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Pantheon and Saga of Lucimia

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  • tzervotzervo Member EpicPosts: 1,646
    edited May 2020
    Just to clear up a couple misunderstandings @Tanist and @delete5230

    1)
    I think you are dismissing the legitimate game play arguments against maps by claiming they are simple QoL aspects.

    I am not. Read my post again carefully:

    Although I see his point in trying to force/increase immersion:

    I explicitly said I can buy the argument that this enhances immersion for example and that was one of SoL lead's arguments about using landmarks etc. Not having maps is a non-issue for me personally if the game supports it well - it's all about the implementation.

    But I call BS on them saying this is to prevent the game from being ezmode and handholding-y. Maps are (mostly) QoL. I gave examples of games that have maps and I bet are harder and less handholding-y than what SoL aims to be: EVE, Screeps.

    2) 

    As for his response, why not provide the entire context of the response?
    ...
    If anything, I am glad they are taking a hard line stance against mainstream. It is better for them to be upfront to the players and make their stance clear than it is to pander to numerous complaints of subjective demands.
    I totally agree with you that devs should keep a hard stance against players asking for "stuff" because "reasons" and I respect him for doing this. I have no respect for players throwing tantrums about things not being designed with them in mind. I considered the other poster's input useless, so I omitted it, but added the link in case someone else wanted to judge the context (like you did). But this brings me to..

    3) Regardless of what the other guy said in that thread, SoL lead's conduct was not professional. It's not a matter of sensitivity, it is me seeing a professional not being able to behave professionally and rationally while having the "job hat" on. And that is a flag to me.
  • TanistTanist Member UncommonPosts: 272
    edited May 2020
    Tanist said:
    I'm beginning to think you're only here to promote SoL on a Pantheon forum. Perhaps the mods should start paying attention to that.
    That isn't thinking your doing, that is pining. 

    I mean, it isn't a very intelligent argument to make considering the entire point of this thread was to compare both. 

    By the way...

    I supported pantheon with my own money? You? 

    Also, I have yet to donate to SoL.

    Guess you will have to come up with some other accusation. 

    Maybe you can call me a dumb animal like you did before. Maybe the mods should look at your behavior? Hmmm?

    Did I quote you? 
    We have been over this.

    Quote who you are speaking to, this avoids confusion.

    Refusing to do so, then acting as you are is rather silly. 

    So, again.. if you are referring to Delete, quote him... 

    If not, then don't get upset if I quote you thinking you are speaking to me. The ball is in your court, you can continue to play games with this, or you can make an effort to be understood. 

    Something tells me you have alternate motives though... 
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 2,013
    Tanist said:
    Tanist said:
    I'm beginning to think you're only here to promote SoL on a Pantheon forum. Perhaps the mods should start paying attention to that.
    That isn't thinking your doing, that is pining. 

    I mean, it isn't a very intelligent argument to make considering the entire point of this thread was to compare both. 

    By the way...

    I supported pantheon with my own money? You? 

    Also, I have yet to donate to SoL.

    Guess you will have to come up with some other accusation. 

    Maybe you can call me a dumb animal like you did before. Maybe the mods should look at your behavior? Hmmm?

    Did I quote you? 
    We have been over this.

    Quote who you are speaking to, this avoids confusion.

    Refusing to do so, then acting as you are is rather silly. 

    So, again.. if you are referring to Delete, quote him... 

    If not, then don't get upset if I quote you thinking you are speaking to me. The ball is in your court, you can continue to play games with this, or you can make an effort to be understood. 

    Something tells me you have alternate motives though... 
    Standard forums, if you're not quoting then it's direction toward the op. Are you new to forums? Stop acting like an entitle shit.
    KyleranYashaXdcutbi001
  • TanistTanist Member UncommonPosts: 272
    edited May 2020
    tzervo said:
    Just to clear up a couple misunderstandings @Tanist and @delete5230

    1)
    I think you are dismissing the legitimate game play arguments against maps by claiming they are simple QoL aspects.

    I am not. Read my post again carefully:

    Although I see his point in trying to force/increase immersion:

    I explicitly said I can buy the argument that this enhances immersion for example and that was one of SoL lead's arguments about using landmarks etc. Not having maps is a non-issue for me personally if the game supports it well - it's all about the implementation

    But I call BS on them saying this is to prevent the game from being ezmode and handholding-y. Maps are (mostly) QoL. I gave examples of games that have maps and I bet are harder and less handholding-y than what SoL aims to be: EVE, Screeps
    That is not an immersion argument, it is a game play one (hence the comments about it hand holding). Your argument on games previously having this is irrelevant. The point he is making stands. With a map, you gain a lot of information you would normally not have. This means you can more easily figure out where you are, what is ahead, where you may have died at, etc... without having to remember through landmarks or other responsible play aspects. There is a reason EQ had the song "Have you seen my corpse?" and it wasn't because having a map was a quality of life feature. 

    The very definition of a map is to make figuring out your location easier, so yes... a map in a game where the only death penalty they have is corpse recovery is hand holding, making the game easier. QoL is misused a lot in these arguments.

    We aren't talking about allowing you to pick up multiple items at a time versus tediously clicking each one into an inventory (that would be QoL argument), we are talking about a change that has a drastic effect over the penalty of play in this game.

    tzervo said:
    2) 

    As for his response, why not provide the entire context of the response?
    ...
    If anything, I am glad they are taking a hard line stance against mainstream. It is better for them to be upfront to the players and make their stance clear than it is to pander to numerous complaints of subjective demands.
    I totally agree with you that devs should keep a hard stance against players asking for "stuff" because "reasons" and I respect him for doing this. I have no respect for players throwing tantrums about things not being designed with them in mind. I considered the other poster's input useless, so I omitted it, but added the link in case someone else wanted to judge the context (like you did). But this brings me to..

    3) Regardless of what the other guy said in that thread, SoL lead's conduct was not professional. It's not a matter of sensitivity, it is me seeing a professional not being able to behave professionally and rationally while having the "job hat" on. And that is a flag to me.

    It was, like I said... you are being overly sensitive. They were being pretentious and dismissive of the entire point. They false summarized why they have the feature. They claimed it was QoL, went on to claim it was poor design and then proclaimed they aren't going to play a game without a map. They threw down a gauntlet and he responded in kind.

    I already explained how a map makes the game easier and he explained in the thread how allowing a map would create a problem with their design. Again, he was very professional, he just didn't pander to fragile egos. He is correct on all his points and I appreciate his direct demeanor. Frankly, I am tired of people pandering to the emotionally compromised.
  • TanistTanist Member UncommonPosts: 272
    edited May 2020
    Tanist said:
    Tanist said:
    I'm beginning to think you're only here to promote SoL on a Pantheon forum. Perhaps the mods should start paying attention to that.
    That isn't thinking your doing, that is pining. 

    I mean, it isn't a very intelligent argument to make considering the entire point of this thread was to compare both. 

    By the way...

    I supported pantheon with my own money? You? 

    Also, I have yet to donate to SoL.

    Guess you will have to come up with some other accusation. 

    Maybe you can call me a dumb animal like you did before. Maybe the mods should look at your behavior? Hmmm?

    Did I quote you? 
    We have been over this.

    Quote who you are speaking to, this avoids confusion.

    Refusing to do so, then acting as you are is rather silly. 

    So, again.. if you are referring to Delete, quote him... 

    If not, then don't get upset if I quote you thinking you are speaking to me. The ball is in your court, you can continue to play games with this, or you can make an effort to be understood. 

    Something tells me you have alternate motives though... 
    Standard forums, if you're not quoting then it's direction toward the op. Are you new to forums? Stop acting like an entitle shit.
    Yeah, um no. 

    By basic logical deduction, one can not be sure who the intended target is after several comments have been made. The fact is, as I explained to you before, many people post comments without quoting even though they were talking to someone above them. 

    Also, not quoting is what trolls often do in order to avoid getting dinged for a direct response. That way they can feign that their remark was not intended for that person. 

    Sorry, I was born at night, but not last night.

    Quote who you are referring to, or risk being responded to. That is logical, that is reasonable. 


    ChildoftheShadows
  • WellspringWellspring Member EpicPosts: 1,440
    Tanist said:

    Pantheon slowly changed from their original goals. They gave more and more to mainstream designs, losing what I think was important to what made games like EQ so enjoyable.

    Can you elaborate on what has changed from their original goals?
    dcutbi001
    --------------------------------------------
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,737
    I'm beginning to think you're only here to promote SoL on a Pantheon forum. Perhaps the mods should start paying attention to that.
    @ChildoftheShadows

    I'm here to compare.

    Sol has a solid game being developed with proof... people are actually playing it. I've played it !!

    Pantheon is still questionable where it takes the biggest fan "Bazgrim" to put together bits and pieces to ASSUME a game is being made.  He built a jigsaw puzzle and a good one at that..... However at the end of the day it's just a puzzle, without help from developers not even a dat-a-boy.


    I would love to promote Pantheon, 10 years from now when both are flushed out, Pantheon my be a much better game..... but for the time being "nothing from VR".


    I have a sneaky suspicion you already contacted management to have this topic wiped.

    So where would be an appropriate place to compare ?... the pub ?.... something tells me you don't want a comparison at all !!!  



    I like Pantheon too, but VR is doing an awful job. 
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 2,013
    Tanist said:
    Tanist said:
    Tanist said:
    I'm beginning to think you're only here to promote SoL on a Pantheon forum. Perhaps the mods should start paying attention to that.
    That isn't thinking your doing, that is pining. 

    I mean, it isn't a very intelligent argument to make considering the entire point of this thread was to compare both. 

    By the way...

    I supported pantheon with my own money? You? 

    Also, I have yet to donate to SoL.

    Guess you will have to come up with some other accusation. 

    Maybe you can call me a dumb animal like you did before. Maybe the mods should look at your behavior? Hmmm?

    Did I quote you? 
    We have been over this.

    Quote who you are speaking to, this avoids confusion.

    Refusing to do so, then acting as you are is rather silly. 

    So, again.. if you are referring to Delete, quote him... 

    If not, then don't get upset if I quote you thinking you are speaking to me. The ball is in your court, you can continue to play games with this, or you can make an effort to be understood. 

    Something tells me you have alternate motives though... 
    Standard forums, if you're not quoting then it's direction toward the op. Are you new to forums? Stop acting like an entitle shit.
    Yeah, um no. 

    By basic logical deduction, one can not be sure who the intended target is after several comments have been made. The fact is, as I explained to you before, many people post comments without quoting even though they were talking to someone above them. 

    Also, not quoting is what trolls often do in order to avoid getting dinged for a direct response. That way they can feign that their remark was not intended for that person. 

    Sorry, I was born at night, but not last night.

    Quote who you are referring to, or risk being responded to. That is logical, that is reasonable. 


    Feel free to put me on ignore or simply ignore anything I say. Your the only person that seems to have this issue and I'm not changing just for you.
    dcutbi001
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 2,013
    I'm beginning to think you're only here to promote SoL on a Pantheon forum. Perhaps the mods should start paying attention to that.
    @ChildoftheShadows

    I'm here to compare.

    Sol has a solid game being developed with proof... people are actually playing it. I've played it !!

    Pantheon is still questionable where it takes the biggest fan "Bazgrim" to put together bits and pieces to ASSUME a game is being made.  He built a jigsaw puzzle and a good one at that..... However at the end of the day it's just a puzzle, without help from developers not even a dat-a-boy.


    I would love to promote Pantheon, 10 years from now when both are flushed out, Pantheon my be a much better game..... but for the time being "nothing from VR".


    I have a sneaky suspicion you already contacted management to have this topic wiped.

    So where would be an appropriate place to compare ?... the pub ?.... something tells me you don't want a comparison at all !!!  



    I like Pantheon too, but VR is doing an awful job. 
    Baz didn't have to put any pieces together for himself. He only made that video for severe skeptics like yourself and to be honest it's just as much a waste of time as your rantings.

    If you had said these things, "is there a game even being made?" About CoE almost no one in this site would have argued because clearly they didn't have anything to show. Pantheon has plenty to show, you just refuse to believe it. That's why the flat Earth comments came in because even when presented with evidence you refuse to acknowledge that anything is being built. You don't get footage if nothing is being built.

    Maybe you should look at the argument you're presenting. "Is anything being done?" Clearly there is.
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,737
    I'm beginning to think you're only here to promote SoL on a Pantheon forum. Perhaps the mods should start paying attention to that.
    @ChildoftheShadows

    I'm here to compare.

    Sol has a solid game being developed with proof... people are actually playing it. I've played it !!

    Pantheon is still questionable where it takes the biggest fan "Bazgrim" to put together bits and pieces to ASSUME a game is being made.  He built a jigsaw puzzle and a good one at that..... However at the end of the day it's just a puzzle, without help from developers not even a dat-a-boy.


    I would love to promote Pantheon, 10 years from now when both are flushed out, Pantheon my be a much better game..... but for the time being "nothing from VR".


    I have a sneaky suspicion you already contacted management to have this topic wiped.

    So where would be an appropriate place to compare ?... the pub ?.... something tells me you don't want a comparison at all !!!  



    I like Pantheon too, but VR is doing an awful job. 
    Baz didn't have to put any pieces together for himself. He only made that video for severe skeptics like yourself and to be honest it's just as much a waste of time as your rantings.

    If you had said these things, "is there a game even being made?" About CoE almost no one in this site would have argued because clearly they didn't have anything to show. Pantheon has plenty to show, you just refuse to believe it. That's why the flat Earth comments came in because even when presented with evidence you refuse to acknowledge that anything is being built. You don't get footage if nothing is being built.

    Maybe you should look at the argument you're presenting. "Is anything being done?" Clearly there is.
    Not a very good rebuttal... Don't feel bad, because no one can rebuttal. 

    Saga of Lucima HAS A GAME.
    Pantheon has puzzle pieces.  

    dcutbi001
  • WellspringWellspring Member EpicPosts: 1,440
    I've backed both SoL and Pantheon, years ago when they first opened their stores.

    But I'm looking forward to playing Pantheon much more. It's shaping up to be a much more polished game. It's as close to a AAA quality MMORPG as you can get w/ an independent studio. I love the art style and that it will have character levels and similar classes and combat styles as EQ1.

    SoL is a completely different game. It's inspiration is heavily DnD, where progression is skill based, not levels. It uses a class-less system. It is no where near the same graphics quality as Pantheon. The team has less dev experience and work other jobs to pay their bills. They use a lot of store bought assets and animations. They're not in a rush, often spending time on side projects (writing a book, streaming DnD sessions, playing other MMOs, etc.).

    Disclaimer: Of course, this is all just my opinion based on my observations (which I admit could very well be outdated, as I haven't kept up with SoL the past year or two). And I'm not bashing the hard work that SoL team is doing. I want both teams to succeed and play both games. But to me, SoL is not even in the same realm as Pantheon.
    dcutbi001
    --------------------------------------------
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 2,013
    I'm beginning to think you're only here to promote SoL on a Pantheon forum. Perhaps the mods should start paying attention to that.
    @ChildoftheShadows

    I'm here to compare.

    Sol has a solid game being developed with proof... people are actually playing it. I've played it !!

    Pantheon is still questionable where it takes the biggest fan "Bazgrim" to put together bits and pieces to ASSUME a game is being made.  He built a jigsaw puzzle and a good one at that..... However at the end of the day it's just a puzzle, without help from developers not even a dat-a-boy.


    I would love to promote Pantheon, 10 years from now when both are flushed out, Pantheon my be a much better game..... but for the time being "nothing from VR".


    I have a sneaky suspicion you already contacted management to have this topic wiped.

    So where would be an appropriate place to compare ?... the pub ?.... something tells me you don't want a comparison at all !!!  



    I like Pantheon too, but VR is doing an awful job. 
    Baz didn't have to put any pieces together for himself. He only made that video for severe skeptics like yourself and to be honest it's just as much a waste of time as your rantings.

    If you had said these things, "is there a game even being made?" About CoE almost no one in this site would have argued because clearly they didn't have anything to show. Pantheon has plenty to show, you just refuse to believe it. That's why the flat Earth comments came in because even when presented with evidence you refuse to acknowledge that anything is being built. You don't get footage if nothing is being built.

    Maybe you should look at the argument you're presenting. "Is anything being done?" Clearly there is.
    Not a very good rebuttal... Don't feel bad, because no one can rebuttal. 

    Saga of Lucima HAS A GAME.
    Pantheon has puzzle pieces.  

    Just like a flat earther, no evidence is good enough. No one can refute because nothing will convince you, but that doesn't make you right.
    dcutbi001
  • TanistTanist Member UncommonPosts: 272
    Feel free to put me on ignore or simply ignore anything I say. Your the only person that seems to have this issue and I'm not changing just for you.
    Done.
  • achesomaachesoma Member RarePosts: 1,462
    I've backed both SoL and Pantheon, years ago when they first opened their stores.

    But I'm looking forward to playing Pantheon much more. It's shaping up to be a much more polished game. It's as close to a AAA quality MMORPG as you can get w/ an independent studio. I love the art style and that it will have character levels and similar classes and combat styles as EQ1.

    SoL is a completely different game. It's inspiration is heavily DnD, where progression is skill based, not levels. It uses a class-less system. It is no where near the same graphics quality as Pantheon. The team has less dev experience and work other jobs to pay their bills. They use a lot of store bought assets and animations. They're not in a rush, often spending time on side projects (writing a book, streaming DnD sessions, playing other MMOs, etc.).

    Disclaimer: Of course, this is all just my opinion based on my observations (which I admit could very well be outdated, as I haven't kept up with SoL the past year or two). And I'm not bashing the hard work that SoL team is doing. I want both teams to succeed and play both games. But to me, SoL is not even in the same realm as Pantheon.

    Have you seen the last 3 SoL streams put out? Graphically, it's looking pretty good considering they still don't have an FX artist or graphics programmer yet.

    Pantheon does look really good and more polished but that didn't happen until last year. And that was after Asmongold trashed Pantheon for looking terrible then VR started focusing more on the looks of the game.


    Regarding Maps:

    It's kind of strange how people have fixated so much on SoL not having a map when Pantheon doesn't have one either.
    Wellspring

  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,737
    I'm beginning to think you're only here to promote SoL on a Pantheon forum. Perhaps the mods should start paying attention to that.
    @ChildoftheShadows

    I'm here to compare.

    Sol has a solid game being developed with proof... people are actually playing it. I've played it !!

    Pantheon is still questionable where it takes the biggest fan "Bazgrim" to put together bits and pieces to ASSUME a game is being made.  He built a jigsaw puzzle and a good one at that..... However at the end of the day it's just a puzzle, without help from developers not even a dat-a-boy.


    I would love to promote Pantheon, 10 years from now when both are flushed out, Pantheon my be a much better game..... but for the time being "nothing from VR".


    I have a sneaky suspicion you already contacted management to have this topic wiped.

    So where would be an appropriate place to compare ?... the pub ?.... something tells me you don't want a comparison at all !!!  



    I like Pantheon too, but VR is doing an awful job. 
    Baz didn't have to put any pieces together for himself. He only made that video for severe skeptics like yourself and to be honest it's just as much a waste of time as your rantings.

    If you had said these things, "is there a game even being made?" About CoE almost no one in this site would have argued because clearly they didn't have anything to show. Pantheon has plenty to show, you just refuse to believe it. That's why the flat Earth comments came in because even when presented with evidence you refuse to acknowledge that anything is being built. You don't get footage if nothing is being built.

    Maybe you should look at the argument you're presenting. "Is anything being done?" Clearly there is.
    Not a very good rebuttal... Don't feel bad, because no one can rebuttal. 

    Saga of Lucima HAS A GAME.
    Pantheon has puzzle pieces.  

    Just like a flat earther, no evidence is good enough. No one can refute because nothing will convince you, but that doesn't make you right.
    Well, flat earther's could be proven wrong by simply flying them into orbit and showing them.  Proof !

    SoL, you can actually play the game.  Proof !

    Try playing Pantheon, see how far you get.
  • TanistTanist Member UncommonPosts: 272
    I've backed both SoL and Pantheon, years ago when they first opened their stores.

    But I'm looking forward to playing Pantheon much more. It's shaping up to be a much more polished game. It's as close to a AAA quality MMORPG as you can get w/ an independent studio. I love the art style and that it will have character levels and similar classes and combat styles as EQ1.

    SoL is a completely different game. It's inspiration is heavily DnD, where progression is skill based, not levels. It uses a class-less system. It is no where near the same graphics quality as Pantheon. The team has less dev experience and work other jobs to pay their bills. They use a lot of store bought assets and animations. They're not in a rush, often spending time on side projects (writing a book, streaming DnD sessions, playing other MMOs, etc.).

    Disclaimer: Of course, this is all just my opinion based on my observations (which I admit could very well be outdated, as I haven't kept up with SoL the past year or two). And I'm not bashing the hard work that SoL team is doing. I want both teams to succeed and play both games. But to me, SoL is not even in the same realm as Pantheon.
    This is a response to your previous comment to me as well..


    Pantheon from its initial release was first very clear in its tenants, a focus on a very specific style of game for a niche audience and not afraid to use EQ and some elements of VG as a basis for what they wanted to achieve. 

    The early forums, it was pretty much settled in discussions as to the basic direction to which the game was headed. It didn't care about pretty graphics, being AAA, competing for mainstream markets, etc... It only wanted to build a very specific "Vision" to what was missing in games today.


    Over the years, this changed slowly. FAQ changed over the years to be more... malleable to mainstream. the term "Community" became a buzz word (over the elements of game play to which drove the reason for communities in the first place). Terms like "Old School" became terms they wished to distance themselves from (or any relation to EQ/VG for that matter). Doubling down on being a new game, with new directions, new features, etc... became the mantra, while the old comments of traditional mechanics of long past faded away. The forums became inundated with mainstream calls for design changes and arguments that once constantly were shut down by Kilsin, became "questions of the day" even though past discussions had already been settled. 


    If you are looking for empirical means for me to quote tit for tat to support my points, well... it isn't really worth my efforts to be honest (no offense to you). I can merely point out my general experiences with the game and I find Pantheon to be... well... as you describe, becoming more of an AAA game, attending to a wider audience, focused on a player base that I honestly have nothing in common with. 

    Now, as for SoL in terms of development? 

    Read the links I provided recently on the creative director describing their stages, where they are at, where they were, where they are going, etc..

    The level of professionalism in their development structure is quite impressive and they have gone far beyond what one would expect with transparency. The more I read, the more impressed I became. 

    Pantheon never at any time was at this level of professionalism (their own kick starter  was nothing more than pictures, half baked ideas and directions, which is why it failed). Don't get me wrong, the chance at an EQ like MMO had me from the first line (which is what I think they were counting on). 

    I would highly suggest reading more into SoL. In terms of evidence of development skill (ie able to structure a development cycle, meet goals, and time tables), they have shown far more legitimacy. 

    Now keep in mind, I would play a game of EQs level of graphics and design today if it were released as I am more interested in game play, not graphics or other AAA features. 




    Wellspringdelete5230Timukas
  • achesomaachesoma Member RarePosts: 1,462
    Tanist said:

    Pantheon slowly changed from their original goals. They gave more and more to mainstream designs, losing what I think was important to what made games like EQ so enjoyable.

    Can you elaborate on what has changed from their original goals?

    Yeah, I'm interested in this as well. There isn't anything up to this point that makes me think VR is pivoting from their original design. Like encumbrance for example, they are sticking to that and even announced coin weight. That's pretty far from mainstream imo. And to be clear, Brad/VR always said they aren't making another EQ. The main goal has always been group-focused, social gaming experience. The plan was never to make an EQ emulator with modern graphics but everyone insists on making that assumption.


    Straight from the FAQ:

    Pantheon is most definitely a modern MMO with modern graphics and new and exciting features and mechanics. There are already emulators out there that are clones of earlier MMOs and Visionary Realms has no desire to make another emulator. That said, we also feel that many of the features and mechanics of previous MMOs have been abandoned in more recent games, resulting in a less challenging, compelling, deep, and social experience. Pantheon, therefore, will indeed bring back some of these conventional mechanics and ideas but with a fresh perspective, some tweaks and revisions. We also understand that while gamers’ tastes don’t fundamentally change over time, their situations, lives, and responsibilities do. Likewise, some game mechanics often associated with earlier MMOs involved inordinate amounts of downtime, overly severe penalties, too much competition over content and resources, and even downright boring or overly repetitive gameplay. Our intention, therefore, is not to bring back ‘everything’ from the old days, but rather to pick and choose those which make sense and are needed to make a fun, social, cooperative, and challenging game.

    Wellspring

  • TanistTanist Member UncommonPosts: 272
    I'm beginning to think you're only here to promote SoL on a Pantheon forum. Perhaps the mods should start paying attention to that.
    @ChildoftheShadows

    I'm here to compare.

    Sol has a solid game being developed with proof... people are actually playing it. I've played it !!

    I want to play it, but I will refrain. I have pretty much Alpha/Beta'd most MMOs since UO and I have no desire to ruin my experience. I want to be the wild eye'd noob from day one. 

    One thing I like about SoL's approach is that they are going dark and locking down to limit as much info as possible on  the game so that when it does release, there is some mystery. I know this is a losing battle, with the numerous cheat sites that pop up, but I do appreciate their acknowledgement that many of us will play the game without looking up the cheats and so are respecting that level of mystery to game play. 


  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 38,239
    edited May 2020
    Tanist said:
    tzervo said:

    On one hand they are more transparent (as per the links you gave) and give more detailed reports on their progress and this is commendable.

    On the other hand they conflate lack of QoL features on their design with difficulty, and this shows either inexperience or lack of resources. And when they are challenged with this their lead becomes patronising and condescending, which shows unprofessionalism. See here: 

    https://massivelyop.com/2020/03/23/saga-of-lucimia-shows-off-over-two-hours-of-stage-three-alpha-gameplay/#comments

    as an example. Here their lead is challenged for his choice to not include a map. Although I see his point in trying to force/increase immersion:

    1) He is confusing this as "not being ezmode". I play two MMOs these days: EVE and Screeps (where you actually have to code your colony AI). Both have maps and I would be willing to bet they are harder than SoL.

    2) When challenged with this he is downright unprofessional and condescending:
    I get it. Not everyone can handle the world when they don’t have someone there to hold their hand. But for those who can manage? There’s a vast landscape to explore :)
    There are plenty of ezmode games for you to play already on the market. We suggest enjoying those if you want something where everything is handed to you on a silver platter.
    Ours is a game for those who want to work for their rewards. Certainly not for everyone.

    Not invested in either game yet (I never do until there is a no-wipe date announcement), but SoL lead's conduct already inspires more contempt than confidence for me.

    I think you are dismissing the legitimate game play arguments against maps by claiming they are simple QoL aspects. There are many valid arguments as to why a map provides more "ease" in play , removes various responsibilities of the player, and takes away numerous game play features that provide depth to the game by not having them (spells, abilities, etc...). 

    As for his response, why not provide the entire context of the response?


    Covynant001

    Never played a MMORPG without some sort of map, compass and /loc system, and I go all the way back to Lineage 1 the Bloodpledge.

    Not about to start now.

    Poor design decision IMO, having nothing to do with improving the player or group experience.

    Not expecting quest markers, mini maps or lines to targets, just basic orienteering tools found even in most old school games including EQ1 (at some point) to help a player understand where they are in relationship to the game world.


    Tim Anderson

    Good luck navigating the real world when Google Maps/GPS fail :)

    There are many, many ways for players to understand where they are in relationship to the game world. None of them require handholding.

    Landmarks. The position of the sun (it moves the same way in our game world as it does in the real world). Directions that the NPCs give you.

    I get it. Not everyone can handle the world when they don’t have someone there to hold their hand. But for those who can manage? There’s a vast landscape to explore :)


    The poster was claiming the decision to have no maps was a "poor design decision" and claiming it had nothing to do with the player group experience.

    That claim is subjective as it serves the posters position, not everyone else. I agree with Tim, and for many of the same reasons he would argue as such. This is not a "poor design decision", it is merely a design decision that does not fit in line with that players expectations. 

    I think his response was appropriate and I think you are being a bit too sensitive. He made a slight in the same manner that the poster did (I find it odd how many people online are tone deaf to their own demeanor, yet throw tantrums if they aren't praised in their opinion. 

    His response was logical and on key for his point. 

    If anything, I am glad they are taking a hard line stance against mainstream. It is better for them to be upfront to the players and make their stance clear than it is to pander to numerous complaints of subjective demands. It is about time a game designer makes "their game" and offers it to the world. After all, a painter doesn't ask the viewer how they should paint, they produce their art and people either appreciate it or they don't. This is one of those issues and it is refreshing to see a developer stand up for their vision rather than pandering to the crowd. 

    This is one of the key reasons why I no longer have interest in Pantheon. They started pandering to the players, rather than holding to their original vision. 

    edit:

    Yeah, after reading through that whole thread with Tim and the posters, he was quite polite. Those posters were belligerent children throwing insults all around. They deserved to be treating in far worse fashion than they were. My hat goes off to Tim for his restraint. 
    You are at severe risk of tipping over into the fanboi column, with White Knight being on the near horizon.

    LOL, just realized the post he responded to was....mine over on MOP, thanks for bringing it to my attention. 

    I did not insult Tim, stating IMO the decision to not include maps was poor as it did not improve the player or group experience nor was it following any historical precedence, even EQ1 quickly dumped this idea.

    Tim first comes back with a ”witty” remark which is his trade mark so all good and goes on a tangent explaining how players can navigate which really wasn't the question as I well know how to do such things, but question why I should want to.

    Instead of coming back with sound reasoning on how it actually does improve either the player or group experience (perhaps because it doesn't) or some other facet of the overall game play he goes on to directly insult my fortitude and intelligence for no good purpose, well except to troll of course.

    I've grown weary of the overly snarky remarks and platitudes, he needs to grow up and start responding to his potential customers in a more professional manner.

    The gaming world already has enough leaders without any class or tact, we don't need one more.




    tzervoachesomaYashaXdcutbi001

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing ESO - Blackwood at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • TanistTanist Member UncommonPosts: 272
    achesoma said:
    Tanist said:

    Pantheon slowly changed from their original goals. They gave more and more to mainstream designs, losing what I think was important to what made games like EQ so enjoyable.

    Can you elaborate on what has changed from their original goals?

    Yeah, I'm interested in this as well. There isn't anything up to this point that makes me think VR is pivoting from their original design. Like encumbrance for example, they are sticking to that and even announced coin weight. That's pretty far from mainstream imo. And to be clear, Brad/VR always said they aren't making another EQ. The main goal has always been group-focused, social gaming experience. The plan was never to make an EQ emulator with modern graphics but everyone insists on making that assumption.


    Straight from the FAQ:

    Pantheon is most definitely a modern MMO with modern graphics and new and exciting features and mechanics. There are already emulators out there that are clones of earlier MMOs and Visionary Realms has no desire to make another emulator. That said, we also feel that many of the features and mechanics of previous MMOs have been abandoned in more recent games, resulting in a less challenging, compelling, deep, and social experience. Pantheon, therefore, will indeed bring back some of these conventional mechanics and ideas but with a fresh perspective, some tweaks and revisions. We also understand that while gamers’ tastes don’t fundamentally change over time, their situations, lives, and responsibilities do. Likewise, some game mechanics often associated with earlier MMOs involved inordinate amounts of downtime, overly severe penalties, too much competition over content and resources, and even downright boring or overly repetitive gameplay. Our intention, therefore, is not to bring back ‘everything’ from the old days, but rather to pick and choose those which make sense and are needed to make a fun, social, cooperative, and challenging game.

    A lot of my evaluation is based on my reading their progression since the KS. 

    The FAQ has been modified several times over the years to be more general in some areas as well as to support their adjustments in focus (ie mainstream appealing). That was a contention on the forums in the past by several people who noticed.

    Some things, it is just a matter of tone noticed over the years which had changed. Hard to explain, but what was once a firm stance for old school principals of design are now the above FAQ as you provided, something I would expect a mainstream developer to argue. 


    That is, that FAQ reads like Smedley wrote it, not Brad of Verant. He was the one who always tried to justify internal game mechanics because of outside variables (ie people not having time, lives, etc...).

    Pantheon now reminds me of modern SoE, not a company trying to achieve what made EQ what it was. 


    achesoma
  • TanistTanist Member UncommonPosts: 272
    edited May 2020
    Kyleran said:
    You are at severe risk of tipping over into the fanboi column, with White Knight being on the near horizon.

    The original poster did not insult Tim, he stated his opinion that the decision to not include maps was poor as it did not improve the player or group experience, to which I might agree.

    Tim first comes back with a ”witty” remark which is his trade mark so all good.

    Instead of coming back with his reasoning on how it actually does improve either the player or group experience (perhaps because it doesn't) or some other facet of the overall game play he goes on to directly insult the poster for no good reason.

    I've grown weary of the overly snarky remarks and platitudes, he needs to grow up and start responding to his potential customers in a more professional manner.

    The gaming world already has enough leaders without any class or tact, we don't need one more.


    It is not an insult to state what Tim stated. 

    I grow tired of children who get upset because they were so sheltered to get upset at every little thing, to take personal offense as if they are being attacked when their ideas are shown to be lacking. 

    As I said, the poster was tone deaf, like many posters today on the internet who mouth off, then when responded to without praise to disagreement, get upset.

    Notice how you first start off this discussion, not with a disagreement, but an accusation that I am a "fan boi". This is the type of tone deaf comments I see from people. 

    You make an accusation, then go to defend without really providing any reasoning. Was that "fan boi" comment needed? Or did you get emotional and felt you needed to personally attack to make yourself feel better? 

    If you read that entire thread, Tim was quite polite to everyone, and gave measured response to those who began to attack. 

    That poster called his design "poor design" (it is a subjective topic, rather pretentious to openly proclaim such don't you think? I mean, disagree, sure... but to throw a tantrum on how they will not play the game, and then accuse that his designs are poor? Yeah... sorry not buying the innocent poster argument. 

    That poster argued against the design for personal reasons, counter to the concept that Tim was explaining. 

    Again, to get upset at him is to be overly sensitive and emotionally, devoid of logic. 
    KyleranIselinYashaX
  • tzervotzervo Member EpicPosts: 1,646
    edited May 2020
    Tim Anderson said:
    I get it. Not everyone can handle the world when they don’t have someone there to hold their hand. But for those who can manage? There’s a vast landscape to explore 
    There are plenty of ezmode games for you to play already on the market. We suggest enjoying those if you want something where everything is handed to you on a silver platter.
    Ours is a game for those who want to work for their rewards. Certainly not for everyone.
    Tanist said:
    It was, like I said... you are being overly sensitive. 
    --
    I grow tired of children who get upset because they were so sheltered to get upset at every little thing, to take personal offense as if they are being attacked when their ideas are shown to be lacking. 
    --
    Was that "fan boi" comment needed? Or did you get emotional and felt you needed to personally attack to make yourself feel better? 

    If you read that entire thread, Tim was quite polite to everyone, and gave measured response to those who began to attack. . 
    Am I the only one seeing the irony here?  >:)

    Scratch that: ironies. Is that a word?
    ChildoftheShadowsKyleranBeansnBreadYashaX
  • tzervotzervo Member EpicPosts: 1,646
    edited May 2020
    achesoma said:

    Regarding Maps:

    It's kind of strange how people have fixated so much on SoL not having a map when Pantheon doesn't have one either.
    Thing is, I used the map as an example to make a point about SoL lead's mentality and conduct, not as a main point or as a comparison to Pantheon, because people were singing ballads here about SoL lead's professionalism (for which I admitted they get cookie points for transparency and holding to their initial vision), and that shot off as a tangent.

    But what I mostly wanted to point out was that from the SoL guy's responses:

    1) He seems to prioritize fluffing up his talk about not being ezmode over explaining their design rationale. He is more eager to show off how his game is the hardest and less handholdingy and to bang his chest about it. Fluff talk if you ask me :)

    2) He is acting as an arrogant condescending prick instead of a professional and a studio lead.

    Edit: removed some of my tangential bla bla
    Kyleranachesoma
  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 10,419
    Tanist said:
    delete5230 said:
    WoW @ChildoftheShadows Your all twisted up.


    <quote>
    "You know who also hasn't shown much? Saga of Lucemia!"

    Why should they show much ?.... You can play it !.... Actually play it !


    Now put that in your pipe and smoke it, and try and get yourself un-twisted :)

    They both seem to offer the same things, bud. Why should Pantheon show you much?

    Except, SoL is further along in its testing, has assigned a date for beta and release. 

    Pantheon did this in the past, missed several dates and now refuses to comment at all on their timeline. 

    Lets keep in mind they are still in pre-alpha and the last info we saw in 2019 said they were only 20% done with the game.

    So unless you find a square and a circle to be similar, they are not the same. 
    SoL is nearly 3 years beyond its initial release date..:
    Kylerantzervodcutbi001
  • TanistTanist Member UncommonPosts: 272
    tzervo said:
    Tim Anderson said:
    I get it. Not everyone can handle the world when they don’t have someone there to hold their hand. But for those who can manage? There’s a vast landscape to explore 
    There are plenty of ezmode games for you to play already on the market. We suggest enjoying those if you want something where everything is handed to you on a silver platter.
    Ours is a game for those who want to work for their rewards. Certainly not for everyone.
    Tanist said:
    It was, like I said... you are being overly sensitive. 
    --
    I grow tired of children who get upset because they were so sheltered to get upset at every little thing, to take personal offense as if they are being attacked when their ideas are shown to be lacking. 
    --
    Was that "fan boi" comment needed? Or did you get emotional and felt you needed to personally attack to make yourself feel better? 

    If you read that entire thread, Tim was quite polite to everyone, and gave measured response to those who began to attack. . 
    Am I the only one seeing the irony here?  >:)

    Scratch that: ironies. Is that a word?
    Am I upset? Do you really think I am?

    I am not the one who started the argument that someone was being... unprofessional.

    Nor did I accuse another poster of being a "fan boi" or "white knighting". Note those are personal accusations, not arguments of merit concerning the content.

    Then, here you come in and pick a few comments out of their context and claim irony?


    Alinsky, is that you?
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