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New Raph Koster game tries to please everyone?

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  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 35,982
    Scot said:
    Amathe said:
    Raph will have 3 new ideas at a time. One great, one bad, and one silly. All three end up in the game. You have to make your own judgment about that.
    The good, the bad and the ugly? :)

    SovrathAlBQuirkyachesomaTheocritusBeatnik59

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,175
    Nowhere have they said that their idea of co-existence is OWPvP. A game like DAoC had something for all types of player as well as interdependence.

    I think you guys are letting your imagination and bias run wild based on some pretty generic pre-production statements.

    All we really know is that Raph and Co. have an MMO in the works and that even the most rudimentary details won't be revealed until sometime next year.

    If you want to be critical at this stage criticize announcing a future announcement because that's all we have so far.
    tzervoAlBQuirkyVermillion_RaventhalMadFrenchieMendel
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,102
    bcbully said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    Amathe said:
    Raph needs to stop by a tropical fish store and read up on community fish versus aggressive fish. Put them in a tank together and it's pure carnage.
    But it's probably great fun for the aggressive fish, until there are no more community fish left.
    That's when they are forced to fight people that actually want to PvP, in which case is too much trouble and then the game dies.
    That’s what people who are bad at the game tell themselves so the can sleep at night...

    I find I have little trouble getting to sleep knowing I suck at video games. It really isn't that high on my "life goals" list. Actually, it's not there at all. hmmm....  :lol:
    Amathetzervodelete5230KyleranWhiteLanternRhoklaw

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • anemoanemo Member RarePosts: 1,887
    I could totally see something like a 16 player 1v1 dueling bracket, that has the same level of reward as a 16 man raid for players.  (You're going to need to keep up with a meta, expend resources like one time use consumables, and you're probably going to spend the same amount of time as a raid most likely).

    You can even fully integrate that into a game.  Where those duel rankings end up increasing how fast a guild keep (land plot) can advance, while solo gathering PvE builds the keep, and grouped PvE raids ends up determining which bluffs the guild activates.

    And that's barely even trying to design something that forcefully integrate play styles that are normally opposed.

    Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.

    "At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."

  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 1,816
    Amathe said:
    Raph needs to stop by a tropical fish store and read up on community fish versus aggressive fish. Put them in a tank together and it's pure carnage.
    But they all live fine in the same pet store.
    "Wake up, It's RNG, there is no such thing as 'rare'"
    - Ungood
  • BrotherMaynardBrotherMaynard Member UncommonPosts: 165
    Ut oh, here we go again:  "Koster also seeks to make the game someplace where explorers, player killers, socializers, and killers can co-exist or even find some interdependencies."


  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,097
    Iselin said:
    Nowhere have they said that their idea of co-existence is OWPvP. A game like DAoC had something for all types of player as well as interdependence.

    I think you guys are letting your imagination and bias run wild based on some pretty generic pre-production statements.

    All we really know is that Raph and Co. have an MMO in the works and that even the most rudimentary details won't be revealed until sometime next year.

    If you want to be critical at this stage criticize announcing a future announcement because that's all we have so far.
    I believe as well. So many complain about the same old games then when something new comes complain it's too different. Complain before they even know anything.  But let's not get in the way of quest level loot games we have had for the past 15 years.

    My ideals of MMORPG mostly align with much of what he has done. Have to see where he is trying to take his game.

  • ArglebargleArglebargle Member RarePosts: 2,777
    I'm still a fan of Raph Koster and I think his approach to this new game is a good one. Like others in this thread, I am worried that the game might turn into a science experiment, but I am also hopeful that he has learnt that lesson from Metaverse.


    On the subject of trying to create an MMORPG for multiple playstyles, I am fully in support of that goal. In fact, I view it as essential for long term success. Why?


    First, humans are fickle! We struggle to concentrate on single tasks for any length of time, our moods change, as do our interests. If a game hopes to retain us for months or years, it needs to provide a variety of activities, otherwise we'll just quit when we inevitably get bored / burned out with the few activities that are there. Providing a bredth of activities will give us something to do and keep us in game for longer.


    Second, diverse communities are the strongest. This is true in real life as well as in mmos. One of the reasons for this (and this is a lesson Raph learned from UO) is that group identity is just as much about what you are opposed to as what you have in common. If you have a common enemy (PvPers) then your group (PvEers) will be stronger. Without that opposition, human beings will inevitably find faults within their own groups, resulting in less cohesion (and thus less retention for the game).


    Third, this is the massively multiplayer genre. The goal is to bring as many people together as possible and get them playing together. This is best facilitated by building a strong community where the members of that community feel comfortable playing together. Focusing on community, building those social bonds, not only makes good business sense but will improve the multiplayer aspect of the game.


    Finally, it just makes good business sense to make a game that can appeal to a very wide range of players. This is obviously based on the assumption that you can actually deliver features that are enjoyable to a wide range of players, which is far from a given. Plenty have tried and failed, but I think Raph managed to get pretty close to this in SWG, so he stands a better chance than most in achieving this goal.




    On the PvP front, I personally won't play an MMO unless it has PvP in it. However, I wouldn't worry about Raph putting in non-consenaul PvP (I also wouldn't play if the pvp was non-consensual). Raph spent years trying to figure out how to make it work in UO and couldn't, which is why SWG had flagging. Raph's already learnt his lesson on FFA PvP, so unless he's somehow figured out some genius way to make it work now, chances are the PvP will always be consensual. It is my hope (given the virtual world design) that the PvP will occur in the open world and not be instanced. So, yeh, im expecting another flagging system of some sort.
    IIRC, Koster argued against flagging for PVP in SWG, and it was installed over his objections.

    IF a game has non-consensual PvP, I won't spend money on it, unless it has some particularly interesting design.  I forked over the money for Crowfall, as I think they've got decent ideas.   Koster has a lot of ideas, but not convinced that his PvP paradigms will work.   We'll see.....
    bcbully

    If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  • RhoklawRhoklaw Member EpicPosts: 6,958
    bcbully said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    Amathe said:
    Raph needs to stop by a tropical fish store and read up on community fish versus aggressive fish. Put them in a tank together and it's pure carnage.
    But it's probably great fun for the aggressive fish, until there are no more community fish left.
    That's when they are forced to fight people that actually want to PvP, in which case is too much trouble and then the game dies.
    That’s what people who are bad at the game tell themselves so the can sleep at night...
    Being forced to do something you may not enjoy in order to enjoy something else is not being bad at a game, it's being bad at game design.
    bcbullyKyleranGdemamiAlBQuirky

  • TillerTiller Member EpicPosts: 8,675
    edited June 16
    I've been around long enough to remember the last game he did, Metaplace. We saw this same type hype around it too, what a disappointment that was sadly. It may truly be his "Holiday Special" at this point. The concept seemed cool, but it was trying to be too many things at once.  Eitherway I hope he is successful, but not holding my breath.
     



    SWG Bloodfin vet
    Elder Jedi/Elder Bounty Hunter
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    Wild to come back and see so many users still fighting the same little crusades they were fighting before.

    image
  • OG_ZorvanOG_Zorvan Member EpicPosts: 2,175
    Raph Koster is no different from Richard Garriott, except that Garriott has managed to put our more than one failure and Raph is probably afraid of phlebotomy needles. I remain unconvinced there will be anything other than a large waste of other people's money and some good train wreck footage to gawk at.


    MMORPG.COM took away my swinging cheerleader butt .gif.

  • Hawkaya399Hawkaya399 Member UncommonPosts: 541
    Ut oh, here we go again:  "Koster also seeks to make the game someplace where explorers, player killers, socializers, and killers can co-exist or even find some interdependencies."

    If they plan to put PK directly in the mix with everyone else, it will be a mess, as always.  Hopefully, PvP will be completely optional.

    What is "killers" as a playing style, anyway ?


    Probably what's traditionally known as achievers. These're players who like to gain levels, acquire wealth or power in the game.
    bcbully
  • Hawkaya399Hawkaya399 Member UncommonPosts: 541
    edited June 16
    Rhoklaw said:
    bcbully said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    Amathe said:
    Raph needs to stop by a tropical fish store and read up on community fish versus aggressive fish. Put them in a tank together and it's pure carnage.
    But it's probably great fun for the aggressive fish, until there are no more community fish left.
    That's when they are forced to fight people that actually want to PvP, in which case is too much trouble and then the game dies.
    That’s what people who are bad at the game tell themselves so the can sleep at night...
    Being forced to do something you may not enjoy in order to enjoy something else is not being bad at a game, it's being bad at game design.

    Some people are looking for more th8an just a game. For making a game your advise is wise.
    Post edited by Hawkaya399 on
    bcbully
  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 10,117
    edited June 16
    bcbully said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    Amathe said:
    Raph needs to stop by a tropical fish store and read up on community fish versus aggressive fish. Put them in a tank together and it's pure carnage.
    But it's probably great fun for the aggressive fish, until there are no more community fish left.
    That's when they are forced to fight people that actually want to PvP, in which case is too much trouble and then the game dies.
    That’s what people who are bad at the game tell themselves so the can sleep at night...

    I find I have little trouble getting to sleep knowing I suck at video games. It really isn't that high on my "life goals" list. Actually, it's not there at all. hmmm....  :lol:
    Some people are winners some are losers. 

    Tiddlywinks to women. There’s something in me, if I’m doing it I gotta win it. 

    “You’ll never understand I used be you then I evolved” 
     ;) 
    ScotKyleranAlBQuirky
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 12,883
    edited June 16
    Any of us who have played a few MMOs know you cannot appeal to every kind of MMO player equally and that certain playstyles are antagonistic to others. I am not just talking about PvE and PvP, crafters and those who don't craft are problematic. Crafters want the best gear to be crafted, those who don't craft want loot drops to be excellent, raiders want raid gear to be tops and PVPers don't like it when their gear is only best for PvP.

    You simply cannot fully please everyone, admit that and players will be on side. You can mitigate certain issues, RvR does that for PvE and PvP as far I am concerned. But there are no perfect solutions or la-la land MMOs where we can all get together and play the exact gameplay play we all want to play.
    tzervoGdemamiKyleranRemaliAlBQuirky

     25 Agrees

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  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,391
    bcbully said:
    bcbully said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    Amathe said:
    Raph needs to stop by a tropical fish store and read up on community fish versus aggressive fish. Put them in a tank together and it's pure carnage.
    But it's probably great fun for the aggressive fish, until there are no more community fish left.
    That's when they are forced to fight people that actually want to PvP, in which case is too much trouble and then the game dies.
    That’s what people who are bad at the game tell themselves so the can sleep at night...

    I find I have little trouble getting to sleep knowing I suck at video games. It really isn't that high on my "life goals" list. Actually, it's not there at all. hmmm....  :lol:
    Some people are winners some are losers. 

    Tiddlywinks to women. There’s something in me, if I’m doing it I gotta win it. 

    “You’ll never understand I used be you then I evolved” 
     ;) 
    PvP sucks
    bcbullyScotAzaron_Nightblade
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 35,982
    bcbully said:
    bcbully said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    Amathe said:
    Raph needs to stop by a tropical fish store and read up on community fish versus aggressive fish. Put them in a tank together and it's pure carnage.
    But it's probably great fun for the aggressive fish, until there are no more community fish left.
    That's when they are forced to fight people that actually want to PvP, in which case is too much trouble and then the game dies.
    That’s what people who are bad at the game tell themselves so the can sleep at night...

    I find I have little trouble getting to sleep knowing I suck at video games. It really isn't that high on my "life goals" list. Actually, it's not there at all. hmmm....  :lol:
    Some people are winners some are losers. 

    Tiddlywinks to women. There’s something in me, if I’m doing it I gotta win it. 

    “You’ll never understand I used be you then I evolved” 
     ;) 
    ”No matter how badass you think you are, there is always a badass bigger than you. –Amir” from the recent Bollywood movie Extraction.
    bcbully

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • cheyanecheyane Member EpicPosts: 7,026
    bcbully said:
    bcbully said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    Amathe said:
    Raph needs to stop by a tropical fish store and read up on community fish versus aggressive fish. Put them in a tank together and it's pure carnage.
    But it's probably great fun for the aggressive fish, until there are no more community fish left.
    That's when they are forced to fight people that actually want to PvP, in which case is too much trouble and then the game dies.
    That’s what people who are bad at the game tell themselves so the can sleep at night...

    I find I have little trouble getting to sleep knowing I suck at video games. It really isn't that high on my "life goals" list. Actually, it's not there at all. hmmm....  :lol:
    Some people are winners some are losers. 

    Tiddlywinks to women. There’s something in me, if I’m doing it I gotta win it. 

    “You’ll never understand I used be you then I evolved” 
     ;) 
    You should take up tatting.
    bcbullyOG_Zorvankitarad
    image
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,391
    bcbully said:
    bcbully said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    Amathe said:
    Raph needs to stop by a tropical fish store and read up on community fish versus aggressive fish. Put them in a tank together and it's pure carnage.
    But it's probably great fun for the aggressive fish, until there are no more community fish left.
    That's when they are forced to fight people that actually want to PvP, in which case is too much trouble and then the game dies.
    That’s what people who are bad at the game tell themselves so the can sleep at night...

    I find I have little trouble getting to sleep knowing I suck at video games. It really isn't that high on my "life goals" list. Actually, it's not there at all. hmmm....  :lol:
    Some people are winners some are losers. 

    Tiddlywinks to women. There’s something in me, if I’m doing it I gotta win it. 

    “You’ll never understand I used be you then I evolved” 
     ;) 
    I take it, your talking about PvP since you always promote PvP. 

    Not too sure how serious you are on a scale of 1>10, but I'm willing to bet your an 8 with your statement "Some are winners and some are losers".  


    Realistically,
    By far most people believe playing video games are an unhealthy way of life.  Many would somewhat approve if kept in perspective....... I have to be careful who I tell I play video games because the conversation could turn embarrassing and I'll have NO JUSTIFICATION for my counter argument.  

    Even within my self I sometimes feel embarrassed when I play too long or gloat to much over a prize.  But their is something sick in saying "some people are winners and some are losers".

    For me playing video games at times in an unhealthy way is one thing, but this statement brings it to a new level..... But then again to each their own. 
  • cheyanecheyane Member EpicPosts: 7,026
    Oh don't fall for the ruse, it is just his way of riling up the players that enjoy PvE. I doubt he honestly believes half of what he writes here because then it would be pathetic if he actually measures his success on winning games equating to the worth of a person. It would also indicate a serious lack of self worth. 

    Enjoy his barbs and just skip along like I do.
    delete5230AlBQuirkyOG_ZorvankitaradAzaron_Nightblade
    image
  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 4,411
    Hmm ok there seems to be no consensus to what Killers even refers to.
    Please set a sig so I can read your posting even if somebody "agreed" etc with it. Thanks.
  • RhoklawRhoklaw Member EpicPosts: 6,958
    And PvPers wonder why their games keep failing 90% of the time. It's not the game, it's the shit community they attract.
    delete5230OG_Zorvankitarad

  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 4,411
    Scot said:
    Any of us who have played a few MMOs know you cannot appeal to every kind of MMO player equally and that certain playstyles are antagonistic to others. I am not just talking about PvE and PvP, crafters and those who don't craft are problematic. Crafters want the best gear to be crafted, those who don't craft want loot drops to be excellent, raiders want raid gear to be tops and PVPers don't like it when their gear is only best for PvP.

    You simply cannot fully please everyone, admit that and players will be on side. You can mitigate certain issues, RvR does that for PvE and PvP as far I am concerned. But there are no perfect solutions or la-la land MMOs where we can all get together and play the exact gameplay play we all want to play.
    Well, I cant speak for others but I always felt that if you have multiphe spheres available,  that every sphere should give you a decent set of equipment, but to have the best, you will need all of them.

    So if your game for example has raiding, adventuring, and crafting, you can get a good set of gear from each of them, but for the best of the best equipment you will have to pursue all three areas.

    About crafting, I think my approach would be to make standard crafting easy accessible. If you want to be an expert crafter however you will have to invest a lot of time, and you will only be great in one area. So for example the master weaponsmith cannot also be the master armorsmith.

    Please set a sig so I can read your posting even if somebody "agreed" etc with it. Thanks.
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 7,467
    Kyleran said:
    Scot said:
    Amathe said:
    Raph will have 3 new ideas at a time. One great, one bad, and one silly. All three end up in the game. You have to make your own judgment about that.
    The good, the bad and the ugly? :)


    Clint Eastwood gets an awesome every time....Well done!
    AlBQuirky
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