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Affect the World! [MMORPG vs SPRPG]

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  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    Ungood said:
    tzervo said:
    Ungood said:

    And get this, even the open zones change as as you do some quests. So looking at that kind of system, maybe if we as players in an instance based MMO, could affect OUR game, but not exactly the WHOLE game.

    ...

    When you go back to the Open Instance, the Son is on the Throne, but Thanks you for saving his father.

    For another player who did not save the King they get a different flavor text.

    The thing here, is that as far as the world story goes, the King was going to step down anyway, either by retiring and letting his son take over, or by being killed. The player gets to have a minor role in the situation, and gets noted for what they did (or did not) do.

    ...
    and Since it's all instance, it does not impose upon anyone else.
    I kept what I thought were the salient points in your example.

    This is very similar to how GW2 treated its personal story and how many themeparks with phasing treat small (sometimes temporary) variations in the story. It is convenient in that there is no way for the players to derail the world and affect other players. But it is very limited. If you just get a different flavor of text, or you saved the king but still get his son you changed nothing in the world compared to the next Joe beside you - that's the most simplistic story trickery that a game can employ (and many do already). If you want to get more ambitious with branches and instancing you just managed to:

    1) split your playerbase
    2) get the devs to put out up to 2^n more content (assuming binary choices in the story and all possible combinations) for the same bits of your story

    To me this sounds like existing themepark design 101 and is not interesting at all. For me, "affecting the world" in any meaningful way includes "affecting other people".
    If you just wanted to Affect other people, Nothing is stopping you from making an open Pug, inviting newbs into your groups, leading raids, giving build advice, or even just giving new players some gear to help them out.

    Many people in DDO have become famous on their own servers for doing that.

    Or did you just want to be an asshole and make their game less fun? 

    Then nothing is stopping you from putting up an Open Pug and making a huge douche of yourself belittling other people, who knows you might even get every Trolls dream of getting some of them to quit.

    So, not sure what it is you are really looking for to be honest.

    With that said.

    Give me one advantage to letting players "Derail" the world?

    I mean, if the devs wanted to allow players to as you said derail the game, there is no point in putting rails to start with, they are far, far, better off just making one big open world sandbox game of do whatever.  

    Have you noticed.. those games of "Do whatever" are somehow not popular.. I wonder why?

    I don't think players can actually Derail a game that has no rails in the first place.
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,242
    tzervo said:
    You mean like NPC/MOB Guardians, deities, and Factional rules? 

    Edit to add...
    This stuff really needs to be discussed so that effectiveness can be found. 
    Too many games have made claims and then not implemented a plan that works (prison, for example). 
    Well, if the devs intend to prevent something, this has to be done on the code level or at least on the EULA level. If you consider that a player can break your game through their actions, then you need to prevent these actions, because they will. The devs should always put hard stops in whatever they think is breaking or disruptive, that should be part of their design and their responsibility.

    Putting measures to make a player action harder (i.e. through karma, prisons etc), is just a balancing act on the risk-vs-reward scale, it is not prevention in any way.
    The things I mentioned is on the code level. 
    Guardians that spawn against enemy Factions, and increase spawn when overwhelmed to account for masses in an invasion. 
    Deities that react to certain conditions. 
    Factions rules to add controls that, when broken, cause a reaction to said Player Characters. 

    Add in a Justice system for INTRA-Faction rule breaking such as PKing, theft, whatever else. 

    So I'm not sure what you mean. This is code that's automatic and in exchange for invisible walls. 

    Ancient_ExileGdemami

    Once upon a time....

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,365
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:

    Design systems to keep the Virtual Vandals in line.  Just have to be smarter than the average Scare Bear.
    You vastly underestimate the level of depraved fuckery people will aspire to.

    And currently a lot of AAA MMO's already do design in systems to keep the "Virtual Vandals" in line, they simply don't let anyone truly screw up their game. 

    How do you know that I "vastly underestimate the level of "depraved ****ery" to which people will aspire?
    By the nature of every single idea you have put out so far.

    Whatever, dude.

    Dungeons & Dragons Online is calling.  It misses you dearly.  Please go play with it. 
    LOL, I am playing it, I just finished TRing.. Life 11, rolling a Rogue this life.

    Now as opposed to telling other people what do to, Why don't you go play a few other Open World PvP games with your time and catch a clue.

    Great.  I'm so glad you're enjoying playing DDO for the 11th time.

    Now, you keep telling us that we can't make a game the way we want to make it.  Or that a game like the one we want to be made will never work or be successful.  And nothing we write will convince you otherwise.  Because, honestly, I think you're something of a Zealot on this matter.  Anyway, you are constantly trying to tell us what to think.  Or that what we think is wrong.  Is telling someone what to think better or worse or the same as telling them what to do?
    I've played OW FFA PvP Online RPG's, since the 80's. I've watched and lived through Online Multiplayer Games evolve for over the past three decades. Some were better than others.

    But, Let me ask you a question. How many have you really gotten invested into? How many have you played? And why are you not currently playing any of the many various other Open World PvP MMO's?

    Don't tell me.. let me guess.. there was always some reason, they all got something wrong with this perfect formula you have imagined how a game should be.. right?

    Well.. There is your answer. 

    Do you really think your ideas will solve the Lament Configuration that stands before you, when no one else could figure it out?
    bcbully
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    Ungood said:

    I've played OW FFA PvP Online RPG's, since the 80's. I've watched and lived through Online Multiplayer Games evolve for over the past three decades. Some were better than others.

    But, Let me ask you a question. How many have you really gotten invested into? How many have you played? And why are you not currently playing any of the many various other Open World PvP MMO's?

    Don't tell me.. let me guess.. there was always some reason, they all got something wrong with this perfect formula you have imagined how a game should be.. right?

    Well.. There is your answer. 

    Do you really think your ideas will solve the Lament Configuration that stands before you, when no one else could figure it out?
    A Faction-Based OWPVP/PVE Sandbox MMORPG does not necessarily = FFA.

    bcbully
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,365
    Ungood said:

    I've played OW FFA PvP Online RPG's, since the 80's. I've watched and lived through Online Multiplayer Games evolve for over the past three decades. Some were better than others.

    But, Let me ask you a question. How many have you really gotten invested into? How many have you played? And why are you not currently playing any of the many various other Open World PvP MMO's?

    Don't tell me.. let me guess.. there was always some reason, they all got something wrong with this perfect formula you have imagined how a game should be.. right?

    Well.. There is your answer. 

    Do you really think your ideas will solve the Lament Configuration that stands before you, when no one else could figure it out?
    A Faction-Based OWPVP/PVE Sandbox MMORPG does not necessarily = FFA.

    Alright.. so... Why are you not playing any of the various faction based PvP MMO's then?

    bcbully
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    edited May 12
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:

    I've played OW FFA PvP Online RPG's, since the 80's. I've watched and lived through Online Multiplayer Games evolve for over the past three decades. Some were better than others.

    But, Let me ask you a question. How many have you really gotten invested into? How many have you played? And why are you not currently playing any of the many various other Open World PvP MMO's?

    Don't tell me.. let me guess.. there was always some reason, they all got something wrong with this perfect formula you have imagined how a game should be.. right?

    Well.. There is your answer. 

    Do you really think your ideas will solve the Lament Configuration that stands before you, when no one else could figure it out?
    A Faction-Based OWPVP/PVE Sandbox MMORPG does not necessarily = FFA.

    Alright.. so... Why are you not playing any of the various faction based PvP MMO's then?


    (Took me some time to find older posts of mine that I wanted to quote.) 


    As I've mentioned or hinted at in numerous posts in the past, I do not like...

    "...unimaginative PVP games that safely stay within the Skinner Box Final Fantasy/Dragon Warrior/Everquest/World of Warcraft design and mentality.  Even most or the vast majority of Sandbox MMORPGs usually retain the out of control vertical Combat Power progression plus the dependency on gear to increase player character Combat Power."


    Here's what I think will make for a far better PVP MMORPG...

    3) Vertical progression must be limited (& more realistic).  Most of the progression (skill-wise) would be horizontal [unlocking more options -ed].  Atrophy and regression should also be a factor.  Just as in real life, if an attribute, skill, ability, or talent is not used much, its strength can decrease over time.  

    4) Gear bonuses must be limited.  There must be a definite ceiling on how much gear, equipment, and items can increase the power of a character.  Skills, abilities, and talents (plus the skill of the player) should be just as important or probably more important than gear."


    Why the above is important (perhaps essential)...


    "However, what I have seen in the vast majority of MMORPGs that have OWPVP, or even just PVP, is that the competition is really more of a Race.  Who can get to higher or max level the fastest?  Who can acquire BIS gear before other players?  Because Character Level and Gear Level usually matter more than skill.  The most skilled players might not have a chance if they aren't high enough level or don't have good enough gear.  No matter how well they play.  Then throw in P2W Cash Shops, allow Whales to pay to crush other players, and PVP gets really screwed up."


    Again...

    "No huge power gaps.  Limited/realistic vertical progression.  Horizontal progression that unlocks new options.  Limited/realistic advantages gained by gear/equipment and items.  Magic and Divine/Infernal power would also have their limits.

    Most of the progression would be focused on gaining social, economic, political, or military ranks within a chosen faction.  Reputation/Renown/Infamy/Influence would be very important factors.  Players would also have the ability to hire & acquire NPC hirelings and subordinates."




    Post edited by Ancient_Exile on
    Gdemami
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,365
    Eh take your time.. Just logged into DDO.
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    Ungood said:
    Eh take your time.. Just logged into DDO.

    In reference to my post above, are the powers/abilities to defeat people physically, kill people, loot/steal/win things, buy and sell things, travel, gather materials, and craft items the only powers/abilities that matter in the real world?
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 1,931
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:

    I've played OW FFA PvP Online RPG's, since the 80's. I've watched and lived through Online Multiplayer Games evolve for over the past three decades. Some were better than others.

    But, Let me ask you a question. How many have you really gotten invested into? How many have you played? And why are you not currently playing any of the many various other Open World PvP MMO's?

    Don't tell me.. let me guess.. there was always some reason, they all got something wrong with this perfect formula you have imagined how a game should be.. right?

    Well.. There is your answer. 

    Do you really think your ideas will solve the Lament Configuration that stands before you, when no one else could figure it out?
    A Faction-Based OWPVP/PVE Sandbox MMORPG does not necessarily = FFA.

    Alright.. so... Why are you not playing any of the various faction based PvP MMO's then?

    For the same reason I don't play the various PVE games. I've either played them to death or they're not what I actually want.


    Any further questions?
    Ancient_Exilebcbully
    "Wake up, It's RNG, there is no such thing as 'rare'"
    - Ungood
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,242
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:

    I've played OW FFA PvP Online RPG's, since the 80's. I've watched and lived through Online Multiplayer Games evolve for over the past three decades. Some were better than others.

    But, Let me ask you a question. How many have you really gotten invested into? How many have you played? And why are you not currently playing any of the many various other Open World PvP MMO's?

    Don't tell me.. let me guess.. there was always some reason, they all got something wrong with this perfect formula you have imagined how a game should be.. right?

    Well.. There is your answer. 

    Do you really think your ideas will solve the Lament Configuration that stands before you, when no one else could figure it out?
    A Faction-Based OWPVP/PVE Sandbox MMORPG does not necessarily = FFA.

    Alright.. so... Why are you not playing any of the various faction based PvP MMO's then?


    (Took me some time to find older posts of mine that I wanted to quote.) 


    As I've mentioned or hinted at in numerous posts in the past, I do not like...

    "...unimaginative PVP games that safely stay within the Skinner Box Final Fantasy/Dragon Warrior/Everquest/World of Warcraft design and mentality.  Even most or the vast majority of Sandbox MMORPGs usually retain the out of control vertical Combat Power progression plus the dependency on gear to increase player character Combat Power."


    Here's what I think will make for a far better PVP MMORPG...

    3) Vertical progression must be limited (& more realistic).  Most of the progression (skill-wise) would be horizontal [unlocking more options -ed].  Atrophy and regression should also be a factor.  Just as in real life, if an attribute, skill, ability, or talent is not used much, its strength can decrease over time.  

    4) Gear bonuses must be limited.  There must be a definite ceiling on how much gear, equipment, and items can increase the power of a character.  Skills, abilities, and talents (plus the skill of the player) should be just as important or probably more important than gear."


    Why the above is important (perhaps essential)...


    "However, what I have seen in the vast majority of MMORPGs that have OWPVP, or even just PVP, is that the competition is really more of a Race.  Who can get to higher or max level the fastest?  Who can acquire BIS gear before other players?  Because Character Level and Gear Level usually matter more than skill.  The most skilled players might not have a chance if they aren't high enough level or don't have good enough gear.  No matter how well they play.  Then throw in P2W Cash Shops, allow Whales to pay to crush other players, and PVP gets really screwed up."


    Again...

    "No huge power gaps.  Limited/realistic vertical progression.  Horizontal progression that unlocks new options.  Limited/realistic advantages gained by gear/equipment and items.  Magic and Divine/Infernal power would also have their limits.

    Most of the progression would be focused on gaining social, economic, political, or military ranks within a chosen faction.  Reputation/Renown/Infamy/Influence would be very important factors.  Players would also have the ability to hire & acquire NPC hirelings and subordinates."

    I believe you are right about all of this. 

    However, I have to admit that I want a game that's inviting to PvEers. Not hardcore PvEers, but your average player that doesn't want to be a target by other players very often. 
    If you don't have a good number of those types, I think a game will be lacking socially and eventually (sooner rather than later) fall into a purely PvP game. That's where it starts to die. None of this other stuff matters. It's part of play, but as a part of the PvP world. 

    To have these PvEers, or maybe it's better to call them non-PvPers, and keep them, they have to be able to play plenty of the game world without the constant attacks that PvPers will impose on them. 

    All of the things you and I have mentioned have the potential to make that happen, while still having the threat, minimum as it may be. I think that would be the ideal game world. 
    But you could also fail at doing it "strongly enough." 
    That's what gamers will be looking at if you start making such a game. 
    Ancient_ExileGdemami

    Once upon a time....

  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    edited May 12
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:

    I've played OW FFA PvP Online RPG's, since the 80's. I've watched and lived through Online Multiplayer Games evolve for over the past three decades. Some were better than others.

    But, Let me ask you a question. How many have you really gotten invested into? How many have you played? And why are you not currently playing any of the many various other Open World PvP MMO's?

    Don't tell me.. let me guess.. there was always some reason, they all got something wrong with this perfect formula you have imagined how a game should be.. right?

    Well.. There is your answer. 

    Do you really think your ideas will solve the Lament Configuration that stands before you, when no one else could figure it out?
    A Faction-Based OWPVP/PVE Sandbox MMORPG does not necessarily = FFA.

    Alright.. so... Why are you not playing any of the various faction based PvP MMO's then?


    (Took me some time to find older posts of mine that I wanted to quote.) 


    As I've mentioned or hinted at in numerous posts in the past, I do not like...

    "...unimaginative PVP games that safely stay within the Skinner Box Final Fantasy/Dragon Warrior/Everquest/World of Warcraft design and mentality.  Even most or the vast majority of Sandbox MMORPGs usually retain the out of control vertical Combat Power progression plus the dependency on gear to increase player character Combat Power."


    Here's what I think will make for a far better PVP MMORPG...

    3) Vertical progression must be limited (& more realistic).  Most of the progression (skill-wise) would be horizontal [unlocking more options -ed].  Atrophy and regression should also be a factor.  Just as in real life, if an attribute, skill, ability, or talent is not used much, its strength can decrease over time.  

    4) Gear bonuses must be limited.  There must be a definite ceiling on how much gear, equipment, and items can increase the power of a character.  Skills, abilities, and talents (plus the skill of the player) should be just as important or probably more important than gear."


    Why the above is important (perhaps essential)...


    "However, what I have seen in the vast majority of MMORPGs that have OWPVP, or even just PVP, is that the competition is really more of a Race.  Who can get to higher or max level the fastest?  Who can acquire BIS gear before other players?  Because Character Level and Gear Level usually matter more than skill.  The most skilled players might not have a chance if they aren't high enough level or don't have good enough gear.  No matter how well they play.  Then throw in P2W Cash Shops, allow Whales to pay to crush other players, and PVP gets really screwed up."


    Again...

    "No huge power gaps.  Limited/realistic vertical progression.  Horizontal progression that unlocks new options.  Limited/realistic advantages gained by gear/equipment and items.  Magic and Divine/Infernal power would also have their limits.

    Most of the progression would be focused on gaining social, economic, political, or military ranks within a chosen faction.  Reputation/Renown/Infamy/Influence would be very important factors.  Players would also have the ability to hire & acquire NPC hirelings and subordinates."

    I believe you are right about all of this. 

    However, I have to admit that I want a game that's inviting to PvEers. Not hardcore PvEers, but your average player that doesn't want to be a target by other players very often. 
    If you don't have a good number of those types, I think a game will be lacking socially and eventually (sooner rather than later) fall into a purely PvP game. That's where it starts to die. None of this other stuff matters. It's part of play, but as a part of the PvP world. 

    To have these PvEers, or maybe it's better to call them non-PvPers, and keep them, they have to be able to play plenty of the game world without the constant attacks that PvPers will impose on them. 

    All of the things you and I have mentioned have the potential to make that happen, while still having the threat, minimum as it may be. I think that would be the ideal game world. 
    But you could also fail at doing it "strongly enough." 
    That's what gamers will be looking at if you start making such a game. 

    So the potential consequences of Griefing*, Stalking/Camping, and/or Abusing other players need to equal or outweigh whatever 'benefit' or 'enjoyment' those offending players receive from their behavior.

    *Remember, the definition of Griefing could vary widely from player to player.  Some more sensitive players may consider the possibility/capability of players to negatively impact their experience in any way to be Griefing.  These people may be control freaks or those who suffer from a lack of the ability to maintain control, or feel like they are in control, in their own personal/real lives.  Or not.  Anyway, I don't know why people like that would really ever want to play a game that has any form of competition.  Or even any kind of cooperation or possibility of interaction with others where they cannot control the performance of other players.  Or the outcomes of said cooperation/interaction.
    Gdemami
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,365
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:

    I've played OW FFA PvP Online RPG's, since the 80's. I've watched and lived through Online Multiplayer Games evolve for over the past three decades. Some were better than others.

    But, Let me ask you a question. How many have you really gotten invested into? How many have you played? And why are you not currently playing any of the many various other Open World PvP MMO's?

    Don't tell me.. let me guess.. there was always some reason, they all got something wrong with this perfect formula you have imagined how a game should be.. right?

    Well.. There is your answer. 

    Do you really think your ideas will solve the Lament Configuration that stands before you, when no one else could figure it out?
    A Faction-Based OWPVP/PVE Sandbox MMORPG does not necessarily = FFA.

    Alright.. so... Why are you not playing any of the various faction based PvP MMO's then?

    For the same reason I don't play the various PVE games. I've either played them to death or they're not what I actually want.


    Any further questions?
    Oh hell yah I have questions.

    What games have you played to death?
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,365
    Ungood said:
    Eh take your time.. Just logged into DDO.

    In reference to my post above, are the powers/abilities to defeat people physically, kill people, loot/steal/win things, buy and sell things, travel, gather materials, and craft items the only powers/abilities that matter in the real world?
    Yes.. I recall that post. I also mentioned you Try a PvP game called Eternal Crusade, that was before someone spouted their opnion from ignorance.

    Have you played: Wurm, or Life is Feudal yet?

    Really.. you need to get out and play more, as opposed to just sticking your head in the sand and regurgitating what you have already said every time someone disagrees with you.
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 1,931
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:

    I've played OW FFA PvP Online RPG's, since the 80's. I've watched and lived through Online Multiplayer Games evolve for over the past three decades. Some were better than others.

    But, Let me ask you a question. How many have you really gotten invested into? How many have you played? And why are you not currently playing any of the many various other Open World PvP MMO's?

    Don't tell me.. let me guess.. there was always some reason, they all got something wrong with this perfect formula you have imagined how a game should be.. right?

    Well.. There is your answer. 

    Do you really think your ideas will solve the Lament Configuration that stands before you, when no one else could figure it out?
    A Faction-Based OWPVP/PVE Sandbox MMORPG does not necessarily = FFA.

    Alright.. so... Why are you not playing any of the various faction based PvP MMO's then?

    For the same reason I don't play the various PVE games. I've either played them to death or they're not what I actually want.


    Any further questions?
    Oh hell yah I have questions.

    What games have you played to death?
    You name it I've probably played it or it's not my cup of tea. You're just going to have to face the fact that you are not some almighty guru of MMO's that knows what everyone wants. 
    Ancient_Exile
    "Wake up, It's RNG, there is no such thing as 'rare'"
    - Ungood
  • tzervotzervo Member RarePosts: 615
    The things I mentioned is on the code level. 
    Guardians that spawn against enemy Factions, and increase spawn when overwhelmed to account for masses in an invasion. 
    Deities that react to certain conditions. 
    Factions rules to add controls that, when broken, cause a reaction to said Player Characters. 

    Add in a Justice system for INTRA-Faction rule breaking such as PKing, theft, whatever else. 

    So I'm not sure what you mean. This is code that's automatic and in exchange for invisible walls. 
    Then I was not clear: to take the example of the Justice system, it could discourage PKing/theft but they will still happen - even via throw away accounts or alt accounts if the other player is a griefer. Risk (justice system penalties) vs rewards for the PK'er. Note I am not inherently against this: it depends. If it makes sense for the game (EVE/Albion) I am perfectly fine with it. If it does not, the dev is better off blocking friendly fire altogether - that's what I meant by block on the code level. Theft of faction resources is way trickier to prevent without assigning them to the person that produced them and having a permission system.
    Gdemami
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,365
    Ungood said:
    For the same reason I don't play the various PVE games. I've either played them to death or they're not what I actually want.


    Any further questions?
    Oh hell yah I have questions.

    What games have you played to death?
    You name it I've probably played it or it's not my cup of tea. You're just going to have to face the fact that you are not some almighty guru of MMO's that knows what everyone wants. 
    Alright.. so again.

    What MMOs have you played to death.
    Ancient_Exile
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    edited May 12
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Eh take your time.. Just logged into DDO.

    In reference to my post above, are the powers/abilities to defeat people physically, kill people, loot/steal/win things, buy and sell things, travel, gather materials, and craft items the only powers/abilities that matter in the real world?
    Yes.. I recall that post. I also mentioned you Try a PvP game called Eternal Crusade, that was before someone spouted their opnion from ignorance.

    Have you played: Wurm, or Life is Feudal yet?

    Really.. you need to get out and play more, as opposed to just sticking your head in the sand and regurgitating what you have already said every time someone disagrees with you.

    Yes, I have played Wurm.  You already asked me that before.  And, no, I did not like it.


    Seems like you can only play humans in Life is Feudal.  Do you remember me telling you that I want to play a Medieval Fantasy Faction-Based OWPVP/PVE Sandbox MMORPG?

    I think you are somewhat insulting my intelligence.  You're basically telling me that there is no way I can learn from knowledge and experiences shared by other people.  Or make-informed decisions based on my past experiences.  Instead, I must only be able to learn from personal experience.  Because I am not smart or wise enough to learn or know or understand anything otherwise.


    P.S.  It is totally possible for an enterprising player to irritate, troll, or grief other players in PVE-only games.  There are actually quite numerous ways this can be done.  Some players might even find this more enjoyable than outright killing another person's character.  And the major problem, I have found, is that a player who is on the receiving end of the griefing in a PVE-only game has very little recourse to deal with or get back at the offending player.  Besides block/ignore the player, leave the area, change instances, or quit the party.  Sometimes he or she might be able to kick the offending player from the party, but this is not always the case.



    Post edited by Ancient_Exile on
    GdemamiUngood
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,365
    edited May 12

    I think you are somewhat insulting my intelligence.  You're basically telling me that there is no way I can learn from knowledge and experiences shared by other people.  Or make-informed decisions based on my past experiences.  Instead, I must only be able to learn from personal experience.  Because I am not smart or wise enough to learn or know or understand anything otherwise.

    The fact that you continue to flat out ignore anyone and everyone that disagrees with you.. kinda tells me.. yah.

    But again.. good luck finding or funding your ideal game.
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    edited May 12
    Ungood said:

    I think you are somewhat insulting my intelligence.  You're basically telling me that there is no way I can learn from knowledge and experiences shared by other people.  Or make-informed decisions based on my past experiences.  Instead, I must only be able to learn from personal experience.  Because I am not smart or wise enough to learn or know or understand anything otherwise.

    The fact that you continue to flat out ignore anyone and everyone that disagrees with you.. kinda tells me.. yah.

    But again.. good luck finding or funding your ideal game.

    Really?  I "flat out ignore anyone and everyone that disagrees" with me?  Wow, you got me there.  I have never. ever. ever (ever) changed my opinion or altered my views based on someone else's insight, knowledge, wisdom, or experience.  And why should I?  I'm obviously the most intelligent and wisest person in existence.

    I appreciate your sentiment (sort of), but I don't believe in luck.


    @Ungood's Mottos





    Gdemami
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,242
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:

    I've played OW FFA PvP Online RPG's, since the 80's. I've watched and lived through Online Multiplayer Games evolve for over the past three decades. Some were better than others.

    But, Let me ask you a question. How many have you really gotten invested into? How many have you played? And why are you not currently playing any of the many various other Open World PvP MMO's?

    Don't tell me.. let me guess.. there was always some reason, they all got something wrong with this perfect formula you have imagined how a game should be.. right?

    Well.. There is your answer. 

    Do you really think your ideas will solve the Lament Configuration that stands before you, when no one else could figure it out?
    A Faction-Based OWPVP/PVE Sandbox MMORPG does not necessarily = FFA.

    Alright.. so... Why are you not playing any of the various faction based PvP MMO's then?


    (Took me some time to find older posts of mine that I wanted to quote.) 


    As I've mentioned or hinted at in numerous posts in the past, I do not like...

    "...unimaginative PVP games that safely stay within the Skinner Box Final Fantasy/Dragon Warrior/Everquest/World of Warcraft design and mentality.  Even most or the vast majority of Sandbox MMORPGs usually retain the out of control vertical Combat Power progression plus the dependency on gear to increase player character Combat Power."


    Here's what I think will make for a far better PVP MMORPG...

    3) Vertical progression must be limited (& more realistic).  Most of the progression (skill-wise) would be horizontal [unlocking more options -ed].  Atrophy and regression should also be a factor.  Just as in real life, if an attribute, skill, ability, or talent is not used much, its strength can decrease over time.  

    4) Gear bonuses must be limited.  There must be a definite ceiling on how much gear, equipment, and items can increase the power of a character.  Skills, abilities, and talents (plus the skill of the player) should be just as important or probably more important than gear."


    Why the above is important (perhaps essential)...


    "However, what I have seen in the vast majority of MMORPGs that have OWPVP, or even just PVP, is that the competition is really more of a Race.  Who can get to higher or max level the fastest?  Who can acquire BIS gear before other players?  Because Character Level and Gear Level usually matter more than skill.  The most skilled players might not have a chance if they aren't high enough level or don't have good enough gear.  No matter how well they play.  Then throw in P2W Cash Shops, allow Whales to pay to crush other players, and PVP gets really screwed up."


    Again...

    "No huge power gaps.  Limited/realistic vertical progression.  Horizontal progression that unlocks new options.  Limited/realistic advantages gained by gear/equipment and items.  Magic and Divine/Infernal power would also have their limits.

    Most of the progression would be focused on gaining social, economic, political, or military ranks within a chosen faction.  Reputation/Renown/Infamy/Influence would be very important factors.  Players would also have the ability to hire & acquire NPC hirelings and subordinates."

    I believe you are right about all of this. 

    However, I have to admit that I want a game that's inviting to PvEers. Not hardcore PvEers, but your average player that doesn't want to be a target by other players very often. 
    If you don't have a good number of those types, I think a game will be lacking socially and eventually (sooner rather than later) fall into a purely PvP game. That's where it starts to die. None of this other stuff matters. It's part of play, but as a part of the PvP world. 

    To have these PvEers, or maybe it's better to call them non-PvPers, and keep them, they have to be able to play plenty of the game world without the constant attacks that PvPers will impose on them. 

    All of the things you and I have mentioned have the potential to make that happen, while still having the threat, minimum as it may be. I think that would be the ideal game world. 
    But you could also fail at doing it "strongly enough." 
    That's what gamers will be looking at if you start making such a game. 

    So the potential consequences of Griefing*, Stalking/Camping, and/or Abusing other players need to equal or outweigh whatever 'benefit' or 'enjoyment' those offending players receive from their behavior.

    *Remember, the definition of Griefing could vary widely from player to player.  Some more sensitive players may consider the possibility/capability of players to negatively impact their experience in any way to be Griefing.  These people may be control freaks or those who suffer from a lack of the ability to maintain control, or feel like they are in control, in their own personal/real lives.  Or not.  Anyway, I don't know why people like that would really ever want to play a game that has any form of competition.  Or even any kind of cooperation or possibility of interaction with others where they cannot control the performance of other players.  Or the outcomes of said cooperation/interaction.
    You need to define griefing yourself, and get it right with players that aren't PvPers. Or try your luck with a PvP game and hope you can accomplish what no one else has. 
    Logic tells me that it won't work, and that's purely based on logic and not what's happened in games before. I knew it from the very beginning, and have said these same things ever since early UO. It's proven right so far. 

    In the end, if you make a game, it's your decision. But it's late in the market now, with years of history. It's a tough sell from the get-go no matter how you go. So consider that too, and be prepared to present your pitch with logic. You'll probably need to provide evidence in testing on the Guardian type stuff, and explain the results and what you want for game play. 
    Gdemami

    Once upon a time....

  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:

    I've played OW FFA PvP Online RPG's, since the 80's. I've watched and lived through Online Multiplayer Games evolve for over the past three decades. Some were better than others.

    But, Let me ask you a question. How many have you really gotten invested into? How many have you played? And why are you not currently playing any of the many various other Open World PvP MMO's?

    Don't tell me.. let me guess.. there was always some reason, they all got something wrong with this perfect formula you have imagined how a game should be.. right?

    Well.. There is your answer. 

    Do you really think your ideas will solve the Lament Configuration that stands before you, when no one else could figure it out?
    A Faction-Based OWPVP/PVE Sandbox MMORPG does not necessarily = FFA.

    Alright.. so... Why are you not playing any of the various faction based PvP MMO's then?


    (Took me some time to find older posts of mine that I wanted to quote.) 


    As I've mentioned or hinted at in numerous posts in the past, I do not like...

    "...unimaginative PVP games that safely stay within the Skinner Box Final Fantasy/Dragon Warrior/Everquest/World of Warcraft design and mentality.  Even most or the vast majority of Sandbox MMORPGs usually retain the out of control vertical Combat Power progression plus the dependency on gear to increase player character Combat Power."


    Here's what I think will make for a far better PVP MMORPG...

    3) Vertical progression must be limited (& more realistic).  Most of the progression (skill-wise) would be horizontal [unlocking more options -ed].  Atrophy and regression should also be a factor.  Just as in real life, if an attribute, skill, ability, or talent is not used much, its strength can decrease over time.  

    4) Gear bonuses must be limited.  There must be a definite ceiling on how much gear, equipment, and items can increase the power of a character.  Skills, abilities, and talents (plus the skill of the player) should be just as important or probably more important than gear."


    Why the above is important (perhaps essential)...


    "However, what I have seen in the vast majority of MMORPGs that have OWPVP, or even just PVP, is that the competition is really more of a Race.  Who can get to higher or max level the fastest?  Who can acquire BIS gear before other players?  Because Character Level and Gear Level usually matter more than skill.  The most skilled players might not have a chance if they aren't high enough level or don't have good enough gear.  No matter how well they play.  Then throw in P2W Cash Shops, allow Whales to pay to crush other players, and PVP gets really screwed up."


    Again...

    "No huge power gaps.  Limited/realistic vertical progression.  Horizontal progression that unlocks new options.  Limited/realistic advantages gained by gear/equipment and items.  Magic and Divine/Infernal power would also have their limits.

    Most of the progression would be focused on gaining social, economic, political, or military ranks within a chosen faction.  Reputation/Renown/Infamy/Influence would be very important factors.  Players would also have the ability to hire & acquire NPC hirelings and subordinates."

    I believe you are right about all of this. 

    However, I have to admit that I want a game that's inviting to PvEers. Not hardcore PvEers, but your average player that doesn't want to be a target by other players very often. 
    If you don't have a good number of those types, I think a game will be lacking socially and eventually (sooner rather than later) fall into a purely PvP game. That's where it starts to die. None of this other stuff matters. It's part of play, but as a part of the PvP world. 

    To have these PvEers, or maybe it's better to call them non-PvPers, and keep them, they have to be able to play plenty of the game world without the constant attacks that PvPers will impose on them. 

    All of the things you and I have mentioned have the potential to make that happen, while still having the threat, minimum as it may be. I think that would be the ideal game world. 
    But you could also fail at doing it "strongly enough." 
    That's what gamers will be looking at if you start making such a game. 

    So the potential consequences of Griefing*, Stalking/Camping, and/or Abusing other players need to equal or outweigh whatever 'benefit' or 'enjoyment' those offending players receive from their behavior.

    *Remember, the definition of Griefing could vary widely from player to player.  Some more sensitive players may consider the possibility/capability of players to negatively impact their experience in any way to be Griefing.  These people may be control freaks or those who suffer from a lack of the ability to maintain control, or feel like they are in control, in their own personal/real lives.  Or not.  Anyway, I don't know why people like that would really ever want to play a game that has any form of competition.  Or even any kind of cooperation or possibility of interaction with others where they cannot control the performance of other players.  Or the outcomes of said cooperation/interaction.
    You need to define griefing yourself, and get it right with players that aren't PvPers. Or try your luck with a PvP game and hope you can accomplish what no one else has. 
    Logic tells me that it won't work, and that's purely based on logic and not what's happened in games before. I knew it from the very beginning, and have said these same things ever since early UO. It's proven right so far. 

    In the end, if you make a game, it's your decision. But it's late in the market now, with years of history. It's a tough sell from the get-go no matter how you go. So consider that too, and be prepared to present your pitch with logic. You'll probably need to provide evidence in testing on the Guardian type stuff, and explain the results and what you want for game play. 

    We can go with that.

    But what won't work exactly?  Not developing a system which ABSOLUTELY PREVENTS Griefing of any kind?  How do you do that and maintain any kind of logic and realism in the game?



    Gdemami
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    edited May 12


    "1. Purposefully shooting or otherwise sabotaging your teammates in an online game."

    I don't know if even the sacred PVE-Only MMORPGs have figured out how to prevent that.  And it's fairly difficult for someone to gain a bad reputation among players on heavily populated servers or MegaServers.

    "2. In online gaming where one repeatedly killing the same individual or individuals over and over again, or camping their corpse to prevent them from retrieving it, or otherwise performing actions in a game to prevent the player from enjoying the game."

    A game could prevent a player from attacking another player that he or she has just killed for, let's say, 1-4 hours.  Unless that other player initiates combat first.  Or unless the player who was killed enters the Factional territory of the other player and starts killing PCs/NPCs and/or starts burning and pillaging.  Or unless the players are fighting in on a designated battlefield or contested zone (wherein PVP is constant).  Corpse retrieval is dumb, so that won't be a problem.  There are better/more logical Death Penalties than that.

    "...otherwise performing actions in a game to prevent the player from enjoying the game..."

    That's the part that can be highly subjective. 

    "3. In online gaming, someone who takes pleasure in creating grief for an opponent via various "cheap" tactics."

    This can also be somewhat subjective.  One person's cheap tactics may or may not be sound military strategy to another.


    Anyway, let's explore one way that something akin to Griefing was dealt with in the past of the real world...







    Gdemami
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,361
    Getting back on topic here, which is not about anyone's "dream MMORPG", let's talk about the never born EQ Next.

    One of my biggest worries with the game was the voxel based destructible world they planned on. They had Norrath set up in vertical layers and a player could "dig" their way down to the next layer. This was a "sense of discovery" ploy. I had visions about seeing the top layer looking like swiss cheese in 1 day. Maybe even falling into a hole that someone dug upwards right underneath me. This did not sound like "fun" to me, but many players ate the concept up. It happens all the time on Minecraft servers, I guess.

    This kind of "affect the world" would keep me away from the game, though for EQ Next I'd planned on taking a peak, at least :)

    Let me ask what ways players can affect a game world? My examples were pretty terrible.

    PS: If no one notices your influences, does it matter?
    IselinUngood

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,557
    AlBQuirky said:
    Getting back on topic here, which is not about anyone's "dream MMORPG", let's talk about the never born EQ Next.

    One of my biggest worries with the game was the voxel based destructible world they planned on. They had Norrath set up in vertical layers and a player could "dig" their way down to the next layer. This was a "sense of discovery" ploy. I had visions about seeing the top layer looking like swiss cheese in 1 day. Maybe even falling into a hole that someone dug upwards right underneath me. This did not sound like "fun" to me, but many players ate the concept up. It happens all the time on Minecraft servers, I guess.

    This kind of "affect the world" would keep me away from the game, though for EQ Next I'd planned on taking a peak, at least :)

    Let me ask what ways players can affect a game world? My examples were pretty terrible.

    PS: If no one notices your influences, does it matter?
    I was never a fan of the "hey, let's also make it like minecraft!" part. It was their other ideas about sophisticated NPC AI and unique player interactions with them, roaming mobs with a purpose, etc. that interested me.

    As to players changing the world I think NPCs or developers with updates could do that just as well and create a dynamic world probably better than players would since a large portion of the players is usually more concerned with gaming the game and developers and NPCs would have more lore-consistent motivation.

    I don't have a lot of faith on the way that players collectively would change a game if they had a lot of ways to do it. I kind of expected EQN to have penis towers everywhere :)
    Ancient_ExileAlBQuirky
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,365
    AlBQuirky said:
    Getting back on topic here, which is not about anyone's "dream MMORPG", let's talk about the never born EQ Next.

    One of my biggest worries with the game was the voxel based destructible world they planned on. They had Norrath set up in vertical layers and a player could "dig" their way down to the next layer. This was a "sense of discovery" ploy. I had visions about seeing the top layer looking like swiss cheese in 1 day. Maybe even falling into a hole that someone dug upwards right underneath me. This did not sound like "fun" to me, but many players ate the concept up. It happens all the time on Minecraft servers, I guess.

    This kind of "affect the world" would keep me away from the game, though for EQ Next I'd planned on taking a peak, at least :)

    Let me ask what ways players can affect a game world? My examples were pretty terrible.

    PS: If no one notices your influences, does it matter?
    LOL, I have got to say, after playing Trove, Destructible Voxel worlds are the epic shizzle shitz of game world design and I expect many newer MMO's to try and build that feature in, some way, being able to fully modify the landscape like that is awesome. 

    With that said, you are not wrong about the swiss cheese look, in Trove, people do what is called Bomb Mining, where they find "ore" veins, and as opposed to digging them out, they just blow them apart with bombs, in short, they strip mine the areas. Now, in Trove they have mining veins which is what people value and want, the basic ground blocks, not so much, so, there is less rampant destruction to the overall game map, but it's still quite obvious where the nodes were, as there are random deep holes blown into the landscape, there are also people that just like tossing bombs, and bought/earned a tortoise mount just so they could endlessly toss bombs as they moved about the game world, so there is that as well.

    And diggin up under someone is cool, but it's just "cool" it's not to be confused with a combat tactic, as they can't set a deep pit, if they have dig up to get you to fall, and even if they dropped you into a pit, you can dig out with ease.

    tzervoAlBQuirky
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
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