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Very Interesting Article on the Death Penalty in MMORPGs

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  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 28,634
    edited May 6
    AlBQuirky said:
    It seems that some players feel failure is a punishment. And that's cool.

    Other players feel failure is just failure. And that's cool.

    In the MMO games of today, I don't feel one iota of "punishment" in a game where I am max level in 2 weeks tops. World of Warcraft's "death penalty" I have used as a means of fast travel, it's so piddly.

    I just don't feel "punished" by failure, but understand how some players can. Is that more of  true "fear of failure" than I have? :lol:
    It goes back to that "blue ribbon" thing. 
    It's not fear of "punishment", it's expectations of success as "a given." 
    And I'm sorry, but I don't see that as being fine. I see it as an issue. 

    The real world awaits to slap some sense into those people. 
    And then they (most of them) are going to start blaming everybody/thing but themselves. 
    (Apologies, but that's the truth.) 

    these games are not doing anyone any favors by giving them all that they want. In fact, doing the opposite. 
    To that point, and something that this discussion makes me wonder about, is it a generational thing?

    Are the people who think that such things like "death penalties = punishment" much younger, in their twenties players?

    And the players who don't think that are 40 +? Just a thought. Might not be correct.
    Ancient_Exile
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,206
    Sovrath said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    It seems that some players feel failure is a punishment. And that's cool.

    Other players feel failure is just failure. And that's cool.

    In the MMO games of today, I don't feel one iota of "punishment" in a game where I am max level in 2 weeks tops. World of Warcraft's "death penalty" I have used as a means of fast travel, it's so piddly.

    I just don't feel "punished" by failure, but understand how some players can. Is that more of  true "fear of failure" than I have? :lol:
    It goes back to that "blue ribbon" thing. 
    It's not fear of "punishment", it's expectations of success as "a given." 
    And I'm sorry, but I don't see that as being fine. I see it as an issue. 

    The real world awaits to slap some sense into those people. 
    And then they (most of them) are going to start blaming everybody/thing but themselves. 
    (Apologies, but that's the truth.) 

    these games are not doing anyone any favors by giving them all that they want. In fact, doing the opposite. 
    To that point, and something that this discussion makes me wonder about, is it a generational thing?

    Are the people who think that such things like "death penalties = punishment" much younger, in their twenties players?

    And the players who don't think that are 40 +? Just a thought. Might not be correct.
    That's an excellent point. 
    I grew up with parents that went through the Spanish Flu, the Great Depression and WWII. 
    (My dad was an orphan because of the Flu, and when he was 18 he enlisted to fight the Nazis because of our heritage, Dutch. That's a rough way to start life, and I never once heard him not make a joke out of a tough situation.) 

    I grew up in the "Boomer" generation, along with the drugs and Woodstock and the peace movements and demands for a perfect world, and all of that. 
    That's where it started, not with the current youth. 

    But it appears to me that those tough years of the first half of the 20th Century "made men men, and women women." 
    And the very good years after WWII brought a spoiled life and high expectations. 

    It's only because some of us still remember lessons handed down from "The Greatest Generation" that we even recognize this issue. Most of us didn't really appreciate those lessons until we got older, and wiser to the real world. 
    Sovrath

    Once upon a time....

  • ShaighShaigh Member RarePosts: 2,058
    Back in the days I cared a lot about character progression, nowadays I care more about content progression. EXP and gear penalty makes sense when it comes to character progression, it goes completely against what people looking for content progression wish to play.

    Its not about which generation you grew up with, its whether you changed your preferences over time or not.
    The cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 1,897
    edited May 6
    To me this also ties into the other thread about immersion. We're talking about "Death" here and since actual death isn't the sort of thing many people want in their long term progression MMORPG there are other, better means to create a death-like experience. Over time some people saw it as an inconvenience or annoyance so they complained and hence the change to having zero penalty, but alas for many we still strive to have that level of immersion where death means something and isn't just a slight inconvenience for making poor decisions, but is actually part of the game, part of the experience.

    It's not for everyone, but for those of us that do love the experience a death penalty provides; playing games that don't have it, well to be blunt the experience is more shallow, boring, lifeless. 

    Imagine fighting something and both your health bars are at a sliver.  You know if you mess up and die you are going to have debuffs, lost items, lost experience, or some kind of death penalty. You make the right choices and you come out the victor. The level of excitement you get from that is incomparable to not having anything on the line.

    Just my 2c.
    SovrathAmarantharAncient_ExileAlBQuirky
    "Wake up, It's RNG, there is no such thing as 'rare'"
    - Ungood
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 28,634
    To me this also ties into the other thread about immersion. We're talking about "Death" here and since actual death isn't the sort of thing many people want in their long term progression MMORPG there are other, better means to create a death-like experience. Over time some people saw it as an inconvenience or annoyance so they complained and hence the change to having zero penalty, but alas for many we still strive to have that level of immersion where death means something and isn't just a slight inconvenience for making poor decisions, but is actually part of the game, part of the experience.

    It's not for everyone, but for those of us that do love the experience a death penalty provides; playing games that don't have it, well to be blunt the experience is more shallow, boring, lifeless. 

    Imagine fighting something and both your health bars are at a sliver.  You know if you mess up and die you are going to have debuffs, lost items, lost experience, or some kind of death penalty. You make the right choices and you come out the victor. The level of excitement you get from that is incomparable to not having anything on the line.

    Just my 2c.
    I completley agree with you in the above example but that goes back again to how different people experience death penalties differently.

    Some people would just quit if they lost items. Some people would quit if it was constant running back to "do it again."

    An example is dark souls. And for me specifically that giant wolf with a sword in his mouth after dying countless times  (on pc so with sketchy controls) and then having to run alllll the way back to where he was each time I eventually just put the game down.

    Recently picked it up again as I'm a bit better with controller now.

    But if it was just stat loss or and of course losing souls, then I could deal with that. I have issues with things I consider tedious.

    Yet, other people don't really respond to lost items or xp and are good with "you failed." Failure is its own admonisment.

    That's why I think developers should be more focused with the games they make and NOT make them for everyone. Make the game they want, make it good and the people will come.
    immodiumChildoftheShadowsAncient_ExileAlBQuirky
  • tzervotzervo Member RarePosts: 521
    edited May 6
    To me this also ties into the other thread about immersion. ...
    If you want to tie death to immersion, I have yet to see someone do it better than EVE online. Perfectly plausible lore reason for respawning (clones) and losing everything you carry.

    Survived By also had a good twist to it, but it went tits up.
    Sovrath
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 1,897
    Sovrath said:
    To me this also ties into the other thread about immersion. We're talking about "Death" here and since actual death isn't the sort of thing many people want in their long term progression MMORPG there are other, better means to create a death-like experience. Over time some people saw it as an inconvenience or annoyance so they complained and hence the change to having zero penalty, but alas for many we still strive to have that level of immersion where death means something and isn't just a slight inconvenience for making poor decisions, but is actually part of the game, part of the experience.

    It's not for everyone, but for those of us that do love the experience a death penalty provides; playing games that don't have it, well to be blunt the experience is more shallow, boring, lifeless. 

    Imagine fighting something and both your health bars are at a sliver.  You know if you mess up and die you are going to have debuffs, lost items, lost experience, or some kind of death penalty. You make the right choices and you come out the victor. The level of excitement you get from that is incomparable to not having anything on the line.

    Just my 2c

    ...

    That's why I think developers should be more focused with the games they make and NOT make them for everyone. Make the game they want, make it good and the people will come.
    I've been saying this for so long it hurts. This is the reason I haven't had a good new game to play in over a decade. Everyone trying to solve everything and making nothing but clones of the same trash.
    Ancient_Exile
    "Wake up, It's RNG, there is no such thing as 'rare'"
    - Ungood
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 1,897
    Sovrath said:
    Some people would just quit if they lost items. Some people would quit if it was constant running back to "do it again."

    An example is dark souls. And for me specifically that giant wolf with a sword in his mouth after dying countless times  (on pc so with sketchy controls) and then having to run alllll the way back to where he was each time I eventually just put the game down. 
    I've found that this is the main reason I have a hard time trying to get back into Eve these days. It's not the loss or hard work, it's the insane number of hours spent traveling just to get anywhere. Also playing Darkfall with friends and being an hour away from home when one of use dies we didn't care about losing our gear but the night was often over if we didn't have a runestone to get the other guy back to us, unless we wanted to all port back home and start over again.
    Ancient_ExileSovrath
    "Wake up, It's RNG, there is no such thing as 'rare'"
    - Ungood
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,259
    edited May 7
    Imagine fighting something and both your health bars are at a sliver.  You know if you mess up and die you are going to have debuffs, lost items, lost experience, or some kind of death penalty. You make the right choices and you come out the victor. The level of excitement you get from that is incomparable to not having anything on the line.

    Just my 2c.

    This hasn't happened to me in an MMO for years:



    **Go to about 50 seconds in.**
    (couldn't get the player to start there...)

    Retlon Brenclog and my 1/2Elf Bard, Merrigrin experience: Synchro Deaths in EQ!
    I had my healing song going, so that's why I kept popping back up :)
    ChildoftheShadows

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,259
    Sovrath said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    It seems that some players feel failure is a punishment. And that's cool.

    Other players feel failure is just failure. And that's cool.

    In the MMO games of today, I don't feel one iota of "punishment" in a game where I am max level in 2 weeks tops. World of Warcraft's "death penalty" I have used as a means of fast travel, it's so piddly.

    I just don't feel "punished" by failure, but understand how some players can. Is that more of  true "fear of failure" than I have? :lol:
    It goes back to that "blue ribbon" thing. 
    It's not fear of "punishment", it's expectations of success as "a given." 
    And I'm sorry, but I don't see that as being fine. I see it as an issue. 

    The real world awaits to slap some sense into those people. 
    And then they (most of them) are going to start blaming everybody/thing but themselves. 
    (Apologies, but that's the truth.) 

    these games are not doing anyone any favors by giving them all that they want. In fact, doing the opposite. 
    To that point, and something that this discussion makes me wonder about, is it a generational thing?

    Are the people who think that such things like "death penalties = punishment" much younger, in their twenties players?

    And the players who don't think that are 40 +? Just a thought. Might not be correct.

    Well, I'm 57 and Iselin I think said he was 70 or so. We are on opposite sides here :)

    But Iselin is Canadian and I'm American! :LOL:
    Ancient_Exile

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,365
    edited May 7
    immodium said:
    Kyleran said:

    Finally,  of course it makes sense to punish you for failure, another poster shared with you the multitude of evidence proving how failure drives us to succeed.


    Imagine someone takes an entrance exam and fails it. The failure of not being accepted isn't enough, they should be punished on top of that?

    I'm all for failure. I don't want everything to be easy.
    Kyleran said:

    Well, one other correlation between your platform game and MMORPGs, once your emulator removed the only real death penalty you had, starting over, you finished up and put the game aside in a very short time,  much like many gamers do with easy mode MMORPGs today.

    They were already easy, they just got rid of the time sinks. (Long travel times, slow xp gain, corpse running etc).
    That's the problem with real life analogies, difficult  to correlate to a gaming situation.

    In this example failing an entrance exam is akin to permadeath in a video game....the ultimate death penalty. 

    If you study law for 8 years but never pass the bar, quite likely that failure will punish you financially and emotionally for the rest of your life. 

    As for difficulty, of course the mechanics themselves were almost always easy, reducing, minimizing, eliminating the travel times, slow exp grind, corpse running and avoidance of failure was the a big part of the challenge and game play to overcome. 


    AlBQuirky

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    edited May 7
    Kyleran said:
    immodium said:
    Kyleran said:

    Finally,  of course it makes sense to punish you for failure, another poster shared with you the multitude of evidence proving how failure drives us to succeed.


    Imagine someone takes an entrance exam and fails it. The failure of not being accepted isn't enough, they should be punished on top of that?

    I'm all for failure. I don't want everything to be easy.
    Kyleran said:

    Well, one other correlation between your platform game and MMORPGs, once your emulator removed the only real death penalty you had, starting over, you finished up and put the game aside in a very short time,  much like many gamers do with easy mode MMORPGs today.

    They were already easy, they just got rid of the time sinks. (Long travel times, slow xp gain, corpse running etc).
    That's the problem with real life analogies, difficult  to correlate to a gaming situation.

    In this example failing an entrance exam is akin to permadeath in a video game....the ultimate death penalty. 

    If you study law for 8 years but never pass the bar, quite likely that failure will punish you financially and emotionally for the rest of your life. 

    As for difficulty, of course the mechanics themselves were almost always easy, reducing, minimizing, eliminating the travel times, slow exp grind, corpse running and avoidance of failure was the a big part of the challenge and game play to overcome. 



    It seemed like the first couple MMORPGs I played had steep learning curves.  Learning and mastering all the myriad features, systems, and mechanics is part of the challenge.  And each new game has is its own set of challenges in learning and mastering its own unique systems.  Though this can be easier if the systems are somewhat similar to games I've played before.  Anyway, I don't think the vast majority of people could say that certain MMORPGs were easy when they first started playing them. 
    Post edited by Ancient_Exile on
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,354
    AAAMEOW said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    tzervo said:
    tzervo said:
    It is not about the encounter's difficulty, it is about making interesting decisions with their corresponding consequences and/or rewards.

    If the loss mechanics are not paired with interesting decisions, then they are a mere annoyance and the design is bad.

    Decisions relating to how to, or even whether to, regain what I already had don't sound all that interesting to me. For me it is simply an annoyance that wastes time that could otherwise be spent productively.
    This is a rationalization.

    A quote from a blog that put it succinctly in words with an example:
    So the player has a choice to grind X hours to get emblems or to get lucky with a low chance drop to get the upgrade. Or, he can engage in a risky mission that can give him the same upgrade in a single hour if he succeeds but Y hours of grind to get back where he is if he loses.
    The time cost of the grinding choice is obviously X hours. For the risky choice, the time cost is: 1+(1-C)*(X+Y) where C is the chance of success. The “1” part is the one hour for the risky mission. The (X+Y) part comes from the assumption that after he failed, he just gives up and grinds. It’s easier to calculate with this than with repeated attempts and the result is the same. The player wants to minimize time to reward, so chooses the shorter one. The risky is shorter if X > 1+(1-C)*(X+Y) which can be solved into C > (1+Y)/(X+Y). Assuming the death penalty is 10 hours and you need to grind 100 hours, you should take the risk if your chance is bigger than 11/110 = 10%.
    It’s a straightforward formula. Where is the “interesting decision”? It comes from the fact that your chance cannot be measured, it can only be approximated and it lies on the elusive self-consciousness. The question comes down to “how good I am/the team is in this game”? This is always an interesting thing to think about.

    https://greedygoblinblog.wordpress.com/2018/01/09/the-interesting-decision-around-death-penalty/

    As far as I am concerned, the rest of the blog post also makes some interesting points, even though they sting.


    In accordance with my vow, I have read the article which you graciously chose to share with the rest of the class.  I found it to be interesting, intriguing, enlightening, and entertaining all wrapped up and rolled into one.


    "...Why did the death penalty diminished, along with the whole MMO scene? Because it’s hard to deny that the MMOs are in horrible shape. The most successful one, WoW is stagnating/losing players for years and there are no serious contenders with even 1/10 of its playerbase.

    This is because they made the wrong choice of including entitled punks. Not casuals, not even socials. Casuals, like a middle aged mum who plays while the kids are asleep is aware of her limited skills. She is fine with the grinding. Actually, she likes the easy and interruptible entertainment of being in a magical world. The social is fine being around, being involved with the group instead of being at the tip of the spear. This is crucial: death penalty isn’t a problem to low-skill players as long as they are self-aware and have a grindy alternative path of progression...

    ...Please realize the catch: by removing death penalty, neither the skilled, nor the casual/social players got help. The entitled punks did, the group that you really don’t want in any group game. By removing death penalty, the devs invited the most toxic people: those who look down on fellow players based on oversized ego and blame and curse them for their own frequent failures..."

    I think it's simpler than that. The less harsh death penalties became the less people complained about them, so they kept easing them more over time as new game came to the market to the point they are largely trivial in most MMORPGs.

    Death penalties are a problem for "low-skill" players as they are inhibit what that player is inclined to do. Without they can attempt more and accordingly learn more, leading to an experience less laced with drudgery.
    It's funny thinking about it.  I was playing legend of aria and when you die you loss all your gear and inventory.  But since gear is easily replaceable, you don't really loss much of anything.  

    Basically what I am saying is usually what I loss isn't much different from a long corpse run in a generic themepark game.  

    People have low tolerance level.  People can tolerate 30 minutes of progress loss.  But if people are lossing tens/hundreds of hours of progress, they are very likely to quit.    


    I beg to differ.  Some people have a higher tolerance for pain than others.  Others have a higher tolerance for tedium/repetition than others.  For example, it seems that a certain percentage of players are more willing to put up with grinding or say they actually enjoy grinding (huh?).  As opposed to those of us who are less willing to put up with grinding and are reasonably annoyed when that is one of the few options available to us.  Especially when it is the only option.  (Just because the game developers can't figure out anything else for us to do at End Game.  Or because it's just easier to make us grind than to come up with other ways for high/max level player characters to spend their time.)

    Btw, I still haven't downloaded Legend of Aria.  I actually forgot it about for the last couple days or so.
    It is kind of why I never really believe your philosophy of making games more interesting would do anything.  Most of the popular games are just a bunch of grind and repetition.  

    I think very few people have high tolerance level.  I dont' play Eve but I presume it have harsh death penalty because you don't die all that much.  I think at most 1 hour of wasted time is enough for a death penalty.  

    How many options do players have if they want to play a newer/more modern AAA MMORPG with decent/better graphics? 
    There are like 300 mmorpg out there.  Other game genre have far more players and far less games.  

    If you believe in your idea so much, would you invest all your fortune to make such game?  I guess many people says no.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,365
    edited May 7
    AAAMEOW said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    tzervo said:




     



    Btw, I still haven't downloaded Legend of Aria.  I actually forgot it about for the last couple days or so.
    It is kind of why I never really believe your philosophy of making games more interesting would do anything.  Most of the popular games are just a bunch of grind and repetition.  

    I think very few people have high tolerance level.  I dont' play Eve but I presume it have harsh death penalty because you don't die all that much.  I think at most 1 hour of wasted time is enough for a death penalty.  

    How many options do players have if they want to play a newer/more modern AAA MMORPG with decent/better graphics? 
    There are like 300 mmorpg out there.  Other game genre have far more players and far less games.  

    If you believe in your idea so much, would you invest all your fortune to make such game?  I guess many people says no.
    300 MMORPGS, most of them crap.

    Bruce said it best

    57 channels, and nothing on.


    AlBQuirkyAAAMEOWAncient_Exile

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 28,634
    AlBQuirky said:
    Sovrath said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    It seems that some players feel failure is a punishment. And that's cool.

    Other players feel failure is just failure. And that's cool.

    In the MMO games of today, I don't feel one iota of "punishment" in a game where I am max level in 2 weeks tops. World of Warcraft's "death penalty" I have used as a means of fast travel, it's so piddly.

    I just don't feel "punished" by failure, but understand how some players can. Is that more of  true "fear of failure" than I have? :lol:
    It goes back to that "blue ribbon" thing. 
    It's not fear of "punishment", it's expectations of success as "a given." 
    And I'm sorry, but I don't see that as being fine. I see it as an issue. 

    The real world awaits to slap some sense into those people. 
    And then they (most of them) are going to start blaming everybody/thing but themselves. 
    (Apologies, but that's the truth.) 

    these games are not doing anyone any favors by giving them all that they want. In fact, doing the opposite. 
    To that point, and something that this discussion makes me wonder about, is it a generational thing?

    Are the people who think that such things like "death penalties = punishment" much younger, in their twenties players?

    And the players who don't think that are 40 +? Just a thought. Might not be correct.

    Well, I'm 57 and Iselin I think said he was 70 or so. We are on opposite sides here :)

    But Iselin is Canadian and I'm American! :LOL:

    I think Kylran is 70 "ish" and Iselin is in his 20's? I don't remember. but I'm 53 and I'm starting to forget things. :o
    AlBQuirkykitaradKyleranUngood
  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member RarePosts: 1,135
    Sovrath said:
    Are the people who think that such things like "death penalties = punishment" much younger, in their twenties players?

    Penalty by definition is punishment. It is not a thought based issue.

    A difference in age may factor into how a punishment is viewed, but that is far from certain. I haven't seen my twenties for quite some time and personally don't see value in penalties beyond the time wasted due to failure.
    AlBQuirky
  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member RarePosts: 1,135
    AlBQuirky said:
    It seems that some players feel failure is a punishment. And that's cool.

    Other players feel failure is just failure. And that's cool.

    In the MMO games of today, I don't feel one iota of "punishment" in a game where I am max level in 2 weeks tops. World of Warcraft's "death penalty" I have used as a means of fast travel, it's so piddly.

    I just don't feel "punished" by failure, but understand how some players can. Is that more of  true "fear of failure" than I have? :lol:
    It goes back to that "blue ribbon" thing. 
    It's not fear of "punishment", it's expectations of success as "a given." 
    And I'm sorry, but I don't see that as being fine. I see it as an issue. 

    The real world awaits to slap some sense into those people. 
    And then they (most of them) are going to start blaming everybody/thing but themselves. 
    (Apologies, but that's the truth.) 

    these games are not doing anyone any favors by giving them all that they want. In fact, doing the opposite. 

    The real world is adept in the application of punishment, to the point where many feel a need to take a break from it to refresh to better sustain the next incoming wave.

    I can see how games with little in the way or repercussion can be favourable to some.
    AlBQuirky
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 1,897
    AAAMEOW said: 
    There are like 300 mmorpg out there.  Other game genre have far more players and far less games.  
    How do you expect anyone to take you seriously after this horribly fake statistic?
    Ancient_Exile
    "Wake up, It's RNG, there is no such thing as 'rare'"
    - Ungood
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,206
    AlBQuirky said:
    It seems that some players feel failure is a punishment. And that's cool.

    Other players feel failure is just failure. And that's cool.

    In the MMO games of today, I don't feel one iota of "punishment" in a game where I am max level in 2 weeks tops. World of Warcraft's "death penalty" I have used as a means of fast travel, it's so piddly.

    I just don't feel "punished" by failure, but understand how some players can. Is that more of  true "fear of failure" than I have? :lol:
    It goes back to that "blue ribbon" thing. 
    It's not fear of "punishment", it's expectations of success as "a given." 
    And I'm sorry, but I don't see that as being fine. I see it as an issue. 

    The real world awaits to slap some sense into those people. 
    And then they (most of them) are going to start blaming everybody/thing but themselves. 
    (Apologies, but that's the truth.) 

    these games are not doing anyone any favors by giving them all that they want. In fact, doing the opposite. 

    The real world is adept in the application of punishment, to the point where many feel a need to take a break from it to refresh to better sustain the next incoming wave.

    I can see how games with little in the way or repercussion can be favourable to some.

    If you expect to just be handed success 
    (as in guaranteed gains without loss in games) 
    then you have been victimized by this thinking. 

    I know it sounds harsh to some people, but to them I say, what kind of person are you? Where's your pride? 

    It's sad that many gamers look at their MMORPGs as a form of instant gratification rather than an experience with some depth. 

    Still, I have to respect their rights, if not their choice. 
    Tuor7tzervoAncient_Exile

    Once upon a time....

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,425
    Sovrath said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Sovrath said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    It seems that some players feel failure is a punishment. And that's cool.

    Other players feel failure is just failure. And that's cool.

    In the MMO games of today, I don't feel one iota of "punishment" in a game where I am max level in 2 weeks tops. World of Warcraft's "death penalty" I have used as a means of fast travel, it's so piddly.

    I just don't feel "punished" by failure, but understand how some players can. Is that more of  true "fear of failure" than I have? :lol:
    It goes back to that "blue ribbon" thing. 
    It's not fear of "punishment", it's expectations of success as "a given." 
    And I'm sorry, but I don't see that as being fine. I see it as an issue. 

    The real world awaits to slap some sense into those people. 
    And then they (most of them) are going to start blaming everybody/thing but themselves. 
    (Apologies, but that's the truth.) 

    these games are not doing anyone any favors by giving them all that they want. In fact, doing the opposite. 
    To that point, and something that this discussion makes me wonder about, is it a generational thing?

    Are the people who think that such things like "death penalties = punishment" much younger, in their twenties players?

    And the players who don't think that are 40 +? Just a thought. Might not be correct.

    Well, I'm 57 and Iselin I think said he was 70 or so. We are on opposite sides here :)

    But Iselin is Canadian and I'm American! :LOL:

    I think Kylran is 70 "ish" and Iselin is in his 20's? I don't remember. but I'm 53 and I'm starting to forget things. :o
    Wrong assumption and details yet again :)
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 28,634
    Sovrath said:
    Are the people who think that such things like "death penalties = punishment" much younger, in their twenties players?

    Penalty by definition is punishment. It is not a thought based issue.

    A difference in age may factor into how a punishment is viewed, but that is far from certain. I haven't seen my twenties for quite some time and personally don't see value in penalties beyond the time wasted due to failure.
    Well, that's why I asked the question. "Could" it be generational? I don't know but it's worth exploring.
    Ancient_Exile
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 28,634
    edited May 7
    Iselin said:

    Wrong assumption and details yet again :)
    Going forward you will always be in your twenties to me  B)
    AlBQuirkyAncient_Exile
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,425
    Sovrath said:
    Iselin said:

    Wrong assumption and details yet again :)
    Going forward you will always be in your twenties to me  B)
    And you will be that old guy who always starts every sentence with "back in the good old days..." :)
    AlBQuirkyAncient_Exile
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 28,634
    Iselin said:
    Sovrath said:
    Iselin said:

    Wrong assumption and details yet again :)
    Going forward you will always be in your twenties to me  B)
    And you will be that old guy who always starts every sentence with "back in the good old days..." :)
    Back in those days a week was called a seoueniht. But you know, kids these days.
    AlBQuirky
  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 10,212
    tzervo said:
    Iselin said:
    tzervo said:

    Player A tries to find the most efficient way to get gold in a game. He finds out that way "Bla" of grinding is better. His satisfaction does not come out of the grinding act itself, but:

    1) out of figuring out the strategy: that this method is better
    2) out of the result. This is his reward and his confirmation that the effort he put into coming up with this strategy had a good result.


    Those are the alien meta gamers who have invaded my MMOs. Them and the ones who are ecstatic when a double XP event is announced :)
    Guilty of being the first, want to shoot the second :P
    I’m both?
    tzervoIselin
This discussion has been closed.