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What Does No Vertical Progression Mean? Horizontal Progression is an Illusion.

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  • RhoklawRhoklaw Member EpicPosts: 7,047
    Vertical progression is one of the fundamental pillars of the RPG genre, while you will find horizontal progression to be the staple of the FPS genre.

    To have an RPG with no vertical progression? That's like trying to build an airplane out of stone. Sure you can certainly do that, but what would be the point? It won't function as intended.
    KyleranAlBQuirky

  • rodarinrodarin Member EpicPosts: 2,562
    There is absolutely horizontal progression. But people dont tend to recognize it because it involves making a choice. But witht he complete laziness of developers now every choice is blogged and written aboit so ypu can have the most optimized 'build'.

    But horizontal progression is sort of portrayed in ESO. Sort of because theyre as lazy as it comes. But basially you go backwards in that game you get weaker in general by comparison to enemies but you unlock more skills and can get better armor (that is sort of vertical) but only because those set which are available at every level gap are 'best' at max level. But the skills are limited you can learn them all but you can only choose 6 to use (12 if you use different ones on your swap bars)

    But again because its 'lazy' you max out your 'horizontal' progression there faster than your vertical.

    Life is Feudal is probably the best example ut it is also the poster child for people who hate 'grinding'. But that is the bane of any game progression in some way shape or form is the reason why you play games inthe first place. 
    Gdemami
  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    Rhoklaw said:
    Vertical progression is one of the fundamental pillars of the RPG genre, while you will find horizontal progression to be the staple of the FPS genre.

    To have an RPG with no vertical progression? That's like trying to build an airplane out of stone. Sure you can certainly do that, but what would be the point? It won't function as intended.

    You make a point.

    That's why I prefer Limited Vertical Combat Power Progression with the possibility of Vertical Progression in other forms of power besides combat power.  I also think regression should be possible as well.  Because, in real life, it is possible to regress as well as progress. 
    RhoklawGdemami
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,167
    Kyleran said:
    Perk card selection is the second progression system with players being permitted to pick one after each level up.



    Have you played Darkest Dungeon?
    No, haven't had the opportunity.

    Is that the game where you control a party of characters, however they can act and react based on their selected attributes?

    If so, I passed as I'm too much of a control freak to have characters which run away, cower in fear or whatever.

    Just encourages me to quit and reload endlessly until I get through a fight where such negative actions either never occur or have minimal impact on the outcome.

    In games like XCOM? No character of mine ever permanently died in one, in fact most scenarios were redone until I achieved a near flawless and total victory over the enemy.


    AlBQuirky

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    Kyleran said:
    Kyleran said:
    Perk card selection is the second progression system with players being permitted to pick one after each level up.



    Have you played Darkest Dungeon?
    No, haven't had the opportunity.

    Is that the game where you control a party of characters, however they can act and react based on their selected attributes?

    If so, I passed as I'm too much of a control freak to have characters which run away, cower in fear or whatever.

    Just encourages me to quit and reload endlessly until I get through a fight where such negative actions either never occur or have minimal impact on the outcome.

    In games like XCOM? No character of mine ever permanently died in one, in fact most scenarios were redone until I achieved a near flawless and total victory over the enemy.



    Well, the cool thing about Darkest Dungeon is that is autosaves constantly.  You can't reload from a previous save.  Either you deal with what happened or start over from the beginning. 




    "A core element of Darkest Dungeon is its Affliction system, a concept of a hero's stress level or resolve. Though a hero will have little stress when they are hired, it will worsen from a number of factors encountered while in a dungeon, such as adventuring without food or light sources, seeing the death or wounding of a fellow party member in battle, or from blights cast on them by enemies. If the hero's high stress remains unchecked, they may develop afflictions that will interfere with the behavior of the character, such as being frightened and unable to fight directly. Less frequently, a stressed character may develop virtues that enhance their attributes, such as becoming more invigorated within battle. Some afflictions, left unchecked, may become permanent quirks that remain on the character. Other afflictions can be removed back in the village and by performing special activities, such as drinking at a bar or repenting at a church, that occupy the character's time, preventing them from being part of a dungeon party. Allowing a hero to reach an extremely high stress level can cause them to have a heart attack, bringing them to the brink of death if not immediately tended to. Stress can be lowered while in a dungeon through camping offered at specific locations, or other restorative items, as well as when back in the nearby town. While camping, the characters will have another set of available skills that can be used to help relieve stress and help with other party members."





    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,666
    It changes by designing a better game.No it won't change in the Wow clones because those are terrible designs.

    So an example?

    1 Abilities,you learn more to control the combat ,turn it in your favor
    2 player to player combos instead of  lame solo combos.
    3 resistances,this is a huge one that a few do it ..ok,but nobody does it really well.This means weapon types,elemental types as well perhaps light n dark types.
    4 Ai is  still a major factor and these scripted AI can be done a LOT better than what we are used to.

    SO an example of Ai,well there is obviously only two methods,definitive scripts and rng scripts.Definitive means at set intervals the npc will react but it doesn't have to be ONE reaction there can be a pool of reactions,so that nothing is predictable.

    RNG scripts are ones where the npc might do anything at any given moment,so the NPC might be easier or tougher depending on the rng.

    Then there is scripts that can MORPH the npc.This means the npc's predictability is no longer predictable ..at all.The NPC might morph into partial or 100% FIRE resistance or maybe partial or 100% slashing resistance or magic resistance etc etc.If it is a Dragon it might go through phases,one phase on the ground ,another phase in the AIR.

    The current designs CONTROL your combat,it is very easy for a developer to look at the numbers and simply create NPC's that counter those numbers.There is a downside to a better design and devs are imo TOO LAZY to work with it and that is when people min/max abilities.

    So for example a group of all mages to nuke while another kites.Or all nukes to obliterate the npc fast.OR STUNS,just fill your group with 10 stuns and the npc can never move or react.There is a way around EVERY single flaw but as i stated,devs are TOO LAZY.
    Ancient_Exile

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    edited May 23
    Wizardry said:
    It changes by designing a better game.No it won't change in the Wow clones because those are terrible designs.

    So an example?

    1 Abilities,you learn more to control the combat ,turn it in your favor
    2 player to player combos instead of  lame solo combos.
    3 resistances,this is a huge one that a few do it ..ok,but nobody does it really well.This means weapon types,elemental types as well perhaps light n dark types.
    4 Ai is  still a major factor and these scripted AI can be done a LOT better than what we are used to.

    SO an example of Ai,well there is obviously only two methods,definitive scripts and rng scripts.Definitive means at set intervals the npc will react but it doesn't have to be ONE reaction there can be a pool of reactions,so that nothing is predictable.

    RNG scripts are ones where the npc might do anything at any given moment,so the NPC might be easier or tougher depending on the rng.

    Then there is scripts that can MORPH the npc.This means the npc's predictability is no longer predictable ..at all.The NPC might morph into partial or 100% FIRE resistance or maybe partial or 100% slashing resistance or magic resistance etc etc.If it is a Dragon it might go through phases,one phase on the ground ,another phase in the AIR.

    The current designs CONTROL your combat,it is very easy for a developer to look at the numbers and simply create NPC's that counter those numbers.There is a downside to a better design and devs are imo TOO LAZY to work with it and that is when people min/max abilities.

    So for example a group of all mages to nuke while another kites.Or all nukes to obliterate the npc fast.OR STUNS,just fill your group with 10 stuns and the npc can never move or react.There is a way around EVERY single flaw but as i stated,devs are TOO LAZY.

    Like dungeon bosses in Neverwinter that are inexplicably immune to all sorts of crowd control-type abilities.
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,311
    Kyleran said:
    bcbully said:
    ESO says “Hi”.



    pre-champion system still all in all even with 
    ESO clearly has several forms of progression,  eschewing just one of many possible designs.


    What ESO has is several different vertical systems not tied to character levels and much smaller power gaps than other MMOs, A lot of that thanks to the full level scaling from level 1 to level 50 CP 160.

    I like the system but many hate it because they're not progressing fast enough for their taste. Probably the WOW refugees who still miss WOW :)

    But everything related to combat power is still vertical even if the vertical axis is smaller and progression is more subtle. Leveling the Undaunted skill line by running more dungeons is vertical with the better skills you get from it at the higher tiers of the skill line. Leveling the 2 PvP skill lines independent of character level is the same and so is every guild skill line, weapon and armor lines, etc.

    It's a system that gives you more choices about what you can level and how you level those things but it's still very much vertical.


    Kyleran
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • RhoklawRhoklaw Member EpicPosts: 7,047
    Rhoklaw said:
    Vertical progression is one of the fundamental pillars of the RPG genre, while you will find horizontal progression to be the staple of the FPS genre.

    To have an RPG with no vertical progression? That's like trying to build an airplane out of stone. Sure you can certainly do that, but what would be the point? It won't function as intended.

    You make a point.

    That's why I prefer Limited Vertical Combat Power Progression with the possibility of Vertical Progression in other forms of power besides combat power.  I also think regression should be possible as well.  Because, in real life, it is possible to regress as well as progress. 

    All I'm saying is, some form of vertical progression must exist in all RPGs. It doesn't have to be a huge disparity. It could be realistic, such as different grades of metal making a weapon stronger or lighter. You start getting huge gaps in vertical progression when developers boost stats. If stats were left out of the equation, other than say, increased strength or stamina from fighting / running or intelligence / wisdom from aging. Then you wouldn't have such huge gaps between players.

    Gear progression is good, but Stat progression is what causes problems. However, I know it's fun to acquire new gear that boosts your stats and makes you a lot more powerful than you used to be, but in the end, the results all end up the same aside from gear / stat disparity between new and veteran players.

    I think Mordhau or whatever that game is called is more in line with what a more horizontal RPG would work like.

  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    Rhoklaw said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    Vertical progression is one of the fundamental pillars of the RPG genre, while you will find horizontal progression to be the staple of the FPS genre.

    To have an RPG with no vertical progression? That's like trying to build an airplane out of stone. Sure you can certainly do that, but what would be the point? It won't function as intended.

    You make a point.

    That's why I prefer Limited Vertical Combat Power Progression with the possibility of Vertical Progression in other forms of power besides combat power.  I also think regression should be possible as well.  Because, in real life, it is possible to regress as well as progress. 

    All I'm saying is, some form of vertical progression must exist in all RPGs. It doesn't have to be a huge disparity. It could be realistic, such as different grades of metal making a weapon stronger or lighter. You start getting huge gaps in vertical progression when developers boost stats. If stats were left out of the equation, other than say, increased strength or stamina from fighting / running or intelligence / wisdom from aging. Then you wouldn't have such huge gaps between players.

    Gear progression is good, but Stat progression is what causes problems. However, I know it's fun to acquire new gear that boosts your stats and makes you a lot more powerful than you used to be, but in the end, the results all end up the same aside from gear / stat disparity between new and veteran players.

    I think Mordhau or whatever that game is called is more in line with what a more horizontal RPG would work like.

    I think there should be limits to magic and divine/infernal power as well.  Which means that there will be limits to how greatly an item can be enchanted or blessed.  But this also necessitates that an MMORPG be designed so as not to completely center around combat.
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • iixviiiixiixviiiix Member RarePosts: 2,119
    Summary , Horizontal Progression is a bunch of Vertical Progressions twisted together at start point and parted middle with multiple end points



    tzervoGdemami
  • rodarinrodarin Member EpicPosts: 2,562
    Iselin said:
    Kyleran said:
    bcbully said:
    ESO says “Hi”.



    pre-champion system still all in all even with 
    ESO clearly has several forms of progression,  eschewing just one of many possible designs.


    What ESO has is several different vertical systems not tied to character levels and much smaller power gaps than other MMOs, A lot of that thanks to the full level scaling from level 1 to level 50 CP 160.

    I like the system but many hate it because they're not progressing fast enough for their taste. Probably the WOW refugees who still miss WOW :)

    But everything related to combat power is still vertical even if the vertical axis is smaller and progression is more subtle. Leveling the Undaunted skill line by running more dungeons is vertical with the better skills you get from it at the higher tiers of the skill line. Leveling the 2 PvP skill lines independent of character level is the same and so is every guild skill line, weapon and armor lines, etc.

    It's a system that gives you more choices about what you can level and how you level those things but it's still very much vertical.


    ESO is horizontal with the skills you learn. When you start you know like 2 or 3 basic skills then you unlock and advance the others with use. Unlocking skills is most definitely horizontal, you can play semantics with how their mitigation system works where new characters are better than higher level characters in many regards. Fall Out 76 is similar but I havent played enough to figure out all the nuances there. 

    Its like the real world and going to school (when you were allowed to go to school). You were getting older ...vertical progression. BUt asyou progressed through scholl you learnednew things. While some were basic,...reading writing and math their advancement was mostly vertical. Bt getting to learn a new language, physics, cheistry, geometry, etc I wouold classify as horizontal. You were taking the BASICS you learned and were advancing and were branching those off into new skills. Same could be said (but not as easily tracked) as 'learning' social queues and HOW to 'live' in society. Those lessons have certainly been tested the past few months.

    Aways funny how people pickand choose whatthey want to rail about in regards to MMOs and games ingneral. Used tobe the gear grind, then forever it as the inability or balance PvP, nowitsmostly there are no new MMOMs or any worth getting hyped about these discussions sort of died out.

    End of the day its about money and what they can do that is cost effective. With what has happened this year it will be interesting to see if the gaming world suffers from the ecnomic destruction reaped on the globe. Short term i think they have benefited from it since peple have been bored and probably spent more money than they can afford to on games. But once the free ride is over and they have to go back to work to get a check and those jobs aret there that will be interesting.
    GdemamiIselin
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,311
    edited May 24
    rodarin said:
    Iselin said:
    Kyleran said:
    bcbully said:
    ESO says “Hi”.



    pre-champion system still all in all even with 
    ESO clearly has several forms of progression,  eschewing just one of many possible designs.


    What ESO has is several different vertical systems not tied to character levels and much smaller power gaps than other MMOs, A lot of that thanks to the full level scaling from level 1 to level 50 CP 160.

    I like the system but many hate it because they're not progressing fast enough for their taste. Probably the WOW refugees who still miss WOW :)

    But everything related to combat power is still vertical even if the vertical axis is smaller and progression is more subtle. Leveling the Undaunted skill line by running more dungeons is vertical with the better skills you get from it at the higher tiers of the skill line. Leveling the 2 PvP skill lines independent of character level is the same and so is every guild skill line, weapon and armor lines, etc.

    It's a system that gives you more choices about what you can level and how you level those things but it's still very much vertical.


    ESO is horizontal with the skills you learn. When you start you know like 2 or 3 basic skills then you unlock and advance the others with use. Unlocking skills is most definitely horizontal, you can play semantics with how their mitigation system works where new characters are better than higher level characters in many regards. Fall Out 76 is similar but I havent played enough to figure out all the nuances there. 


    So you have 5 active skills and 5 passive skills in a skill line and you unlock the 1st one by gaining 500 experience in that skill line but you need 10,000,000 XP to unlock number 10, and skills number 8, 9 and 10 are the only ones widely used in any end-game meta build and that's not vertical? 

    And the new characters are better than higher level characters bit? Fucking priceless. It would take the worst player in the history of ESO to not come up with a better build with 200-400 skill points available vs the 6 or 7 you have at level 10.

    LMAO.

    Post edited by Iselin on
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • rodarinrodarin Member EpicPosts: 2,562
    Iselin said:
    rodarin said:
    Iselin said:
    Kyleran said:
    bcbully said:
    ESO says “Hi”.



    pre-champion system still all in all even with 
    ESO clearly has several forms of progression,  eschewing just one of many possible designs.


    What ESO has is several different vertical systems not tied to character levels and much smaller power gaps than other MMOs, A lot of that thanks to the full level scaling from level 1 to level 50 CP 160.

    I like the system but many hate it because they're not progressing fast enough for their taste. Probably the WOW refugees who still miss WOW :)

    But everything related to combat power is still vertical even if the vertical axis is smaller and progression is more subtle. Leveling the Undaunted skill line by running more dungeons is vertical with the better skills you get from it at the higher tiers of the skill line. Leveling the 2 PvP skill lines independent of character level is the same and so is every guild skill line, weapon and armor lines, etc.

    It's a system that gives you more choices about what you can level and how you level those things but it's still very much vertical.


    ESO is horizontal with the skills you learn. When you start you know like 2 or 3 basic skills then you unlock and advance the others with use. Unlocking skills is most definitely horizontal, you can play semantics with how their mitigation system works where new characters are better than higher level characters in many regards. Fall Out 76 is similar but I havent played enough to figure out all the nuances there. 


    So you have 5 active skills and 5 passive skills in a skill line and you unlock the 1st one by gaining 500 experience in that skill line but you need 10,000,000 XP to unlock number 10, and skills number 8, 9 and 10 are the only ones widely used in any end-game meta build and that's not vertical? 

    And the new characters are better than higher level characters bit? Fucking priceless. It would take the worst player in the history of ESO to not come up with a better build with 200-400 skill points available vs the 6 or 7 you have at level 10.

    LMAO.

    I didnt say that. I said new toons at level 1 are better at mitigating and doing damage that max level players. It might be 'naked' I dont know. but everyone knows that new players are buffed to high heaven in ESO. What actual factors those are I amnot positive but I am sure some peopel have tried to surmise them somewhere and somehow. 

    Or all of that coudhave ben scrapped with the CP system. Again not sure. But I remember when they redid everything and got rid of 'level' gates and let you go and start on any map they 'balanced' new characters out at max level versus open world enemies that in most cases made them stronger than maxed out characters in a lot of ways.

    I havent sarted a new toon in awhile but even if I did it would still have 600 or so CP tospend, I supose without spending them it could be 'trsted' to see if it were accurate.

    But losing the tress for the forest here. ESO has BOTH types of progression (as limited as they are)

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,311
    edited May 25
    rodarin said:
    Iselin said:
    rodarin said:
    Iselin said:
    Kyleran said:
    bcbully said:
    ESO says “Hi”.



    pre-champion system still all in all even with 
    ESO clearly has several forms of progression,  eschewing just one of many possible designs.


    What ESO has is several different vertical systems not tied to character levels and much smaller power gaps than other MMOs, A lot of that thanks to the full level scaling from level 1 to level 50 CP 160.

    I like the system but many hate it because they're not progressing fast enough for their taste. Probably the WOW refugees who still miss WOW :)

    But everything related to combat power is still vertical even if the vertical axis is smaller and progression is more subtle. Leveling the Undaunted skill line by running more dungeons is vertical with the better skills you get from it at the higher tiers of the skill line. Leveling the 2 PvP skill lines independent of character level is the same and so is every guild skill line, weapon and armor lines, etc.

    It's a system that gives you more choices about what you can level and how you level those things but it's still very much vertical.


    ESO is horizontal with the skills you learn. When you start you know like 2 or 3 basic skills then you unlock and advance the others with use. Unlocking skills is most definitely horizontal, you can play semantics with how their mitigation system works where new characters are better than higher level characters in many regards. Fall Out 76 is similar but I havent played enough to figure out all the nuances there. 


    So you have 5 active skills and 5 passive skills in a skill line and you unlock the 1st one by gaining 500 experience in that skill line but you need 10,000,000 XP to unlock number 10, and skills number 8, 9 and 10 are the only ones widely used in any end-game meta build and that's not vertical? 

    And the new characters are better than higher level characters bit? Fucking priceless. It would take the worst player in the history of ESO to not come up with a better build with 200-400 skill points available vs the 6 or 7 you have at level 10.

    LMAO.

    I didnt say that. I said new toons at level 1 are better at mitigating and doing damage that max level players. It might be 'naked' I dont know. but everyone knows that new players are buffed to high heaven in ESO. What actual factors those are I amnot positive but I am sure some peopel have tried to surmise them somewhere and somehow. 

    Or all of that coudhave ben scrapped with the CP system. Again not sure. But I remember when they redid everything and got rid of 'level' gates and let you go and start on any map they 'balanced' new characters out at max level versus open world enemies that in most cases made them stronger than maxed out characters in a lot of ways.

    I havent sarted a new toon in awhile but even if I did it would still have 600 or so CP tospend, I supose without spending them it could be 'trsted' to see if it were accurate.

    But losing the tress for the forest here. ESO has BOTH types of progression (as limited as they are)

    That is an urban legend. A level 1 character can not mitigate better than a fully leveled character.

    Yes they do get an extra buff from level 1 to level 33. It's a hidden buff but I was on the PTR before they hid the numbers, You get 100% of the buff at level 1 and it diminished by 3% per level until it totally falls off at level 34. That is in addition to the buff everyone under CP 160 gets which is also done on a diminishing basis but in that case from level 1 to level 50 CP 160.

    That is just the math behind the scaling and it's needed to give low level players without any good active or passive skills a chance.

    But in no way shape or form are they mitigating more than anyone who knows how to build their character using the better active and passive skills available to them but nt to the low level character.

    There are also twinked low level players same as in WOW and many other games because the CP system applies to all characters in an account. If your main is CP 800 (or whatever the max usable is right now) you can create a level 1 alt and use 800 CP on that level 1 to twink the crap out of it. Now those twinks at low levels can in fact be better than a higher level character on a new account that has no CP passives to play with. It's no different in effect from WOW low level characters decked out in heirloom gear.

    But that is the only case where a low level can actually be better than a higher level.

    If you compare twink to twink the higher level one wins hands down and if you're comparing new account with no CP to new account with no CP the same applies.
    tzervoAlBQuirkyKyleran
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • rodarinrodarin Member EpicPosts: 2,562
    Iselin said:
    rodarin said:
    Iselin said:
    rodarin said:
    Iselin said:
    Kyleran said:
    bcbully said:
    ESO says “Hi”.



    pre-champion system still all in all even with 
    ESO clearly has several forms of progression,  eschewing just one of many possible designs.


    What ESO has is several different vertical systems not tied to character levels and much smaller power gaps than other MMOs, A lot of that thanks to the full level scaling from level 1 to level 50 CP 160.

    I like the system but many hate it because they're not progressing fast enough for their taste. Probably the WOW refugees who still miss WOW :)

    But everything related to combat power is still vertical even if the vertical axis is smaller and progression is more subtle. Leveling the Undaunted skill line by running more dungeons is vertical with the better skills you get from it at the higher tiers of the skill line. Leveling the 2 PvP skill lines independent of character level is the same and so is every guild skill line, weapon and armor lines, etc.

    It's a system that gives you more choices about what you can level and how you level those things but it's still very much vertical.


    ESO is horizontal with the skills you learn. When you start you know like 2 or 3 basic skills then you unlock and advance the others with use. Unlocking skills is most definitely horizontal, you can play semantics with how their mitigation system works where new characters are better than higher level characters in many regards. Fall Out 76 is similar but I havent played enough to figure out all the nuances there. 


    So you have 5 active skills and 5 passive skills in a skill line and you unlock the 1st one by gaining 500 experience in that skill line but you need 10,000,000 XP to unlock number 10, and skills number 8, 9 and 10 are the only ones widely used in any end-game meta build and that's not vertical? 

    And the new characters are better than higher level characters bit? Fucking priceless. It would take the worst player in the history of ESO to not come up with a better build with 200-400 skill points available vs the 6 or 7 you have at level 10.

    LMAO.

    I didnt say that. I said new toons at level 1 are better at mitigating and doing damage that max level players. It might be 'naked' I dont know. but everyone knows that new players are buffed to high heaven in ESO. What actual factors those are I amnot positive but I am sure some peopel have tried to surmise them somewhere and somehow. 

    Or all of that coudhave ben scrapped with the CP system. Again not sure. But I remember when they redid everything and got rid of 'level' gates and let you go and start on any map they 'balanced' new characters out at max level versus open world enemies that in most cases made them stronger than maxed out characters in a lot of ways.

    I havent sarted a new toon in awhile but even if I did it would still have 600 or so CP tospend, I supose without spending them it could be 'trsted' to see if it were accurate.

    But losing the tress for the forest here. ESO has BOTH types of progression (as limited as they are)

    That is an urban legend. A level 1 character can not mitigate better than a fully leveled character.

    Yes they do get an extra buff from level 1 to level 33. It's a hidden buff but I was on the PTR before they hid the numbers, You get 100% of the buff at level 1 and it diminished by 3% per level until it totally falls off at level 34. That is in addition to the buff everyone under CP 160 gets which is also done on a diminishing basis but in that case from level 1 to level 50 CP 160.

    That is just the math behind the scaling and it's needed to give low level players without any good active or passive skills a chance.

    But in no way shape or form are they mitigating more than anyone who knows how to build their character using the better active and passive skills available to them but nt to the low level character.

    There are also twinked low level players same as in WOW and many other games because the CP system applies to all characters in an account. If your main is CP 800 (or whatever the max usable is right now) you can create a level 1 alt and use 800 CP on that level 1 to twink the crap out of it. Now those twinks at low levels can in fact be better than a higher level character on a new account that has no CP passives to play with. It's no different in effect from WOW low level characters decked out in heirloom gear.

    But that is the only case where a low level can actually be better than a higher level.

    If you compare twink to twink the higher level one wins hands down and if you're comparing new account with no CP to new account with no CP the same applies.
    so you agree with my ORIGINAL statement that there IS horizontal progression because those new skills players learn as they level up make them stronger than even a twinked out (vertical CP points) character will be.

    NEW skills are HORIZONTAL. Leveling them up once you learn them is VERTICAL. Simple question are you 'stronger' before or after you learn them? 

    People can play the semantics game all they want. Many games have horizontal progression, but even the ones that do do so in a lazy way. ESO included. But they offer more skills than any other game I can think of. As in a single toon can learn X amount of skills available. EVE might be close but I havent played that game in forever so not sure what you can and cant learn there now.
    tzervo
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,311
    edited May 26
    rodarin said:
    Iselin said:
    rodarin said:
    Iselin said:
    rodarin said:
    Iselin said:
    Kyleran said:
    bcbully said:
    ESO says “Hi”.



    pre-champion system still all in all even with 
    ESO clearly has several forms of progression,  eschewing just one of many possible designs.


    What ESO has is several different vertical systems not tied to character levels and much smaller power gaps than other MMOs, A lot of that thanks to the full level scaling from level 1 to level 50 CP 160.

    I like the system but many hate it because they're not progressing fast enough for their taste. Probably the WOW refugees who still miss WOW :)

    But everything related to combat power is still vertical even if the vertical axis is smaller and progression is more subtle. Leveling the Undaunted skill line by running more dungeons is vertical with the better skills you get from it at the higher tiers of the skill line. Leveling the 2 PvP skill lines independent of character level is the same and so is every guild skill line, weapon and armor lines, etc.

    It's a system that gives you more choices about what you can level and how you level those things but it's still very much vertical.


    ESO is horizontal with the skills you learn. When you start you know like 2 or 3 basic skills then you unlock and advance the others with use. Unlocking skills is most definitely horizontal, you can play semantics with how their mitigation system works where new characters are better than higher level characters in many regards. Fall Out 76 is similar but I havent played enough to figure out all the nuances there. 


    So you have 5 active skills and 5 passive skills in a skill line and you unlock the 1st one by gaining 500 experience in that skill line but you need 10,000,000 XP to unlock number 10, and skills number 8, 9 and 10 are the only ones widely used in any end-game meta build and that's not vertical? 

    And the new characters are better than higher level characters bit? Fucking priceless. It would take the worst player in the history of ESO to not come up with a better build with 200-400 skill points available vs the 6 or 7 you have at level 10.

    LMAO.

    I didnt say that. I said new toons at level 1 are better at mitigating and doing damage that max level players. It might be 'naked' I dont know. but everyone knows that new players are buffed to high heaven in ESO. What actual factors those are I amnot positive but I am sure some peopel have tried to surmise them somewhere and somehow. 

    Or all of that coudhave ben scrapped with the CP system. Again not sure. But I remember when they redid everything and got rid of 'level' gates and let you go and start on any map they 'balanced' new characters out at max level versus open world enemies that in most cases made them stronger than maxed out characters in a lot of ways.

    I havent sarted a new toon in awhile but even if I did it would still have 600 or so CP tospend, I supose without spending them it could be 'trsted' to see if it were accurate.

    But losing the tress for the forest here. ESO has BOTH types of progression (as limited as they are)

    That is an urban legend. A level 1 character can not mitigate better than a fully leveled character.

    Yes they do get an extra buff from level 1 to level 33. It's a hidden buff but I was on the PTR before they hid the numbers, You get 100% of the buff at level 1 and it diminished by 3% per level until it totally falls off at level 34. That is in addition to the buff everyone under CP 160 gets which is also done on a diminishing basis but in that case from level 1 to level 50 CP 160.

    That is just the math behind the scaling and it's needed to give low level players without any good active or passive skills a chance.

    But in no way shape or form are they mitigating more than anyone who knows how to build their character using the better active and passive skills available to them but nt to the low level character.

    There are also twinked low level players same as in WOW and many other games because the CP system applies to all characters in an account. If your main is CP 800 (or whatever the max usable is right now) you can create a level 1 alt and use 800 CP on that level 1 to twink the crap out of it. Now those twinks at low levels can in fact be better than a higher level character on a new account that has no CP passives to play with. It's no different in effect from WOW low level characters decked out in heirloom gear.

    But that is the only case where a low level can actually be better than a higher level.

    If you compare twink to twink the higher level one wins hands down and if you're comparing new account with no CP to new account with no CP the same applies.
    so you agree with my ORIGINAL statement that there IS horizontal progression because those new skills players learn as they level up make them stronger than even a twinked out (vertical CP points) character will be.

    NEW skills are HORIZONTAL. Leveling them up once you learn them is VERTICAL. Simple question are you 'stronger' before or after you learn them? 

    People can play the semantics game all they want. Many games have horizontal progression, but even the ones that do do so in a lazy way. ESO included. But they offer more skills than any other game I can think of. As in a single toon can learn X amount of skills available. EVE might be close but I havent played that game in forever so not sure what you can and cant learn there now.
    It has trivial horizontal game play elements in that you can abandon progressing vertically in one skill line like say 2HD weapons and you can start leveling Dual Wielding instead and go through the dual wielding vertical progression.

    Getting back to my original post in this thread that type of horizontal game play that some call progression is very similar to just rolling a different class in games that have everything class locked. You level a Warlock in WOW and then you put that down and level a Mage... you just went horizontal with your game play but not your progression. The only difference in ESO is that you can do it by rolling a new class OR by just picking up a new skill line to level that isn't class specific.

    The word progression to me implies vertical whether it's done by by small bits or large amounts. If you want to say that ESO has horizontal game play elements I would agree but all of its progression is vertical,

    You can call it semantics all you want but words matter,


    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
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  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,167
    rodarin said:
    Iselin said:
    rodarin said:
    Iselin said:
    rodarin said:
    Iselin said:
    Kyleran said:
    bcbully said:
    ESO says “Hi”.



    pre-champion system still all in all even with 
    ESO clearly has several forms of progression,  eschewing just one of many possible designs.


    What ESO has is several different vertical systems not tied to character levels and much smaller power gaps than other MMOs, A lot of that thanks to the full level scaling from level 1 to level 50 CP 160.

    I like the system but many hate it because they're not progressing fast enough for their taste. Probably the WOW refugees who still miss WOW :)

    But everything related to combat power is still vertical even if the vertical axis is smaller and progression is more subtle. Leveling the Undaunted skill line by running more dungeons is vertical with the better skills you get from it at the higher tiers of the skill line. Leveling the 2 PvP skill lines independent of character level is the same and so is every guild skill line, weapon and armor lines, etc.

    It's a system that gives you more choices about what you can level and how you level those things but it's still very much vertical.


    ESO is horizontal with the skills you learn. When you start you know like 2 or 3 basic skills then you unlock and advance the others with use. Unlocking skills is most definitely horizontal, you can play semantics with how their mitigation system works where new characters are better than higher level characters in many regards. Fall Out 76 is similar but I havent played enough to figure out all the nuances there. 


    So you have 5 active skills and 5 passive skills in a skill line and you unlock the 1st one by gaining 500 experience in that skill line but you need 10,000,000 XP to unlock number 10, and skills number 8, 9 and 10 are the only ones widely used in any end-game meta build and that's not vertical? 

    And the new characters are better than higher level characters bit? Fucking priceless. It would take the worst player in the history of ESO to not come up with a better build with 200-400 skill points available vs the 6 or 7 you have at level 10.

    LMAO.

    I didnt say that. I said new toons at level 1 are better at mitigating and doing damage that max level players. It might be 'naked' I dont know. but everyone knows that new players are buffed to high heaven in ESO. What actual factors those are I amnot positive but I am sure some peopel have tried to surmise them somewhere and somehow. 

    Or all of that coudhave ben scrapped with the CP system. Again not sure. But I remember when they redid everything and got rid of 'level' gates and let you go and start on any map they 'balanced' new characters out at max level versus open world enemies that in most cases made them stronger than maxed out characters in a lot of ways.

    I havent sarted a new toon in awhile but even if I did it would still have 600 or so CP tospend, I supose without spending them it could be 'trsted' to see if it were accurate.

    But losing the tress for the forest here. ESO has BOTH types of progression (as limited as they are)

    That is an urban legend. A level 1 character can not mitigate better than a fully leveled character.

    Yes they do get an extra buff from level 1 to level 33. It's a hidden buff but I was on the PTR before they hid the numbers, You get 100% of the buff at level 1 and it diminished by 3% per level until it totally falls off at level 34. That is in addition to the buff everyone under CP 160 gets which is also done on a diminishing basis but in that case from level 1 to level 50 CP 160.

    That is just the math behind the scaling and it's needed to give low level players without any good active or passive skills a chance.

    But in no way shape or form are they mitigating more than anyone who knows how to build their character using the better active and passive skills available to them but nt to the low level character.

    There are also twinked low level players same as in WOW and many other games because the CP system applies to all characters in an account. If your main is CP 800 (or whatever the max usable is right now) you can create a level 1 alt and use 800 CP on that level 1 to twink the crap out of it. Now those twinks at low levels can in fact be better than a higher level character on a new account that has no CP passives to play with. It's no different in effect from WOW low level characters decked out in heirloom gear.

    But that is the only case where a low level can actually be better than a higher level.

    If you compare twink to twink the higher level one wins hands down and if you're comparing new account with no CP to new account with no CP the same applies.
    so you agree with my ORIGINAL statement that there IS horizontal progression because those new skills players learn as they level up make them stronger than even a twinked out (vertical CP points) character will be.

    NEW skills are HORIZONTAL. Leveling them up once you learn them is VERTICAL. Simple question are you 'stronger' before or after you learn them? 

    People can play the semantics game all they want. Many games have horizontal progression, but even the ones that do do so in a lazy way. ESO included. But they offer more skills than any other game I can think of. As in a single toon can learn X amount of skills available. EVE might be close but I havent played that game in forever so not sure what you can and cant learn there now.
    EVE had 403 skills back in 2014, there's more now but no one seems to bother counting these days.

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

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  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,098
    Horizontal progression does have vertical progression.  The horizontal progression is baseline for the character.

    If you think about it as building.  Vertical progression is like a 100 floor tower.  You climb the tower and decorate a room on each with gear and abilities. If you are on the 100th floor you really aren't hanging out with the person on the first. Just those on the same floor in adjacent rooms.

    Horizontal progression is like a rancher. While you don't have 100 rooms you have one house you decorate with gear and abilities.   Everyone in the neighborhood can interact no problem because they are all on the same level.

    Games are inherently number based so possibilities are limitless. You can still have content locked by gear but it doesn't have to make it power based.  Maybe you need to get material from fire drakes to craft fire resistant gear to allow you to enter lava zone.  The only thing horizontal prevents is your one shotting low level creatures. It's not that big of a deal as people make it out to be but at the same time gets rid of the level treadmill a lot of people hate.
    tzervo
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,158
    Horizontal progression does have vertical progression.  The horizontal progression is baseline for the character.

    If you think about it as building.  Vertical progression is like a 100 floor tower.  You climb the tower and decorate a room on each with gear and abilities. If you are on the 100th floor you really aren't hanging out with the person on the first. Just those on the same floor in adjacent rooms.

    Horizontal progression is like a rancher. While you don't have 100 rooms you have one house you decorate with gear and abilities.   Everyone in the neighborhood can interact no problem because they are all on the same level.

    Games are inherently number based so possibilities are limitless. You can still have content locked by gear but it doesn't have to make it power based.  Maybe you need to get material from fire drakes to craft fire resistant gear to allow you to enter lava zone.  The only thing horizontal prevents is your one shotting low level creatures. It's not that big of a deal as people make it out to be but at the same time gets rid of the level treadmill a lot of people hate.

    So... the "level treadmill" is replaced by... what? It's just another treadmill, just without character advancement, either by attributes, skills/spells, or gear. You know... "numbers."

    So you get that fire drake material to open up a new zone. You finish that zone and then what? A frost drake for an Ice zone? Then an iron golem for an iron zone? Still looks like a treadmill to me, without the advantage of noticeable character development.

    Am I missing something here?

    I mean, if players really want this, it should happen. I just can't see myself playing this game for very long, if at all.
    Kyleranphoenixfire2Sensai

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,346
    AlBQuirky said:
    Horizontal progression does have vertical progression.  The horizontal progression is baseline for the character.

    If you think about it as building.  Vertical progression is like a 100 floor tower.  You climb the tower and decorate a room on each with gear and abilities. If you are on the 100th floor you really aren't hanging out with the person on the first. Just those on the same floor in adjacent rooms.

    Horizontal progression is like a rancher. While you don't have 100 rooms you have one house you decorate with gear and abilities.   Everyone in the neighborhood can interact no problem because they are all on the same level.

    Games are inherently number based so possibilities are limitless. You can still have content locked by gear but it doesn't have to make it power based.  Maybe you need to get material from fire drakes to craft fire resistant gear to allow you to enter lava zone.  The only thing horizontal prevents is your one shotting low level creatures. It's not that big of a deal as people make it out to be but at the same time gets rid of the level treadmill a lot of people hate.

    So... the "level treadmill" is replaced by... what? It's just another treadmill, just without character advancement, either by attributes, skills/spells, or gear. You know... "numbers."

    So you get that fire drake material to open up a new zone. You finish that zone and then what? A frost drake for an Ice zone? Then an iron golem for an iron zone? Still looks like a treadmill to me, without the advantage of noticeable character development.

    Am I missing something here?

    I mean, if players really want this, it should happen. I just can't see myself playing this game for very long, if at all.
    The reason you do that is because you don't want one part of game to affect another part of the game.

    There may be people that don't want to do the zone at all to get fire resistant gear.  But they can still pvp in equal footing with other players.
    AlBQuirky
  • lahnmirlahnmir Member LegendaryPosts: 3,530
    AAAMEOW said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Horizontal progression does have vertical progression.  The horizontal progression is baseline for the character.

    If you think about it as building.  Vertical progression is like a 100 floor tower.  You climb the tower and decorate a room on each with gear and abilities. If you are on the 100th floor you really aren't hanging out with the person on the first. Just those on the same floor in adjacent rooms.

    Horizontal progression is like a rancher. While you don't have 100 rooms you have one house you decorate with gear and abilities.   Everyone in the neighborhood can interact no problem because they are all on the same level.

    Games are inherently number based so possibilities are limitless. You can still have content locked by gear but it doesn't have to make it power based.  Maybe you need to get material from fire drakes to craft fire resistant gear to allow you to enter lava zone.  The only thing horizontal prevents is your one shotting low level creatures. It's not that big of a deal as people make it out to be but at the same time gets rid of the level treadmill a lot of people hate.

    So... the "level treadmill" is replaced by... what? It's just another treadmill, just without character advancement, either by attributes, skills/spells, or gear. You know... "numbers."

    So you get that fire drake material to open up a new zone. You finish that zone and then what? A frost drake for an Ice zone? Then an iron golem for an iron zone? Still looks like a treadmill to me, without the advantage of noticeable character development.

    Am I missing something here?

    I mean, if players really want this, it should happen. I just can't see myself playing this game for very long, if at all.
    The reason you do that is because you don't want one part of game to affect another part of the game.

    There may be people that don't want to do the zone at all to get fire resistant gear.  But they can still pvp in equal footing with other players.
    But wouldn’t that be ‘pick your progress?’ Which would still be vertical only split up in pieces where you are able to pick the piece you like.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    AlBQuirky
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...



    'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless. 

    It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.

    It is just huge resource waste....'

    Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer

  • phoenixfire2phoenixfire2 Member UncommonPosts: 143
    There's a place for both systems although I greatly prefer vertical progression.  I do enjoy hopping back into GW2 sometimes and my ascended gear that I crafted years ago is still the best gear, but I also get bored pretty quickly; and while I can't fully attribute that to the lack of gear/leveling progression, it's a large part of it for me. 
    AlBQuirkyKyleran
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,098
    AlBQuirky said:
    Horizontal progression does have vertical progression.  The horizontal progression is baseline for the character.

    If you think about it as building.  Vertical progression is like a 100 floor tower.  You climb the tower and decorate a room on each with gear and abilities. If you are on the 100th floor you really aren't hanging out with the person on the first. Just those on the same floor in adjacent rooms.

    Horizontal progression is like a rancher. While you don't have 100 rooms you have one house you decorate with gear and abilities.   Everyone in the neighborhood can interact no problem because they are all on the same level.

    Games are inherently number based so possibilities are limitless. You can still have content locked by gear but it doesn't have to make it power based.  Maybe you need to get material from fire drakes to craft fire resistant gear to allow you to enter lava zone.  The only thing horizontal prevents is your one shotting low level creatures. It's not that big of a deal as people make it out to be but at the same time gets rid of the level treadmill a lot of people hate.

    So... the "level treadmill" is replaced by... what? It's just another treadmill, just without character advancement, either by attributes, skills/spells, or gear. You know... "numbers."

    So you get that fire drake material to open up a new zone. You finish that zone and then what? A frost drake for an Ice zone? Then an iron golem for an iron zone? Still looks like a treadmill to me, without the advantage of noticeable character development.

    Am I missing something here?

    I mean, if players really want this, it should happen. I just can't see myself playing this game for very long, if at all.
    Again, that is an example. There are many ways to do it. In that why my first sentence I said there are limitless ways to do things. But to expand on that idea it is more about getting items that make a difference in gameplay.  It could be wings to fight in an air realm, sled or ski in a snow realm or any numerous things that help you adapt to changing challenges.  

    If levels introduced more and more tactics to deal with maybe it would worth it.  But level 1-50 it's the same type quest, same generic NPCs with different skins and the same power differences between NPCs and yourself.  The only thing keeping players going is stacking numbers with gear or new number moving abilities. If you like that achievement repeated from 2004 sure. It's tired mechanic to me.


    AlBQuirkytzervo
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