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Ashes of Creation - May 2020 Update

jahlonjahlon Member UncommonPosts: 381

A little update for people who are following or interested in Ashes of Creation

Alpha 1 Testing

Alpha 1 Testing is going to happen in 2020.   The testing is now phases, with a QA/Stress test period preceding each phase.  This has come with some grumblings from people about having purchased a Kickstarter package that came with “earliest possible access” only to find out that the testing access has been put into phases.

I see both sides of this argument.  On one hand, people did pledge with the “earliest possible” in mind, however, I also understand that Intrepid was a rookie company when they laid out their original testing (and release) schedule.  The last thing they want is 10,000 Alpha Testers slamming into a server and having issues and not being able to figure out what the cause of the issues are.  I mean, look at Star Citizen and their free fly event.  People suffering six-hour queues unable to get in.  This is a game that’s been in development for six years with hundreds of millions of dollars in development and they are having issues.  

So while there can be some grumblings about the testing, I applaud Intrepid for being open and honest about it.  Since their PI people are under NDA, they could have just let them test without ever telling people what the plan was. 

Right now the schedule is as follows:

  • Phoenix Initiative Testers - Staring May 2020
  • Braver of Worlds (Kickstarter or Summer Backer) Testers- Summer 2020
  • Intrepid Pack (Webpage packs) Testers - Fall 2020.

The PI test will be under NDA.  The BOW test will more than likely start under NDA, and then if the major issues are worked out, it may come off of NDA, or the NDA may remain in place until the fall when Alpha 1 is out of QA/Stress testing and officially starts.

Game Development

Intrepid Studios continue to make progress despite the California lockdown.  In March they showed a little over an hour of live developer gameplay.  In April they showed off some pre-recorded footage of the Alpha 1 Environment as well.  Through the month of May the owner has been leaking little clips of footage.    

The overall consensus from the community is that the graphics are much improved, but the animations still need work.  Intrepid has acknowledged this and affirmed that this is still technically Pre-Alpha Footage, and that many more art and animation passes will occur before launch.

For people who see the UI and wonder if it's the final one, the answer is no. Ryan Pearson, formerly of Blizzard, has joined the Intrepid Team as the Senior UI Artist.  He showcased some just ideas of new UI work in January, and Intrepid has continuously stated that the UI is a placeholder.  

For a quick rundown on the graphics then and now, I put together a video that does a lot of side by side comparison. 

Other

I am happy to answer any questions about Ashes of Creation, collect any feedback and pass it along to Intrepid.  If you are looking for more information I invite you to https://www.ashes101.com/ which is my website covering the game 

Or you can swing by the community wiki at https://ashesofcreation.wiki/


itchmon
«1

Comments

  • jahlonjahlon Member UncommonPosts: 381
    Going to toss this one in here as well, since its still May.  

    Things we got from the livestream today

    An amazing Freehold video (should check that out)
    Details about Caravans and how they will function over water
    A look at the waterfalls (another process of higher graphics with lower impact on performance)
    A good round of Q&A

    Plus, Intrepid is doing a bonus livestream tomorrow showing off Alpha 1 footage.  



  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,121
    Are they compensating the Kickstarter people that bought packages that promised entry to the "earliest possible access"?

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • jahlonjahlon Member UncommonPosts: 381
    Are they compensating the Kickstarter people that bought packages that promised entry to the "earliest possible access"?

    I mean I'm not sure why they would need compensation.

    From Kickstarter three groups of people got access to Alpha 1 with the "earliest possible access"

    Phoenix Initiative
    Leader of Men
    Braver of Worlds

    Back in 2017 when they did their KS their intention was to open up their Alpha 1 on a set date to everyone and push forward.  That same year during their Alpha 0 they figured out very quickly that issues are going to happen.  The dreaded Windmill Boss causes hours and hours of issues.  

    In 2018/2019 they learned that slamming servers with hundreds of people isn't a good way to know exactly what isn't working.

    So, the KS people are being staggered on their entry during the Alpha 1 Pre-Testing.  Everyone from Kickstarter gets in before any of the other Alpha 1 buyers who have Intrepid Packs.

    They detailed out the change earlier this year in the Creative Director letter.

    I mean people can be pissed off and angry, and I'm not going to try and tell them to calm down.  

    However, Intrepid could have easily just just used their Alpha 0 testers who are already Under NDA and then said "Well its not Alpha 1"

    I don't think they had a good path to get out of the minefield they laid for themselves.  The only way through it, was through it.   
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,121
    edited May 30
    jahlon said:
    Are they compensating the Kickstarter people that bought packages that promised entry to the "earliest possible access"?

    I mean I'm not sure why they would need compensation.


    Maybe because they sold people something saying "Earliest possible access" and then did not give them access to the earliest test?

    It seems self-explanatory to me.  And whether it's the "right" decision to the company is irrelevant.  If you sell something to someone, then deliver it.  if you cannot, then you should offer them SOMETHING to make up for it.

    GdemamiKylerantzervo

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,165
    Good write up, thanks for sharing a summary of the issues for those of us not inclined to watch videos very often.
    itchmon

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,165
    jahlon said:

    A little update for people who are following or interested in Ashes of Creation

    Alpha 1 Testing

    Alpha 1 Testing is going to happen in 2020.   The testing is now phases, with a QA/Stress test period preceding each phase.  This has come with some grumblings from people about having purchased a Kickstarter package that came with “earliest possible access” only to find out that the testing access has been put into phases.

    I see both sides of this argument.  On one hand, people did pledge with the “earliest possible” in mind, however, I also understand that Intrepid was a rookie company when they laid out their original testing (and release) schedule.  The last thing they want is 10,000 Alpha Testers slamming into a server and having issues and not being able to figure out what the cause of the issues are.  I mean, look at Star Citizen and their free fly event.  People suffering six-hour queues unable to get in.  This is a game that’s been in development for six years with hundreds of millions of dollars in development and they are having issues.  

    So while there can be some grumblings about the testing, I applaud Intrepid for being open and honest about it.  Since their PI people are under NDA, they could have just let them test without ever telling people what the plan was. 

    Right now the schedule is as follows:

    • Phoenix Initiative Testers - Staring May 2020
    • Braver of Worlds (Kickstarter or Summer Backer) Testers- Summer 2020
    • Intrepid Pack (Webpage packs) Testers - Fall 2020.

    The PI test will be under NDA.  The BOW test will more than likely start under NDA, and then if the major issues are worked out, it may come off of NDA, or the NDA may remain in place until the fall when Alpha 1 is out of QA/Stress testing and officially starts.

    Game Development

    Intrepid Studios continue to make progress despite the California lockdown.  In March they showed a little over an hour of live developer gameplay.  In April they showed off some pre-recorded footage of the Alpha 1 Environment as well.  Through the month of May the owner has been leaking little clips of footage.    

    The overall consensus from the community is that the graphics are much improved, but the animations still need work.  Intrepid has acknowledged this and affirmed that this is still technically Pre-Alpha Footage, and that many more art and animation passes will occur before launch.

    For people who see the UI and wonder if it's the final one, the answer is no. Ryan Pearson, formerly of Blizzard, has joined the Intrepid Team as the Senior UI Artist.  He showcased some just ideas of new UI work in January, and Intrepid has continuously stated that the UI is a placeholder.  

    For a quick rundown on the graphics then and now, I put together a video that does a lot of side by side comparison. 

    Other

    I am happy to answer any questions about Ashes of Creation, collect any feedback and pass it along to Intrepid.  If you are looking for more information I invite you to https://www.ashes101.com/ which is my website covering the game 

    Or you can swing by the community wiki at https://ashesofcreation.wiki/


    One request to pass on to Intrepid, show us progress on their "node" system.

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • jahlonjahlon Member UncommonPosts: 381
    jahlon said:
    Are they compensating the Kickstarter people that bought packages that promised entry to the "earliest possible access"?

    I mean I'm not sure why they would need compensation.


    Maybe because they sold people something saying "Earliest possible access" and then did not give them access to the earliest test?

    It seems self-explanatory to me.  And whether it's the "right" decision to the company is irrelevant.  If you sell something to someone, then deliver it.  if you cannot, then you should offer them SOMETHING to make up for it.


    I mean the offer them something to make up for it, they did.  They got offered an explanation.

    Otherwise, the other alternative would have be in place.  A select group of hand picked individuals would be invited to test under NDA and under Alpha 0.1.  Until the game was ready to go to the masses. 

    Then, fuck 'em, as long as "all" people didn't get access to it, and you were picked for your testing skills not your donation size, then it would have be fair.

    Kyleran said:
    Good write up, thanks for sharing a summary of the issues for those of us not inclined to watch videos very often.

    Yup, that was one thing I was asked to do a while ago, and I'm willing to do out of respect for the platform.  I actually work from a paper product first, so the write up here is easy to do, but it also helps me on the front end.   I basically write the MMORPG update, then the script, then make the video.  

    Wellspring
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,121
    jahlon said:
    jahlon said:
    Are they compensating the Kickstarter people that bought packages that promised entry to the "earliest possible access"?

    I mean I'm not sure why they would need compensation.


    Maybe because they sold people something saying "Earliest possible access" and then did not give them access to the earliest test?

    It seems self-explanatory to me.  And whether it's the "right" decision to the company is irrelevant.  If you sell something to someone, then deliver it.  if you cannot, then you should offer them SOMETHING to make up for it.


    I mean the offer them something to make up for it, they did.  They got offered an explanation.


    You always claim to call out Stephen for weak responses so I will in turn call out yours here.  That was a weak response. You are the one who has gone on rants that "words matter". I guess that's true.  Until they don't.


    YashaXKyleranGdemamitzervoWellspring

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • jahlonjahlon Member UncommonPosts: 381
    jahlon said:
    jahlon said:
    Are they compensating the Kickstarter people that bought packages that promised entry to the "earliest possible access"?

    I mean I'm not sure why they would need compensation.


    Maybe because they sold people something saying "Earliest possible access" and then did not give them access to the earliest test?

    It seems self-explanatory to me.  And whether it's the "right" decision to the company is irrelevant.  If you sell something to someone, then deliver it.  if you cannot, then you should offer them SOMETHING to make up for it.


    I mean the offer them something to make up for it, they did.  They got offered an explanation.


    You always claim to call out Stephen for weak responses so I will in turn call out yours here.  That was a weak response. You are the one who has gone on rants that "words matter". I guess that's true.  Until they don't.



    Ok, what should they get in compensation? 

    I mean, we called him out on it.  He posted that a lot of the timelines are his fault since when he laid them out he hadn't hired a top-shelf producer.  So a lot of stuff that came out in 2017/2018 was before Babbletr0n joined the team.

    I mean, if he hasn't put it in his producer's letter, I'd have jumped up and down on him, but as a project manager, very few plans survive 3 years intact.

    So people need to be given a cookie when plans change?  

    So I mean at the end of the day you are entitled to an explanation about what happened, but you tell me, what do they deserve to get?
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,165
    jahlon said:
    jahlon said:
    jahlon said:
    Are they compensating the Kickstarter people that bought packages that promised entry to the "earliest possible access"?

    I mean I'm not sure why they would need compensation.


    Maybe because they sold people something saying "Earliest possible access" and then did not give them access to the earliest test?

    It seems self-explanatory to me.  And whether it's the "right" decision to the company is irrelevant.  If you sell something to someone, then deliver it.  if you cannot, then you should offer them SOMETHING to make up for it.


    I mean the offer them something to make up for it, they did.  They got offered an explanation.


    You always claim to call out Stephen for weak responses so I will in turn call out yours here.  That was a weak response. You are the one who has gone on rants that "words matter". I guess that's true.  Until they don't.



    Ok, what should they get in compensation? 

    I mean, we called him out on it.  He posted that a lot of the timelines are his fault since when he laid them out he hadn't hired a top-shelf producer.  So a lot of stuff that came out in 2017/2018 was before Babbletr0n joined the team.

    I mean, if he hasn't put it in his producer's letter, I'd have jumped up and down on him, but as a project manager, very few plans survive 3 years intact.

    So people need to be given a cookie when plans change?  

    So I mean at the end of the day you are entitled to an explanation about what happened, but you tell me, what do they deserve to get?
    A free months or two sub added to their account comes first to mind.
    Gdemamitzervo

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,121
    jahlon said:
    jahlon said:
    jahlon said:
    Are they compensating the Kickstarter people that bought packages that promised entry to the "earliest possible access"?

    I mean I'm not sure why they would need compensation.


    Maybe because they sold people something saying "Earliest possible access" and then did not give them access to the earliest test?

    It seems self-explanatory to me.  And whether it's the "right" decision to the company is irrelevant.  If you sell something to someone, then deliver it.  if you cannot, then you should offer them SOMETHING to make up for it.


    I mean the offer them something to make up for it, they did.  They got offered an explanation.


    You always claim to call out Stephen for weak responses so I will in turn call out yours here.  That was a weak response. You are the one who has gone on rants that "words matter". I guess that's true.  Until they don't.



    Ok, what should they get in compensation? 

    I mean, we called him out on it.  He posted that a lot of the timelines are his fault since when he laid them out he hadn't hired a top-shelf producer.  So a lot of stuff that came out in 2017/2018 was before Babbletr0n joined the team.

    I mean, if he hasn't put it in his producer's letter, I'd have jumped up and down on him, but as a project manager, very few plans survive 3 years intact.

    So people need to be given a cookie when plans change?  

    So I mean at the end of the day you are entitled to an explanation about what happened, but you tell me, what do they deserve to get?
    They didn't get what they bought.  It's not on them or on me to make it up to them.  It's up to the company that took their money.

    There are literally hundreds of ways Steven could try to do that.  It could range from offering refunds (doubt most would even take it), to store credit, to T-Shirts, to simply small group private sessions with a dev.  The possibilities are limitless and some of them wouldn't even cost money.

    But not when the people who say "words matter" decide that "They got offered an explanation" is fine. You have literally RAGED that he was hours late on updates because "words matter" but it's now OK to not deliver something that was sold... because they gave an explanation.  And the fact that you keep excusing it with platitudes like "plans change" makes it worse.  Of COURSE plans change, but if that impacts what is SPECIFICALLY listed when people are giving the company $500 and up, then it's ethically expected that a company makes at least some effort to make the customer whole.

    Sorry but that was just a weak response, and I think you know better.  Or at least in the past, you claimed to.  The explanation was of course required, but that does not negate the fact that they did not deliver what they sold. 
    YashaXGdemamitzervoWellspring

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,121
    edited May 31
    Here are the levels of response that AoC could have taken when they realized they could not deliver what was sold:

    1. Ignore it and pretend it never happened

    2. Acknowledge it (current level)

    3. Acknowledge it with some token attempt at compensation (toss a couple of sub months)*Edit:BoW came with lifetime sub but something similar in value

    4. Acknowledge it and attempt to make them whole (Significant store credit and maybe some unique in-game item)

    5. Acknowledge it and blow the customer away- #4 plus something like a once a month live stream for those affected which includes a Q&A plus behind the scenes glimpse at something nobody else has seen

    Just ideas.  There are limitless possibilities as long as we don't get stuck in silly "So people need to be given a cookie when plans change? " nonsense. Again, this is not just "plans change".  This is non-delivery of an item SPECIFICALLY listed on packages that cost $500. 

    Remember:  Words Matter.... until they don't.
    Gdemamitzervo

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • jahlonjahlon Member UncommonPosts: 381
    So I'm going to adamantly disagree with you, but that's ok, because its the internet and we can disagree.


    I think getting an answer as to why the change had to be made, is more important than throwing some bullshit free bauble at people.

    I mean at looked at your list and I saw that you wanted them to include a "couple of months" sub time in compensation.  Really?  You want them to give sub time as compensation for doing tiered access to Alpha instead of allowing 3,000 people to slam into it at one time?  That's not even a proportional response to the issue.  

    At the minimum, you have 3 and 4 flipped, since 4 is "significant" store credit.  You want significant store credit for something delayed in Alpha?  I mean, let's keep it on planet Earth here for a second, "earliest" possible access, while a key feature, wasn't the major selling point for the BOW and above Kick starter plans.  I could see them offering like 1,000 Embers, but beyond that, honestly no you just aren't in the realm of plausible.  

    As far as number 5 - So you are going to do an extra Q&A each month for people who were affected?  That's just a horrible waste of time, effort, energy, and resources.  Besides, that's going to take a ton of time just to coordinate getting it to only the people affected.   Now, doing an extra live stream each month for the entire community?  Sure, and they tried to do that last night, and it sort of blew up since Steven's internet was being laggy.   


    I also have disagree with you that this is "Non-delivery" of an item specifically listed on packages.    This is delayed delivery.  

    The way it is written is 

    Invite to Closed Alpha - Phase 1 (Earliest Access to Ashes!)

    I'm going to be honest, until people started throwing their hissy fits about this back near Alpha 0, I never even considered that people would read this entry as they were getting the earliest access.  I read it as Closed Alpha - Phase 1 was the earliest to Alpha.

    Now, could we argue about the semantics of "earliest access" sure, and yes their invitation is being delayed because its being tiered PI > LOM > BOW > Intrepid packs, but non-delivery?  No way, its not like they cancelled the invites all together and decided to do things a different way, they are inviting people just slow roll so they can get the data they need from the testing properly.  

    Words do matter, and I think getting the realignment from the Creative Director in his Q1 Creative Director letter, and then pressing him on the rationale as to why, and finding out he made a mistake and didn't have professional producer on board, is way more important than throwing 1000 embers at people to say we are sorry.  

    Gamers have gotten too accustomed to compensation for everything.  I will not say Intrepid had a great deployment plan, they didn't.  They way overestimated a ton of things, they missed a lot of deadlines and milestones (including launch by at least 2 years, maybe 3).  Some of that was 100% their own fault, some of it was stuff they couldn't foresee (like the 9 month rework on their back end)

    Personally I was more satisfied with the "instead of hiring dedicated production teams which in hindsight was a mistake" statement that came from him then I would be with some bullshit extra shiny trying to buy my loyalty that came with no explanation.  
    Kyleran
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,165
    edited May 31
    Well done, you have learned to split hairs as well as Master Stephen and have a solid future in the MLM world when this streaming career doesn't pan out.

    Blinded by the light.


    GdemamiSlapshot1188tzervo

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • jahlonjahlon Member UncommonPosts: 381
    Kyleran said:
    Well done, you have learned to split hairs as well as Master Stephen and have a solid future in the MLM world when this streaming career doesn't pan out.

    Blinded by the light.



    LOL - I'm retired.  The only bright future I have is the sunrise.  
  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,244
    The bigger the scope of a crowdfunded project the less confidence I have in it's ability to achieve it. 

    거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다












  • jahlonjahlon Member UncommonPosts: 381
    The bigger the scope of a crowdfunded project the less confidence I have in it's ability to achieve it. 

    This is a very fair point, and due to
    the recent collapse of Soulbound Studios and the failure of COE
    the perpetual delay on Star Citizen
    the strange direction that Camelot Unchained is going
    the continual oddness of Crowfall
    and Ashes of Creation blowing right past their launch date with no updated one in sight

    gamers are going to be wary of Crowdfunded games in the future, until we get one good success story in the MMORPG genre.  
    Kyleran
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,121
    edited May 31
    jahlon said:
    So I'm going to adamantly disagree with you, but that's ok, because its the internet and we can disagree.


    I think getting an answer as to why the change had to be made, is more important than throwing some bullshit free bauble at people.

    I mean at looked at your list and I saw that you wanted them to include a "couple of months" sub time in compensation.  Really?  You want them to give sub time as compensation for doing tiered access to Alpha instead of allowing 3,000 people to slam into it at one time?  That's not even a proportional response to the issue.  

    At the minimum, you have 3 and 4 flipped, since 4 is "significant" store credit.  You want significant store credit for something delayed in Alpha?  I mean, let's keep it on planet Earth here for a second, "earliest" possible access, while a key feature, wasn't the major selling point for the BOW and above Kick starter plans.  I could see them offering like 1,000 Embers, but beyond that, honestly no you just aren't in the realm of plausible.  

    As far as number 5 - So you are going to do an extra Q&A each month for people who were affected?  That's just a horrible waste of time, effort, energy, and resources.  Besides, that's going to take a ton of time just to coordinate getting it to only the people affected.   Now, doing an extra live stream each month for the entire community?  Sure, and they tried to do that last night, and it sort of blew up since Steven's internet was being laggy.   


    I also have disagree with you that this is "Non-delivery" of an item specifically listed on packages.    This is delayed delivery.  

    The way it is written is 

    Invite to Closed Alpha - Phase 1 (Earliest Access to Ashes!)

    I'm going to be honest, until people started throwing their hissy fits about this back near Alpha 0, I never even considered that people would read this entry as they were getting the earliest access.  I read it as Closed Alpha - Phase 1 was the earliest to Alpha.

    Now, could we argue about the semantics of "earliest access" sure, and yes their invitation is being delayed because its being tiered PI > LOM > BOW > Intrepid packs, but non-delivery?  No way, its not like they cancelled the invites all together and decided to do things a different way, they are inviting people just slow roll so they can get the data they need from the testing properly.  

    Words do matter, and I think getting the realignment from the Creative Director in his Q1 Creative Director letter, and then pressing him on the rationale as to why, and finding out he made a mistake and didn't have professional producer on board, is way more important than throwing 1000 embers at people to say we are sorry.  

    Gamers have gotten too accustomed to compensation for everything.  I will not say Intrepid had a great deployment plan, they didn't.  They way overestimated a ton of things, they missed a lot of deadlines and milestones (including launch by at least 2 years, maybe 3).  Some of that was 100% their own fault, some of it was stuff they couldn't foresee (like the 9 month rework on their back end)

    Personally I was more satisfied with the "instead of hiring dedicated production teams which in hindsight was a mistake" statement that came from him then I would be with some bullshit extra shiny trying to buy my loyalty that came with no explanation.  
    See that’s why I didn’t want to say what they should do to compensate originally because I knew you’d go full defender and pick it apart.  As I said multiple times those were examples and there are limitless things he could do to work it out and some of them cost the company nothing.

    You continue to dismiss this as “plans change”.   This is about not delivering what was clearly sold.  And as long as you continue to dismiss it with silly statements like “hissy fit” and asking if they need a cookie you have lost all objectivity in my mind and thus all credibility. 
    I mean you even posted this:

    Invite to Closed Alpha - Phase 1 (Earliest Access to Ashes!)

    I'm going to be honest, until people started throwing their hissy fits about this back near Alpha 0, I never even considered that people would read this entry as they were getting the earliest access. 

    Read that again.  slowly.  It literally says "Earliest Access to Ashes" and you state "I never even considered that people would read this entry as they were getting the earliest access"

    Really.  Read that and let it sink in.

    Words matter, and no more so than that which was clearly stated on the packaging of the item you bought.   The hoops you have jumped to try and split hairs and re-frame it are literally laughable.  Sorry, I kind of liked some of your prior videos but you have utterly jumped the shark on this one and the stubbornness just makes it worse. 

    So like you said, it’s the internet so we can disagree, but from now on I know I’ll have the skeptic glasses on every time I see you try to explain away something Steven does.  
    Post edited by Slapshot1188 on
    tzervo

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • jahlonjahlon Member UncommonPosts: 381
    Words matter, and no more so than that which was clearly stated on the packaging of the item you bought.   The hoops you have jumped to try and split hairs and re-frame it are literally laughable.



    I don't simply dismiss it as plans change.  From the fall of 2018 until the Spring of 2020 I continuously hounded them on several deliverables.  This wasn't the first time they did the phases entry to testing.  They did it previously with APOC, they also fucked around with naming conventions, like Alpha 1 Phase 1 and I hammered them on that.

    Last weekend, when the Community Marketing Lead Margaret Krohn tried to spin doctor the statement that what the PI was testing was Pre-Alpha, I called her out pubically out on her bullshit, since nowhere had the PI testing in May been called "Pre" Alpha testing.  

    You are right, and I have read it.  It says Alpha 1 - Earliest Access to Alpha.  It also nowhere states that there wouldn't be phases entry.  Maybe they thought it was clear and people took a different approach to it.  I didn't read it as everyone was going to get in on day 1.  Since they had tiered backing, it was just natural for me to think that they would invite people down the line from PI to LOM to BOW.

    When people threw their hissy fits (and that's what they were because its how they presented themselves on the Discord) about people getting tiered access to APOC, that's when I actually took their side and put it to Intrepid.  I said they need to put something in writing to correct what they previously said. 

    It took a long time to get him to do it, but he finally put it in writing.  They scrapped the old way, and they laid out the new plan.  That's what I care about.  I care about developers admitting when they are wrong and communicating the new plan.






  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,121
    jahlon said:
    Words matter, and no more so than that which was clearly stated on the packaging of the item you bought.   The hoops you have jumped to try and split hairs and re-frame it are literally laughable.



    I don't simply dismiss it as plans change.  From the fall of 2018 until the Spring of 2020 I continuously hounded them on several deliverables.  This wasn't the first time they did the phases entry to testing.  They did it previously with APOC, they also fucked around with naming conventions, like Alpha 1 Phase 1 and I hammered them on that.

    Last weekend, when the Community Marketing Lead Margaret Krohn tried to spin doctor the statement that what the PI was testing was Pre-Alpha, I called her out pubically out on her bullshit, since nowhere had the PI testing in May been called "Pre" Alpha testing.  

    You are right, and I have read it.  It says Alpha 1 - Earliest Access to Alpha.  It also nowhere states that there wouldn't be phases entry.  Maybe they thought it was clear and people took a different approach to it.  I didn't read it as everyone was going to get in on day 1.  Since they had tiered backing, it was just natural for me to think that they would invite people down the line from PI to LOM to BOW.

    When people threw their hissy fits (and that's what they were because its how they presented themselves on the Discord) about people getting tiered access to APOC, that's when I actually took their side and put it to Intrepid.  I said they need to put something in writing to correct what they previously said. 

    It took a long time to get him to do it, but he finally put it in writing.  They scrapped the old way, and they laid out the new plan.  That's what I care about.  I care about developers admitting when they are wrong and communicating the new plan.






    Jahlon 2017: 
    Jahlon10/26/2017
    I'm a fan of words.   I belive words matter

    2018:
    Jahlon05/05/2018
    Words do matter


    Jahlon09/16/2018
    Words matter

    Jahlon10/06/2018
    But words do matter


    Jahlon11/12/2018
    If you are testing "stuff" that isn't what you are planning on releasing, then you aren't alpha testing your product.  Now, your product may be an alpha of something else.    But words matter.

    2019:
    Jahlon01/19/2019
    Words matter

    Jahlon01/22/2019
    Yeah, words matter

    Jahlon02/19/2019
    Yeah, but words matter

    Jahlon02/19/2019
    Words do matter

    Jahlon07/16/2019
    What a shock, words matter.

    Jahlon11/10/2019
    Yes, because words matter

    Jahlon May 2020 in response to something that LITERALLY says " Phase 1 (Earliest Access to Ashes!):
    "I never even considered that people would read this entry as they were getting the earliest access"
    --------------------------

    WORDS MATTER... until they don't.  

    Come on man.  Don't be a word-weasel.  Coming from someone who stressed the importance of words for years it's very disappointing. 
     

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,664
    Mention of "some will be wary of CF games in the future"....lol

    Not in the future,i DESPISED them from day 1,the same as i despise the use of the phrase free to play,cash shops,loot boxes,there is way too much garbage going on in the gaming industry.

    I can throw gaming expos and game awards shows on top of that,game reviews by people who either have a working relationship with the developer or got their game for free.

    Bottom line is you cannot trust anyone,if money is involved there are dirty people tied to it.

    I have not been in this game from the start to be able to identify anything they are doing,is it new,are there constant updates,i wouldn't have a clue.I also don't hold developers to timelines...well sort of.I mean a few months is nothing,idc about that but maybe a game like SC and how it conducts it's business does bother me.

    All i know is what i can see with my own eyes ,the game looks ...ok'ish as far as design goes,idk much about combat or class design,actually i know almost nothing.The reason i don't know much right now is because i don't NEED to,they are not getting any money out of me until i see the finished product.When it releases then i'll look closer at the classes and combat.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • jahlonjahlon Member UncommonPosts: 381
    jahlon said:
    Words matter, and no more so than that which was clearly stated on the packaging of the item you bought.   The hoops you have jumped to try and split hairs and re-frame it are literally laughable.



    I don't simply dismiss it as plans change.  From the fall of 2018 until the Spring of 2020 I continuously hounded them on several deliverables.  This wasn't the first time they did the phases entry to testing.  They did it previously with APOC, they also fucked around with naming conventions, like Alpha 1 Phase 1 and I hammered them on that.

    Last weekend, when the Community Marketing Lead Margaret Krohn tried to spin doctor the statement that what the PI was testing was Pre-Alpha, I called her out pubically out on her bullshit, since nowhere had the PI testing in May been called "Pre" Alpha testing.  

    You are right, and I have read it.  It says Alpha 1 - Earliest Access to Alpha.  It also nowhere states that there wouldn't be phases entry.  Maybe they thought it was clear and people took a different approach to it.  I didn't read it as everyone was going to get in on day 1.  Since they had tiered backing, it was just natural for me to think that they would invite people down the line from PI to LOM to BOW.

    When people threw their hissy fits (and that's what they were because its how they presented themselves on the Discord) about people getting tiered access to APOC, that's when I actually took their side and put it to Intrepid.  I said they need to put something in writing to correct what they previously said. 

    It took a long time to get him to do it, but he finally put it in writing.  They scrapped the old way, and they laid out the new plan.  That's what I care about.  I care about developers admitting when they are wrong and communicating the new plan.






    Jahlon 2017: 
    Jahlon10/26/2017
    I'm a fan of words.   I belive words matter

    2018:
    Jahlon05/05/2018
    Words do matter


    Jahlon09/16/2018
    Words matter

    Jahlon10/06/2018
    But words do matter


    Jahlon11/12/2018
    If you are testing "stuff" that isn't what you are planning on releasing, then you aren't alpha testing your product.  Now, your product may be an alpha of something else.    But words matter.

    2019:
    Jahlon01/19/2019
    Words matter

    Jahlon01/22/2019
    Yeah, words matter

    Jahlon02/19/2019
    Yeah, but words matter

    Jahlon02/19/2019
    Words do matter

    Jahlon07/16/2019
    What a shock, words matter.

    Jahlon11/10/2019
    Yes, because words matter

    Jahlon May 2020 in response to something that LITERALLY says " Phase 1 (Earliest Access to Ashes!):
    "I never even considered that people would read this entry as they were getting the earliest access"
    --------------------------

    WORDS MATTER... until they don't.  

    Come on man.  Don't be a word-weasel.  Coming from someone who stressed the importance of words for years it's very disappointing. 
     

    I'm still not seeing your point.

    We grilled him on this for years, then we finally got him to not only put the change on paper in the Q1 letter, but we also got him to put out why it was that way and admit he was wrong.


    I can reflect that misstep on a few things. First our hiring schedule was severely overestimated. Second, our architecture had to be reproached. But most importantly; Game development has a particular role called production. Early in the life cycle of the company, I shy’ed away from hiring producers because I heard many horror stories of too many producers at other companies causing issues for the developers. But producers are a key component of establishing timelines and managing tasks/schedules. Early in the company’s lifecycle I placed that role on my leads instead of hiring dedicated production teams which in hindsight was a mistake. Back in December 2018 I realized this and scouted some of the industry’s best producers and brought them onboard in early 2019. Then once they had an opportunity to evaluate and establish our timelines and schedules I made the announcement to reset expectations with regards to our anticipated delivery dates. And now we focus on the quality of the product and features promised.

    https://discordapp.com/channels/256164085366915072/256164085366915072/683353596846538873


    I will take communicaton from a developer that includes the statement "was a mistake"  every day of the week instead of getting a shiny bauble, 1000 embers, a free cosmetics and then never getting the words out of the guy that he was mistaken on his timelines.  Getting someone to admit they were mistaken means you are finally getting through to them.  

    So the process changed in 2020.  That doesn't bother me.  The new producer wasn't even on staff when these original timelines were written.  Intrepid has had to scrap their entire back end and start over, so I mean its not surprising they want to be cautious with how many people they slam into the servers at one time. 

    I just don't see tiering access as this horrible thing.  I think it makes perfect sense.  

    Now, if it was something along the lines of they were dropping an entire race, or 4 classes, or sub classes, or dropping all of action combat and going traditional tab, if it was something major change to the organic nature of the game, I'd 100% agree with you that the LOM and BOW people would deserve something in compensation.

    But the PI people are the highest backing people and they get in first, I don't really see this as a big problem.   

    The LOM next, highest tier so when the game is stable enough for them, they get in

    Then BOW

    Then the other 7,000 people who have Alpha 1 access (including a group of Intrepid pack holders who packages said Earliest Possible Access as well) 

    Now as far as you sticking to this "I never even considered that people would read this entry as they were getting the earliest access"

    Yes, I'm sorry if I read English literally so when it says 

    Invite to Closed Alpha - Phase 1 (Earliest Access to Ashes!)

    I read that as Phase 1 is the earliest access to Ashes.  
    I do not read that as the Invite is the earliest access to Ashes.

    My natural comprehension from that, as it always has been, is that you'd get invited to Alpha 1, but again, it wasn't a huge surprise for me that they would do PI > LOM > BOW > Intrepid Packs.  I have an Intrepid Pack, so I just naturally assumed I'd be invited last.

    In fact, I assumed it would go like this

    KS PI
    KS LOM
    KS BOW
    SB LOM
    SB BOW
    Intrepid Packs by Date


    Now, if people could actually articulate an argument about the "earliest possible access" thing, I'd once again revist it, but you've done everything except address the issue.  
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,121
    Dude... you just keep digging a bigger hole.  I never want to hear you use the words "Words Matter" again.  You lost all credibility.  You are word-weaseling just as bad as Steven.  The difference is that everyone here can see it.

    Keep defending them and letting them piss off people that literally gave the company $500 by explaining to them that earliest access doesn't mean earliest access.   It's a great strategy.  There is no need for me to argue with you as it's obvious you are in hardcore defensive mode and everyone else does not need convincing.

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • jahlonjahlon Member UncommonPosts: 381
    Dude... you just keep digging a bigger hole.  I never want to hear you use the words "Words Matter" again.  You lost all credibility.  You are word-weaseling just as bad as Steven.  The difference is that everyone here can see it.

    Keep defending them and letting them piss off people that literally gave the company $500 by explaining to them that earliest access doesn't mean earliest access.   It's a great strategy.  There is no need for me to argue with you as it's obvious you are in hardcore defensive mode and everyone else does not need convincing.


    So basically you have no argument.

    I've put up volumes of stuff and you haven't actually addressed a single point of it.

    I did stay on top of them.  For years to get an explanation.

    Literally all I've seen from you in this entire thread is 

    Compensation!!!!

    You keep throwing back at me Words Matter.

    Yes, they do, and we finally got them to put some words down on paper, and actually document the change from "earliest access" to the tier system.  We got Steven to explain that he made a mistake not hiring a producer early on.


    You bowing out saying "there's no need for me to argue with you" is because thus far you haven't put up anything that looks like an argument.


  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,121
    jahlon said:
    Dude... you just keep digging a bigger hole.  I never want to hear you use the words "Words Matter" again.  You lost all credibility.  You are word-weaseling just as bad as Steven.  The difference is that everyone here can see it.

    Keep defending them and letting them piss off people that literally gave the company $500 by explaining to them that earliest access doesn't mean earliest access.   It's a great strategy.  There is no need for me to argue with you as it's obvious you are in hardcore defensive mode and everyone else does not need convincing.


    So basically you have no argument.

    I've put up volumes of stuff and you haven't actually addressed a single point of it.

    I did stay on top of them.  For years to get an explanation.

    Literally all I've seen from you in this entire thread is 

    Compensation!!!!

    You keep throwing back at me Words Matter.

    Yes, they do, and we finally got them to put some words down on paper, and actually document the change from "earliest access" to the tier system.  We got Steven to explain that he made a mistake not hiring a producer early on.


    You bowing out saying "there's no need for me to argue with you" is because thus far you haven't put up anything that looks like an argument.


    When you sell something and do not deliver it, simply admitting you screwed up is not making things right.  The fact that you cling to that as some sort of victory just shows how low your bar is set. I'm sorry you cannot see that.  You will not be convinced and nobody else needs convincing.

    Wellspring

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

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