This is my personal view small caveat before I start but I dislike PvP games not because of the PvP itself but the community it creates. Of course I'm not painting every player with the same brush but because of the nature and age I think of the gamer that indulges in the strong PvP they bring out the worst and perhaps it can be argued the best in people. It is the ugliness though I want to avoid the chat, the boasting, the anger the unpleasantness it engenders. It is something you cannot code or change in a game, the players, they will always be obnoxious.
I am not saying that PvE players are not obnoxious but because of the way the PvE games are structured you can avoid the obnoxious PvE player but the obnoxious PvP player will engage you even when you don't want to. In fact it will be a main motivation for them to engage you the fact that you wish to have nothing to do with them. PvE players tend to work together and in that situation you need to work mostly with people with common goals and generally a player you dislike will not try to join you in a common endeavour.
I also agree on the unfairness because I'm an old player so my reactions are also very slow. I try to avoid these PvP games but if they have systems I enjoy like Archeage and Black Desert Online I will play it and ignore the PvP in favour of the systems like trade and farming that I do like. Or games where they put the PvP in zones I don't have to go to like ESO and Aion, even Anarchy Online.
I have never found a PvP game where a gamer like me can be happy. The only ones will be where I can be pretty much left alone like Black Desert Online to farm, collect resources, unlock nodes, fish and explore. I had fun in the game but it was a pretty lonely existence, so in the end I left.
I doubt I can avoid PvP games but if I can avoid the PvP I will play them. My age may be a big contributing factor being over 60. I really have no stomach for PvP. I do however enjoy games where I can heal and keep people alive and in Warhammer I played the mage the one that could heal and enjoyed scenarios and in WoW I have also done BGs which I enjoyed tremendously. However those BGs take so much out of me that I am unable to do much all day because my hands hurt and I am tired from all the excess adrenaline that roared through my system during the confrontations. This is the main reason I avoid games that will not allow me to choose when I want to PvP. I cannot handle it. That is the fact of my own limitations.
What if there was a game where you could all of the stuff you could do in BDO, except that you were contributing and interacting with a larger community (within the same faction)? I'm not saying that you would be ABSOLUTELY safe from PVP, but you would be generally safe. Because, within your faction's territory, there would be NPC guards who frequently patrolled (both mounted and on foot, perhaps even aerial patrols - griffon or wyvern riders). And there would also be guarded towers, forts, and campsites you could run to if you needed to do so. Not to mention the other Player Characters around who belonged to your own faction.
Then, if you wanted to travel outside of your faction's territory, you could possibly join a merchant's caravan (led by a PC or NPC). Or you could ask some people in your faction to go along with you and protect you. Just like, in the real world, you probably wouldn't visit a foreign country by yourself.
EDIT: Oh, you wouldn't have to be an adventurer in order to do the non-combat activities if you didn't want to. You could potentially progress in the game without ever having to fight.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
What do you mean I don't care about purpose or outcome?
...you don't care about why games are designed the way they are, you don't care about buttload of people actually enjoying then, etc. You simply ignore any reality related to mmo games.
...and with the same way you don't care whether there will be any "result" taking you closer to a game you want to play.
You simply just unload your crap....expecting what?
This is my personal view small caveat before I start but I dislike PvP games not because of the PvP itself but the community it creates. Of course I'm not painting every player with the same brush but because of the nature and age I think of the gamer that indulges in the strong PvP they bring out the worst and perhaps it can be argued the best in people. It is the ugliness though I want to avoid the chat, the boasting, the anger the unpleasantness it engenders. It is something you cannot code or change in a game, the players, they will always be obnoxious.
I am not saying that PvE players are not obnoxious but because of the way the PvE games are structured you can avoid the obnoxious PvE player but the obnoxious PvP player will engage you even when you don't want to. In fact it will be a main motivation for them to engage you the fact that you wish to have nothing to do with them. PvE players tend to work together and in that situation you need to work mostly with people with common goals and generally a player you dislike will not try to join you in a common endeavour.
I also agree on the unfairness because I'm an old player so my reactions are also very slow. I try to avoid these PvP games but if they have systems I enjoy like Archeage and Black Desert Online I will play it and ignore the PvP in favour of the systems like trade and farming that I do like. Or games where they put the PvP in zones I don't have to go to like ESO and Aion, even Anarchy Online.
I have never found a PvP game where a gamer like me can be happy. The only ones will be where I can be pretty much left alone like Black Desert Online to farm, collect resources, unlock nodes, fish and explore. I had fun in the game but it was a pretty lonely existence, so in the end I left.
I doubt I can avoid PvP games but if I can avoid the PvP I will play them. My age may be a big contributing factor being over 60. I really have no stomach for PvP. I do however enjoy games where I can heal and keep people alive and in Warhammer I played the mage the one that could heal and enjoyed scenarios and in WoW I have also done BGs which I enjoyed tremendously. However those BGs take so much out of me that I am unable to do much all day because my hands hurt and I am tired from all the excess adrenaline that roared through my system during the confrontations. This is the main reason I avoid games that will not allow me to choose when I want to PvP. I cannot handle it. That is the fact of my own limitations.
It's funny but I had exactly the opposite experience playing ESO. The RvR there was very friendly, welcoming and inclusive and the game pay in Cyrofiil was all about working together,
The PvE in that game OTOH was not friendly at all, isolating and no one worked together even in the parts of the game where you think they would. PUGs were toxic as hell with payers endlessly queuing deliberately for the wrong role because the open spec system has no way of checking who really is a tank or a healer. Max level players together in groups with new players YOLOing their way through dungeons not caring how anyone else wanted to play it because they could get away with it. All of this in total silence other than the occasional fight to harass someone who wasn't up to their elite standards,
PVP in games that are all about quick scenarios with scoreboards or open ganking simulators, I would agree with your take but large group strategic and tactical RvR is a whole different type of PvP... which is why I only play that type of PvP in MMOs.
IDK where you formed your opinions of typical PVPers and typical PvErs but it doesn't square with my experience of PvP in RvR games.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
What do you mean I don't care about purpose or outcome?
...you don't care about why games are designed the way they are, you don't care about buttload of people actually enjoying then, etc. You simply ignore any reality related to mmo games.
...and with the same way you don't care whether there will be any "result" taking you closer to a gane you want to play.
You simply just unload your crap....expecting what?
What?
1. I don't care about why are games are designed the way they are?
2. I don't care that other people may enjoy those games?
3. I simply ignore any reality related to MMO games?
4. I don't care if there will be any result taking me closer to the game I want to play?
How do you get all that from my posts? I'm sort of perplexed by your statements. But I suppose I'll try to address them a bit anyway.
1. Seems like games are generally designed the way they are in order to attract players and make money. Though some may be labors of love designed by artists who love games, that may or may not be more rare these days. I think it's probably more rare than not. (Though there are most likely people who love games involved in the creation of them, they are usually not the ones making the most important decisions.)
2. I think a lot of people continue to play certain MMORPGs because they can't find anything better. Or they've never heard of anything better. I convinced myself I was enjoying a certain game at times, even though I definitely wasn't having as much fun as I could have been having or wanted to be having. Tried to suggest ways of improving the game on the forum quite a bit, but most of my ideas were not used. Though it seems like a couple were. (But not the best ones, IMO.)
3. Huh? Which reality am I ignoring? Please be more specific.
4. Why would I not care about "any result taking me closer to the game I want to play". Of course I care. Otherwise, I would just keep my ideas to myself.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
This is my personal view small caveat before I start but I dislike PvP games not because of the PvP itself but the community it creates. Of course I'm not painting every player with the same brush but because of the nature and age I think of the gamer that indulges in the strong PvP they bring out the worst and perhaps it can be argued the best in people. It is the ugliness though I want to avoid the chat, the boasting, the anger the unpleasantness it engenders. It is something you cannot code or change in a game, the players, they will always be obnoxious.
I am not saying that PvE players are not obnoxious but because of the way the PvE games are structured you can avoid the obnoxious PvE player but the obnoxious PvP player will engage you even when you don't want to. In fact it will be a main motivation for them to engage you the fact that you wish to have nothing to do with them. PvE players tend to work together and in that situation you need to work mostly with people with common goals and generally a player you dislike will not try to join you in a common endeavour.
I also agree on the unfairness because I'm an old player so my reactions are also very slow. I try to avoid these PvP games but if they have systems I enjoy like Archeage and Black Desert Online I will play it and ignore the PvP in favour of the systems like trade and farming that I do like. Or games where they put the PvP in zones I don't have to go to like ESO and Aion, even Anarchy Online.
I have never found a PvP game where a gamer like me can be happy. The only ones will be where I can be pretty much left alone like Black Desert Online to farm, collect resources, unlock nodes, fish and explore. I had fun in the game but it was a pretty lonely existence, so in the end I left.
I doubt I can avoid PvP games but if I can avoid the PvP I will play them. My age may be a big contributing factor being over 60. I really have no stomach for PvP. I do however enjoy games where I can heal and keep people alive and in Warhammer I played the mage the one that could heal and enjoyed scenarios and in WoW I have also done BGs which I enjoyed tremendously. However those BGs take so much out of me that I am unable to do much all day because my hands hurt and I am tired from all the excess adrenaline that roared through my system during the confrontations. This is the main reason I avoid games that will not allow me to choose when I want to PvP. I cannot handle it. That is the fact of my own limitations.
It's funny but I had exactly the opposite experience playing ESO. The RvR there was very friendly, welcoming and inclusive and the game pay in Cyrofiil was all about working together,
The PvE in that game OTOH was not friendly at all, isolating and no one worked together even in the parts of the game where you think they would. PUGs were toxic as hell with payers endlessly queuing deliberately for the wrong role because the open spec system has no way of checking who really is a tank or a healer. Max level players together in groups with new players YOLOing their way through dungeons not caring how anyone else wanted to play it because they could get away with it. All of this in total silence other than the occasional fight to harass someone who wasn't up to their elite standards,
PVP in games that are all about quick scenarios with scoreboards or open ganking simulators, I would agree with your take but large group strategic and tactical RvR is a whole different type of PvP... which is why I only play that type of PvP in MMOs.
IDK where you formed your opinions of typical PVPers and typical PvErs but it doesn't square with my experience of PvP in RvR games.
You're right about ESO I do recall that. I used it as an example for the separation of the PvP areas not about the actual PvE in fact it drove me away in the end the groups in that game.
I have no good organising skills or the ability to strategize in large PvP games. I am a soldier I go and stand where you ask me to and those kind of games where I just do a job for a guild will tire me out as I am not actually enjoying the planning. I am not able to play large scenarios. I prefer small ones like the BGs in WoW. Capture the flag thing. I actually loved League of Legends but the community was unimaginably toxic and the messages you get my god they were vile. I recall one day game after game it was bad as I went higher up.
Same reason I cannot play 4X games I just cannot see the big picture.
What if there was a game where you could all of the stuff you could do in BDO, except that you were contributing and interacting with a larger community (within the same faction)? I'm not saying that you would be ABSOLUTELY safe from PVP, but you would be generally safe. Because, within your faction's territory, there would be NPC guards who frequently patrolled (both mounted and on foot, perhaps even aerial patrols - griffon or wyvern riders). And there would also be guarded towers, forts, and campsites you could run to if you needed to do so. Not to mention the other Player Characters around who belonged to your own faction.
Then, if you wanted to travel outside of your faction's territory, you could possibly join a merchant's caravan (led by a PC or NPC). Or you could ask some people in your faction to go along with you and protect you. Just like, in the real world, you probably wouldn't visit a foreign country by yourself.
EDIT: Oh, you wouldn't have to be an adventurer in order to do the non-combat activities if you didn't want to. You could potentially progress in the game without ever having to fight.
No I want freedom and your game I won't have it. I have to go with other people and I cannot roam on my own. I might play it but not for long. First time I get hunted and killed I will leave.
What if there was a game where you could all of the stuff you could do in BDO, except that you were contributing and interacting with a larger community (within the same faction)? I'm not saying that you would be ABSOLUTELY safe from PVP, but you would be generally safe. Because, within your faction's territory, there would be NPC guards who frequently patrolled (both mounted and on foot, perhaps even aerial patrols - griffon or wyvern riders). And there would also be guarded towers, forts, and campsites you could run to if you needed to do so. Not to mention the other Player Characters around who belonged to your own faction.
Then, if you wanted to travel outside of your faction's territory, you could possibly join a merchant's caravan (led by a PC or NPC). Or you could ask some people in your faction to go along with you and protect you. Just like, in the real world, you probably wouldn't visit a foreign country by yourself.
EDIT: Oh, you wouldn't have to be an adventurer in order to do the non-combat activities if you didn't want to. You could potentially progress in the game without ever having to fight.
No I want freedom and your game I won't have it. I have to go with other people and I cannot roam on my own. I might play it but not for long. First time I get hunted and killed I will leave.
Okay, no worries. Just thought I'd ask. I know that kind of game wouldn't be for everyone.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
How about no. I personally think all these ideas would make for an absolutely corking MMORPG. The problem is not the features themselves, but the sheer amount of time, man power, and monetary resources it would take to spin them all into a workable MMORPG. Since big money figured out they could make successful online games that aren't MMORPGs in a fraction of the time, with a fraction of resources, not to mention they could get a very fast return on monetary investment, MMORPGs have become gaming industry poison.
That's very discouraging. So you're saying we should give up all hope for a great MMORPG to ever be made and just play single player games instead?
I gave up hope many years ago and have accepted that the era of great MMORPGs has long since past (ended around 2004 or so) and is never coming back.
What I have found is its possible to enjoy some newer online multiplayer games even if they don't meet all of the design standards I once held dear.
In fact, I'm now having a better time in FO76 than I have had with any other MMORPG outside of EVE in the past 15 years.
Yesterday after the roadmap for the year was revealed looks like I might not be playing much else for quite a while, and I'm fine with this idea.
I even had a good six month run with POE and I don't really like ARPGs.
I've learned over the years it's better to "find my fun" from the features presented by available games and not invest too much energy in dreaming what likely will never be.
As Harry Chapin would have said, 'you are supposed to dream when you are young.'
Cheers, and as said in the rooms, keep coming back.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
How about someone go through the ideas I presented in this thread step-by-step and explain exactly how and why they cannot work in an MMORPG?
Any takers? Form an orderly queue and stop pushing at the back!!
I already tried to do this once, and he didn't take it well.
Given, I mean I came across like TrembleBones, from GW2, where says "No one is arguing the need for a plan, yours is just stupid and won't work"
Truly an underrated character in that game, as I found her hilarious!
You're so full of it.
As you all can so clearly see, he didn't take it well.
anyway, how goes UO ?
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Story based MMOs never work. Look at SWTOR. Was doomed to ba a failure since most MMO players don't care about story, they care about gameplay. Gameplay should go alongside the story like WoW does, instead of the story being the gameplay itself (like SWTOR and Red Dead Redemption 2)
Story based MMOs never work. Look at SWTOR. Was doomed to ba a failure since most MMO players don't care about story, they care about gameplay. Gameplay should go alongside the story like WoW does, instead of the story being the gameplay itself (like SWTOR and Red Dead Redemption 2)
I agree. Players should make their own stories by their choices and actions.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
Story based MMOs never work. Look at SWTOR. Was doomed to ba a failure since most MMO players don't care about story, they care about gameplay. Gameplay should go alongside the story like WoW does, instead of the story being the gameplay itself (like SWTOR and Red Dead Redemption 2)
Most people praise SWTOR for its story. In fact it is its strongest feature. That is not the reason it did not find traction. You're mistaken about it.
Story based MMOs never work. Look at SWTOR. Was doomed to ba a failure since most MMO players don't care about story, they care about gameplay. Gameplay should go alongside the story like WoW does, instead of the story being the gameplay itself (like SWTOR and Red Dead Redemption 2)
Most people praise SWTOR for its story. In fact it is its strongest feature. That is not the reason it did not find traction. You're mistaken about it.
I don't think that was his point. He argued that without good gameplay, story alone cannot salvage a game or make it popular and it should not be the focus in terms of development effort. First sentence might throw the readers off though.
I think the reason SWTOR didn't succeed was because of the instances and the fact that the large number of people wishing to play the game was interested in PVP between the Sith and Jedi forces.
Gameplay as far as the classes went was good in my opinion. I enjoyed the game a lot.
For a game that is a failure it is still making money. That does not mean you have to like it though.
Story based MMOs never work. Look at SWTOR. Was doomed to ba a failure since most MMO players don't care about story, they care about gameplay. Gameplay should go alongside the story like WoW does, instead of the story being the gameplay itself (like SWTOR and Red Dead Redemption 2)
Most people praise SWTOR for its story. In fact it is its strongest feature. That is not the reason it did not find traction. You're mistaken about it.
That's incorrect.
Most people praise SWTOR for the main class stories. Which is like 0.01% of the game.
The rest of the stories seem to be disliked by most, given that the patches that allowed players to skip everything except the class stories were the most popular in the games history!
Plus, its only the people who stuck around that praise the main story lines. The overwhelming majority of players quit before completing the class stories, retention in that game is terrible and has been from day one. It's just that the small niche that stuck around, stayed for the story.
Story based MMOs never work. Look at SWTOR. Was doomed to ba a failure since most MMO players don't care about story, they care about gameplay. Gameplay should go alongside the story like WoW does, instead of the story being the gameplay itself (like SWTOR and Red Dead Redemption 2)
Most people praise SWTOR for its story. In fact it is its strongest feature. That is not the reason it did not find traction. You're mistaken about it.
That's incorrect.
Most people praise SWTOR for the main class stories. Which is like 0.01% of the game.
The rest of the stories seem to be disliked by most, given that the patches that allowed players to skip everything except the class stories were the most popular in the games history!
Plus, its only the people who stuck around that praise the main story lines. The overwhelming majority of players quit before completing the class stories, retention in that game is terrible and has been from day one. It's just that the small niche that stuck around, stayed for the story.
Plus, it's a Star Wars MMORPG. And Star Wars is one of the most popular and beloved franchises in history.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
Story based MMOs never work. Look at SWTOR. Was doomed to ba a failure since most MMO players don't care about story, they care about gameplay. Gameplay should go alongside the story like WoW does, instead of the story being the gameplay itself (like SWTOR and Red Dead Redemption 2)
Most people praise SWTOR for its story. In fact it is its strongest feature. That is not the reason it did not find traction. You're mistaken about it.
That's incorrect.
Most people praise SWTOR for the main class stories. Which is like 0.01% of the game.
The rest of the stories seem to be disliked by most, given that the patches that allowed players to skip everything except the class stories were the most popular in the games history!
Plus, its only the people who stuck around that praise the main story lines. The overwhelming majority of players quit before completing the class stories, retention in that game is terrible and has been from day one. It's just that the small niche that stuck around, stayed for the story.
This is a good point, you can't really have just one good mechanic, I mean I have played some really bad games that had some really cool features, but it was buried into whole rest of the game that I could not stand.
In fact, to be honest, I think every game I have played has had at least one redeeming feature of mechanic, that was at the very least enjoyable.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Comments
...and with the same way you don't care whether there will be any "result" taking you closer to a game you want to play.
You simply just unload your crap....expecting what?
note: the question is rhetorical only...
The PvE in that game OTOH was not friendly at all, isolating and no one worked together even in the parts of the game where you think they would. PUGs were toxic as hell with payers endlessly queuing deliberately for the wrong role because the open spec system has no way of checking who really is a tank or a healer. Max level players together in groups with new players YOLOing their way through dungeons not caring how anyone else wanted to play it because they could get away with it. All of this in total silence other than the occasional fight to harass someone who wasn't up to their elite standards,
PVP in games that are all about quick scenarios with scoreboards or open ganking simulators, I would agree with your take but large group strategic and tactical RvR is a whole different type of PvP... which is why I only play that type of PvP in MMOs.
IDK where you formed your opinions of typical PVPers and typical PvErs but it doesn't square with my experience of PvP in RvR games.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I have no good organising skills or the ability to strategize in large PvP games. I am a soldier I go and stand where you ask me to and those kind of games where I just do a job for a guild will tire me out as I am not actually enjoying the planning. I am not able to play large scenarios. I prefer small ones like the BGs in WoW. Capture the flag thing. I actually loved League of Legends but the community was unimaginably toxic and the messages you get my god they were vile. I recall one day game after game it was bad as I went higher up.
Same reason I cannot play 4X games I just cannot see the big picture.
Ancient_Exile said:
No I want freedom and your game I won't have it. I have to go with other people and I cannot roam on my own. I might play it but not for long. First time I get hunted and killed I will leave.
Okay, no worries. Just thought I'd ask. I know that kind of game wouldn't be for everyone.
What I have found is its possible to enjoy some newer online multiplayer games even if they don't meet all of the design standards I once held dear.
In fact, I'm now having a better time in FO76 than I have had with any other MMORPG outside of EVE in the past 15 years.
Yesterday after the roadmap for the year was revealed looks like I might not be playing much else for quite a while, and I'm fine with this idea.
I even had a good six month run with POE and I don't really like ARPGs.
I've learned over the years it's better to "find my fun" from the features presented by available games and not invest too much energy in dreaming what likely will never be.
As Harry Chapin would have said, 'you are supposed to dream when you are young.'
Cheers, and as said in the rooms, keep coming back.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
anyway, how goes UO ?
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
I agree. Players should make their own stories by their choices and actions.
Gameplay as far as the classes went was good in my opinion. I enjoyed the game a lot.
For a game that is a failure it is still making money. That does not mean you have to like it though.
Plus, it's a Star Wars MMORPG. And Star Wars is one of the most popular and beloved franchises in history.
In fact, to be honest, I think every game I have played has had at least one redeeming feature of mechanic, that was at the very least enjoyable.