost the game just because it is OWPVP. They cowardly use those that sincerely do not like confrontation with other players as a shield, but this is not their motive.

    - Then you have those which go to PVP games that keep the two crowds separate but give better rewards to PVP players as a reward for the higher risk they take, and shitpost to those games because they are rewarding players "unfairly".

    - Then you have those that go to all games that have high difficulty PVE content like raids and shitpost these because they encourage "elitistic behaviour". They cowardly use people that sincerely want a more open world experience as a shield, but this is not their motive!

    - Then you have those that go and shitpost in games that have hard open world PVE content or that this content is rewarded better ("GW2 HoT is hard" cries immediately comes to mind).

    All these players want to prove they are good (or more accurately they don't want others to show that they are better) but they cannot. They could just go play a game suited to their taste but no:

    "The neighbour's goat must die."

    Those people don't have any power if the developers aren't swayed by them.

    The thing is developers keep trying to have the cake and eat it too. They want a wider audience for their game and they hold out promises they cannot keep because they have no control over the players. So why do that when you know as a developer you are not going to be able to please both sides.

    Instead you encourage players to play your game and then when those players find they are unhappy with how the game is and complain about it, as a developer fearful of losing your player base you change it.

    Now tell me who is to blame here. I never saw the Dark Souls developers make their game easier. They stuck to the vision they had.

    If you are indeed developing a game for the hardcore PvP crowd then fuck it all and stick to your bloody plan and not change it at the first sign that you're losing your players in a beta. I don't blame the consumer I blame the developer. 

    Don't try to place the blame on the players when developers even right here in this thread try to cater to every type of player and thereby in the end pleasing none.

    As a player who is going to spend their time, money and effort in the game they have every right to try and change things to suit them. It is up to the developer to resist them. Most don't and end up straddling the fence holding out hope to the type of players ill suited to the game. In the end you get a watered down version no one is interested in to play. Case in point is New World.
    KyleranGdemamiAlBQuirkyScot

  • kitaradkitarad Member EpicPosts: 5,743
    edited June 18
    I'm still a fan of Raph Koster and I think his approach to this new game is a good one. Like others in this thread, I am worried that the game might turn into a science experiment, but I am also hopeful that he has learnt that lesson from Metaverse.


    On the subject of trying to create an MMORPG for multiple playstyles, I am fully in support of that goal. In fact, I view it as essential for long term success. Why?


    First, humans are fickle! We struggle to concentrate on single tasks for any length of time, our moods change, as do our interests. If a game hopes to retain us for months or years, it needs to provide a variety of activities, otherwise we'll just quit when we inevitably get bored / burned out with the few activities that are there. Providing a bredth of activities will give us something to do and keep us in game for longer.


    Second, diverse communities are the strongest. This is true in real life as well as in mmos. One of the reasons for this (and this is a lesson Raph learned from UO) is that group identity is just as much about what you are opposed to as what you have in common. If you have a common enemy (PvPers) then your group (PvEers) will be stronger. Without that opposition, human beings will inevitably find faults within their own groups, resulting in less cohesion (and thus less retention for the game).


    Third, this is the massively multiplayer genre. The goal is to bring as many people together as possible and get them playing together. This is best facilitated by building a strong community where the members of that community feel comfortable playing together. Focusing on community, building those social bonds, not only makes good business sense but will improve the multiplayer aspect of the game.


    Finally, it just makes good business sense to make a game that can appeal to a very wide range of players. This is obviously based on the assumption that you can actually deliver features that are enjoyable to a wide range of players, which is far from a given. Plenty have tried and failed, but I think Raph managed to get pretty close to this in SWG, so he stands a better chance than most in achieving this goal.




    On the PvP front, I personally won't play an MMO unless it has PvP in it. However, I wouldn't worry about Raph putting in non-consenaul PvP (I also wouldn't play if the pvp was non-consensual). Raph spent years trying to figure out how to make it work in UO and couldn't, which is why SWG had flagging. Raph's already learnt his lesson on FFA PvP, so unless he's somehow figured out some genius way to make it work now, chances are the PvP will always be consensual. It is my hope (given the virtual world design) that the PvP will occur in the open world and not be instanced. So, yeh, im expecting another flagging system of some sort.
    IIRC, Koster argued against flagging for PVP in SWG, and it was installed over his objections.

    IF a game has non-consensual PvP, I won't spend money on it, unless it has some particularly interesting design.  I forked over the money for Crowfall, as I think they've got decent ideas.   Koster has a lot of ideas, but not convinced that his PvP paradigms will work.   We'll see.....
    Actually he was for it.  He debated some of us on the old SWG forums over it.  A lot of PvP were against it because of potential exploitation.
    https://www.raphkoster.com/2015/04/15/star-wars-galaxies-tefs/

    "TEF stands for Temporary Enemy Flagging. We knew when doing a Star Wars game that we needed to be able to account for the scenarios in the movies. This makes for a tricky problem: after all, we saw Luke clearly pick sides, Han only sort of do so at first, both of them ended up wearing Stormtrooper armor to hide, someone like Lando actually switched sides kinda, and all sorts of other ambiguous situations that don’t lend themselves well to a straightforward system where you declared for one side or the other at the start and were done.

    On top of that, we knew that PvP was, well, fatiguing. Given that we were limiting each account to having a single character (for lots of reasons, including PvP, actually),  making players have to pick a side, never change, and be always vulnerable, felt like a big ask. The spirit of the game was all about changing your character up over time, and trying new things, so a system of permanent choice for PvP felt wrong.

    Lastly, something that I think people have forgotten, in these days of DayZ, Rust, and H1Z1, is how much there was a general aversion to PvP. Ultima Online had had a big issue with playerkillers marauding around, and had famously cloned the map and simply made a non-PvP “dimension.” EverQuest was philosophically opposed to it — it was a feature, but really barely present in terms of the game consciousness.

    When we were sharing design thoughts on SWG (something which we did extensively, to a degree that even games today rarely do), I posted up a very clear statement on the forums that runaway PKing was simply not going to be a feature of Galaxies.

    I still believe many things. I still believe that we can find ways to allow players to police their environment. I still believe that this can open up the way to many extremely cool features new to these sorts of games. And I am continuing to work towards having these many features: real battles of territory. Player governments with actual importance and consequence. Player communities that are refined and defined via conflict and struggle so that their battles MEAN something. Real emotions–yes, even including fear and shame, because this is a medium like any other art medium, and its expressive (and impositional!) power is amazing and worthy of exploration. I believe that virtually every player can try PvP and enjoy it, if it is designed correctly, and that it adds great richness to the online gaming experience.

    But I do not want to ever disappoint people in that way again. People will come to SWG for those things, and I do not want them to discover that they cannot stay and enjoy them because the very freedoms which allow those cool, innovative, exciting features, also allow d00dspeaking giggly jerks to dance roughshod jigs on their virtual corpses.

    So am I willing to make compromises in “realism” (a radically overvalued thing in game design, frankly) to make sure that SWG remains someplace where most everybody can feel welcome?

    You betcha.''

    He didn't argue against as you can clearly read his reasoning here.

  • tzervotzervo Member UncommonPosts: 216
    edited June 18
    kitarad said:
    Now tell me who is to blame here. I never saw the Dark Souls developers make their game easier. They stuck to the vision they had.
    ...
    Don't try to place the blame on the players when developers even right here in this thread try to cater to every type of player and thereby in the end pleasing none.
    I agree with you on the above. Devs flip flopping while trying to satisfy everyone end up screwing their initial design and vision at the last moment before release and reap the failure. If a game is indeed good it will shine, regardless of the difficulty, see Dark Souls.
    kitarad said:
    Those people don't have any power if the developers aren't swayed by them.
    ...
    As a player who is going to spend their time, money and effort in the game they have every right to try and change things to suit them.
    I disagree with you on this. Those that go to every thread of every game that they cannot handle (and that they haven't bought into) to trash it are just petty. And they often use a powerful tool: slander and misinformation. They have no "right" for that, they just do it because they can (hmm, don't they usually accuse griefers and trolls for that? :-) ). I even saw a guy trashing a game in this site recently for being OWPVP, even though it had a PVE mode with no difference in content from the PVP mode.

    A gamer that really loves a game's features but strongly disagrees with one aspect (PVP, instances, difficulty etc) will go and express his/her displeasure to that single game, hoping to get it closer to his taste. The petty jealous ones will go to all games that they cannot handle to trash them. You can easily tell them apart.
    SovrathbcbullyAlBQuirky
  • kitaradkitarad Member EpicPosts: 5,743
    edited June 18
    tzervo said:
    kitarad said:
    Now tell me who is to blame here. I never saw the Dark Souls developers make their game easier. They stuck to the vision they had.
    ...
    Don't try to place the blame on the players when developers even right here in this thread try to cater to every type of player and thereby in the end pleasing none.
    I agree with you on the above. Devs flip flopping while trying to satisfy everyone end up screwing their initial design and vision at the last moment before release and reap the failure. If a game is indeed good it will shine, regardless of the difficulty, see Dark Souls.
    kitarad said:
    Those people don't have any power if the developers aren't swayed by them.
    ...
    As a player who is going to spend their time, money and effort in the game they have every right to try and change things to suit them.
    I disagree with you on this. Those that go to every thread of every game that they cannot handle (and that they haven't bought into) to trash it are just petty. And they often use a powerful tool: slander and misinformation. They have no "right" for that, they just do it because they can (hmm, don't they usually accuse griefers and trolls for that? :-) ). I even saw a guy trashing a game in this site recently for being OWPVP, even though it had a PVE mode with no difference in content from the PVP mode.

    A gamer that really loves a game's features but strongly disagrees with one aspect (PVP, instances, difficulty etc) will go and express his/her displeasure to that single game, hoping to get it closer to his taste. The petty jealous ones will go to all games that they cannot handle to trash them. You can easily tell them apart.
    Really, there are people like that. I have neither the time nor the inclination to follow the forums of games I have no interest in.

    Surely those posters cannot be attracting so much attention and if they do what type of community do these games have that they are unable to rebut them. Perhaps the communities of these games should try to engage the developers in dialogue and ultimately whatever changes are made are within the purview of the developer. These obnoxious individuals' efforts would be nought but for the frailty of the developers.

    If the developers are constantly falling for these tricks you might be better off supporting other developers. It is also indicative that there is something rotten to the core if they succumb so easily.

    If the PvP community in a game is unable to weather these attacks on the very foundation of their game perhaps they should spend more time learning guerrilla tactics. Get organised and threaten to quit support en masse.  Fight fire with fire and hope everything does not get burnt to a crisp in the process.


    tzervoAlBQuirky

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