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Mob/creature congestion, more of them or less ?

delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 7,081
edited June 2020 in The Pub at MMORPG.COM

When traveling from point A to B do you like constant creatures attacking you or the ability to go around ?...spread out or congested. 

Do you like to select what your about to fight ?.... In other words take the offence approach.

At times would you like more distance to enjoy the landscape or wilderness ? 

As always I use Vanilla WoW as my example,

Infact it serves as a good middle ground for this discussion.  Older games seemed to have even less mob/creature congestion, whereas newer games have more. 

 

My opinion I like less congestion and more visual landscape to soak in the environment. I like to pick and choose my targets and make my own choices.  Modern games could be annoyances with congestion and placements or mobs.  Even my beloved Vanilla WoW could be extrem for my taste.   Where as Vanguard had less, more relaxing yet more dangerous.  

With less congestion, I feel more control.  I get to pick my fights and suffer the consequences if I'm wrong… no one to blame but myself.  It's also more relaxing making me want to live in that world..... As always you could have that "cave" or that hill or that fortress, where you have to battle your way in to get something.  However that's a singular choice.... do I go in there ?

I don't like constant action.  How about you ?

Post edited by delete5230 on
Tuor7Azaron_Nightblade

Comments

  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
    I don't want predictability. I want uncertainty and danger. Monsters are not library books, to be engaged only when and if you choose. 
    SovrathAlBQuirkyChildoftheShadows

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 7,081
    edited June 2020
    Amathe said:
    I don't want predictability. I want uncertainty and danger. Monsters are not library books, to be engaged only when and if you choose. 
    OK,
    I could respect that. Two sides to everything. That's why it's a question.
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 31,937
    less. I hated it, in Lord of the Rings Online, traveling across a frozen area and being attacked every 10 feet. I remember actually making a post on it so traumatic it was.




    KyleranCaffynatedAlBQuirkyTuor7Theocritus
    Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb." 

    Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w


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    Try the "Special Edition." 'Cause it's "Special." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/64878/?tab=description

    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
  • AeanderAeander Member LegendaryPosts: 7,821
    I don't like it when mobs stand around at all. I'd much prefer patrols and dynamic content.
    AlBQuirkyIselinTuor7CryomatrixSteelhelm
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,435
    I'm firmly in the camp of less, but more interesting encounters.

    I don't mind if a specific location is stuffed full of NPCs, just don't want the entire map littered full of them.
    delete5230AlBQuirkyTuor7

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  • CaffynatedCaffynated Member RarePosts: 753
    I like games where mobs are placed in specific spots for specific reasons. Just having them strewn about the landscape at random is immersion breaking, and really annoying when traveling. You can't walk 5 feet without tripping over another mob that aggros and tries to dismount you.

    Give me a design where the placement of encounters was thought out and make sense. I'd rather have a couple of orc camps where orcs stand around the fire with patrols that walk between them, than a large area with orcs deployed at random to stand there looking like they're lost.
    delete5230AlBQuirkyTuor7[Deleted User]
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,432
    "Less is more", in my opinion.

    Of course it depends. In an Orc stronghold, I'd expect to fight tooth and nail for every inch. In the wilderness, however, traveling must be do-able to allow players to meet with each other without constantly dying. I'd also like to see mobs fight each other, as they may not all get along :)

    I like Caffynated's idea of placement making sense instead of willy-nilly "random" spawns. I had not thought about that much before.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    Sovrath said:
    less. I hated it, in Lord of the Rings Online, traveling across a frozen area and being attacked every 10 feet. I remember actually making a post on it so traumatic it was.




    I thought LOTRO, at least at release, did it pretty well actually with some of the early zones like the Shire, Breeland and Lonelands very sparse except for concentrated areas that made sense and then the higher level zones like Angmar, etc. had much higher density. Density was one of the ways they ramped up difficulty.

    I guess over time that differentiation got lost since all of he new zones added were high level zones so they just kept going with the high density everywhere. I know the zone you're talking about but I forget the name. You couldn't take two steps without fighting unless you were a burglar of course.

    A game like ESO OTOH overdoes it with high density everywhere except on roads.
    AlBQuirky
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

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  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 31,937
    edited June 2020
    Iselin said:
    Sovrath said:
    less. I hated it, in Lord of the Rings Online, traveling across a frozen area and being attacked every 10 feet. I remember actually making a post on it so traumatic it was.




    I thought LOTRO, at least at release, did it pretty well actually with some of the early zones like the Shire, Breeland and Lonelands very sparse except for concentrated areas that made sense and then the higher level zones like Angmar, etc. had much higher density. Density was one of the ways they ramped up difficulty.

    I guess over time that differentiation got lost since all of he new zones added were high level zones so they just kept going with the high density everywhere. I know the zone you're talking about but I forget the name. You couldn't take two steps without fighting unless you were a burglar of course.

    A game like ESO OTOH overdoes it with high density everywhere except on roads.
    Yeah those early zones were great.

    There is an area north of Rivendell, you have to take a narrow path to it. It opens up with some dwarven outpost on the left and then this flat frozen plain. On it are these white yeti looking creatures that were everywhere. 

    Additionally, when I recently became fed up with the quests in my area and just wanted to travel to Minas Tirith there were sooo many mobs on or next to the road that it took several tries and a swim in order to actually bypass that.

    As delete says, there is something about enjoying the distance of a wilderness or mountain range. Though I don't agree with him in that the player should be able to pick their targets. 


    AlBQuirky
    Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb." 

    Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w


    Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547

    Try the "Special Edition." 'Cause it's "Special." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/64878/?tab=description

    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,432
    Iselin said:
    Sovrath said:
    less. I hated it, in Lord of the Rings Online, traveling across a frozen area and being attacked every 10 feet. I remember actually making a post on it so traumatic it was.




    I thought LOTRO, at least at release, did it pretty well actually with some of the early zones like the Shire, Breeland and Lonelands very sparse except for concentrated areas that made sense and then the higher level zones like Angmar, etc. had much higher density. Density was one of the ways they ramped up difficulty.

    I guess over time that differentiation got lost since all of he new zones added were high level zones so they just kept going with the high density everywhere. I know the zone you're talking about but I forget the name. You couldn't take two steps without fighting unless you were a burglar of course.

    A game like ESO OTOH overdoes it with high density everywhere except on roads.

    I was disappointed in GW2 when I got to the "end zone" and all it ended up being was wall to wall fighting. I think I gave up soon afterward :)
    CaffynatedTuor7

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • NeanderthalNeanderthal Member RarePosts: 1,861
    I guess I would say that in open outdoor (non-dungeon) areas I prefer the mob density to be such that if you are careful you can usually avoid fights but once in a while you may be caught off guard.

    Something related to this is that I greatly prefer fewer tougher mobs over multitudes of weak mobs.  I'd rather fight one strong enemy than 15 wimpy things.
    Tuor7AlBQuirky
  • CaffynatedCaffynated Member RarePosts: 753
    AlBQuirky said:
    Iselin said:
    Sovrath said:
    less. I hated it, in Lord of the Rings Online, traveling across a frozen area and being attacked every 10 feet. I remember actually making a post on it so traumatic it was.




    I thought LOTRO, at least at release, did it pretty well actually with some of the early zones like the Shire, Breeland and Lonelands very sparse except for concentrated areas that made sense and then the higher level zones like Angmar, etc. had much higher density. Density was one of the ways they ramped up difficulty.

    I guess over time that differentiation got lost since all of he new zones added were high level zones so they just kept going with the high density everywhere. I know the zone you're talking about but I forget the name. You couldn't take two steps without fighting unless you were a burglar of course.

    A game like ESO OTOH overdoes it with high density everywhere except on roads.

    I was disappointed in GW2 when I got to the "end zone" and all it ended up being was wall to wall fighting. I think I gave up soon afterward :)

    Orr was ridiculous at launch. You couldn't move around at all without aggroing something and everything aggroed in packs. If you were a ranged class, forget it, you can't kite without aggroing three more packs of mobs. To their credit, they did listen to player feedback and it didn't take long before they massively lowered mob density.

    I get what they were going for. The Heart quest hubs had ended and this was a more dangerous area. We're now in a warzone and the players are part of an army that's invading, but individual players don't carry an army in their pocket and have to explore the area solo to catch up with the event zergs. That was very difficult for most players.
    KyleranTuor7AlBQuirky
  • lotrlorelotrlore Managing EditorMMORPG.COM Staff, Member RarePosts: 543
    Sovrath said:
    less. I hated it, in Lord of the Rings Online, traveling across a frozen area and being attacked every 10 feet. I remember actually making a post on it so traumatic it was.




    This was my month in the Lone Lands helping my new kinmembers level up to where I was when the game first launched. And then again in the Misty Mountains later on. It was so annoying.

    It really hasn't gotten any better, either.
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 2,193
    When I load into an MMORPG and look out just beyond the city to see loads of mobs I already know I’m not going to like the game. I tried really hard to like BDO when it first launched, but not only were there mobs strewn everywhere, they could never be wiped out. It didn’t take 5 seconds before another one took its place.

    KyleranAlBQuirky
  • cameltosiscameltosis Member LegendaryPosts: 3,703
    Fit the density with the world.

    An orc stronghold? Pack it with mobs, make them aggressive and link up their aggro.

    An wide open plain? Put some natural mobs (lions, wolves, gazelles, whatever) more sparsely.

    Near a big city? Surrounding countryside should be pretty damn safe.


    Proper AI would make things better with patrols, simulated population controls and stuff, yeh, that'd be awesome but I don't expect that sort of thing in a massively multiplayer game. Best I think we'll get is "static" patrols - basically what we already have, just with some pre-determined movement.
    AlBQuirkySteelhelm
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member LegendaryPosts: 9,739
    I kind of liked EQ1's approach where there were less but many of them roamed around and you could be in trouble if you werent paying attention. I've never really been a fan of non-stop fighting, especially if I am trying to get from one place to another.
    KyleranTuor7AlBQuirky
  • Azaron_NightbladeAzaron_Nightblade Member EpicPosts: 4,829
    Definitely less.

    Nothing kills immersion faster than an endless horde of mobs covering every square inch.

    Hell, add some completely empty areas of the world where you can just admire the view without something trying to hump your leg every five seconds.
    delete5230Tuor7AlBQuirkyKyleran

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  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,432
    AlBQuirky said:
    Iselin said:
    Sovrath said:
    less. I hated it, in Lord of the Rings Online, traveling across a frozen area and being attacked every 10 feet. I remember actually making a post on it so traumatic it was.




    I thought LOTRO, at least at release, did it pretty well actually with some of the early zones like the Shire, Breeland and Lonelands very sparse except for concentrated areas that made sense and then the higher level zones like Angmar, etc. had much higher density. Density was one of the ways they ramped up difficulty.

    I guess over time that differentiation got lost since all of he new zones added were high level zones so they just kept going with the high density everywhere. I know the zone you're talking about but I forget the name. You couldn't take two steps without fighting unless you were a burglar of course.

    A game like ESO OTOH overdoes it with high density everywhere except on roads.

    I was disappointed in GW2 when I got to the "end zone" and all it ended up being was wall to wall fighting. I think I gave up soon afterward :)

    Orr was ridiculous at launch. You couldn't move around at all without aggroing something and everything aggroed in packs. If you were a ranged class, forget it, you can't kite without aggroing three more packs of mobs. To their credit, they did listen to player feedback and it didn't take long before they massively lowered mob density.

    I get what they were going for. The Heart quest hubs had ended and this was a more dangerous area. We're now in a warzone and the players are part of an army that's invading, but individual players don't carry an army in their pocket and have to explore the area solo to catch up with the event zergs. That was very difficult for most players.

    Orr! Thank you. That was bugging me :)

    Yes, my Nord Ranger (my only character I got to that zone) had trouble there.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 25,347
    I usually prefer relatively low mob density, but with longer aggro ranges so that you don't end up with mobs near you ignoring you while you kill their friends.  In dungeons in Uncharted Waters Online, when you aggro any one mob, everything on the entire floor comes after you.  None of this wait your turn and only attack the hero three at a time nonsense.
    AlBQuirky
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 2,193
    Quizzical said:
    I usually prefer relatively low mob density, but with longer aggro ranges so that you don't end up with mobs near you ignoring you while you kill their friends.  In dungeons in Uncharted Waters Online, when you aggro any one mob, everything on the entire floor comes after you.  None of this wait your turn and only attack the hero three at a time nonsense.
    Pretty much this, but I prefer there to be tactics that can be used to lure fewer at a time.
    AlBQuirky
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    edited June 2020
    I want to see several AGGRO systems not just a simple proximity.
    I want to see a REASOn why mobs are where the yare and not just randomly tossed out there to provide a link to a fetch me quest.

    I did not like how Wow had the mobs placed,it looked like an automatic distancing system that at times made it impossible to get through w/o being forced to fight trash mobs.I am talking even outdoors not inside dungeons.

    I do want some risk while traveling but i do not like overly dense areas.I realise that for the sake of heavy grouping you need "enough" mobs but that is where i chime in with "offer more choices".

    Also creating very fast spawn times is a terrible answer to having less mobs.

    I have witnessed two distinct phases in Boss designs.The first being fight through tons of trash mobs with no way around them.Then in comes Blizzard and makes it worse by doing it always in instances.

    The FFXI way was similar but imo a tad better,very few instances and the ability to actually bypass mobs.The biggest difference is that Wow is mostly a SOLO game,so players will NOT have access to ways to get around mobs.
    In FFXI the only reason you need to get around mobs is if entering a very difficult area for a specific purpose,a purpose that requires a group.So within a group setting you will always have access to bypassing mobs.Besides that FFXi offers the sub  class which means you also have access to versatility with ANY class.


    Long winded point....design your game properly and you avoid complaint topics.My biggest complaint within FFX Iwas not group distancing or aggro ,it was being able to form a group.Over time more tank options,mor ehealing options,more options ...period pretty much eliminated al lproblems.So that gets back to what i just said,design your game properly and problems solved.

    AlBQuirky

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • TheocritusTheocritus Member LegendaryPosts: 9,739
    Quizzical said:
    I usually prefer relatively low mob density, but with longer aggro ranges so that you don't end up with mobs near you ignoring you while you kill their friends.  In dungeons in Uncharted Waters Online, when you aggro any one mob, everything on the entire floor comes after you.  None of this wait your turn and only attack the hero three at a time nonsense.

    I don't remember doing any dungeons in UWO but I remember fighting out in the open...I was usually able to single pull and msot of the fights I didnt win by much...usually at least half dead...I cant imagine fighting a whole floor of mobs in that game unless they were very low level.
    AlBQuirky
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,198
    edited June 2020
    I'd go for more realistic. Black Desert is probably one of the worst. You have hordes of monsters right outside of town. It's obnoxious.  What nation of men doesn't clear out immediate wild? To me the further you go from civilization the more big monsters you see. That is unless the base of operations is in the middle of hostile territory.  
    Post edited by Vermillion_Raventhal on
    AlBQuirky
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 25,347
    Quizzical said:
    I usually prefer relatively low mob density, but with longer aggro ranges so that you don't end up with mobs near you ignoring you while you kill their friends.  In dungeons in Uncharted Waters Online, when you aggro any one mob, everything on the entire floor comes after you.  None of this wait your turn and only attack the hero three at a time nonsense.

    I don't remember doing any dungeons in UWO but I remember fighting out in the open...I was usually able to single pull and msot of the fights I didnt win by much...usually at least half dead...I cant imagine fighting a whole floor of mobs in that game unless they were very low level.
    The floors were quite small.
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