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If I've Gotten to Max Level in One Wow-Clone MMORPG, I've Gotten to Max Level in Them All

Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
edited May 20 in The Pub at MMORPG.COM
Ah, End Game. 

What?  I invested 100+ hours into playing my character for this?  Really?  Are you serious?


WoW Clone = Themepark on Rails

Features of a Themepark on Rails Include:

  • Linear Story-based Progression
  • Static World
  • Basically Unlimited Vertical Combat Power Progression (Limited only until the next expansion/new content is released)
  • Combat Power is Overwhelmingly Gear-Dependent
  • NPC Quest Hubs
  • End Game Grind for Better Gear/Combat Power
  • Raids or other More Difficult/Challenging Content for which the Leveling Path in No Way Prepares New Players
  • Option to Gather/Craft - Most Crafting generally only serves to augment Combat Power
  • Wealth generally only serves to augment Combat Power
  • Besides Raids and/or More Difficult/Challenging Content (which must be repeated however many times in order to get the best gear), End Game consists mainly consists of just doing the same sorts of things that a player did to reach Max Level over and over (and over).  




Not that I like ESO.  I haven't yet played it enough to form a strong personal opinion.  But things I've read about it tend to make me think I might regret spending even $19.99 on it.


World of Warcraft and all of its Clones and Imitators might also be called Skinner Boxes


"'Skinner box' redirects here..."

"Purpose...An operant conditioning chamber permits experimenters to study behavior conditioning (training) by teaching a subject animal to perform certain actions (like pressing a lever) in response to specific stimuli, such as a light or sound signal. When the subject correctly performs the behavior, the chamber mechanism delivers food or other reward. In some cases, the mechanism delivers a punishment for incorrect or missing responses."

https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-a-skinner-box-2795875


"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


(Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

Post edited by Ancient_Exile on
bcbullyCryomatrixPanzerbeorne39
«134

Comments

  • AeanderAeander Member LegendaryPosts: 5,763
    Ironically, I've tried so many f2p WoW clones, that when I played the trial version of actual WoW, I just couldn't get past the "more of the same" feeling and decided it wasn't worth the sub price for me.
    KyleranAncient_ExilePanzerbeorne39
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,180
    There was a time when I was annoyed with all the WoW clones. Now I can't even get that. At least WoW clones are mmorpgs.
    iixviiiixSiris23NildenKyleran

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • DibdabsDibdabs Member RarePosts: 2,926
    The vast majority of games these days all give off a "played this sooooo many times before" vibe to me.  Understandable given how long I have been gaming of course.

    It's one of the reasons I get bored so fast nowadays.  Twenty minutes into Last Oasis (a game that seemed to look like a change of the norm) I started thinking "you know, I can see how the rest of the game is going to go after this point and the game is just going to be a rinse and repeat of the time I have played so far".  It was just more of the same old crap.  Gather resources to build a walker to gather more resources to gather more resources to build a better walker...  Well, you get the point.  Game shelved.
    Ancient_Exile
  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 10,149
    ESO is different. Some wow clone aspects, but much more depth and freedom in systems compared to any AAA since WoW imo
    Ancient_Exile
  • cameltosiscameltosis Member EpicPosts: 2,534
    For some reason, I'm struggling to respond to this one.


    I basically disagree with everything the OP said, but can't seem to articulate why.


    I think the main thing I'd say is that it comes down to personal preferences in what you want to get out of your MMO. For me, I'm all about combat, that's my number one priority, and every "WoW Clone" does it differently. On the surface they may look very similar, but when I get stuck in I can see clear differences and those differences make a huge difference to my enjoyment.

    Easiest example: the trinity

    I find the tank / healer / dps paradigm to be far too limiting, resulting in stagnant combat design. I want more roles than just the trinity - buffers, debuffers, CC, off-tanks etc. I find that this opens up way more tactical options, group setups etc which makes the game much more enjoyable for me.


    Similarly, I value depth in combat. What I mean by depth is that it must be difficult for me to decide what skill to use next - I must have many options, and the choice I make must have a significant impact.

    A game like LotRO (early years anyway) had massive depth - my captain had 25+ situational abilities that required constant decision making. Compare that to SWTOR, which had basically the same mechanics, except the skill design sucked. My jedi shadow had a long rotation (complex) but only about 3 situational abilities. This meant every. single. fucking. fight. was exactly the goddamn same: execute my rotation and if I get into trouble, pop one of a couple of situational skills.



    So, I feel that if you think that all WoW clones are basically the same, then all that means is that what you want out of the game just isn't part of the themepark design. If you dont care about what is included, then its always going to seem pretty samey and not engaging for you.

    And example of this from my own preferences is story.

    I hate story in computer games. I feel like games are a terrible medium for telling stories (but a great place for creating stories.....), and that the better the story, the worse the game.

    So, to me, all stories in all MMORPGs suck. I can write them all off easily and claim they're all the same, just as you are doing with all themeparks. However, I've spoken to many players who love stories in games, and so to them the differences in story telling between different themeparks are dramatic and really help separate the games in terms of quality. Games like Secret World or LotRO get huge praise from these players, because they love story they can spot the differences. To me, they all seem like shit stories.

    Its just different perspectives



    So, the best advice I can give is try to analyse exactly what it is you do want from an MMORPG. If all themeparks feel the same to you, and you aren't enjoying it, then clearly that isn't the design for you. It can be quite a fun exercise to do, too, and may well save you a lot of time and money. When I did this 7 years ago, I realised that I only had 4 minimum requirements:

    * Deep combat mechanics
    * Horizontal progression
    * Objective-based open world PvP
    * An IP that I like


    I don't really care whether the game is a themepark or a sandbox. I have found that it just doesn't change how much I enjoy the game. I get my fun from combat and playing with others, and I can find that in any mmo.


    So yeh, I'd be curious to know what it is you genuinely want.
    UngoodIselinDibdabsCryomatrix
  • alkarionlogalkarionlog Member EpicPosts: 3,343
    For some reason, I'm struggling to respond to this one.


    I basically disagree with everything the OP said, but can't seem to articulate why.


    I think the main thing I'd say is that it comes down to personal preferences in what you want to get out of your MMO. For me, I'm all about combat, that's my number one priority, and every "WoW Clone" does it differently. On the surface they may look very similar, but when I get stuck in I can see clear differences and those differences make a huge difference to my enjoyment.

    Easiest example: the trinity

    I find the tank / healer / dps paradigm to be far too limiting, resulting in stagnant combat design. I want more roles than just the trinity - buffers, debuffers, CC, off-tanks etc. I find that this opens up way more tactical options, group setups etc which makes the game much more enjoyable for me.


    Similarly, I value depth in combat. What I mean by depth is that it must be difficult for me to decide what skill to use next - I must have many options, and the choice I make must have a significant impact.

    A game like LotRO (early years anyway) had massive depth - my captain had 25+ situational abilities that required constant decision making. Compare that to SWTOR, which had basically the same mechanics, except the skill design sucked. My jedi shadow had a long rotation (complex) but only about 3 situational abilities. This meant every. single. fucking. fight. was exactly the goddamn same: execute my rotation and if I get into trouble, pop one of a couple of situational skills.



    So, I feel that if you think that all WoW clones are basically the same, then all that means is that what you want out of the game just isn't part of the themepark design. If you dont care about what is included, then its always going to seem pretty samey and not engaging for you.

    And example of this from my own preferences is story.

    I hate story in computer games. I feel like games are a terrible medium for telling stories (but a great place for creating stories.....), and that the better the story, the worse the game.

    So, to me, all stories in all MMORPGs suck. I can write them all off easily and claim they're all the same, just as you are doing with all themeparks. However, I've spoken to many players who love stories in games, and so to them the differences in story telling between different themeparks are dramatic and really help separate the games in terms of quality. Games like Secret World or LotRO get huge praise from these players, because they love story they can spot the differences. To me, they all seem like shit stories.

    Its just different perspectives



    So, the best advice I can give is try to analyse exactly what it is you do want from an MMORPG. If all themeparks feel the same to you, and you aren't enjoying it, then clearly that isn't the design for you. It can be quite a fun exercise to do, too, and may well save you a lot of time and money. When I did this 7 years ago, I realised that I only had 4 minimum requirements:

    * Deep combat mechanics
    * Horizontal progression
    * Objective-based open world PvP
    * An IP that I like


    I don't really care whether the game is a themepark or a sandbox. I have found that it just doesn't change how much I enjoy the game. I get my fun from combat and playing with others, and I can find that in any mmo.


    So yeh, I'd be curious to know what it is you genuinely want.


    because he said he took 100 hours to get to max lvl when actually it takes tops 30 hours and that is if you don't rush


    also you guys forget games today is not about fun and bringing people together is to make a quick buck and milk players with cassino squemes, hence why most games are clones of each other giving or taking features
    FOR HONOR, FOR FREEDOM.... and for some money.
  • tzervotzervo Member RarePosts: 324

    On the surface they may look very similar, but when I get stuck in I can see clear differences and those differences make a huge difference to my enjoyment. 
    ...
    So, I feel that if you think that all WoW clones are basically the same, then all that means is that what you want out of the game just isn't part of the themepark design.
    ...
    So, the best advice I can give is try to analyse exactly what it is you do want from an MMORPG. If all themeparks feel the same to you, and you aren't enjoying it, then clearly that isn't the design for you. It can be quite a fun exercise to do, too, and may well save you a lot of time and money. When I did this 7 years ago, I realised that I only had 4 minimum requirements:

    * Deep combat mechanics
    * Horizontal progression
    * Objective-based open world PvP
    * An IP that I like

    I don't really care whether the game is a themepark or a sandbox. I have found that it just doesn't change how much I enjoy the game. I get my fun from combat and playing with others, and I can find that in any mmo.  
    The combat is the single most important gameplay element in almost all MMOs.

    But it does not define the skeleton of the game. That's defined by its ruleset and progression elements. That's what gives an MMO its scope and keeps the player engaged for a longer time. And all themeparks are quite similar in this respect. The similarities are not superficial.

    Which is why gamers either stick to that design or reject it completely, regardless of the twist a particular game might give to it in terms of story, combat, graphics style or otherwise.
    Ancient_ExileUngood
  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    For some reason, I'm struggling to respond to this one.


    I basically disagree with everything the OP said, but can't seem to articulate why.


    I think the main thing I'd say is that it comes down to personal preferences in what you want to get out of your MMO. For me, I'm all about combat, that's my number one priority, and every "WoW Clone" does it differently. On the surface they may look very similar, but when I get stuck in I can see clear differences and those differences make a huge difference to my enjoyment.

    Easiest example: the trinity

    I find the tank / healer / dps paradigm to be far too limiting, resulting in stagnant combat design. I want more roles than just the trinity - buffers, debuffers, CC, off-tanks etc. I find that this opens up way more tactical options, group setups etc which makes the game much more enjoyable for me.


    Similarly, I value depth in combat. What I mean by depth is that it must be difficult for me to decide what skill to use next - I must have many options, and the choice I make must have a significant impact.

    A game like LotRO (early years anyway) had massive depth - my captain had 25+ situational abilities that required constant decision making. Compare that to SWTOR, which had basically the same mechanics, except the skill design sucked. My jedi shadow had a long rotation (complex) but only about 3 situational abilities. This meant every. single. fucking. fight. was exactly the goddamn same: execute my rotation and if I get into trouble, pop one of a couple of situational skills.



    So, I feel that if you think that all WoW clones are basically the same, then all that means is that what you want out of the game just isn't part of the themepark design. If you dont care about what is included, then its always going to seem pretty samey and not engaging for you.

    And example of this from my own preferences is story.

    I hate story in computer games. I feel like games are a terrible medium for telling stories (but a great place for creating stories.....), and that the better the story, the worse the game.

    So, to me, all stories in all MMORPGs suck. I can write them all off easily and claim they're all the same, just as you are doing with all themeparks. However, I've spoken to many players who love stories in games, and so to them the differences in story telling between different themeparks are dramatic and really help separate the games in terms of quality. Games like Secret World or LotRO get huge praise from these players, because they love story they can spot the differences. To me, they all seem like shit stories.

    Its just different perspectives



    So, the best advice I can give is try to analyse exactly what it is you do want from an MMORPG. If all themeparks feel the same to you, and you aren't enjoying it, then clearly that isn't the design for you. It can be quite a fun exercise to do, too, and may well save you a lot of time and money. When I did this 7 years ago, I realised that I only had 4 minimum requirements:

    * Deep combat mechanics
    * Horizontal progression
    * Objective-based open world PvP
    * An IP that I like


    I don't really care whether the game is a themepark or a sandbox. I have found that it just doesn't change how much I enjoy the game. I get my fun from combat and playing with others, and I can find that in any mmo.


    So yeh, I'd be curious to know what it is you genuinely want.

    Well, I had fun playing Runes of Magic in 2008.  But that was the first time I played a WoW Clone and the first time I got to max level in an MMORPG.  I was still a total noob and didn't really know any better.  Though the fact that the game had moderate Death Penalty (XP loss/debt) probably made it more challenging/difficult and interesting than other games I played later.  

    I thoroughly enjoyed playing Everquest 2 in 2014.  It was the second WoW-type game I played to max level.  From what I understand, it had become more like WoW over the years.  However, having played WoW to lvl 60 during late 2010-2011, I thought that EQ2 was much better.  Even though I could have played to lvl 70 in WoW for free (was given a free month to play through Burning Crusade in an email), I was so sick of the boring, repetitive quests that I declined to do so.  Anyway, I eventually leveled two characters (Paladin & Troubadour) to max level in EQ2, but then grew bored when I realized what End Game was really all about. 

    Played Neverwinter off and on from 2014-2019.  (Tried almost all of the most popular MMORPGs in the meantime, along with a many which weren't so popular.)  I suppose one good thing about Neverwinter, or one thing that added to its replayability, was that the classes were different enough so that the combat didn't feel so monotonous when switching between alts.

    Not that the classes in EQ2 weren't different, but the combat and leveling was much more fast-paced in Neverwinter.  Still, eventually, the End Game Grind destroyed my interest in continuing to play.  That and the fact that all I'm essentially doing with my characters is trying to incrementally increase their combat power.  So that I can do more difficult content.  So that I can incrementally increase their combat power.  So that I can do more difficult content.  Ad infinitum.

    So, what do I want from an MMORPG?

    More interesting opportunities to make important decisions based on a proper evaluation (in our individual opinions) of Risk vs Reward.  Being able to evaluate Risk vs Reward and make important choices based on that evaluation makes a game much more interesting IMHO.  Also, the more important choices a game offers me, choices which can significantly effect my character, other player characters, non-player characters, mobs, and (hopefully) the game world itself, the more interesting that game will be.  To me anyway. 

    Which is why I would prefer a AAA Faction-based OWPVP/PVE Non-Linear/Sandbox Medieval Fantasy MMORPG. 



    cameltosis
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    edited May 21

    because he said he took 100 hours to get to max lvl when actually it takes tops 30 hours and that is if you don't rush


    also you guys forget games today is not about fun and bringing people together is to make a quick buck and milk players with cassino squemes, hence why most games are clones of each other giving or taking features


    However, in some of the older games, such as EQ2, it could take easily take a person 100+ hours to get to max level.

    Sadly, it seems that you are correct.  Most of these MMORPGs are not designed to be fun for the long term.  They're only designed to be fun enough initially to hook a player in and get them to start spending money.


    Post edited by Ancient_Exile on
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    edited May 20
    tzervo said:

    The combat is the single most important gameplay element in almost all MMOs.

    But it does not define the skeleton of the game. That's defined by its ruleset and progression elements. That's what gives an MMO its scope and keeps the player engaged for a longer time. And all themeparks are quite similar in this respect. The similarities are not superficial.

    Which is why gamers either stick to that design or reject it completely, regardless of the twist a particular game might give to it in terms of story, combat, graphics style or otherwise.

    Combat is the single most important gameplay element in almost all MMOs because players will spend 90%+ of their time in combat.  Though an MMORPG doesn't necessarily need to be designed by that way.
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,346
    edited May 21
    If every person quit wow after they reach max level...  The game would be dead in 1 month. 

    Wow isn't dead in 1 month.  In fact it's been running for more than a decade.  And more sustainable than other mmorpg.

    So I don't know what the point of argument is...  Beside hearing constant whine about how you don't enjoy endgame in themepark mmorpg.


    Ungood
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,311
    WOW clones don't exist because Blizzard would sue the shit out of them if they did,

    Have games copied a lot of elements from successful games that preceded them? Of course. It happens every day in every gaming genre.

    The truly unique games with nothing noticeably copied from other games (if you copy things from obscure games not many will notice) are the rare unicorns.

    Calling theme parks with some things that resemble WOW a clone is just shallow and superficial dismissive gamer slang. LOTRO was called a WOW clone and so was ESO but if you actually play LOTRO, ESO and WOW you'd never be confused about which of the 3 you're playing.
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    edited May 21
    AAAMEOW said:
    If every person quit wow after they reach max level...  The game would be dead in 1 month. 

    Wow isn't dead in 1 month.  In fact it's been running for more than a decade.  And more sustainable than other mmorpg.

    So I don't know what the point of argument is...  Beside hearing constant whine about how you don't enjoy endgame in themepark mmorpg.


    When did I say that every player quit after they got to max level in WoW?

    Yes, there are a number of people who seem to be able to put up with repetitive grind.  I did put up with it for a while in Neverwinter, but I'm can longer put up with it.  There's a better way to design MMORPGs.
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    Iselin said:
    WOW clones don't exist because Blizzard would sue the shit out of them if they did,

    Have games copied a lot of elements from successful games that preceded them? Of course. It happens every day in every gaming genre.

    The truly unique games with nothing noticeably copied from other games (if you copy things from obscure games not many will notice) are the rare unicorns.

    Calling theme parks with some things that resemble WOW a clone is just shallow and superficial dismissive gamer slang. LOTRO was called a WOW clone and so was ESO but if you actually play LOTRO, ESO and WOW you'd never be confused about which of the 3 you're playing.
    Semantics.

    Okay, so there not exactly clones.  That's a bit of hyperbole.

    However, most AAA MMORPGs are Themeparks on Rails.  And I included all the most essential elements which these Themeparks on Rails contain.
    tzervo
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 7,577
    I made it to max level (well 70 at the time) in WoW, but by the time I did I was so burnt out on quests that I just couldnt do them anymore.....I tried a few games that followed the same roadmap as WoW (Rift, LoTRO, and a few others) but I just couldn't do it for any length of time...ALmsot every one of them I was done in elss than a month...That counts ESO, FFXIV, GW2, and all the other "great" MMOs that I keep reading about here.
    Ancient_Exile
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,311
    Iselin said:
    WOW clones don't exist because Blizzard would sue the shit out of them if they did,

    Have games copied a lot of elements from successful games that preceded them? Of course. It happens every day in every gaming genre.

    The truly unique games with nothing noticeably copied from other games (if you copy things from obscure games not many will notice) are the rare unicorns.

    Calling theme parks with some things that resemble WOW a clone is just shallow and superficial dismissive gamer slang. LOTRO was called a WOW clone and so was ESO but if you actually play LOTRO, ESO and WOW you'd never be confused about which of the 3 you're playing.
    Semantics.

    Okay, so there not exactly clones.  That's a bit of hyperbole.

    However, most AAA MMORPGs are Themeparks on Rails.  And I included all the most essential elements which these Themeparks on Rails contain.
    More than a bit of hyperbole.

    The three games I mentioned, WOW, LOTRO, and ESO use most if not all of the elements you included. Do they feel like you're playing the same game to you? They don't to me.
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    I made it to max level (well 70 at the time) in WoW, but by the time I did I was so burnt out on quests that I just couldnt do them anymore.....I tried a few games that followed the same roadmap as WoW (Rift, LoTRO, and a few others) but I just couldn't do it for any length of time...ALmsot every one of them I was done in elss than a month...That counts ESO, FFXIV, GW2, and all the other "great" MMOs that I keep reading about here.

    So, in your opinion, ESO doesn't really offer an experience that varies greatly from any other of the MMORPGs you've played?
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • phoenixfire2phoenixfire2 Member UncommonPosts: 143
    This seems to be a case of maybe the MMO genre just isn't your thing?  While I don't disagree with your premise that they all fundamentally offer the same experience, I still personally enjoy a lot of MMOs and look forward to future ones. 

    They all bring differences in their own way, be it story/lore, class variety, combat mechanics, npc interactions, social elements etc. that keep them different enough to make up for their "sameyness".
    Iselin
  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,589
    edited May 21
    You make it sound like operant condition is a bad thing. That is one of the primary method by which people learn.

    The basis of positive and negative feedback with reinforcement is the primary basis by which all learning is done
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    Iselin said:
    Iselin said:
    WOW clones don't exist because Blizzard would sue the shit out of them if they did,

    Have games copied a lot of elements from successful games that preceded them? Of course. It happens every day in every gaming genre.

    The truly unique games with nothing noticeably copied from other games (if you copy things from obscure games not many will notice) are the rare unicorns.

    Calling theme parks with some things that resemble WOW a clone is just shallow and superficial dismissive gamer slang. LOTRO was called a WOW clone and so was ESO but if you actually play LOTRO, ESO and WOW you'd never be confused about which of the 3 you're playing.
    Semantics.

    Okay, so there not exactly clones.  That's a bit of hyperbole.

    However, most AAA MMORPGs are Themeparks on Rails.  And I included all the most essential elements which these Themeparks on Rails contain.
    More than a bit of hyperbole.

    The three games I mentioned, WOW, LOTRO, and ESO use most if not all of the elements you included. Do they feel like you're playing the same game to you? They don't to me.

    I already mentioned that I haven't played ESO enough to form a strong personal opinion on it.  In my first post.

    As for Lotro, I tried it once, but didn't find it interesting enough to keep playing past lvl 20 or so.  Part of that may because I already know how the story ends. 
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,098
    Iselin said:
    WOW clones don't exist because Blizzard would sue the shit out of them if they did,

    Have games copied a lot of elements from successful games that preceded them? Of course. It happens every day in every gaming genre.

    The truly unique games with nothing noticeably copied from other games (if you copy things from obscure games not many will notice) are the rare unicorns.

    Calling theme parks with some things that resemble WOW a clone is just shallow and superficial dismissive gamer slang. LOTRO was called a WOW clone and so was ESO but if you actually play LOTRO, ESO and WOW you'd never be confused about which of the 3 you're playing.
    They don't have to be exactly the same.  If you played a side scroller game with a painter that grew after it hit a green pepper out of a floating box you might have a Mario clone. Sure you might spit fire instead of shoot fireballs after you eat jalapeno out of a box but does that really make it less of a clone?

    I am bored gamer at this point with all genre but MMORPG are the worst. I just can't tolerate doing another pointless task. No I don't want to deliver crap you have. No I don't want to kill shit and give you their bits. 20 hours of repeating this crap then end game on repeat of a few dungeons or raids. It's tired.
    Ancient_Exile
  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    This seems to be a case of maybe the MMO genre just isn't your thing?  While I don't disagree with your premise that they all fundamentally offer the same experience, I still personally enjoy a lot of MMOs and look forward to future ones. 

    They all bring differences in their own way, be it story/lore, class variety, combat mechanics, npc interactions, social elements etc. that keep them different enough to make up for their "sameyness".

    No.

    Isn't there, or can't there be, a large difference between an experience a player would have in Non-linear/Sandbox MMORPG as opposed to a Linear/Themepark MMORPG?
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


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  • phoenixfire2phoenixfire2 Member UncommonPosts: 143
    You make it sound like operant condition is a bad thing. That is one of the primary method by which people learn.

    The basis of positive and negative feedback with reinforcement is the primary basis by which all learning is done

    I think he's just trying to say that the games use tricks against you to keep you addicted.  Skinner box is typically used pejoratively when describing vidyas.  There's a lot of debate on the ethics of video games that use psychology as a tool to keep people playing or separate them from their money.
    Ancient_Exile
  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    edited May 21
    You make it sound like operant condition is a bad thing. That is one of the primary method by which people learn.

    The basis of positive and negative feedback with reinforcement is the primary basis by which all learning is done

    It can be bad if that knowledge of how people learn or react to stimuli is used to manipulate them.

    The rat completes the maze, the rat gets the cheese.

    The player character completes the quest, the player character gets the XP, money, and/or item.  The party completes the dungeon, the party gets the gear.

    Getting rewarded for doing something correctly isn't bad in itself.  But the thing, that's basically what most of these MMORPGs are all about.  And the dungeons have become far more simplistic than they were in the older games.  Most of them are not mazes or labyrinths.  Nor do most of them even alternate paths by which they can be navigated.

    Dungeons would also be far better if they weren't just all about combat.  Kill the mobs and bosses and get the treasure.  Why can't dungeons be designed so that characters/classes also have the opportunity to use non-combat skills?  Such as picking locks, casting light spells, etc.
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • phoenixfire2phoenixfire2 Member UncommonPosts: 143
    This seems to be a case of maybe the MMO genre just isn't your thing?  While I don't disagree with your premise that they all fundamentally offer the same experience, I still personally enjoy a lot of MMOs and look forward to future ones. 

    They all bring differences in their own way, be it story/lore, class variety, combat mechanics, npc interactions, social elements etc. that keep them different enough to make up for their "sameyness".

    No.

    Isn't there, or can't there be, a large difference between an experience a player would have in Non-linear/Sandbox MMORPG as opposed to a Linear/Themepark MMORPG?

    Yes in the ways I described.  The stories will be different.  The quests will be different.  The class you're playing will be different.  The combat will likely be one of a few things (action, tab target, turn based etc). 

    Fundamentally though, no they're not that different, they follow a formula which is: start weak/naked, perform heroic deeds, get stronger incrementally, collect gear, get stronger so you can get more gear to get stronger to get more gear.  You get the point. 

    Not many MMOs stray from this kind of formula of vertical progression.  GW2 employs horizontal progression (at endgame), so maybe you should try that one if the others aren't working out for you.  If you already tried it then, sorry, kinda back to maybe you just don't like MMOs in their current form?
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