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If I've Gotten to Max Level in One Wow-Clone MMORPG, I've Gotten to Max Level in Them All

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  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,311
    Iselin said:
    Iselin said:
    WOW clones don't exist because Blizzard would sue the shit out of them if they did,

    Have games copied a lot of elements from successful games that preceded them? Of course. It happens every day in every gaming genre.

    The truly unique games with nothing noticeably copied from other games (if you copy things from obscure games not many will notice) are the rare unicorns.

    Calling theme parks with some things that resemble WOW a clone is just shallow and superficial dismissive gamer slang. LOTRO was called a WOW clone and so was ESO but if you actually play LOTRO, ESO and WOW you'd never be confused about which of the 3 you're playing.
    Semantics.

    Okay, so there not exactly clones.  That's a bit of hyperbole.

    However, most AAA MMORPGs are Themeparks on Rails.  And I included all the most essential elements which these Themeparks on Rails contain.
    More than a bit of hyperbole.

    The three games I mentioned, WOW, LOTRO, and ESO use most if not all of the elements you included. Do they feel like you're playing the same game to you? They don't to me.

    I already mentioned that I haven't played ESO enough to form a strong personal opinion on it.  In my first post.

    As for Lotro, I tried it once, but didn't find it interesting enough to keep playing past lvl 20 or so.  Part of that may because I already know how the story ends. 
    I can save you the trouble. ESO resembles a Skyrim and Dark Age of Camelot mash-up much more than anything else and yet it has everything you listed in your bullet points more or less.

    I have played both WOW and ESO a lot over the years and I never once felt like I was playing WOW when playing ESO. The way things are put together and the small and big differences is what gives each one of them their own flavor.

    You can either enjoy that or not but like I said dismissing them as WOW clones is just very shallow thinking, Details matter.


    phoenixfire2Sovrathbcbully
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,311
    Iselin said:
    WOW clones don't exist because Blizzard would sue the shit out of them if they did,

    Have games copied a lot of elements from successful games that preceded them? Of course. It happens every day in every gaming genre.

    The truly unique games with nothing noticeably copied from other games (if you copy things from obscure games not many will notice) are the rare unicorns.

    Calling theme parks with some things that resemble WOW a clone is just shallow and superficial dismissive gamer slang. LOTRO was called a WOW clone and so was ESO but if you actually play LOTRO, ESO and WOW you'd never be confused about which of the 3 you're playing.
    They don't have to be exactly the same.  If you played a side scroller game with a painter that grew after it hit a green pepper out of a floating box you might have a Mario clone. Sure you might spit fire instead of shoot fireballs after you eat jalapeno out of a box but does that really make it less of a clone?

    I am bored gamer at this point with all genre but MMORPG are the worst. I just can't tolerate doing another pointless task. No I don't want to deliver crap you have. No I don't want to kill shit and give you their bits. 20 hours of repeating this crap then end game on repeat of a few dungeons or raids. It's tired.
    Well if you hate cars you could also say that a Porsche is a VW clone. 4 wheels; internal combustion engine; you sit down and use a steering wheel gas pedal and brakes.

    If you like cars you'd laugh at the guy saying a Porsche is a VW clone. 
    tzervo
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • achesomaachesoma Member RarePosts: 1,228
    Iselin said:
    Iselin said:
    WOW clones don't exist because Blizzard would sue the shit out of them if they did,

    Have games copied a lot of elements from successful games that preceded them? Of course. It happens every day in every gaming genre.

    The truly unique games with nothing noticeably copied from other games (if you copy things from obscure games not many will notice) are the rare unicorns.

    Calling theme parks with some things that resemble WOW a clone is just shallow and superficial dismissive gamer slang. LOTRO was called a WOW clone and so was ESO but if you actually play LOTRO, ESO and WOW you'd never be confused about which of the 3 you're playing.
    They don't have to be exactly the same.  If you played a side scroller game with a painter that grew after it hit a green pepper out of a floating box you might have a Mario clone. Sure you might spit fire instead of shoot fireballs after you eat jalapeno out of a box but does that really make it less of a clone?

    I am bored gamer at this point with all genre but MMORPG are the worst. I just can't tolerate doing another pointless task. No I don't want to deliver crap you have. No I don't want to kill shit and give you their bits. 20 hours of repeating this crap then end game on repeat of a few dungeons or raids. It's tired.
    Well if you hate cars you could also say that a Porsche is a VW clone. 4 wheels; internal combustion engine; you sit down and use a steering wheel gas pedal and brakes.

    If you like cars you'd laugh at the guy saying a Porsche is a VW clone. 

    Porsche is made by VW.
    Iselinmoshratzervo
    Image result for pantheon mmo banners
  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    edited May 21
    This seems to be a case of maybe the MMO genre just isn't your thing?  While I don't disagree with your premise that they all fundamentally offer the same experience, I still personally enjoy a lot of MMOs and look forward to future ones. 

    They all bring differences in their own way, be it story/lore, class variety, combat mechanics, npc interactions, social elements etc. that keep them different enough to make up for their "sameyness".

    No.

    Isn't there, or can't there be, a large difference between an experience a player would have in Non-linear/Sandbox MMORPG as opposed to a Linear/Themepark MMORPG?

    Yes in the ways I described.  The stories will be different.  The quests will be different.  The class you're playing will be different.  The combat will likely be one of a few things (action, tab target, turn based etc). 

    Fundamentally though, no they're not that different, they follow a formula which is: start weak/naked, perform heroic deeds, get stronger incrementally, collect gear, get stronger so you can get more gear to get stronger to get more gear.  You get the point. 

    Not many MMOs stray from this kind of formula of vertical progression.  GW2 employs horizontal progression (at endgame), so maybe you should try that one if the others aren't working out for you.  If you already tried it then, sorry, kinda back to maybe you just don't like MMOs in their current form?
    A Non-linear/Sandbox MMORPG doesn't have to just be about combat.  Nor does Combat Power Progression need to be the only or even the principal means of progressing and attaining power in an MMORPG.  Just as there are different types of power and different way to progress in the real world, there can be different types of power and different ways to progress in an MMORPG.  Vertical Combat Power Progression can be more limited and reasonable/realistic if the game allows other ways in which players can progress their characters.  MMORPGs can allow for regression as well.


    There's a large difference between saying I don't like Linear/Themepark on Rails MMORPGs and saying I don't like MMORPGs.


    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


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  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    Iselin said:
    Iselin said:
    Iselin said:
    WOW clones don't exist because Blizzard would sue the shit out of them if they did,

    Have games copied a lot of elements from successful games that preceded them? Of course. It happens every day in every gaming genre.

    The truly unique games with nothing noticeably copied from other games (if you copy things from obscure games not many will notice) are the rare unicorns.

    Calling theme parks with some things that resemble WOW a clone is just shallow and superficial dismissive gamer slang. LOTRO was called a WOW clone and so was ESO but if you actually play LOTRO, ESO and WOW you'd never be confused about which of the 3 you're playing.
    Semantics.

    Okay, so there not exactly clones.  That's a bit of hyperbole.

    However, most AAA MMORPGs are Themeparks on Rails.  And I included all the most essential elements which these Themeparks on Rails contain.
    More than a bit of hyperbole.

    The three games I mentioned, WOW, LOTRO, and ESO use most if not all of the elements you included. Do they feel like you're playing the same game to you? They don't to me.

    I already mentioned that I haven't played ESO enough to form a strong personal opinion on it.  In my first post.

    As for Lotro, I tried it once, but didn't find it interesting enough to keep playing past lvl 20 or so.  Part of that may because I already know how the story ends. 
    I can save you the trouble. ESO resembles a Skyrim and Dark Age of Camelot mash-up much more than anything else and yet it has everything you listed in your bullet points more or less.

    I have played both WOW and ESO a lot over the years and I never once felt like I was playing WOW when playing ESO. The way things are put together and the small and big differences is what gives each one of them their own flavor.

    You can either enjoy that or not but like I said dismissing them as WOW clones is just very shallow thinking, Details matter.



    Again, I did not say in this thread that ESO is a WoW Clone.  Did you read the entirety of my first post?  Anyway, what are the most important things about ESO that make the experience different from playing WoW?
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • phoenixfire2phoenixfire2 Member UncommonPosts: 143
    This seems to be a case of maybe the MMO genre just isn't your thing?  While I don't disagree with your premise that they all fundamentally offer the same experience, I still personally enjoy a lot of MMOs and look forward to future ones. 

    They all bring differences in their own way, be it story/lore, class variety, combat mechanics, npc interactions, social elements etc. that keep them different enough to make up for their "sameyness".

    No.

    Isn't there, or can't there be, a large difference between an experience a player would have in Non-linear/Sandbox MMORPG as opposed to a Linear/Themepark MMORPG?

    Yes in the ways I described.  The stories will be different.  The quests will be different.  The class you're playing will be different.  The combat will likely be one of a few things (action, tab target, turn based etc). 

    Fundamentally though, no they're not that different, they follow a formula which is: start weak/naked, perform heroic deeds, get stronger incrementally, collect gear, get stronger so you can get more gear to get stronger to get more gear.  You get the point. 

    Not many MMOs stray from this kind of formula of vertical progression.  GW2 employs horizontal progression (at endgame), so maybe you should try that one if the others aren't working out for you.  If you already tried it then, sorry, kinda back to maybe you just don't like MMOs in their current form?
    A Non-linear/Sandbox MMORPG doesn't have to just be about combat.  Nor does Combat Power Progression need to be the only or even the principal means of progressing and attaining power in an MMORPG.  Just as there are different types of power and different way to progress in the real world, there can be different types of power and different ways to progress in an MMORPG.  Vertical Combat Power Progression can be more limited and reasonable/realistic if the game allows other ways in which to progress their characters. 


    There's a large difference between saying I don't like Linear/Themepark on Rails MMORPGs and saying I don't like MMORPGs.



    It doesn't have to be combat-oriented it's just that like 99% of them are.  I think there are some MMOs that you can progress without ever attacking an enemy, like with crafting and other activities, but I've never played one like that personally.  I also prefer a sandbox style to a themepark, but at the same time disagree that all themeparks are the same which is objectively false.  They share fundamental similarities the same way any two things of similar styles/genres do but are demonstrably different in a whole host of ways.  Devil's in the details I suppose.


  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,815
    Why are we bringing this topic up now? This conversation is about 8 years too late.
    bcbullyDibdabs
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,666
    It is why i am not playing any mmorpg's right now,they are VERY lazy designs.Nobody wants to create content,they want to create grinds because it is easier ,takes less effort,less time,less manpower.

    I could play FFXI and at least play a REAL pet class,that makes the Hunter look like Romper Room but still eventually i know what mmorpg's are doing ,always END GAME instead of A GAME full of content ,events.

    We can lower the crappy designs one more denominator,these end games happen in INSTANCES...ROFLMAO.So you hear all these people crying about "that isn't a mmo"oh yes and an INSTANCE is ?
    Ancient_Exile

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,138
    I think as a aplayer, you need to know what you are looking for, what will provide it.

    I mean we could say all Console games boil down to 10 buttons and 2 joysticks that you need to press in the right order to win.

    As crudely simple as that sounds, and while not factually incorrect, it does disservice to vast array of games one can play on a controller. 

    With that said, MMO by their nature are games designed to entertain a massive number of players simultaneously, hence the "Massive" aspect of the MMO name, How each one does that, varies. However, for an MMO to remain entertaining to its base, that means some restrictions and limitations must be put in place so that what is entertaining cannot in effect be taken away. 

    Often times this results in a kind of static world, a world that does not change, and while players can do things in that world, they cannot change it in a way that would make the world less fun for the other players, new and old.

    This is often a safety feature of MMO's, this in no way means they are alike. In fact the OP is presenting a very rudimentary bases, akin to saying, if you have played one game of chess you have played them all, and basing that stand on the principle that the board and pieces don't change. While they are factually correct, anyone that enjoys playing Chess would be very quick to note that each game can be a very unique experience.

    I believe the same is very true for anyone that enjoys playing a style of game, they will pick out and appreciate the uniqueness of each game they play, that is part of the appeal of being a lover of that game style.

    This is why I wager that players that enjoy MMO could spend countless hours debating and discussing the nuanced differences between each and every MMO, as well as talking about various unique experiences they had while playing the game.

    As far as the OP goes, I am going to respectfully disagree that if you have played One MMO, that you have played them all, and while many MMO's will share elements with WoW, that does not make them clones, anymore then someone could say that Chess and Checkers are clones, after all, they use the same board, the basic idea of pieces, and both have Kings, but I think anyone that enjoys Chess or Checkers.. would strongly disagree they were clones.

    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,311
    Iselin said:
    Iselin said:
    Iselin said:
    WOW clones don't exist because Blizzard would sue the shit out of them if they did,

    Have games copied a lot of elements from successful games that preceded them? Of course. It happens every day in every gaming genre.

    The truly unique games with nothing noticeably copied from other games (if you copy things from obscure games not many will notice) are the rare unicorns.

    Calling theme parks with some things that resemble WOW a clone is just shallow and superficial dismissive gamer slang. LOTRO was called a WOW clone and so was ESO but if you actually play LOTRO, ESO and WOW you'd never be confused about which of the 3 you're playing.
    Semantics.

    Okay, so there not exactly clones.  That's a bit of hyperbole.

    However, most AAA MMORPGs are Themeparks on Rails.  And I included all the most essential elements which these Themeparks on Rails contain.
    More than a bit of hyperbole.

    The three games I mentioned, WOW, LOTRO, and ESO use most if not all of the elements you included. Do they feel like you're playing the same game to you? They don't to me.

    I already mentioned that I haven't played ESO enough to form a strong personal opinion on it.  In my first post.

    As for Lotro, I tried it once, but didn't find it interesting enough to keep playing past lvl 20 or so.  Part of that may because I already know how the story ends. 
    I can save you the trouble. ESO resembles a Skyrim and Dark Age of Camelot mash-up much more than anything else and yet it has everything you listed in your bullet points more or less.

    I have played both WOW and ESO a lot over the years and I never once felt like I was playing WOW when playing ESO. The way things are put together and the small and big differences is what gives each one of them their own flavor.

    You can either enjoy that or not but like I said dismissing them as WOW clones is just very shallow thinking, Details matter.



    Again, I did not say in this thread that ESO is a WoW Clone.  Did you read the entirety of my first post?  Anyway, what are the most important things about ESO that make the experience different from playing WoW?
    Too many to detail but the big ones are that ESO has a hybrid class/open character development system with more skill lines in the open part than the 3 unique to each class. It's also full on level scaled so the progression feels much more horizontal than verical and new content doesn't raise the level cap at all.

    It is also totally reliant on sets - some crafted and some drops - for gearing with the literally hundreds of sets conferring often unique bonuses. Those sets are also the same at all levels just weaker until you get to the CP160 gear level cap that has been the same cap for 4 years. You can also improve the quality of gear whether crafted or dropped, including set gear, by crafting.

    It also has a system of progression past the level cap with Champion Points that are very similar to Diablo 3 Paragon points if you know how those work. The system has 3600 possible CP levels that are increase by 120 or less per year. Not sure what the current max is but they're not even a quarter of the way to the 3600.

    And that's just the character development part.

    It also takes itself more seriously without all the goofy WOW humor so more of a high fantasy setting. The quest stories in general are also top notch and fully voiced. Think more SWTOR than WOW.

    The art style is also grittier and nowhere near as cartoony as WOW.

    And then of course it has active defense combat with blocks, dodges, interrupting bashes, etc., and the fan-favorite animation cancelling :)
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,346
    AAAMEOW said:
    If every person quit wow after they reach max level...  The game would be dead in 1 month. 

    Wow isn't dead in 1 month.  In fact it's been running for more than a decade.  And more sustainable than other mmorpg.

    So I don't know what the point of argument is...  Beside hearing constant whine about how you don't enjoy endgame in themepark mmorpg.


    When did I say that every player quit after they got to max level in WoW?

    Yes, there are a number of people who seem to be able to put up with repetitive grind.  I did put up with it for a while in Neverwinter, but I'm can longer put up with it.  There's a better way to design MMORPGs.
    I find sandbox game more grindy to be honest.

    Themepark game at least make things interesting.  They make new dungeon and new raids to keep it interesting.  In sandbox game you just do whatever grind there it is and it is even more mind boggling boring.

    And thing with interesting concept is...  It still won't keep people playing for the long haul.  Things are only interesting the first few times you try it.
    Iselin
  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    Iselin said:

    Again, I did not say in this thread that ESO is a WoW Clone.  Did you read the entirety of my first post?  Anyway, what are the most important things about ESO that make the experience different from playing WoW?
    Too many to detail but the big ones are that ESO has a hybrid class/open character development system with more skill lines in the open part than the 3 unique to each class. It's also full on level scaled so the progression feels much more horizontal than verical and new content doesn't raise the level cap at all.

    It is also totally reliant on sets - some crafted and some drops - for gearing with the literally hundreds of sets conferring often unique bonuses. Those sets are also the same at all levels just weaker until you get to the CP160 gear level cap that has been the same cap for 4 years. You can also improve the quality of gear whether crafted or dropped, including set gear, by crafting.

    It also has a system of progression past the level cap with Champion Points that are very similar to Diablo 3 Paragon points if you know how those work. The system has 3600 possible CP levels that are increase by 120 or less per year. Not sure what the current max is but they're not even a quarter of the way to the 3600.

    And that's just the character development part.

    It also takes itself more seriously without all the goofy WOW humor so more of a high fantasy setting. The quest stories in general are also top notch and fully voiced. Think more SWTOR than WOW.

    The art style is also grittier and nowhere near as cartoony as WOW.

    And then of course it has active defense combat with blocks, dodges, interrupting bashes, etc., and the fan-favorite animation cancelling :)

    Thanks for the info.

    A question about the scaling.  Is it possible to slay a dragon at, say, lvl 10 in ESO?  And what exactly is animation cancelling?  I read a review which mentioned that as something everybody has to learn if they want to be competitive in ESO.
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    edited May 21
    AAAMEOW said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    If every person quit wow after they reach max level...  The game would be dead in 1 month. 

    Wow isn't dead in 1 month.  In fact it's been running for more than a decade.  And more sustainable than other mmorpg.

    So I don't know what the point of argument is...  Beside hearing constant whine about how you don't enjoy endgame in themepark mmorpg.


    When did I say that every player quit after they got to max level in WoW?

    Yes, there are a number of people who seem to be able to put up with repetitive grind.  I did put up with it for a while in Neverwinter, but I'm can longer put up with it.  There's a better way to design MMORPGs.
    I find sandbox game more grindy to be honest.

    Themepark game at least make things interesting.  They make new dungeon and new raids to keep it interesting.  In sandbox game you just do whatever grind there it is and it is even more mind boggling boring.

    And thing with interesting concept is...  It still won't keep people playing for the long haul.  Things are only interesting the first few times you try it.

    How many AAA Sandbox MMORPGs exist?  Btw, I do not consider BDO to be a Sandbox.  Sandpark is a way I've heard it described, though I'm not sure that's quite apt either.  Also a Themepark doesn't necessarily need to be On Rails.  Not if we imagine ourselves in an actual themepark.  On Rails is more of a description of a ride in a Themepark, such as a Rollercoaster.
    Post edited by Ancient_Exile on
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


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  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    Why are we bringing this topic up now? This conversation is about 8 years too late.

    Eight years ago, I hadn't played enough MMORPGs to be able to have this conversation.  Not because I was too young to have played UO or EQ, mind you.  Simply didn't become a habitual player of MMORPGs until 2014. 
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,311
    Iselin said:

    Again, I did not say in this thread that ESO is a WoW Clone.  Did you read the entirety of my first post?  Anyway, what are the most important things about ESO that make the experience different from playing WoW?
    Too many to detail but the big ones are that ESO has a hybrid class/open character development system with more skill lines in the open part than the 3 unique to each class. It's also full on level scaled so the progression feels much more horizontal than verical and new content doesn't raise the level cap at all.

    It is also totally reliant on sets - some crafted and some drops - for gearing with the literally hundreds of sets conferring often unique bonuses. Those sets are also the same at all levels just weaker until you get to the CP160 gear level cap that has been the same cap for 4 years. You can also improve the quality of gear whether crafted or dropped, including set gear, by crafting.

    It also has a system of progression past the level cap with Champion Points that are very similar to Diablo 3 Paragon points if you know how those work. The system has 3600 possible CP levels that are increase by 120 or less per year. Not sure what the current max is but they're not even a quarter of the way to the 3600.

    And that's just the character development part.

    It also takes itself more seriously without all the goofy WOW humor so more of a high fantasy setting. The quest stories in general are also top notch and fully voiced. Think more SWTOR than WOW.

    The art style is also grittier and nowhere near as cartoony as WOW.

    And then of course it has active defense combat with blocks, dodges, interrupting bashes, etc., and the fan-favorite animation cancelling :)

    Thanks for the info.

    A question about the scaling.  Is it possible to slay a dragon at, say, lvl 10 in ESO?  And what exactly is animation cancelling?  I read a review which mentioned that as something everybody has to learn if they want to be competitive in ESO.
    Scaling is only part of the character power. It makes you capable of doing easy content anywhere in the game but the power comes primarily from leveling and allocating points to individual skill lines ot gain its passives and active skills with the better active ones requiring several points invested in that skill line to unlock.

    A level 10 character hasn't acquired enough skill points (which only partially come from leveling - they also come from exploration, quest rewards from some important quests, first completion of a dungeon, etc) to be as powerful as a level 40 character who has unlocked and can use more and better skills.

    Animation cancelling was just a joke aimed at the cancelling haters.

    Because ESO has active defenses those defenses have the ability to cancel anything else you're doing - they have priority. That's all fine so far. But ESO uses the damage or healing calculations at the very beginning of an action just after you press the key. So players have figured out ways to cancel out of animations to fire off many more skills in the same time frame because there is no penalty to their healing or damage (except for channeled skills) for canceling them. Many people hate that and consider it cheesy.


    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    Iselin said:
    Iselin said:

    Again, I did not say in this thread that ESO is a WoW Clone.  Did you read the entirety of my first post?  Anyway, what are the most important things about ESO that make the experience different from playing WoW?
    Too many to detail but the big ones are that ESO has a hybrid class/open character development system with more skill lines in the open part than the 3 unique to each class. It's also full on level scaled so the progression feels much more horizontal than verical and new content doesn't raise the level cap at all.

    It is also totally reliant on sets - some crafted and some drops - for gearing with the literally hundreds of sets conferring often unique bonuses. Those sets are also the same at all levels just weaker until you get to the CP160 gear level cap that has been the same cap for 4 years. You can also improve the quality of gear whether crafted or dropped, including set gear, by crafting.

    It also has a system of progression past the level cap with Champion Points that are very similar to Diablo 3 Paragon points if you know how those work. The system has 3600 possible CP levels that are increase by 120 or less per year. Not sure what the current max is but they're not even a quarter of the way to the 3600.

    And that's just the character development part.

    It also takes itself more seriously without all the goofy WOW humor so more of a high fantasy setting. The quest stories in general are also top notch and fully voiced. Think more SWTOR than WOW.

    The art style is also grittier and nowhere near as cartoony as WOW.

    And then of course it has active defense combat with blocks, dodges, interrupting bashes, etc., and the fan-favorite animation cancelling :)

    Thanks for the info.

    A question about the scaling.  Is it possible to slay a dragon at, say, lvl 10 in ESO?  And what exactly is animation cancelling?  I read a review which mentioned that as something everybody has to learn if they want to be competitive in ESO.
    Scaling is only part of the character power. It makes you capable of doing easy content anywhere in the game but the power comes primarily from leveling and allocating points to individual skill lines ot gain its passives and active skills with the better active ones requiring several points invested in that skill line to unlock.

    A level 10 character hasn't acquired enough skill points (which only partially come from leveling - they also come from exploration, quest rewards from some important quests, first completion of a dungeon, etc) to be as powerful as a level 40 character who has unlocked and can use more and better skills.

    Animation cancelling was just a joke aimed at the cancelling haters.

    Because ESO has active defenses those defenses have the ability to cancel anything else you're doing - they have priority. That's all fine so far. But ESO uses the damage or healing calculations at the very beginning of an action just after you press the key. So players have figured out ways to cancel out of animations to fire off many more skills in the same time frame because there is no penalty to their healing or damage (except for channeled skills) for canceling them. Many people hate that and consider it cheesy.



    Okay, so a lvl 10 character will not be able to slay a dragon in ESO? 

    Animation Cancelling does seem kind of cheesy.  Does Bethesda not want to fix that or do they not consider it an exploit?
    bcbully
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  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,311
    Iselin said:
    Iselin said:

    Again, I did not say in this thread that ESO is a WoW Clone.  Did you read the entirety of my first post?  Anyway, what are the most important things about ESO that make the experience different from playing WoW?
    Too many to detail but the big ones are that ESO has a hybrid class/open character development system with more skill lines in the open part than the 3 unique to each class. It's also full on level scaled so the progression feels much more horizontal than verical and new content doesn't raise the level cap at all.

    It is also totally reliant on sets - some crafted and some drops - for gearing with the literally hundreds of sets conferring often unique bonuses. Those sets are also the same at all levels just weaker until you get to the CP160 gear level cap that has been the same cap for 4 years. You can also improve the quality of gear whether crafted or dropped, including set gear, by crafting.

    It also has a system of progression past the level cap with Champion Points that are very similar to Diablo 3 Paragon points if you know how those work. The system has 3600 possible CP levels that are increase by 120 or less per year. Not sure what the current max is but they're not even a quarter of the way to the 3600.

    And that's just the character development part.

    It also takes itself more seriously without all the goofy WOW humor so more of a high fantasy setting. The quest stories in general are also top notch and fully voiced. Think more SWTOR than WOW.

    The art style is also grittier and nowhere near as cartoony as WOW.

    And then of course it has active defense combat with blocks, dodges, interrupting bashes, etc., and the fan-favorite animation cancelling :)

    Thanks for the info.

    A question about the scaling.  Is it possible to slay a dragon at, say, lvl 10 in ESO?  And what exactly is animation cancelling?  I read a review which mentioned that as something everybody has to learn if they want to be competitive in ESO.
    Scaling is only part of the character power. It makes you capable of doing easy content anywhere in the game but the power comes primarily from leveling and allocating points to individual skill lines ot gain its passives and active skills with the better active ones requiring several points invested in that skill line to unlock.

    A level 10 character hasn't acquired enough skill points (which only partially come from leveling - they also come from exploration, quest rewards from some important quests, first completion of a dungeon, etc) to be as powerful as a level 40 character who has unlocked and can use more and better skills.

    Animation cancelling was just a joke aimed at the cancelling haters.

    Because ESO has active defenses those defenses have the ability to cancel anything else you're doing - they have priority. That's all fine so far. But ESO uses the damage or healing calculations at the very beginning of an action just after you press the key. So players have figured out ways to cancel out of animations to fire off many more skills in the same time frame because there is no penalty to their healing or damage (except for channeled skills) for canceling them. Many people hate that and consider it cheesy.



    Okay, so a lvl 10 character will not be able to slay a dragon in ESO? 

    Animation Cancelling does seem kind of cheesy.  Does Bethesda not want to fix that or do they not consider it an exploit?
    I haven't played since they added dragons but I believe that they are all large casual group or dungeon events. A level 10 could be part of it if careful but wouldn't contribute much.

    Animation canceling is more twitchy than cheesy and many, many action combat games have it, but they are fully aware that it's being done and haven't done anything about it so they at least passively approve.

    It'd be much better if they just change the skill effect to happen at the end of the animation since then you'd have to make a real choice about carrying on and getting damaged yourself or cancelling to prevent damage but lose the effect of what you canceled.

    It's right to criticize the fact that they have done nothing to deal with it but some people just lose their shit over it. It was just one of the negatives when I played it and I just did it when I had to (e.g. the "burn phase" for a boss or a critical moment n PvP) and didn't bother 90% of the time. PvPers that are not good at doing it seem to be the group that hates it the most but that's a dying breed in ESO since the game's performance has gotten worse over time and only a tiny portion of the player base PvPs these days.

    Almost everyone who played it mostly for the PVP in the good old days has moved on. Myself included.
    Ancient_Exile
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    Iselin said:
    Iselin said:
    Iselin said:

    Again, I did not say in this thread that ESO is a WoW Clone.  Did you read the entirety of my first post?  Anyway, what are the most important things about ESO that make the experience different from playing WoW?
    Too many to detail but the big ones are that ESO has a hybrid class/open character development system with more skill lines in the open part than the 3 unique to each class. It's also full on level scaled so the progression feels much more horizontal than verical and new content doesn't raise the level cap at all.

    It is also totally reliant on sets - some crafted and some drops - for gearing with the literally hundreds of sets conferring often unique bonuses. Those sets are also the same at all levels just weaker until you get to the CP160 gear level cap that has been the same cap for 4 years. You can also improve the quality of gear whether crafted or dropped, including set gear, by crafting.

    It also has a system of progression past the level cap with Champion Points that are very similar to Diablo 3 Paragon points if you know how those work. The system has 3600 possible CP levels that are increase by 120 or less per year. Not sure what the current max is but they're not even a quarter of the way to the 3600.

    And that's just the character development part.

    It also takes itself more seriously without all the goofy WOW humor so more of a high fantasy setting. The quest stories in general are also top notch and fully voiced. Think more SWTOR than WOW.

    The art style is also grittier and nowhere near as cartoony as WOW.

    And then of course it has active defense combat with blocks, dodges, interrupting bashes, etc., and the fan-favorite animation cancelling :)

    Thanks for the info.

    A question about the scaling.  Is it possible to slay a dragon at, say, lvl 10 in ESO?  And what exactly is animation cancelling?  I read a review which mentioned that as something everybody has to learn if they want to be competitive in ESO.
    Scaling is only part of the character power. It makes you capable of doing easy content anywhere in the game but the power comes primarily from leveling and allocating points to individual skill lines ot gain its passives and active skills with the better active ones requiring several points invested in that skill line to unlock.

    A level 10 character hasn't acquired enough skill points (which only partially come from leveling - they also come from exploration, quest rewards from some important quests, first completion of a dungeon, etc) to be as powerful as a level 40 character who has unlocked and can use more and better skills.

    Animation cancelling was just a joke aimed at the cancelling haters.

    Because ESO has active defenses those defenses have the ability to cancel anything else you're doing - they have priority. That's all fine so far. But ESO uses the damage or healing calculations at the very beginning of an action just after you press the key. So players have figured out ways to cancel out of animations to fire off many more skills in the same time frame because there is no penalty to their healing or damage (except for channeled skills) for canceling them. Many people hate that and consider it cheesy.



    Okay, so a lvl 10 character will not be able to slay a dragon in ESO? 

    Animation Cancelling does seem kind of cheesy.  Does Bethesda not want to fix that or do they not consider it an exploit?
    I haven't played since they added dragons but I believe that they are all large casual group or dungeon events. A level 10 could be part of it if careful but wouldn't contribute much.

    Animation canceling is more twitchy than cheesy and many, many action combat games have it, but they are fully aware that it's being done and haven't done anything about it so they at least passively approve.

    It'd be much better if they just change the skill effect to happen at the end of the animation since then you'd have to make a real choice about carrying on and getting damaged yourself or cancelling to prevent damage but lose the effect of what you canceled.

    It's right to criticize the fact that they have done nothing to deal with it but some people just lose their shit over it. It was just one of the negatives when I played it and I just did it when I had to (e.g. the "burn phase" for a boss or a critical moment n PvP) and didn't bother 90% of the time. PvPers that are not good at doing it seem to be the group that hates it the most but that's a dying breed in ESO since the game's performance has gotten worse over time and only a tiny portion of the player base PvPs these days.

    Almost everyone who played it mostly for the PVP in the good old days has moved on. Myself included.

    I see. 

    Your solution for the animation cancelling thing sounds good to me.

    So, you're saying that ESO isn't as good as it once was?
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


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  • DarkswormDarksworm Member RarePosts: 1,034
    Iselin said:
    Iselin said:
    Iselin said:
    WOW clones don't exist because Blizzard would sue the shit out of them if they did,

    Have games copied a lot of elements from successful games that preceded them? Of course. It happens every day in every gaming genre.

    The truly unique games with nothing noticeably copied from other games (if you copy things from obscure games not many will notice) are the rare unicorns.

    Calling theme parks with some things that resemble WOW a clone is just shallow and superficial dismissive gamer slang. LOTRO was called a WOW clone and so was ESO but if you actually play LOTRO, ESO and WOW you'd never be confused about which of the 3 you're playing.
    Semantics.

    Okay, so there not exactly clones.  That's a bit of hyperbole.

    However, most AAA MMORPGs are Themeparks on Rails.  And I included all the most essential elements which these Themeparks on Rails contain.
    More than a bit of hyperbole.

    The three games I mentioned, WOW, LOTRO, and ESO use most if not all of the elements you included. Do they feel like you're playing the same game to you? They don't to me.

    I already mentioned that I haven't played ESO enough to form a strong personal opinion on it.  In my first post.

    As for Lotro, I tried it once, but didn't find it interesting enough to keep playing past lvl 20 or so.  Part of that may because I already know how the story ends. 
    I can save you the trouble. ESO resembles a Skyrim and Dark Age of Camelot mash-up much more than anything else and yet it has everything you listed in your bullet points more or less.

    I have played both WOW and ESO a lot over the years and I never once felt like I was playing WOW when playing ESO. The way things are put together and the small and big differences is what gives each one of them their own flavor.

    You can either enjoy that or not but like I said dismissing them as WOW clones is just very shallow thinking, Details matter.


    The content design of WoW and ESO aren't that dissimilar.  It has one more faction in a bigger Wintergrasp-like PvP zone.  That's it.

    But it isn't really that dissimilar.  The controls are different, but that's about it.
    Ancient_Exile
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,311
    So, you're saying that ESO isn't as good as it once was?
    Not to me it isn't. I was lucky in that I played it during its good years.

    Fort one thing it has gone way overboard with both in-game and store bought character and mount customization with the best stuff in loot crates.

    Some customization is just fine but they take it to an obnoxious level. It's a game for fashionistas now :)
    Ancient_Exile
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    Iselin said:
    So, you're saying that ESO isn't as good as it once was?
    Not to me it isn't. I was lucky in that I played it during its good years.

    Fort one thing it has gone way overboard with both in-game and store bought character and mount customization with the best stuff in loot crates.

    Some customization is just fine but they take it to an obnoxious level. It's a game for fashionistas now :)

    Cool.  I think I'll pass on it then.
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


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  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,346
    AAAMEOW said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    If every person quit wow after they reach max level...  The game would be dead in 1 month. 

    Wow isn't dead in 1 month.  In fact it's been running for more than a decade.  And more sustainable than other mmorpg.

    So I don't know what the point of argument is...  Beside hearing constant whine about how you don't enjoy endgame in themepark mmorpg.


    When did I say that every player quit after they got to max level in WoW?

    Yes, there are a number of people who seem to be able to put up with repetitive grind.  I did put up with it for a while in Neverwinter, but I'm can longer put up with it.  There's a better way to design MMORPGs.
    I find sandbox game more grindy to be honest.

    Themepark game at least make things interesting.  They make new dungeon and new raids to keep it interesting.  In sandbox game you just do whatever grind there it is and it is even more mind boggling boring.

    And thing with interesting concept is...  It still won't keep people playing for the long haul.  Things are only interesting the first few times you try it.

    How many AAA Sandbox MMORPGs exist?  Btw, I do not consider BDO to be a Sandbox.  Sandpark is a way I've heard it described, though I'm not sure that's quite apt either.  Also a Themepark doesn't necessarily need to be On Rails.  Not if we imagine ourselves in an actual themepark.  On Rails is more of a description of a ride in a Themepark, such as a Rollercoaster.
    There are natural many repetition in mmorpg.  It doesn't' matter if it is themepark or sandbox.  It's just a way developer keep people from running out of content and quit.

    The grind is probably even worse in sandbox game because most don't get much budget.



  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    edited May 21
    AAAMEOW said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    If every person quit wow after they reach max level...  The game would be dead in 1 month. 

    Wow isn't dead in 1 month.  In fact it's been running for more than a decade.  And more sustainable than other mmorpg.

    So I don't know what the point of argument is...  Beside hearing constant whine about how you don't enjoy endgame in themepark mmorpg.


    When did I say that every player quit after they got to max level in WoW?

    Yes, there are a number of people who seem to be able to put up with repetitive grind.  I did put up with it for a while in Neverwinter, but I'm can longer put up with it.  There's a better way to design MMORPGs.
    I find sandbox game more grindy to be honest.

    Themepark game at least make things interesting.  They make new dungeon and new raids to keep it interesting.  In sandbox game you just do whatever grind there it is and it is even more mind boggling boring.

    And thing with interesting concept is...  It still won't keep people playing for the long haul.  Things are only interesting the first few times you try it.

    How many AAA Sandbox MMORPGs exist?  Btw, I do not consider BDO to be a Sandbox.  Sandpark is a way I've heard it described, though I'm not sure that's quite apt either.  Also a Themepark doesn't necessarily need to be On Rails.  Not if we imagine ourselves in an actual themepark.  On Rails is more of a description of a ride in a Themepark, such as a Rollercoaster.
    There are natural many repetition in mmorpg.  It doesn't' matter if it is themepark or sandbox.  It's just a way developer keep people from running out of content and quit.

    The grind is probably even worse in sandbox game because most don't get much budget.




    A sandbox could be designed with enough different options so that a player isn't forced to do the same thing over and over again repeatedly and consecutively.  Of course a character may need to do the same or similar things again.  People in real life have to do the same things again quite often.  But there are often enough different things to do in-between that life doesn't become totally monotonous. 
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


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  • tzervotzervo Member RarePosts: 324
    edited May 21
    Iselin said:
    More than a bit of hyperbole.

    The three games I mentioned, WOW, LOTRO, and ESO use most if not all of the elements you included. Do they feel like you're playing the same game to you? They don't to me.
    Depending on what you look for in a game, you could see them as being very similar. To me for example most (all?) themeparks are (inlcluding the three you mentioned):

    - Kill stuff in the open world and do quests or a basic story to level up and get average gear (notable exception in terms of quests/story: TSW). Do the same each time content drops.

    - Do instanced dungeons/raids (PvE) or arenas/BG (PvP), getting better gear or cosmetics depending on the game. Again, notable exceptions: GW2 WvW and ESO Cyrodiil.

    You could argue there are differences (sometimes they can even be important) but that's the bones of these games, and they are the same. You could argue that some players read all the quests/play differently but I would expect them to be the exception.

    So you first have to decide whether you like this. If you do, you go ahead and pick your flavor from WoW, ESO, GW2, SWTOR, SWL, FFXIV, LOTRO, STO or any of the smaller ones that are out there, and this is when these differences become important.
    Ancient_Exile
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,311
    tzervo said:
    Iselin said:
    More than a bit of hyperbole.

    The three games I mentioned, WOW, LOTRO, and ESO use most if not all of the elements you included. Do they feel like you're playing the same game to you? They don't to me.
    Depending on what you look for in a game, you could see them as being very similar. To me for example most (all?) themeparks are (inlcluding the three you mentioned):

    - Kill stuff in the open world and do quests or a basic story to level up and get average gear (notable exception in terms of quests/story: TSW). Do the same each time content drops.

    - Do instanced dungeons/raids (PvE) or arenas/BG (PvP), getting better gear or cosmetics depending on the game. Again, notable exceptions: GW2 WvW and ESO Cyrodiil.

    You could argue there are differences (sometimes they can even be important) but that's the bones of these games, and they are the same. You could argue that some players read all the quests/play differently but I would expect them to be the exception.

    So you first have to decide whether you like this. If you do, you go ahead and pick your flavor from WoW, ESO, GW2, SWTOR, SWL, FFXIV, LOTRO, STO or any of the smaller ones that are out there, and this is when these differences become important.
    It's more than anything else a matter of perspective: you can see and dwell on the sameness or the differences.

    And a lot of that can be impacted by mood or just basic personality traits. It's the old glass half full or half empty thing.

    If they all felt the same to me I wouldn't play any of them after I played the first one but I have played most of them because they don't.
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
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