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Mastery and Codex explained better.

delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,447

Honestly I was getting the Perception system and the Mastery system confused, so in search I found this newer video. 

Seems Bazgrim did it again,

On May 11th he made another video explaining the Mastery system better than Joppa.  It's not that Joppa is bad but he gives too many unneeded details and goes off on tangents (boring).  After this video and many others I subscribed to his channel.  "I'll use it for all things Pantheon".  Some things seem lacking from Visionary Realms… They somehow need better Public Relations.  Bazgrims explanations, videos and enthusiasm always gives me more hope and excitement for the game. 

Anyway watch this:


Post edited by delete5230 on
Amathe
«1

Comments

  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,159
    A skill rank system that you customize, with a GW1 type system where you have to go out and find some of the better skills, that over time evolves into EQ-like AA. Pretty clever.
    delete5230

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • TwoTubesTwoTubes Member UncommonPosts: 232
    Be careful about info you get from bazgrim.  He has a tendency to spin things in a way that is sometimes not entirely accurate.
    I think he does it to try to put a positive spin on things even if it ends up not being correct.
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,642
    I find it difficult that the devs often find it difficult to explain exactly what they are doing.I was reading the other day something  that kind of flew past me in the past.They mentioned the "economy"will largely be player driven,why wouldn't it be 100% player driven,what does that mean,a cash shop?

    So we notice a lot of games since the inception of Smedley's cash shop gaming years ago,they like to sell a separate real world currency that does directly relate to the IN GAME currency and can VERY much ruin a game's economy.

    This team struggles just to explain "camps"so yeah it's frustrating,it is like idk are they trying to hide something,why do they struggle with their own ideas?

    The reason WHY it is tough for us as onlookers is two fold,one nobody in the media asks the right questions,the media is only there for themselves.Two gamer's the REAL people that matter never get to TALK to the devs,the best we ever get is a "posta question in Twitch"or something like that.

    What is the purpose of hiring community managers if all they do is try and post good PR,they should be re titled into PR managers rather than community reps.CM's SHOULD be a direct link to the team,there should be back n forth dialogue rather than tryign to GUESS what is going on.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,642
    "CODEX"
    First of all when i mention things it is based off of real gaming experiences inside of mmorpgs as well more specific having played all 3 EQ type games 1/2 and VG.

    One of the worst things that happens in grouping games is "specific"things that can segregate players to the point of even getting a group.It is part of the reason i DETEST ideas like FF and Wow are doing with item level gear.

    They have to be careful with this codex idea that there isn't choices in there that can leave a player out when groups are formed.Example questions will arrive....Do you have so and so ability....answer NO i didn't choose that one,ok sorry we can't use you.

    SO what i "assume"is this codex idea is going to be bad.WHY do i say bad,well of course i can only guess what is going to happen but i am fairly certain what will happen.They are going to FORCE you to get a group to do a specific dungeon or clear an area to get your specific "BEST of spell or ability".I assume this because they stated they will be HIDING for example a "wise Sage".

    Forcing OTHERS to cater to YOUR needs is bad for the game,again it works among FRIENDS or static but not with pugs or others.
    achesomadelete5230

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • TwoTubesTwoTubes Member UncommonPosts: 232
    edited June 6
    That is why they are allowing easy attribute mastery respec.  To minimize or negate that situation you describe...even though there seems to be a large push back on the forum about allowing respecs.
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,642
    Hmm you know that is very good to hear ,it actually makes me happy they are looking at all the angles and the issues that can arise.
    I would   definitely be on board with respec because it can be a serious issue if you couldn't.

    I am still worried about how they implement the so called hidden wise Sage ro whatever it ends up being.I am not in favor of forcing a group or a raid to get said spell ability.

    My vague memory recalls some sort of impasse in EQ2 where you had to solo something,i am ok for that because then you can do it whenever you want.
    You see grouping is finebecause all members are attaining the same value from the group.However having to bother others to get your particular Codex doesn't sound like a good idea.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • Mylan12Mylan12 Member UncommonPosts: 275
    Wizardry said:
    I find it difficult that the devs often find it difficult to explain exactly what they are doing.I was reading the other day something  that kind of flew past me in the past.They mentioned the "economy"will largely be player driven,why wouldn't it be 100% player driven,what does that mean,a cash shop?

    So we notice a lot of games since the inception of Smedley's cash shop gaming years ago,they like to sell a separate real world currency that does directly relate to the IN GAME currency and can VERY much ruin a game's economy.

    This team struggles just to explain "camps"so yeah it's frustrating,it is like idk are they trying to hide something,why do they struggle with their own ideas?

    The reason WHY it is tough for us as onlookers is two fold,one nobody in the media asks the right questions,the media is only there for themselves.Two gamer's the REAL people that matter never get to TALK to the devs,the best we ever get is a "posta question in Twitch"or something like that.

    What is the purpose of hiring community managers if all they do is try and post good PR,they should be re titled into PR managers rather than community reps.CM's SHOULD be a direct link to the team,there should be back n forth dialogue rather than tryign to GUESS what is going on.


    They did ok on explaining the camp issue but its clear they will not decided exactly how to handle it until they have play tested out ideas.  They are taking about camps like in early EQ which were for the most part one of two types:
     (1) Camps for experience almost always a single group type activity and not usually a big problem.
     (2) Camps for a specific rare item that only drops from a rare spawn. These can be solo or group events and can become an issue.

    Player run economy means what it has always meant. Most items that players want or need will be provided by other players and the price will be set by demand and these other players. This is opposed to selling most items on NPC whose prices is set by the programmers. This was the way it was before the cash shops of course and the massive gold sellers, both of whom cause inflation in an economy that is otherwise trying to be player run.

    They tend to explain some things in reference to early EQ and some times Vanguard and I guess if you have no experience with either of those then perhaps it can hard to follow at times.
     
  • rounnerrounner Member UncommonPosts: 712
    Wizardry said:
    "CODEX"
    First of all when i mention things it is based off of real gaming experiences inside of mmorpgs as well more specific having played all 3 EQ type games 1/2 and VG.

    One of the worst things that happens in grouping games is "specific"things that can segregate players to the point of even getting a group.It is part of the reason i DETEST ideas like FF and Wow are doing with item level gear.

    They have to be careful with this codex idea that there isn't choices in there that can leave a player out when groups are formed.Example questions will arrive....Do you have so and so ability....answer NO i didn't choose that one,ok sorry we can't use you.

    SO what i "assume"is this codex idea is going to be bad.WHY do i say bad,well of course i can only guess what is going to happen but i am fairly certain what will happen.They are going to FORCE you to get a group to do a specific dungeon or clear an area to get your specific "BEST of spell or ability".I assume this because they stated they will be HIDING for example a "wise Sage".

    Forcing OTHERS to cater to YOUR needs is bad for the game,again it works among FRIENDS or static but not with pugs or others.
    All technically difficult games min max, even EQ and VG. If there is a best in slot, then you will be judged based on if you have it. If there is a better rotation than the one you use, you will be asked to use it (you may be invited only for a specific skill, like VG Sorcerer dispel, or a VG necro just for the buff). If there is a build that is considered superior you will be expected to use it.

    If you are competing in a team then the team will want to have some say in how you play. The most extreme example would be the only healer class in a team wants to DPS or the only tank class wants to heal; you're in a team you need to do whats best for the team. I mean, do you want to kill the end boss or not?

    In Rift the average team would have several tank and heal options because classes are softer and the trinity is softer. EQ and VG are hard role games, players play a role. Soft roles are a slope towards bum rush gameplay or just dps zerg fests. If Pantheon went that route I would not play it.

    A caveat is though, a team you know can give you the chance to prove yourself if you have an unusual build like WOW classic Moonkin. You need to find a Guild that will give you this chance above any other thing you do. Finding a good team isn't just a side quest, it is THE quest.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    edited June 6
    The most relevant and informative parts of that video regarding mastery, were literally clips of Joppa explaining the details. As always, Bazgrim did a great job assembling those conversations, but ultimately the explanation was straight from the developer's mouth...
    Post edited by Dullahan on
    Raidan_EQ


  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,135
    Dullahan said:
    The most relevant and informative parts of that video regarding mastery, were literally clips of Joppa explaining the details. As always, Bazgrim did a great job assembling those conversations, but ultimately the explanation was straight from the developer's mouth...
    Haven't watched the video, so I'll have to ask, did it actually show any of the decribed content or was it just mostly words about what was going to happen ”someday."

    Seems like most Pantheon videos are all talk with little action.....





    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,447
    Kyleran said:
    Dullahan said:
    The most relevant and informative parts of that video regarding mastery, were literally clips of Joppa explaining the details. As always, Bazgrim did a great job assembling those conversations, but ultimately the explanation was straight from the developer's mouth...
    Haven't watched the video, so I'll have to ask, did it actually show any of the decribed content or was it just mostly words about what was going to happen ”someday."

    Seems like most Pantheon videos are all talk with little action.....





    If you watched the video, it would hold your attention MUCH MORE than VR's version. More impotent it is much more informative.  Infact I skipped the parts where he flashes to Joppas explanations...... And realize HOW BORING JOPPA IS !!!   

    Only now do I understand the Mastery system.


  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,135
    edited June 7
    Kyleran said:
    Dullahan said:
    The most relevant and informative parts of that video regarding mastery, were literally clips of Joppa explaining the details. As always, Bazgrim did a great job assembling those conversations, but ultimately the explanation was straight from the developer's mouth...
    Haven't watched the video, so I'll have to ask, did it actually show any of the decribed content or was it just mostly words about what was going to happen ”someday."

    Seems like most Pantheon videos are all talk with little action.....





    If you watched the video, it would hold your attention MUCH MORE than VR's version. More impotent it is much more informative.  Infact I skipped the parts where he flashes to Joppas explanations...... And realize HOW BORING JOPPA IS !!!   

    Only now do I understand the Mastery system.


    I don't want to "understand” the Mastery system, rather I want to see it in action, how it actually impacts a players gameplay experience.

    I'm guessing there wasn't too much of this, mostly just words describing what it will be like.... ”someday,” right?
    delete5230

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • achesomaachesoma Member RarePosts: 1,224
    Joppa keeps mentioning how there isn't class "specializations" then proceeds to describe the mastery system as a way to specialize your character. So here they give us 2 systems(mastery and perception) that are both barriers to grouping in a game that's supposedly so focused on group-centric gameplay. 

    delete5230Kyleran
    Image result for pantheon mmo banners
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,447
    edited June 8
    How I see the Mastery system is that you have to work for your abilities for a given class instead of gain by leveling (vender,quest,drops)..... This is it in a nut shell.

    It's like playing Classic WoW as a Mage and have to find your fireball ability.  




    What's disappointing to me is I assumed Mastery abilities were "general purpose" to ANY CLASS, but hard to get.  One example would be "detect aggro range" where if found a Paladin or a Rogue or Cleric could use it above and beyond their own abilities. 

    Putting it a different way.... Given enough time in the game any one or any class could find most "general purpose" abilities and become a powerful asset for groups.  Very rare hard to acquire.

    This would greatly set Pantheon apart from other games as a feature.  However it only works for your own abilities for your class. 



    So much for assuming.  I guess I made this feature up on my own, I disappointed myself  :o
    Post edited by delete5230 on
  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 4,428
    Well an economy thats not player driven is one in which a player can buy and sell, but cannot buy and sell from other players  at all.

    So if somebody says their economy isnt fully player driven, that means you can sell stuff to and from NPCs as well as to and from other players.

    Pretty much what Vanguard had. I never played EQ but I guess that also had that.

    Please set a sig so I can read your posting even if somebody "agreed" etc with it. Thanks.
  • BazgrimTVBazgrimTV Member UncommonPosts: 25
    edited June 17
    TwoTubes said:
    Be careful about info you get from bazgrim.  He has a tendency to spin things in a way that is sometimes not entirely accurate.
    I think he does it to try to put a positive spin on things even if it ends up not being correct.
    It would helpful to me if you'd provide specific examples of times that I've done this. I'm not saying it's NEVER happened. But especially in the past year or so, I've made a point of showing information that's directly from the developers' mouths as much as possible. My main goal is to just educate people about what the developers are saying in a way that is quicker and easier to understand, since the devs tend to take about an hour to explain something and not everyone has time for that. That way, people can have more informed discussions about the game. My opinions are not nearly as important as that, so I try to keep them out of my YouTube videos or at least make it very clear when something is just an opinion.
    delete5230KyleranRaidan_EQ
  • BazgrimTVBazgrimTV Member UncommonPosts: 25
    Kyleran said:
    Dullahan said:
    The most relevant and informative parts of that video regarding mastery, were literally clips of Joppa explaining the details. As always, Bazgrim did a great job assembling those conversations, but ultimately the explanation was straight from the developer's mouth...
    Haven't watched the video, so I'll have to ask, did it actually show any of the decribed content or was it just mostly words about what was going to happen ”someday."

    Seems like most Pantheon videos are all talk with little action.....





    The Mastery System is already functioning in-game and I agree that seeing is a lot different than hearing, so as much as possible, I showed actual in-game clips of how the Mastery System UI works.
    Kyleran
  • UtinniUtinni Member EpicPosts: 1,885
    Tab target ESO. DANG!!!
  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member EpicPosts: 8,243
    Utinni said:
    Tab target ESO. DANG!!!
    Its that in a nutshell. You can add things to your skills and spells that will change your gameplay. 
  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member EpicPosts: 8,243
    Kyleran said:
    Dullahan said:
    The most relevant and informative parts of that video regarding mastery, were literally clips of Joppa explaining the details. As always, Bazgrim did a great job assembling those conversations, but ultimately the explanation was straight from the developer's mouth...
    Haven't watched the video, so I'll have to ask, did it actually show any of the decribed content or was it just mostly words about what was going to happen ”someday."

    Seems like most Pantheon videos are all talk with little action.....





    They do show it working in game and how it changes the Shaman spells. Its really not something to make a huge deal about. This type of system is used in a number of MMOs and always ends up the same. The community gets an expectation of how your skills should be modded and what was made to make your char unique ends up becoming cookie cutter builds everyone follows. 
    Kyleran
  • UtinniUtinni Member EpicPosts: 1,885
    Nanfoodle said:
    Utinni said:
    Tab target ESO. DANG!!!
    Its that in a nutshell. You can add things to your skills and spells that will change your gameplay. 

    But ... climbing!
  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member EpicPosts: 8,243
    Utinni said:
    Nanfoodle said:
    Utinni said:
    Tab target ESO. DANG!!!
    Its that in a nutshell. You can add things to your skills and spells that will change your gameplay. 

    But ... climbing!
    Ya, I was not a fan of jumping puzzles in GW2 but I play the game despite that. I think I will feel the same way about that in Pantheon. MMOs cant have everything you want but you can live with things you dont care about.  
    Kyleran
  • TwoTubesTwoTubes Member UncommonPosts: 232
    edited June 18
    BazgrimTV said:
    TwoTubes said:
    Be careful about info you get from bazgrim.  He has a tendency to spin things in a way that is sometimes not entirely accurate.
    I think he does it to try to put a positive spin on things even if it ends up not being correct.
    It would helpful to me if you'd provide specific examples of times that I've done this. I'm not saying it's NEVER happened. 
    Honestly man, I stopped watching your videos because of it.  I know people dont like the term "white knighting" but that's how I would describe it.
    At this point in development, with so many empty promises from the dev team, you are doing a diservice to people when you are overly optimistic about the project.  Everything we are told from the team needs to be taken with a grain of salt.  
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 28,375
    TwoTubes said:
    BazgrimTV said:
    TwoTubes said:
    Be careful about info you get from bazgrim.  He has a tendency to spin things in a way that is sometimes not entirely accurate.
    I think he does it to try to put a positive spin on things even if it ends up not being correct.
    It would helpful to me if you'd provide specific examples of times that I've done this. I'm not saying it's NEVER happened. 
    Honestly man, I stopped watching your videos because of it.  I know people dont like the term "white knighting" but that's how I would describe it.
    At this point in development, with so many empty promises from the dev team, you are doing a diservice to people when you are overly optimistic about the project.  Everything we are told from the team needs to be taken with a grain of salt.  
    This just sounds to me that unless someone is lambasting the project they are "a white knight."

    I've seen so many players/gamers who get angry at the most ridiculous thing or they have high expectations based on misinformation or what's in their head.

    Even with this game, some people complain that it's been in production for "x years" but they refuse to acknowledge that the first few years were a wash. They lost people, had to start over, had a crappy kickstarter as well. It was just a mess.

    Now one could complain about the start of the project being a mess and that would be valid. But complaining that the game had 'been in development for x years" completely ignores all the misfires.

    It just seems to me that there are playres/gamers who are angry and just want to point fingers and rant. And for what? A video game? I mean, if you've given thousands of dollars to this project then sure, your interest is higher than most and that makes you an investor of sorts. But if anyone has not given money then what's there to be upset about? 

    Nothing. If they get it done great. If not "great" and people will not have wasted the energy being pissed.
    WellspringNanfoodleKyleran
  • XthosXthos Member UncommonPosts: 2,729
    The guy is just reporting what they say, and giving his reactions it sounds like.  He would not be responsible for the project folding or them changing their minds.  That would be on the developers.  I wouldn't call that white knighting.  Now if he was promising that it would be a certain way, and giving some guarantees that he does not really control, maybe so.  It almost sounds like you would rather him black knight, and doubt everything, which would be a crappy way to try to get anyone to watch videos you make.  No one wants to see someone be a big downer on everything.  Any reasonable person knows that their is no guarantee in gaming, Pantheon could end tomorrow, and they all move on.  I hope it gets released, and still in a form that made me want to play it originally.  I also hope they stick to no p2w cash shop.  I am tired of those, and I have only really played 1 mmorpg a lot with one (Archeage since release, not playing now).
    Sovrath
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