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Very Interesting Article on the Death Penalty in MMORPGs

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  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 1,830
    katzklaw said:
    Scorchien said:
    Sharne said:
    A lot of classes in EQ could solo past level 20, certain classes could just do it quicker
    Soloed to 50 in bard, ranger, and druid. It took me a long time, but then again I don't play MMOs like a race. I Enjoy the experience.

    I soloed whenever i wanted to also in EQ with Ranger and Bard to lvl cap , did most of the dungeons along the way , some pug some guild ..

      Pretty standard stuff . and EQ was not near as difficult as some like to portray it here imo
    oh, i COULD solo with my ranger... yeah... but it took so dang long and was so dang boring kiting in circles or fighting bluegreen mobs (or both)... why bother. grouping was easier. 
    That's kind of the point. Those of us who chose to level that way were not in a race to make it to cap. Did we ever group? Sure, on occasion, but we didn't spend our time sitting around waiting for a group to "optimize our time" and instead just enjoyed the game.

    It's not a brag or a show of skill, because we were no more skilled than any other player, the difference is we didn't give a shit about being first or getting to "end game". The entire game was fun and we enjoyed it.

    The point of saying this stuff is because people are saying it was "forced grouping" when it's completely false. The only one forcing you to group is yourself and the strange desire to catapult to the top as quickly as possible. This is why boring games like WoW and beyond came to fruition. They prey on that uncontrollable desire you have to be the BIGGEST AND STRONGEST AS FAST AS POSSIBLE.

    There were very few pieces of content in EQ that I would consider to actually be "forced" grouping. No one is forcing you to group for normal game play. Only you not willing to risk death and insisting on leveling as fast as  possible.
    Ancient_Exile
    "Wake up, It's RNG, there is no such thing as 'rare'"
    - Ungood
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 7,342
    Being rare and being hard to get are not always the same thing though. Taking months and months of running dungeons to get a very rare item is in my opinion harder, meaning it takes me work, than a one time only drop but could drop off any mob. 

    One requires dedicated work. The other just requires just requires playing any part of the game.

    Now I'm not saying that's what either of you are saying. Just stating my opinion regarding hard drops.

    Lol , did you read at all it drop off any mob .. lol WTF is wrong with people
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 7,342
    edited May 21
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    Ungood said:
    cheyane said:
    Thanks for the UO loot information. My earliest game was Everquest. I don't think I ever tried UO was too engrossed in Everquest for a few years. Had a very brief foray into Asheron's Call but I didn't like the game when I played it. I realise I should have tried it longer since I hear many good things about it but it was hard to pry me away from Everquest. Truly and well invested in Everquest to leave it for any other game until Anarchy Online came along. Then FFXI which was another of my early loves.

    I don't think random loot is something I would like since even if we know a certain item may drop in EQ it still could be months to get some items because I had the absolute worse luck in random groups in dungeons and lost rolls. Plus it does not drop every kill and the placeholder can spawn for hours. So it would be a bad nightmare for random loot for me.

    I also feel the easy stuff in Everquest was useful in the beginning for players to at least equip themselves. I did when I first started the dungeons. It was only later when I joined a really top guild that I got the real good drops and those were allocated via DKP.

    I enjoyed being in the guild and doing the raids. Although some took half a day it was fun to do it with friends.

    MMORPGs in my opinion unless they are based on twitch mechanics which I suck at are not difficult games at all. Don't think any of the old games are difficult they just require a lot of patience. Some of the mechanics are arguably tedious.
    Yah those loot drops, it was a Chance they could drop that, not guaranteed, so each year across the whole server there were only 52 tries for that loot, at best. That means if it dropped 10% of them, then it was only going to drop 5 of those 52 times. Which means, in a single year, across the whole server, only 5 people were going to get that item.

    That kind of open world loot drop, really made a rare item.. rare.

    As for RNG, yah, had to deal with that in Trove, the whole game was all RNG, you could spend some serious time trying to get that perfect combo, but IMHO, it was nowhere near as hard as the wat EQ set up loot drops.

    Instance dungeons made it a lot easier to get the named loot.

    Then in games like GW2, where you could craft the stat combos you wanted, pretty much made RNG a thing of the past, and after playing a game like GW2 where the crafting was viable even at the low levels, I could see the attraction to a good crafting system over all the other ways to handle loot.

    you would need a link to prove those drop rates ..

     ANd even if true when EQ had 20+ servers that would be 100 a year , lets just give the benefit of the doubt (of 10 years ) most like,ly more Thats 1000 of those swords ..No so truly rare now is it ..

     Still not even remotley close to the actual only One of a kind item that UO can produce .. One time forever .. most likely ..  More valuble for sure when it comes to dying with , and only having 7 minutes to recover if a mob did not loot it ..

     Little different than the 1 of 1000 sword that will be exactly where it fell  up to 24 hours later ..

     Which returns us to the root of the discussion

     UOs death system is much harsher.. imo and ime
    I haven't played UO, we both know this.

    But Trove also does a whole RNG thing, where you get random loot, with random stats, and you can even upgrade your gear (if you like the stats) and go so far as to add additional stats (RNG of course), thus making very unique items.

    However with RNG, by the very nature of how RNG works, nothing can be truly unique. And even if something was rare, that does not mean it has value, just because you have never seen that combo before does not mean anyone wants it, because it  could suck.

    So it is not it's rarity that makes it valuable, it's how sought after that stat combo is,  which of course, which of course with RNG, that combo has the same chance to happen as some perfect trash combo does, but that is typically how RNG works, when it is working right at least, that items only appear rare, because that is what you are looking for, and don't see value in combos that do not fit your build, or are not desired, even if they are just as unique.

    Or at least such was how things were in Trove.

    Since people told me players were collecting shit because no one had seen shit before, maybe UO players are a special breed.

    In any case, your post reminds me of this image.



    More ignornace , but its expected .. I did try to help , There are many variables ..

      Top end items will only drop from the hardest content , like an Ancient Worm for ex..

        Your post here is completely clueless , showing that you didnt not take the time to even educate yourself before drooling on your keyboard to finger out this window licking response ..


        You can get decent items off a regular dragon .. for ex.Major Magic Items are common .. Lesser Artifact have decent drop rate ..

       Legendary Arti .. thats a different story

       Also everything is useful .. they can be tweaked thru enhancing , Broken down for enhancing mats , or useful for an alt or friend .. ... etc.. What does not seem to be useless tho is your contribution here .. You have brought nothing useful to this discussion

         but under that you cannot get an Artifact , Altho you can get some decent Magic Item for leveling along the way as it should be .. But end game .. getting that perfect Legendary Arti is much harder than EQ ..

      Like i said ive dome both ... UO is far more difficult .. its not even close ..
    Gdemami
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,138
    edited May 21
    Scorchien said:
    More ignornace , but its expected .. I did try to help , There are many variables ..

      Top end items will only drop from the hardest content , like an Ancient Worm for ex..

    LOL like no duh really? The hardest mobs drop the highest tier gear.. who would have thunk it.

    Thank you for being so informative.

    Wake up, It's RNG, there is no such thing as "rare"
    Post edited by Ungood on
    GdemamiIselin
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,589
    Scorchien said:
    Being rare and being hard to get are not always the same thing though. Taking months and months of running dungeons to get a very rare item is in my opinion harder, meaning it takes me work, than a one time only drop but could drop off any mob. 

    One requires dedicated work. The other just requires just requires playing any part of the game.

    Now I'm not saying that's what either of you are saying. Just stating my opinion regarding hard drops.

    Lol , did you read at all it drop off any mob .. lol WTF is wrong with people
    Did I say you or anyone else said that? 

    I think I specifically said you are not saying this. I made a comment about rare versus hard to get.  

    Lol WTF is wrong with people.
    Ungood
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    IselintzervoAlBQuirky
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,589
    edited May 22
    Deleted. No point.
    Post edited by VengeSunsoar on
    Ungood
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 1,830
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    More ignornace , but its expected .. I did try to help , There are many variables ..

      Top end items will only drop from the hardest content , like an Ancient Worm for ex..

    LOL like no duh really? The hardest mobs drop the highest tier gear.. who would have thunk it.

    Thank you for being so informative.

    Wake up, It's RNG, there is no such thing as "rare"

     Of course there wtf is wrong with your brain ..


     LMFAO get clue shit fer brains ..

     Its hard to believe someone gets stupider with each post but here you are proving it
    Wow, you are rude.

    But you know what, lets play your dumbass game

    Ok explain to me how something is rare with RNG.. go for, because I am betting that you lack the ability to even grasp what you are saying.

    Really.. I just don't think you even know what you are talking about, so.. go for it. Explain to us all how something is rare with a full RNG loot system.



    Winning the lottery is pretty fucking rare and it's not hard to create odds worse than that.
    "Wake up, It's RNG, there is no such thing as 'rare'"
    - Ungood
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,158
    katzklaw said:
    Scorchien said:
    Sharne said:
    A lot of classes in EQ could solo past level 20, certain classes could just do it quicker
    Soloed to 50 in bard, ranger, and druid. It took me a long time, but then again I don't play MMOs like a race. I Enjoy the experience.

    I soloed whenever i wanted to also in EQ with Ranger and Bard to lvl cap , did most of the dungeons along the way , some pug some guild ..

      Pretty standard stuff . and EQ was not near as difficult as some like to portray it here imo
    oh, i COULD solo with my ranger... yeah... but it took so dang long and was so dang boring kiting in circles or fighting bluegreen mobs (or both)... why bother. grouping was easier. 
    That's kind of the point. Those of us who chose to level that way were not in a race to make it to cap. Did we ever group? Sure, on occasion, but we didn't spend our time sitting around waiting for a group to "optimize our time" and instead just enjoyed the game.

    It's not a brag or a show of skill, because we were no more skilled than any other player, the difference is we didn't give a shit about being first or getting to "end game". The entire game was fun and we enjoyed it.

    The point of saying this stuff is because people are saying it was "forced grouping" when it's completely false. The only one forcing you to group is yourself and the strange desire to catapult to the top as quickly as possible. This is why boring games like WoW and beyond came to fruition. They prey on that uncontrollable desire you have to be the BIGGEST AND STRONGEST AS FAST AS POSSIBLE.

    There were very few pieces of content in EQ that I would consider to actually be "forced" grouping. No one is forcing you to group for normal game play. Only you not willing to risk death and insisting on leveling as fast as  possible.

    I tried "soloing" with my Bards and Druids. It just wasn't fun running circles for 15 minutes or kiting for a like amount. I also was not very good at it :)
    ChildoftheShadowskatzklaw

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 1,830
    edited May 22
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    More ignornace , but its expected .. I did try to help , There are many variables ..

      Top end items will only drop from the hardest content , like an Ancient Worm for ex..

    LOL like no duh really? The hardest mobs drop the highest tier gear.. who would have thunk it.

    Thank you for being so informative.

    Wake up, It's RNG, there is no such thing as "rare"

     Of course there wtf is wrong with your brain ..


     LMFAO get clue shit fer brains ..

     Its hard to believe someone gets stupider with each post but here you are proving it
    Wow, you are rude.

    But you know what, lets play your dumbass game

    Ok explain to me how something is rare with RNG.. go for, because I am betting that you lack the ability to even grasp what you are saying.

    Really.. I just don't think you even know what you are talking about, so.. go for it. Explain to us all how something is rare with a full RNG loot system.



    Winning the lottery is pretty fucking rare and it's not hard to create odds worse than that.
    Do you have a point, or are you just going to spout how you don't understand how RNG works?
    Just proving how your argument is going nowhere. You have nothing. 

    And just to be clear it is you that does not understand random and how it's implemented into games.
    Iselin
    "Wake up, It's RNG, there is no such thing as 'rare'"
    - Ungood
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,311
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    More ignornace , but its expected .. I did try to help , There are many variables ..

      Top end items will only drop from the hardest content , like an Ancient Worm for ex..

    LOL like no duh really? The hardest mobs drop the highest tier gear.. who would have thunk it.

    Thank you for being so informative.

    Wake up, It's RNG, there is no such thing as "rare"

     Of course there wtf is wrong with your brain ..


     LMFAO get clue shit fer brains ..

     Its hard to believe someone gets stupider with each post but here you are proving it
    Wow, you are rude.

    But you know what, lets play your dumbass game

    Ok explain to me how something is rare with RNG.. go for, because I am betting that you lack the ability to even grasp what you are saying.

    Really.. I just don't think you even know what you are talking about, so.. go for it. Explain to us all how something is rare with a full RNG loot system.



    Winning the lottery is pretty fucking rare and it's not hard to create odds worse than that.
    Do you have a point, or are you just going to spout how you don't understand how RNG works?
    Just proving how your argument is going nowhere. You have nothing. 

    And just to be clear it is you that does not understand random and how it's implemented into games.

    Almost like he has no awareness whatsoever of variable rate RNG. In D3 the chance of a random legendary drop to be of the better ancient variety is 1 in 10 and the chance for it to be the best version, a Primal, is 1 in 400 which makes Primals very rare.

    RNG + rarity.... pretty simple concept really.

    Ungood
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 1,830
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    ChildoftheShadows said:
    Winning the lottery is pretty fucking rare and it's not hard to create odds worse than that.
    Do you have a point, or are you just going to spout how you don't understand how RNG works?
    Just proving how your argument is going nowhere. You have nothing. 

    And just to be clear it is you that does not understand random and how it's implemented into games.
    Last time I had to explain to you how stupid you were, you called the mods because you got butthurt and could not handle the discussion, you do not have the testicular fortitude to handle how tough you talk, so spare me and take your stupid elsewhere.
    I've never "called the mods" on anyone. Ever. I've been banned multiple times for my "testicular fortitude" so spare me the bullshit and either admit you fucked this argument or prove you know what you're talking about.
    Sure.. Sure.. that is why my post got edited in our last little exchange.

    Also dummy, the callout was to Scorchien, to explain, or are you too stupid to grasp that as well.

    But by all means, if you want to play stand in, explain how something is in fact Rare in an RNG system.

    The lottery analogy, just showed how stupid you were and how much you do not even know what you are talking about. But hey, if that is the best you got, then that is the best you got.
    When you can't explain something it means you have no understanding. Buck up or shut up. You don't even understand how the lottery is literally RNG ffs. Again, you never cease to amaze me.
    Ungood
    "Wake up, It's RNG, there is no such thing as 'rare'"
    - Ungood
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,311
    Ungood said:
    Iselin said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    More ignornace , but its expected .. I did try to help , There are many variables ..

      Top end items will only drop from the hardest content , like an Ancient Worm for ex..

    LOL like no duh really? The hardest mobs drop the highest tier gear.. who would have thunk it.

    Thank you for being so informative.

    Wake up, It's RNG, there is no such thing as "rare"

     Of course there wtf is wrong with your brain ..


     LMFAO get clue shit fer brains ..

     Its hard to believe someone gets stupider with each post but here you are proving it
    Wow, you are rude.

    But you know what, lets play your dumbass game

    Ok explain to me how something is rare with RNG.. go for, because I am betting that you lack the ability to even grasp what you are saying.

    Really.. I just don't think you even know what you are talking about, so.. go for it. Explain to us all how something is rare with a full RNG loot system.



    Winning the lottery is pretty fucking rare and it's not hard to create odds worse than that.
    Do you have a point, or are you just going to spout how you don't understand how RNG works?
    Just proving how your argument is going nowhere. You have nothing. 

    And just to be clear it is you that does not understand random and how it's implemented into games.

    Almost like he has no awareness whatsoever of variable rate RNG. In D3 the chance of a random legendary drop to be of the better ancient variety is 1 in 10 and the chance for it to be the best version, a Primal, is 1 in 400 which makes Primals very rare.

    RNG + rarity.... pretty simple concept really.

    Still just RNG, a game of numbers, nothing like the concept of a rare item in a game like EQ.

    In EQ, there was a set number of an item due to time and drop constraints, for example, A Cloak of Flames originally only dropped from Lord Nagafen, Spawned roughly once a week, with a 27% chance to drop the cloak. In a year, only 15 of those cloaks would ever exist on the server, out of thousands of players, only 15 would ever exist. Keeping to that, that would mean in that in the entire life of the Server, over 20 years, only 300 would ever happen, among hundreds of thousands of players, 300 would ever exist.

    That's rarity, in the sense there is an absolute limited number of them. RNG games do not have rarity in that sense on any level.

    RNG is still just a numbers games, keep farming and grinding, you will eventually get what you want, eventually everyone can get what they want. Just like the basic idea that if you buy enough tickets you will win the lottery. That is how RNG works.

    Equally so, the more these items get framed, the more they flood the system, the less rare all these items ultimately become, that is also how RNG works.

    That is not rarity, that is just a numbers game, often a means to build tedious grind without building any kind of real sense of uniqueness to the game.

    But no doubt, I am sure this won't sit well with you, I shall await your mindless insults.
    Limited quantity is not a requirement for something to be rare.

    All you need is variable rate: sword X has a 1 in 3 chance of dropping from boss z while sword y has a 1 in 300 chance to drop from the same boss.

    The mechanics that determine the drop is rolling a number randomly which determines whether you get sword x or sword y or something else or nothing at all. That is all that RNG means.

    No matter how many 100s of thousands of players farm the boss or how many 100s of sword y exist in the game. It would still be more rare than sword X.
    Gdemami
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 1,830
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    ChildoftheShadows said:
    Winning the lottery is pretty fucking rare and it's not hard to create odds worse than that.
    Do you have a point, or are you just going to spout how you don't understand how RNG works?
    Just proving how your argument is going nowhere. You have nothing. 

    And just to be clear it is you that does not understand random and how it's implemented into games.
    Last time I had to explain to you how stupid you were, you called the mods because you got butthurt and could not handle the discussion, you do not have the testicular fortitude to handle how tough you talk, so spare me and take your stupid elsewhere.
    I've never "called the mods" on anyone. Ever. I've been banned multiple times for my "testicular fortitude" so spare me the bullshit and either admit you fucked this argument or prove you know what you're talking about.
    Sure.. Sure.. that is why my post got edited in our last little exchange.

    Also dummy, the callout was to Scorchien, to explain, or are you too stupid to grasp that as well.

    But by all means, if you want to play stand in, explain how something is in fact Rare in an RNG system.

    The lottery analogy, just showed how stupid you were and how much you do not even know what you are talking about. But hey, if that is the best you got, then that is the best you got.
    When you can't explain something it means you have no understanding. Buck up or shut up. You don't even understand how the lottery is literally RNG ffs. Again, you never cease to amaze me.
    No shit dumbass, so explain to me how something can be rare in an RNG system?

    I don't think you can, because either, you are too stupid to even grasp what you are talking about, or just realized how wrong you are, and now trying to save face.

    But hell, lets have some fun showing you how stupid you are.

    Lets go with a basic RNG loot system. Simply set up, there are various stat combos that are controlled by RNG, and as a player, you might be looking for a specific combo of stats for your build. 

    Let's say for the sake of keeping this simple, you are hunting Artifact Gear, so farming mobs that drop it. For the sake of just being simple so your small mind might be able to handle this, lets say, Their are 1 million stat combos that can be made. So, now you say, your ideal combo is 1 in a Million Chance. No doubt at this point, you are going to say something impossibly stupid, like that makes it Rare, right? Wrong Imbecile!

    It's RNG, Every Single Item is a 1 in a Million Item, regardless if it was what you are looking for or not, every single item has the exact same rarity. That is how RNG works..

    Was that too complex for you to grasp, do I need to break out the crayons and try again? Maybe get some orange slices to keep you occupied while you ignore everything I just said because your ego won't be able to handle being wrong, and you will just hurl insults at this point?

    By the way, Love the Sig.. keep it.. Hopefully link it to this discussion as well. ;)
    All you're doing in your scenario is shifting the rarity from the item to the stats themselves. So The Greatsword of Mind-numbing Insanity drops pretty frequently, but the stats are all different, like you said. So is the "Greatsword of Mind-numbing Insanity" rare? Pfft, no of course not, everyone is looting one every few minutes, but getting one with stats that are worth a shit? That's what is rare. You're just looking at the wrong things. It's still a rarity. 

    OMG I got a Greatsword of Mind-numbing Insanity with +10 in all stats! SELLING FOR 5 billion gold! ONLY ONE IN GAME EVER!

    How do most games create rarity using RNG (including Everquest) you ask? Drop rates. See, when a monster dies; each loot item, or at least the ones that are not suppose to drop every time, have a drop rate, or a drop "chance". This is the same thing as rolling a D20 in D&D. The difference is the system rolls a random number for you instead of you rolling the die, and if that random number (typically between 0 and 1) is greater (or lower depending on how they wanted to develop it) than the specified chance then the item drops.

    If the Sword of Mindnumbing Insanity has a drop chance delta of 0.99998 and he spawns no more than once every half hour, or maybe 1 hour, 5 hours, once per day, once a month?! you're going to be lucky to find that weapon. That is a rare item. Brought to you by RNG.

    Notice I said even Everquest uses RNG. Don't believe me? You posted it yourself in one of your more recent replies:
    Ungood said:
    ...In EQ, there was a set number of an item due to time and drop constraints, for example, A Cloak of Flames originally only dropped from Lord Nagafen, Spawned roughly once a week, with a 27% chance to drop the cloak...
    How do you suppose they calculated the drop? RNG. IF, big IF, the chance was actually 27% then I can bet you there was a huge delay between spawns as well.

    Everything in games is fabricated and using random numbers aka "rolling the dice" is always going to be a factor somewhere to help control the flow of items and to create the truly rare pieces.
    Scorchientzervo
    "Wake up, It's RNG, there is no such thing as 'rare'"
    - Ungood
  • katzklawkatzklaw Member UncommonPosts: 85
    loooool. RNG. you could have 1 of them, or you could have hundreds of them. it's RANDOM. it's all rare, and it's all not.

    it's not a "rare" item. but whateva
    UngoodGdemami
  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • lahnmirlahnmir Member LegendaryPosts: 3,530
    I guess there is a message in the links you provided, but I am waaaay to important and awesome to read them  :*

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...



    'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless. 

    It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.

    It is just huge resource waste....'

    Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer

  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 10,149
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:

    You are really not understanding the UO loot table .. Of course Not all items are Unique , what a silly thing to say..

      What we were discussing is hard to get gear .. Not the easy stuff which EQ has its buckets full of ..

      UO loot Table will pull on death a certain Number of properties on it , dependent upoun many things and its a Random Loot Generator , which makes it really very interesting with the outcome ..

     I personally really enjoy the Random Loot apporach makes hunting fun , you never know what may drop , also why i enjoyed Asherons Call so much ..    Random Loot

       But getting that perfect piece you are looking for can take far longer than a mere 7 days ..  COuld take 7 weeks and you still may not get what you hope for, But there is alsao the chance something better than you could have imagined drop .. .. ..IN EQ you know exactly where to go and what will drop ..

        Now you may get close and can enhance the gear to better suit you ... But its still much more effort in UO to put together a full set for your build than EQ ..  Ive played both to end game and done both .. this is my opinion..

      Here are the bones of UOs Loot Table... Which can produce Truly Unique items , You can get something that is actually Epic/Unique/Legendary call what you will but you will be the only person with it .. Unlike EQ where there 50,000 of that same Legendary Sword floating about..


    @ChildoftheShadows Here you go, I figured I would provide it for you, since I don't think you have the skills to look it up yourself, since you missed it the first time.

    You can see Scorchien changed his tune when called on things being unique, or even rare, and what have you, and this shoots down both your points and Iselin.

    Enjoy the read.. might want to get a clue next time before you shoot off your mouth., or don't, After all, it's you looking like the moron, I don't care either way, in fact, I find you stupidly funny, and your ego to boot makes you hilarious.

  • tzervotzervo Member RarePosts: 324
    edited May 23
    Ungood said:

    Let's say for the sake of keeping this simple, you are hunting Artifact Gear, so farming mobs that drop it. Their are 1 million stat combos that can be made. So, now you say, your ideal combo is 1 in a Million Chance. Every Single Item is a 1 in a Million Item, regardless if it was what you are looking for or not, every single item has the exact same rarity
    Edited out the naughty words from the quote for clarity.

    Assume Artifact gear has a 100% percent chance of dropping, and any of the 1 in a million stat combos have equal value and equal chance (0.0001%) then the artifact gear is not rare, everyone killing the mob is guaranteed to have it, but an artifact gear with particular stats is rare (1 in a million). If you judge rarity by the stats, you just created an example where all the possible million gear pieces are equally very rare.

    Lets give it a twist and compare it to your example with the Whatsamacallit Cloak from the Naglaguy. 27% drop rate, one roll in a week. Assume 10 players hack the boss, all equal chance of getting it. Chance to get the Whatsamacallit Cloak is 2.7%, single roll.

    Assume another player going for the artifact gear with a particular stat combination. Mobs spawn that drop it once per hour. 168 hours per week (he is a stinky 24/7 no-lifer), so 168 rolls with 10^-6 chance. This is called Bernoulli's trials:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernoulli_trial

    k=1 (I want 1 success, want to get the item once)
    n=168 (168 rolls)
    p=10^-6 (one in a million, probability of success)
    q=1-10^-6 (probability of failure)

    P(1)=(168 1)*10^-6*(1-10^-6)^167=0.000168=0.0168% chance of success.

    So, any artifact gear would not be rare, the 2nd player already got 168 of them. But the artifact with the particular stat is much rarer than the Whatsamacallit cloak.

    One final point I wanted to make, both drop rates (probability of success) and frequency of boss spawn (rolls) contribute to the rarity of an item, they are both there in Bernoulli's trials math.

    Let me know if I missed anything. Don't care if it is still off-topic, this was a fun exercise :)
    GdemamibcbullyUngood
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,071
    edited May 23
    Ungood said:
    I can not get down to your level of stupid
    ...true, you made it already way below, and that's something.

    It's simple.

    Rarity is a quantifier of relative distribution - how many of the same items there are within an item category.

    RNG loot is a way how to affect an item distribution - there will be less items present with lower chance to drop than those with higher chance.

    Since RNG is essentially a supply restriction, it will as well affect price of the item - goods in lower supply will price higher over items with higher supply.

    You could argue that if everyone in the game is wearing the rarest items make them no longer rare but that would be a false argument - rarity isn't an attribute of demand, it is an attribute of supply.

    Post edited by Gdemami on
    tzervobcbullyUngood
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,138
    edited May 23
    tzervo said:
    Ungood said:

    Let's say for the sake of keeping this simple, you are hunting Artifact Gear, so farming mobs that drop it. Their are 1 million stat combos that can be made. So, now you say, your ideal combo is 1 in a Million Chance. Every Single Item is a 1 in a Million Item, regardless if it was what you are looking for or not, every single item has the exact same rarity
    Edited out the naughty words from the quote for clarity.

    Assume Artifact gear has a 100% percent chance of dropping, and any of the 1 in a million stat combos have equal value and equal chance (0.0001%) then the artifact gear is not rare, everyone killing the mob is guaranteed to have it, but an artifact gear with particular stats is rare (1 in a million). If you judge rarity by the stats, you just created an example where all the possible million gear pieces are equally very rare.

    Lets give it a twist and compare it to your example with the Whatsamacallit Cloak from the Naglaguy. 27% drop rate, one roll in a week. Assume 10 players hack the boss, all equal chance of getting it. Chance to get the Whatsamacallit Cloak is 2.7%, single roll.

    Assume another player going for the artifact gear with a particular stat combination. Mobs spawn that drop it once per hour. 168 hours per week (he is a stinky 24/7 no-lifer), so 168 rolls with 10^-6 chance. This is called Bernoulli's trials:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernoulli_trial

    k=1 (I want 1 success, want to get the item once)
    n=168 (168 rolls)
    p=10^-6 (one in a million, probability of success)
    q=1-10^-6 (probability of failure)

    P(1)=(168 1)*10^-6*(1-10^-6)^167=0.000168=0.0168% chance of success.

    So, any artifact gear would not be rare, the 2nd player already got 168 of them. But the artifact with the particular stat is much rarer than the Whatsamacallit cloak.

    One final point I wanted to make, both drop rates (probability of success) and frequency of boss spawn (rolls) contribute to the rarity of an item, they are both there in Bernoulli's trials math.

    Let me know if I missed anything. Don't care if it is still off-topic, this was a fun exercise :)
    Ok a well reasoned argument, so I will give this a response.

    Just to clear something up. Regarding the Cloak of Flames, The chest is single roll, so it does not matter if 10 or a 100 or a 1,000, people engaged in the Raid, the chest has a 27% chance to have a cloak in it.

    That means, regardless of how many people killed Naggy, if the cloak showed up, only 1 of them would get it. Ideally, this means the more people that kill Naggy, the less chance you have of being the person that gets the cloak to start with, and thus the idea of DKP to earn the right to loot the cloak, IF it drops.

    In that venture you do not have a 2.7% chance to get the cloak, the cloak has a 27% chance to exist in the chest, and your chances of getting it are a totally different factor.

    As far as the RNG loot system goes, there is no reason for 'the mob' to be a one hour timer, as with RNG systems like that, it's a tier of mob all of which can drop this loot. IE: All Elder Wurms drop Artifact or Better.

    As such the only delay in killing is the speed by which a player can kill them to keep rolling for the loot they are looking for, ergo some players will be able to kill them faster, if they work in teams, they will be able to augment this number exponentially. 

    However, None of this really matters to our direct discussion, as you have already address my point, and agreed with me when you said.

    So, any artifact gear would not be rare

    Which was exactly my point.

    We could stop here, and call it done, since we agree.

    But you talk about personal value, this is not to be confused with the direct rarity of an item.

    Due to it being RNG system, all various combinations of Artifact gear are of equal rarity, we agreed upon this already, as such, regardless if a combination is viewed as coveted or vendor trash, they all have the same chance to happen, they are all that proveriable 1 in a million item.

    It's value to the player is purely a matter of personal taste and has no bearing on its rarity or chance to exist.

    Just like rolling a d20.

    All too often we put way too much emphasis on the 20 or the 1 result.  With 20 being the most coveted roll desired, and 1 being the least desired.

    But it's all just RNG. Any result has the same chance to happen, and we both understand this.

    And that was my whole point, the 17 is no more or less rare then the 4, or the 20, or the 1, and thus no result is more or less rare then another, even if one specific result is desired.

    In contrast to that, getting The cloak of Flames (As in there is only one of its kind), and when you open the Dragon chest, it is like, I would say, spinning a wheel of fortune, that has a series of loot on it, and 63% of the time you won't get the cloak, which makes getting that cloak, directly a rare drop from that chest.

    As it seems we already do agree on this subject, have you thought to wonder why some people are disagreeing with me?

    Have a great day.
    Post edited by Ungood on
    Gdemamitzervobcbully
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,071
    edited May 23
    Ungood said:
    I mean, it's built off a wrong premise
    ...yeah, and that premise is yours.

    Again, the value(demand) is irrelevant - it is the the rarity that affect the value, not the other way round(your erroneous argument).

    Ungood said:
    That is how RNG works.

    The results we didn't want are not any more or less rare then the results we do want
    ....oh dear.

    That is not how RNG works.

    There is 19 posibble results(19:1) you get something you do not want vs 1 possibility(1:20) of something you want.

    Yeah, the chance you get what you want is much lower than a chance you get what you don't want.

    Post edited by Gdemami on
    Ungood
  • kitaradkitarad Member EpicPosts: 5,847
    Not trying to get into the middle of this but what is the random chance in UO? Is 1 in 10000 or 1 in 100 the RNG ? Since this debate right now seems to be between Everquest and UO. So what this RNG in UO to get a rare you want?

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,138
    Gdemami said:
    Ungood said:
    I mean, it's built off a wrong premise
    ...yeah, and that premise is yours.

    Again, the value(demand) is irrelevant - it is the the rarity that affect the value, not the other way round(your erroneous argument).
    Are you sure about that?
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
This discussion has been closed.