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Pantheon and Saga of Lucimia

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  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 2,012
    Tanist said:
    Tanist said:
    Tanist said:
    Tanist said:
    Tanist said:
    Tanist said:
    I've seen more of Pantheon than Saga of Lucimia. I wonder if they're even working on it.
    Pantheon has been marketing a lot more (not sure that is a good use of time things considered) and while there are a lot more videos out there of play, a lot of them are just play over the same content they have released or various tech demos on "new" things they are implementing.

    This may or may not be a valid point you have, hard to say.

    Here is the list of videos of various pre-alpha to alpha footage for SoL

    https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=saga+of+lucimia+gameplay+

    So...

    While I understand to an extent your point about lacking the same level of media out as Pantheon, claiming that you are wondering if they are working on it is really just an argument that isn't very credible.

    Apparently this is your first delete thread. This is the argument he presents through every single one of his Pantheon threads (they're not showing enough) yet I've seen him praise SoL.

    The bottom line is game companies shouldn't show too much, spoilers and all, but if you're going to make an argument for one game, the same one should be made for others.
    My arguments stand on their own, irrelevant of Deletes comments. I explained my evaluation on both games and why I tend lean more to that of SoL. I merely commented your obviously dismissing comment about SoL as you promoted Pantheon. 
    /WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH
    Use your words, it is more intelligible that way. 
    I did, they flew right over your head.
    Intelligible worlds. When one makes no effort to explain their point, the have none and might as well make sounds like a dumb animal. 
    You quoted a post of sarcasm directed toward someone else. I told you as much, yet you still acted like what you had to say mattered, you dumb animal.
    1. When responding to someone, quote them. This avoids creating confusion. 

    2. Your sarcasm is also confusing. It implies that Delete's support for SoL and dislike for Pantheon is imbalanced. My point was that SoL is in better position than Pantheon . I am equally evaluating both and Delete seems to be making a similar conclusion, regardless of how poorly he argues its supporting premises. 


    3. When trying to clear up a miscommunication, one makes an effort to be more clear. You continued on in typical immature internet fashion with one liners.

    4. If you want to call out my behavior with an insult, by all means. If you want to call my arguments  with a derogatory name, have at it. That is fair game, but you again resorted to the argument of a kid on the internet by directly, personally attacking me, not my argument.






    I replied to the thread not to you. Feeling entitled much?
    So you are moving the goal posts it seems.

    First you say I responded to you when you were referring to someone else (hard to tell when you don't quote who you are responding to).

    Now you are saying you were responding to the thread, not a person? 

    Which is it? The thread or the person? I mean, you argued a whole line, smug one liners and all to proclaim the latter, but now you are saying you are responding to the thread?

    Thing is, if you are responding to the thread, that is fair game for response, so again, you are being confusing. 

    Problem with a lie is that you have to keep lying to cover for the previous lies. You keep digging yourself deeper and deeper.

    I think we are done though, it is obvious you have no real argument. 


    Holy shit! I responded to the thread, you know who started the thread?! DELETE did! You know who's always saying Pantheon must not be very far along if they don't show much? DELETE! You know who also hasn't shown much? Saga of Lucemia! 

    It's really really simple to put together. None of it had ANYTHING to do with you, sol, or Pantheon. Only Delete and his insufferable repetitive ranting about Pantheon that makes zero sense.

    Your right there nothing to discuss, because was never fucking discussing anything with you at all except for you're inability to realize this was not about you. 
    YashaXdcutbi001
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,736
    edited May 2020
    Tanist said:
    Tanist said:
    Tanist said:
    Tanist said:
    Tanist said:
    Tanist said:
    I've seen more of Pantheon than Saga of Lucimia. I wonder if they're even working on it.
    Pantheon has been marketing a lot more (not sure that is a good use of time things considered) and while there are a lot more videos out there of play, a lot of them are just play over the same content they have released or various tech demos on "new" things they are implementing.

    This may or may not be a valid point you have, hard to say.

    Here is the list of videos of various pre-alpha to alpha footage for SoL

    https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=saga+of+lucimia+gameplay+

    So...

    While I understand to an extent your point about lacking the same level of media out as Pantheon, claiming that you are wondering if they are working on it is really just an argument that isn't very credible.

    Apparently this is your first delete thread. This is the argument he presents through every single one of his Pantheon threads (they're not showing enough) yet I've seen him praise SoL.

    The bottom line is game companies shouldn't show too much, spoilers and all, but if you're going to make an argument for one game, the same one should be made for others.
    My arguments stand on their own, irrelevant of Deletes comments. I explained my evaluation on both games and why I tend lean more to that of SoL. I merely commented your obviously dismissing comment about SoL as you promoted Pantheon. 
    /WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH
    Use your words, it is more intelligible that way. 
    I did, they flew right over your head.
    Intelligible worlds. When one makes no effort to explain their point, the have none and might as well make sounds like a dumb animal. 
    You quoted a post of sarcasm directed toward someone else. I told you as much, yet you still acted like what you had to say mattered, you dumb animal.
    1. When responding to someone, quote them. This avoids creating confusion. 

    2. Your sarcasm is also confusing. It implies that Delete's support for SoL and dislike for Pantheon is imbalanced. My point was that SoL is in better position than Pantheon . I am equally evaluating both and Delete seems to be making a similar conclusion, regardless of how poorly he argues its supporting premises. 


    3. When trying to clear up a miscommunication, one makes an effort to be more clear. You continued on in typical immature internet fashion with one liners.

    4. If you want to call out my behavior with an insult, by all means. If you want to call my arguments  with a derogatory name, have at it. That is fair game, but you again resorted to the argument of a kid on the internet by directly, personally attacking me, not my argument.






    I replied to the thread not to you. Feeling entitled much?
    So you are moving the goal posts it seems.

    First you say I responded to you when you were referring to someone else (hard to tell when you don't quote who you are responding to).

    Now you are saying you were responding to the thread, not a person? 

    Which is it? The thread or the person? I mean, you argued a whole line, smug one liners and all to proclaim the latter, but now you are saying you are responding to the thread?

    Thing is, if you are responding to the thread, that is fair game for response, so again, you are being confusing. 

    Problem with a lie is that you have to keep lying to cover for the previous lies. You keep digging yourself deeper and deeper.

    I think we are done though, it is obvious you have no real argument. 


    Holy shit! I responded to the thread, you know who started the thread?! DELETE did! You know who's always saying Pantheon must not be very far along if they don't show much? DELETE! You know who also hasn't shown much? Saga of Lucemia! 

    It's really really simple to put together. None of it had ANYTHING to do with you, sol, or Pantheon. Only Delete and his insufferable repetitive ranting about Pantheon that makes zero sense.

    Your right there nothing to discuss, because was never fucking discussing anything with you at all except for you're inability to realize this was not about you. 
    WoW @ChildoftheShadows Your all twisted up.


    <quote>
    "You know who also hasn't shown much? Saga of Lucemia!"

    Why should they show much ?.... You can play it !.... Actually play it !


    Now put that in your pipe and smoke it, and try and get yourself un-twisted :)

  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 2,012
    Tanist said:
    Tanist said:
    Tanist said:
    Tanist said:
    Tanist said:
    Tanist said:
    I've seen more of Pantheon than Saga of Lucimia. I wonder if they're even working on it.
    Pantheon has been marketing a lot more (not sure that is a good use of time things considered) and while there are a lot more videos out there of play, a lot of them are just play over the same content they have released or various tech demos on "new" things they are implementing.

    This may or may not be a valid point you have, hard to say.

    Here is the list of videos of various pre-alpha to alpha footage for SoL

    https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=saga+of+lucimia+gameplay+

    So...

    While I understand to an extent your point about lacking the same level of media out as Pantheon, claiming that you are wondering if they are working on it is really just an argument that isn't very credible.

    Apparently this is your first delete thread. This is the argument he presents through every single one of his Pantheon threads (they're not showing enough) yet I've seen him praise SoL.

    The bottom line is game companies shouldn't show too much, spoilers and all, but if you're going to make an argument for one game, the same one should be made for others.
    My arguments stand on their own, irrelevant of Deletes comments. I explained my evaluation on both games and why I tend lean more to that of SoL. I merely commented your obviously dismissing comment about SoL as you promoted Pantheon. 
    /WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH
    Use your words, it is more intelligible that way. 
    I did, they flew right over your head.
    Intelligible worlds. When one makes no effort to explain their point, the have none and might as well make sounds like a dumb animal. 
    You quoted a post of sarcasm directed toward someone else. I told you as much, yet you still acted like what you had to say mattered, you dumb animal.
    1. When responding to someone, quote them. This avoids creating confusion. 

    2. Your sarcasm is also confusing. It implies that Delete's support for SoL and dislike for Pantheon is imbalanced. My point was that SoL is in better position than Pantheon . I am equally evaluating both and Delete seems to be making a similar conclusion, regardless of how poorly he argues its supporting premises. 


    3. When trying to clear up a miscommunication, one makes an effort to be more clear. You continued on in typical immature internet fashion with one liners.

    4. If you want to call out my behavior with an insult, by all means. If you want to call my arguments  with a derogatory name, have at it. That is fair game, but you again resorted to the argument of a kid on the internet by directly, personally attacking me, not my argument.






    I replied to the thread not to you. Feeling entitled much?
    So you are moving the goal posts it seems.

    First you say I responded to you when you were referring to someone else (hard to tell when you don't quote who you are responding to).

    Now you are saying you were responding to the thread, not a person? 

    Which is it? The thread or the person? I mean, you argued a whole line, smug one liners and all to proclaim the latter, but now you are saying you are responding to the thread?

    Thing is, if you are responding to the thread, that is fair game for response, so again, you are being confusing. 

    Problem with a lie is that you have to keep lying to cover for the previous lies. You keep digging yourself deeper and deeper.

    I think we are done though, it is obvious you have no real argument. 


    Holy shit! I responded to the thread, you know who started the thread?! DELETE did! You know who's always saying Pantheon must not be very far along if they don't show much? DELETE! You know who also hasn't shown much? Saga of Lucemia! 

    It's really really simple to put together. None of it had ANYTHING to do with you, sol, or Pantheon. Only Delete and his insufferable repetitive ranting about Pantheon that makes zero sense.

    Your right there nothing to discuss, because was never fucking discussing anything with you at all except for you're inability to realize this was not about you. 
    WoW @ChildoftheShadows Your all twisted up.


    <quote>
    "You know who also hasn't shown much? Saga of Lucemia!"

    Why should they show much ?.... You can play it !.... Actually play it !


    Now put that in your pipe and smoke it, and try and get yourself un-twisted :)

    They both seem to offer the same things, bud. Why should Pantheon show you much?
  • TanistTanist Member UncommonPosts: 272
    Holy shit! I responded to the thread, you know who started the thread?! DELETE did! You know who's always saying Pantheon must not be very far along if they don't show much? DELETE! You know who also hasn't shown much? Saga of Lucemia! 

    It's really really simple to put together. None of it had ANYTHING to do with you, sol, or Pantheon. Only Delete and his insufferable repetitive ranting about Pantheon that makes zero sense.

    Your right there nothing to discuss, because was never fucking discussing anything with you at all except for you're inability to realize this was not about you. 
    How do I know you are talking to me or him? Do you know how many posters respond without quoting? I was discussing with someone else, you popped in and made a stupid flippant remark and I am supposed to know it is the thread or you responding to me?

    Pro-Tip, quote the person you are talking to so people don't have to divine your intent. 

    Seriously, learn to post! FFS
  • TanistTanist Member UncommonPosts: 272
    delete5230 said:
    WoW @ChildoftheShadows Your all twisted up.


    <quote>
    "You know who also hasn't shown much? Saga of Lucemia!"

    Why should they show much ?.... You can play it !.... Actually play it !


    Now put that in your pipe and smoke it, and try and get yourself un-twisted :)

    They both seem to offer the same things, bud. Why should Pantheon show you much?

    Except, SoL is further along in its testing, has assigned a date for beta and release. 

    Pantheon did this in the past, missed several dates and now refuses to comment at all on their timeline. 

    Lets keep in mind they are still in pre-alpha and the last info we saw in 2019 said they were only 20% done with the game.

    So unless you find a square and a circle to be similar, they are not the same. 
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 38,156
    Kyleran said:
    Kyleran said:
    Tanist said:
    Kyleran said:






    I will agree, Pantheon is more of a ghost effort at this point with few discernable milestones being displayed publically, which is one reason why I have them very high on the list of games likely to fail soon.

    I don't believe they have the funding they need to realize their dream unless the go the early access route or perhaps even release their Project Farfenal or what ever it's called as a playable module or even single player game to raise more cash.

    What makes you think Pantheon doesn't have enough funding?

    They are very private about their financial state, so all we have to go by is their actions.

    Based on all of the actions of the Pantheon team to this point, it leads me to conclude they are doing okay financially.

    1) they aren't selling pay-to-win items in a cash shop
    2) they aren't publishing a release date
    3) they've discontinued old pledge packages and increased prices for rewards over the years

    To me, none of these actions remind me of a company struggling financially. If they really needed more pledge money, then you'd think they would do the opposite of these points.
    Except that....they've always been fairly transparent on when they received investor funding in the past so I am assuming no recent announcements equates to nothing new as indie dev teams typically shout any good funding news from the roof tops, i.e. CU, CF, SC and even SoL.

    September's newsletter is when we found out they didn't have all the money they need to complete development, as seen in this excerpt. (emphasis mine)

    ”I wanted to take a moment to talk a little about how Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen is funded, and to introduce our newest revenue generator.

    As you probably already know, the bulk of our funding comes directly from you, through crowdfunding. Your pledges allow us to keep the lights on and keep the team fed.”

    He goes on to discuss the  pledge tiers.

    ”...so we have a whole slew of different pledge rewards on offer.”

    Wrapping up with, 

    ”We’re happy to say that you can start gearing up with Pantheon today at our new Pantheon Merch Store! Here’s the great bit: every bit of profit from the store goes into making Terminus a reality.”

    Burn rates are a real thing, unless the team is working for free, (as the owners of SoL have been) money is being consumed at a steady rate so if the new, incoming backer funding comes to a halt, well, you likely will get what occurred with COE recently.

    Other clues, four year employee, crafting dev lead,  left saying while he enjoyed his time on Pantheon working remotely all of the time had begun to wear on him.

    I once found a photo of their ”office" but it was devoid of any people or evidence of activity, could have been a stock photo for all I could tell. I suspect there is no office or if so, few work there. While not necessarily a requirement to deliver a game, not having one is a solid red flag in my book.

    Brad's tragic death took away their key ”front man,” which almost every other indie effort has and whose key role is to inspire others to invest in their vision.

    Again, not fatal but it does further reduce their likelihood of interesting outside investors and likely discouraged some backers who may no longer believe or are waiting see if this ship will stay the course. 

    This from the December newsletter clearly shows their need to solicit more funding.

    ”Pantheon is largely crowdfunded, and we also have some amazing angel investors. One of those investors has opened an investment syndicate to pool smaller amounts for investment in Pantheon.

    Visionary Realms does not manage this syndicate, but we would be happy to connect you with them if you email [email protected].

    We also welcome direct investments into Visionary Realms for accredited investors. Every dollar goes directly to moving Pantheon closer to release.”

    Yes, I know these announcements are couched with blah speak about money to be used to accelerate (hah) development, but I've long since learned to cut through such BS and know if these funding taps slow too much, they likely will push out early what they have to date, or close the doors.

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/newsletter/2019_september_underwraps/

    http://www.pantheonmmo.com/newsletter/2019_december_producers_letter/


    None of that screams a desperate company about to run out of money to me.

    Yes, Brad's death was very tragic and IMO a big blow to the project.

    However:

    1) accepting pledge money and saying how valuable it is,
    2) opening a high-priced merch store and stating the profit goes to help fund the project,
    3) the project taking longer than YOU expected (we don't know their internal timeline or burn rate)
    4) a long-time dev leaving the project due to remote work burnout,
    5) having a remote team (since the beginning),
    6) accepting investor money,

    none of that is evidence of a company about to run out of money to me. Am I missing something?

    Obviously, if the pledge and/or investment money they're relying on goes away they will be in financial trouble. But what leads you to conclude that actually is happening?

    I think you're drawing conclusions from other crowdfunding failures (CoE) and unfairly projecting them onto this game.
    Actually I'm looking at the crowd funding efforts which appear to be better off financially, such as CF, SC and Dual Universe.

    CU is also showing evidence of struggling with their sudden shift towards delivering a new and different game before their flagship title, even implying the it's delivery schedule is tied to the market  of success of Ragnarok.

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing ESO - Blackwood at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • UtinniUtinni Member EpicPosts: 2,064
    One game has climbing the other doesn't. I'm not even sure how anyone can argue past those facts.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 38,156
    Utinni said:
    One game has climbing the other doesn't. I'm not even sure how anyone can argue past those facts.
    But what really matters is...does either game have jumping?
    YashaX

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing ESO - Blackwood at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 15,832
    Kyleran said:
    Utinni said:
    One game has climbing the other doesn't. I'm not even sure how anyone can argue past those facts.
    But what really matters is...does either game have jumping?
    You both have it wrong. Being able to sit down on the chairs in the game is the true measure. 
    YashaXKyleran
    "I don't wait for games. Games wait for me."
    -- CHUCK NORRIS

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • TanistTanist Member UncommonPosts: 272
    edited May 2020
    I thought I would add this... because it was a point some made about what a certain stage of development was for the game. Here is a basic run down from SoL. 

    This was their Stage 2 post

    https://sagaoflucimia.com/forums/index.php?threads/development-stage-two.974/#post-6019

    This is the Stage 3 post

    https://sagaoflucimia.com/forums/index.php?threads/closed-alpha-stage-three.1141/

    It pretty much answers pretty clearly their plans, timelines, expectations, current and future stages, what they are, etc...

    Pantheon is nowhere near this transparent or organized. 

    Read both, and you will see exactly where they are in development, the details, the systems they have in place, the business affiliates they are pulling in, etc... 

    Seriously, for a first time venture, these guys act like seasoned professionals.  Yeah, I am going to say... there is no contest here, Pantheon isn't even on the same level.
    achesomatzervoTimukasKylerandelete5230
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
    Who would I have to bribe, beg, or sleep with to get you to stop with the 5 mile long quotes within quotes? I'm logged in from my phone and I think you broke my finger from all the scrolling.
    achesomatzervoGladDog

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • tzervotzervo Member EpicPosts: 1,581
    edited May 2020
    Tanist said:
    I thought I would add this... because it was a point some made about what a certain stage of development was for the game. Here is a basic run down from SoL. 

    This was their Stage 2 post

    https://sagaoflucimia.com/forums/index.php?threads/development-stage-two.974/#post-6019

    This is the Stage 3 post

    https://sagaoflucimia.com/forums/index.php?threads/closed-alpha-stage-three.1141/

    It pretty much answers pretty clearly their plans, timelines, expectations, current and future stages, what they are, etc...

    Pantheon is nowhere near this transparent or organized. 

    Read both, and you will see exactly where they are in development, the details, the systems they have in place, the business affiliates they are pulling in, etc... 

    Seriously, for a first time venture, these guys act like seasoned professionals.  Yeah, I am going to say... there is no contest here, Pantheon isn't even on the same level.
    On one hand they are more transparent (as per the links you gave) and give more detailed reports on their progress and this is commendable.

    On the other hand they conflate lack of QoL features on their design with difficulty, and this shows either inexperience or lack of resources. And when they are challenged with this their lead becomes patronising and condescending, which shows unprofessionalism. See here: 

    https://massivelyop.com/2020/03/23/saga-of-lucimia-shows-off-over-two-hours-of-stage-three-alpha-gameplay/#comments

    as an example. Here their lead is challenged for his choice to not include a map. Although I see his point in trying to force/increase immersion:

    1) He is confusing this as "not being ezmode". I play two MMOs these days: EVE and Screeps (where you actually have to code your colony AI). Both have maps and I would be willing to bet they are harder than SoL.

    2) When challenged with this he is downright unprofessional and condescending:
    I get it. Not everyone can handle the world when they don’t have someone there to hold their hand. But for those who can manage? There’s a vast landscape to explore :)
    There are plenty of ezmode games for you to play already on the market. We suggest enjoying those if you want something where everything is handed to you on a silver platter.
    Ours is a game for those who want to work for their rewards. Certainly not for everyone.

    Not invested in either game yet (I never do until there is a no-wipe date announcement), but SoL lead's conduct already inspires more contempt than confidence for me.

    IselinYashaXimmodiumdcutbi001
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 15,832
    tzervo said:

    On the other hand they conflate lack of QoL features on their design with difficulty, and this shows either inexperience or lack of resources. And when they are challenged with this their lead becomes patronising and condescending, which shows unprofessionalism. See here: 


    He's definitely not alone in that thought. Just have a look at the death penalty thread for evidence of how many people conflate QOL with less difficult :)

    And yes he can totally be an arrogant dick when challenged on anything. I get the impression that he's more comfortable with forum PvP than development.
    YashaXimmodium
    "I don't wait for games. Games wait for me."
    -- CHUCK NORRIS

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • tzervotzervo Member EpicPosts: 1,581
    Iselin said:
    tzervo said:

    On the other hand they conflate lack of QoL features on their design with difficulty, and this shows either inexperience or lack of resources. And when they are challenged with this their lead becomes patronising and condescending, which shows unprofessionalism. See here: 


    He's definitely not alone in that thought. Just have a look at the death penalty thread for evidence of how many people conflate QOL with less difficult :)

    HA! Sneaky, I see what you did there :P

    But I'm still gonna stand by my opinion and arguments on the death penalty :)
    Iselin
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 15,832
    tzervo said:
    Iselin said:
    tzervo said:

    On the other hand they conflate lack of QoL features on their design with difficulty, and this shows either inexperience or lack of resources. And when they are challenged with this their lead becomes patronising and condescending, which shows unprofessionalism. See here: 


    He's definitely not alone in that thought. Just have a look at the death penalty thread for evidence of how many people conflate QOL with less difficult :)

    HA! Sneaky, I see what you did there :P

    But I'm still gonna stand by my opinion and arguments on the death penalty :)
    I wouldn't expect you to.

    You draw the line at maps. I draw it long before that :)
    tzervo
    "I don't wait for games. Games wait for me."
    -- CHUCK NORRIS

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    Tanist said:
    I thought I would add this... because it was a point some made about what a certain stage of development was for the game. Here is a basic run down from SoL. 

    This was their Stage 2 post

    https://sagaoflucimia.com/forums/index.php?threads/development-stage-two.974/#post-6019

    This is the Stage 3 post

    https://sagaoflucimia.com/forums/index.php?threads/closed-alpha-stage-three.1141/

    It pretty much answers pretty clearly their plans, timelines, expectations, current and future stages, what they are, etc...

    Pantheon is nowhere near this transparent or organized. 

    Read both, and you will see exactly where they are in development, the details, the systems they have in place, the business affiliates they are pulling in, etc... 

    Seriously, for a first time venture, these guys act like seasoned professionals.  Yeah, I am going to say... there is no contest here, Pantheon isn't even on the same level.

    I really like the way SoL is being managed, and agree Pantheon would do well to adopt some of that transparency.

    That said, you're right about them not being on the same level. Watch the most recent videos of Pantheon and that of Saga of Lucimia, the depth and quality of Pantheon far exceeds that of SOL.

    Yet if I were a betting man, I'd bet on SoL to be the more likely game to launch. Much lower bar, and closer to their goal.

    However, I'd also bet exponentially more that Pantheon would be the game I'd play after launch, should they both make it there.

    I'm looking forward to both for a different experience, and wish them both luck.
    KyleranAmatheTimukasdcutbi001


  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,736
    tzervo said:
    Tanist said:
    I thought I would add this... because it was a point some made about what a certain stage of development was for the game. Here is a basic run down from SoL. 

    This was their Stage 2 post

    https://sagaoflucimia.com/forums/index.php?threads/development-stage-two.974/#post-6019

    This is the Stage 3 post

    https://sagaoflucimia.com/forums/index.php?threads/closed-alpha-stage-three.1141/

    It pretty much answers pretty clearly their plans, timelines, expectations, current and future stages, what they are, etc...

    Pantheon is nowhere near this transparent or organized. 

    Read both, and you will see exactly where they are in development, the details, the systems they have in place, the business affiliates they are pulling in, etc... 

    Seriously, for a first time venture, these guys act like seasoned professionals.  Yeah, I am going to say... there is no contest here, Pantheon isn't even on the same level.
    On one hand they are more transparent (as per the links you gave) and give more detailed reports on their progress and this is commendable.

    On the other hand they conflate lack of QoL features on their design with difficulty, and this shows either inexperience or lack of resources. And when they are challenged with this their lead becomes patronising and condescending, which shows unprofessionalism. See here: 

    https://massivelyop.com/2020/03/23/saga-of-lucimia-shows-off-over-two-hours-of-stage-three-alpha-gameplay/#comments

    as an example. Here their lead is challenged for his choice to not include a map. Although I see his point in trying to force/increase immersion:

    1) He is confusing this as "not being ezmode". I play two MMOs these days: EVE and Screeps (where you actually have to code your colony AI). Both have maps and I would be willing to bet they are harder than SoL.

    2) When challenged with this he is downright unprofessional and condescending:
    I get it. Not everyone can handle the world when they don’t have someone there to hold their hand. But for those who can manage? There’s a vast landscape to explore :)
    There are plenty of ezmode games for you to play already on the market. We suggest enjoying those if you want something where everything is handed to you on a silver platter.
    Ours is a game for those who want to work for their rewards. Certainly not for everyone.

    Not invested in either game yet (I never do until there is a no-wipe date announcement), but SoL lead's conduct already inspires more contempt than confidence for me.

    Ha,
    And they give more detail reports.  VR doesn't give any. 

    Downright unprofessional and condescending in their forum ?
    They guy is asking for maps and 'easy mode".... their game is not like that at all, infact their plenty of games like that.  WELL OVER 200 !

    Condescending ?.... He is telling it like it is.  Developers are creating this game because they hate what mmorpg's have become, yet the guy is asking for more of the same.

    It's like going to a truck dealership and asking for a car. 
  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 6,588
    I like Saga of Lucimia a lot, Delete at least edit your title and spell the name of the game properly.

    The game reminds me a lot of early Everquest it has the same slow sense which I like a lot. 

  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,736
    kitarad said:
    I like Saga of Lucimia a lot, Delete at least edit your title and spell the name of the game properly.

    The game reminds me a lot of early Everquest it has the same slow sense which I like a lot. 
    Done.

    In earlier access several months ago, developers were waiting around the edge of town taking people on tours around the surrounding area that was quite large.

    Close to the village was the bandit camp, our first stop and they were hard to beat. Then we ventured deep and things got much more scary. The visual draw distance was excellent and they were able to spot things at a distance where I couldn't yet.  Several mobs we had to go around because they would be impossible, but some we dangerously took on and they were a hard challenge even with a few developers in our group. 

    Day and night cycles were fast and darkness came fast. On discord developers said they were planning on tweaking that. 

    One thing I didn't like is darkness was very dark and everyone carried a torch by default. If I recall they planned to change the light from the torch distance, but unsure if they would change how dark it was.... Very scary and creepy in a good way I think but still not sure I like that. 

    Eventually we found ourselfs back at the inn.... It was a good feeling to be back home after that scary adventure even with developers for our protection.... Can't imagine being with a group of noobs.  



    I didn't play P1999 very long, but the adventure was the same maybe better because of the updated UI, however it was still rough and needed work. 

    This was several months ago.  Now that my health is getting better... I'm looking forward to playing again :) 
    kitaradKyleranachesomaTimukas
  • TanistTanist Member UncommonPosts: 272
    edited May 2020
    tzervo said:
    Tanist said:
    I thought I would add this... because it was a point some made about what a certain stage of development was for the game. Here is a basic run down from SoL. 

    This was their Stage 2 post

    https://sagaoflucimia.com/forums/index.php?threads/development-stage-two.974/#post-6019

    This is the Stage 3 post

    https://sagaoflucimia.com/forums/index.php?threads/closed-alpha-stage-three.1141/

    It pretty much answers pretty clearly their plans, timelines, expectations, current and future stages, what they are, etc...

    Pantheon is nowhere near this transparent or organized. 

    Read both, and you will see exactly where they are in development, the details, the systems they have in place, the business affiliates they are pulling in, etc... 

    Seriously, for a first time venture, these guys act like seasoned professionals.  Yeah, I am going to say... there is no contest here, Pantheon isn't even on the same level.
    On one hand they are more transparent (as per the links you gave) and give more detailed reports on their progress and this is commendable.

    On the other hand they conflate lack of QoL features on their design with difficulty, and this shows either inexperience or lack of resources. And when they are challenged with this their lead becomes patronising and condescending, which shows unprofessionalism. See here: 

    https://massivelyop.com/2020/03/23/saga-of-lucimia-shows-off-over-two-hours-of-stage-three-alpha-gameplay/#comments

    as an example. Here their lead is challenged for his choice to not include a map. Although I see his point in trying to force/increase immersion:

    1) He is confusing this as "not being ezmode". I play two MMOs these days: EVE and Screeps (where you actually have to code your colony AI). Both have maps and I would be willing to bet they are harder than SoL.

    2) When challenged with this he is downright unprofessional and condescending:
    I get it. Not everyone can handle the world when they don’t have someone there to hold their hand. But for those who can manage? There’s a vast landscape to explore :)
    There are plenty of ezmode games for you to play already on the market. We suggest enjoying those if you want something where everything is handed to you on a silver platter.
    Ours is a game for those who want to work for their rewards. Certainly not for everyone.

    Not invested in either game yet (I never do until there is a no-wipe date announcement), but SoL lead's conduct already inspires more contempt than confidence for me.

    I think you are dismissing the legitimate game play arguments against maps by claiming they are simple QoL aspects. There are many valid arguments as to why a map provides more "ease" in play , removes various responsibilities of the player, and takes away numerous game play features that provide depth to the game by not having them (spells, abilities, etc...). 

    As for his response, why not provide the entire context of the response?


    Covynant001

    Never played a MMORPG without some sort of map, compass and /loc system, and I go all the way back to Lineage 1 the Bloodpledge.

    Not about to start now.

    Poor design decision IMO, having nothing to do with improving the player or group experience.

    Not expecting quest markers, mini maps or lines to targets, just basic orienteering tools found even in most old school games including EQ1 (at some point) to help a player understand where they are in relationship to the game world.


    Tim Anderson

    Good luck navigating the real world when Google Maps/GPS fail :)

    There are many, many ways for players to understand where they are in relationship to the game world. None of them require handholding.

    Landmarks. The position of the sun (it moves the same way in our game world as it does in the real world). Directions that the NPCs give you.

    I get it. Not everyone can handle the world when they don’t have someone there to hold their hand. But for those who can manage? There’s a vast landscape to explore :)


    The poster was claiming the decision to have no maps was a "poor design decision" and claiming it had nothing to do with the player group experience.

    That claim is subjective as it serves the posters position, not everyone else. I agree with Tim, and for many of the same reasons he would argue as such. This is not a "poor design decision", it is merely a design decision that does not fit in line with that players expectations. 

    I think his response was appropriate and I think you are being a bit too sensitive. He made a slight in the same manner that the poster did (I find it odd how many people online are tone deaf to their own demeanor, yet throw tantrums if they aren't praised in their opinion. 

    His response was logical and on key for his point. 

    If anything, I am glad they are taking a hard line stance against mainstream. It is better for them to be upfront to the players and make their stance clear than it is to pander to numerous complaints of subjective demands. It is about time a game designer makes "their game" and offers it to the world. After all, a painter doesn't ask the viewer how they should paint, they produce their art and people either appreciate it or they don't. This is one of those issues and it is refreshing to see a developer stand up for their vision rather than pandering to the crowd. 

    This is one of the key reasons why I no longer have interest in Pantheon. They started pandering to the players, rather than holding to their original vision. 

    edit:

    Yeah, after reading through that whole thread with Tim and the posters, he was quite polite. Those posters were belligerent children throwing insults all around. They deserved to be treating in far worse fashion than they were. My hat goes off to Tim for his restraint. 
    Post edited by Tanist on
  • TanistTanist Member UncommonPosts: 272
    edited May 2020
    Dullahan said:
    Tanist said:
    I thought I would add this... because it was a point some made about what a certain stage of development was for the game. Here is a basic run down from SoL. 

    This was their Stage 2 post

    https://sagaoflucimia.com/forums/index.php?threads/development-stage-two.974/#post-6019

    This is the Stage 3 post

    https://sagaoflucimia.com/forums/index.php?threads/closed-alpha-stage-three.1141/

    It pretty much answers pretty clearly their plans, timelines, expectations, current and future stages, what they are, etc...

    Pantheon is nowhere near this transparent or organized. 

    Read both, and you will see exactly where they are in development, the details, the systems they have in place, the business affiliates they are pulling in, etc... 

    Seriously, for a first time venture, these guys act like seasoned professionals.  Yeah, I am going to say... there is no contest here, Pantheon isn't even on the same level.

    I really like the way SoL is being managed, and agree Pantheon would do well to adopt some of that transparency.

    That said, you're right about them not being on the same level. Watch the most recent videos of Pantheon and that of Saga of Lucimia, the depth and quality of Pantheon far exceeds that of SOL.

    Yet if I were a betting man, I'd bet on SoL to be the more likely game to launch. Much lower bar, and closer to their goal.

    However, I'd also bet exponentially more that Pantheon would be the game I'd play after launch, should they both make it there.

    I'm looking forward to both for a different experience, and wish them both luck.

    Pantheon slowly changed from their original goals. They gave more and more to mainstream designs, losing what I think was important to what made games like EQ so enjoyable. 

    What SoL has done is create a solid vision and pushed on to it with clear force. They took the idea of what they think works, honed it and pushed to see it through. EQ was not an overly complex game at release, yet till this day it still carries some of that past charm. 

    If a game came out today that looked exactly like early EQ, played exactly like early EQ with all its similar features, I would play it in an instant and pay 40 bucks a month for it. While some things of Pantheon are interesting, I find many of its features are counter to what made EQ what it was, so I have lost interest. SoL, even with is simplicity excites me as EQ did. The more I read about it, the more I am impressed with its goals. 

    I agree, SoL is much more likely to reach a completion. That also means, that it has the potential to grow after release, something a complex game that never is released can not. 
    delete5230Timukas
  • TanistTanist Member UncommonPosts: 272
    Ha,
    And they give more detail reports.  VR doesn't give any. 

    Downright unprofessional and condescending in their forum ?
    They guy is asking for maps and 'easy mode".... their game is not like that at all, infact their plenty of games like that.  WELL OVER 200 !

    Condescending ?.... He is telling it like it is.  Developers are creating this game because they hate what mmorpg's have become, yet the guy is asking for more of the same.

    It's like going to a truck dealership and asking for a car. 
    Yeah, that is one thing I started to lose respect of Pantheon over. After all the years in the early forums, of them "settling" their design direction, even directing people to past threads or FAQ's which settled it, they now constantly poll people in the forums on mainstream design concepts. 

    That is when I began to see the warning signs. It does not do well for the games development to keep encouraging the people who conflict with the design goals. It gives them false hope, and it discourages the audience that was originally sought.

    I know many who were excited about Pantheon early on, many donated, but most of them have lost interest with many of them likely not to even play it past the trial, if that. 


  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 2,012
    I'm beginning to think you're only here to promote SoL on a Pantheon forum. Perhaps the mods should start paying attention to that.
    dcutbi001
  • TanistTanist Member UncommonPosts: 272
    edited May 2020
    I'm beginning to think you're only here to promote SoL on a Pantheon forum. Perhaps the mods should start paying attention to that.
    That isn't thinking your doing, that is pining. 

    I mean, it isn't a very intelligent argument to make considering the entire point of this thread was to compare both. 

    By the way...

    I supported pantheon with my own money? You? 

    Also, I have yet to donate to SoL.

    Guess you will have to come up with some other accusation. 

    Maybe you can call me a dumb animal like you did before. Maybe the mods should look at your behavior? Hmmm?

    Timukas
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 2,012
    Tanist said:
    I'm beginning to think you're only here to promote SoL on a Pantheon forum. Perhaps the mods should start paying attention to that.
    That isn't thinking your doing, that is pining. 

    I mean, it isn't a very intelligent argument to make considering the entire point of this thread was to compare both. 

    By the way...

    I supported pantheon with my own money? You? 

    Also, I have yet to donate to SoL.

    Guess you will have to come up with some other accusation. 

    Maybe you can call me a dumb animal like you did before. Maybe the mods should look at your behavior? Hmmm?

    Did I quote you? 
    BeansnBread
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