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Very Interesting Article on the Death Penalty in MMORPGs

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  • cheyanecheyane Member EpicPosts: 7,227
    edited May 19
    The whole luxury goods industry is based on the consumer wanting that item to impress their neighbours.

    How do you think game companies are so successful in building the myth of 'must have' items and legendary, epic and whatever they name the armour, weapons and other items of imaginary value.

    They have studied exactly what makes people stay and play their games and even if you may think it isn't the right motivation or it is destructive, I doubt this is even a consideration. All the P2W in games especially PvP is built on the concept of achievement often at whatever cost deemed acceptable to a select few just as it is in real life.

    We are straying from the topic my apologies, I was merely explaining why the death penalty in Everquest was so effective when we got side tracked.

    Edited for spelling
    Post edited by cheyane on
    tzervoGdemamiScotUngoodAlBQuirky
    Martens: "With all due respect, madam, where are you going with this?"
    Avasarala: "Wherever I goddamn like."
  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    cheyane said:
    The whole luxury goods industry is based on the consumer wanting that item to impress their neighbours.

    How do you think game companies are so successful in building the myth of 'must have' items and legendary, epic and whatever they name the armour, weapons and other items of imaginary value.

    They have studied exactly what makes people stay and play their games and even if you may think it isn't the right motivation or it is destructive, I doubt this is even a consideration. All the P2W in games especially PvP is built on the concept of achievement often at whatever cost deemed acceptable to a select few just as it is in real life.

    We are straying from the topic my apologies, I was merely explaining why the death penalty in Everquest was so effective when we got side tracked.

    Edited for spelling

    "'Skinner box' redirects here..."

    "Purpose...An operant conditioning chamber permits experimenters to study behavior conditioning (training) by teaching a subject animal to perform certain actions (like pressing a lever) in response to specific stimuli, such as a light or sound signal. When the subject correctly performs the behavior, the chamber mechanism delivers food or other reward. In some cases, the mechanism delivers a punishment for incorrect or missing responses."

    https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-a-skinner-box-2795875

    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,221
    cheyane said:
    The whole luxury goods industry is based on the consumer wanting that item to impress their neighbours.

    How do you think game companies are so successful in building the myth of 'must have' items and legendary, epic and whatever they name the armour, weapons and other items of imaginary value.

    They have studied exactly what makes people stay and play their games and even if you may think it isn't the right motivation or it is destructive, I doubt this is even a consideration. All the P2W in games especially PvP is built on the concept of achievement often at whatever cost deemed acceptable to a select few just as it is in real life.

    We are straying from the topic my apologies, I was merely explaining why the death penalty in Everquest was so effective when we got side tracked.

    Edited for spelling
    I was thinking, that a lot of early games simply built off the idea of fables and legends of hero's having their iconic weapons, items, armors, totems, etc, this is something that has been built into the fantasy/sci-fi genre for centuries and still continues today.

    To use an example: Excalibur, is a legendary weapon, that if playing in a game about Arthur Legend, every gamer would want to be the one to get this legendary weapon, even if their name was XXbobXX.
    AlBQuirky
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,354
    I always thought people want gear to do harder content or be more efficient in farming and grinding.

    Until I play GW2 and wonder why everyone are playing dress up.  Apparently many people care about how they look.
    UngoodAlBQuirky
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,221
    AAAMEOW said:
    I always thought people want gear to do harder content or be more efficient in farming and grinding.

    Until I play GW2 and wonder why everyone are playing dress up.  Apparently many people care about how they look.
    Having better gear is the idea for the games that are set up to work in that direction.

    Various games have various motives for their gear system, and cosmetics have always been a thing in MMO's.


    AlBQuirky
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • SharneSharne Member UncommonPosts: 194
    cheyane said:
    cheyane said:
    I especially loved it when Fancy charmed the Priest of Discord.

    Sounds interesting.  Please elaborate.
    You never played Everquest ? I never played on a PvP server but when I played everyone I knew who played Everquest knew who Fansy was.

    Sorry Fansy not Fancy. It was a play on pansy the name.

    Sullon Zek where there were mainly evil aligned players was synonymous to scum and villainy but there was one rule you cannot kill a level 5 player. He was a bard or troubadour as he called himself and he was level 5 but he was armed with Selo Accelerendo a level 5 song that speeds your movement. So he trained a whole bunch of Sand Giants on players but only those players he had talked to and although always polite he would annoy them enough or deem them evil and kill them. Of course after awhile they were on to him but he was level 5 so they could not kill him.

    He also managed to charm the Priest of Discord in Riverdale and set him to attack all the players in Riverdale.

    Mind you when you die in Everquest you can lose a lot of experience. Experience you might need days to grind back up so needless to say he pissed off a lot of players.
    Ahh the exploits of Fansy lol


    https://www.notacult.com/fansythefamous.htm

    For me the death penalty in EQ was perfect for an MMO, it forced people to group, socialise and join guilds
    AlBQuirky
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,221
    Sharne said:
    cheyane said:
    cheyane said:
    I especially loved it when Fancy charmed the Priest of Discord.

    Sounds interesting.  Please elaborate.
    You never played Everquest ? I never played on a PvP server but when I played everyone I knew who played Everquest knew who Fansy was.

    Sorry Fansy not Fancy. It was a play on pansy the name.

    Sullon Zek where there were mainly evil aligned players was synonymous to scum and villainy but there was one rule you cannot kill a level 5 player. He was a bard or troubadour as he called himself and he was level 5 but he was armed with Selo Accelerendo a level 5 song that speeds your movement. So he trained a whole bunch of Sand Giants on players but only those players he had talked to and although always polite he would annoy them enough or deem them evil and kill them. Of course after awhile they were on to him but he was level 5 so they could not kill him.

    He also managed to charm the Priest of Discord in Riverdale and set him to attack all the players in Riverdale.

    Mind you when you die in Everquest you can lose a lot of experience. Experience you might need days to grind back up so needless to say he pissed off a lot of players.
    Ahh the exploits of Fansy lol


    https://www.notacult.com/fansythefamous.htm

    For me the death penalty in EQ was perfect for an MMO, it forced people to group, socialise and join guilds
    and here I thought the inability to solo anything past 20th was what forced people to "socialize and group" it also made life very hard if you didn't have a static.

    Which also explained the massive number of Druids and Necros' in EQ.
    AlBQuirky
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • SharneSharne Member UncommonPosts: 194
    Ungood said:
    Sharne said:
    cheyane said:
    cheyane said:
    I especially loved it when Fancy charmed the Priest of Discord.

    Sounds interesting.  Please elaborate.
    You never played Everquest ? I never played on a PvP server but when I played everyone I knew who played Everquest knew who Fansy was.

    Sorry Fansy not Fancy. It was a play on pansy the name.

    Sullon Zek where there were mainly evil aligned players was synonymous to scum and villainy but there was one rule you cannot kill a level 5 player. He was a bard or troubadour as he called himself and he was level 5 but he was armed with Selo Accelerendo a level 5 song that speeds your movement. So he trained a whole bunch of Sand Giants on players but only those players he had talked to and although always polite he would annoy them enough or deem them evil and kill them. Of course after awhile they were on to him but he was level 5 so they could not kill him.

    He also managed to charm the Priest of Discord in Riverdale and set him to attack all the players in Riverdale.

    Mind you when you die in Everquest you can lose a lot of experience. Experience you might need days to grind back up so needless to say he pissed off a lot of players.
    Ahh the exploits of Fansy lol


    https://www.notacult.com/fansythefamous.htm

    For me the death penalty in EQ was perfect for an MMO, it forced people to group, socialise and join guilds
    and here I thought the inability to solo anything past 20th was what forced people to "socialize and group" it also made life very hard if you didn't have a static.

    Which also explained the massive number of Druids and Necros' in EQ.
    A lot of classes in EQ could solo past level 20, certain classes could just do it quicker
    AlBQuirky
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 1,896
    Sharne said:
    Ungood said:
    Sharne said:
    cheyane said:
    cheyane said:
    I especially loved it when Fancy charmed the Priest of Discord.

    Sounds interesting.  Please elaborate.
    You never played Everquest ? I never played on a PvP server but when I played everyone I knew who played Everquest knew who Fansy was.

    Sorry Fansy not Fancy. It was a play on pansy the name.

    Sullon Zek where there were mainly evil aligned players was synonymous to scum and villainy but there was one rule you cannot kill a level 5 player. He was a bard or troubadour as he called himself and he was level 5 but he was armed with Selo Accelerendo a level 5 song that speeds your movement. So he trained a whole bunch of Sand Giants on players but only those players he had talked to and although always polite he would annoy them enough or deem them evil and kill them. Of course after awhile they were on to him but he was level 5 so they could not kill him.

    He also managed to charm the Priest of Discord in Riverdale and set him to attack all the players in Riverdale.

    Mind you when you die in Everquest you can lose a lot of experience. Experience you might need days to grind back up so needless to say he pissed off a lot of players.
    Ahh the exploits of Fansy lol


    https://www.notacult.com/fansythefamous.htm

    For me the death penalty in EQ was perfect for an MMO, it forced people to group, socialise and join guilds
    and here I thought the inability to solo anything past 20th was what forced people to "socialize and group" it also made life very hard if you didn't have a static.

    Which also explained the massive number of Druids and Necros' in EQ.
    A lot of classes in EQ could solo past level 20, certain classes could just do it quicker
    Soloed to 50 in bard, ranger, and druid. It took me a long time, but then again I don't play MMOs like a race. I Enjoy the experience.
    AlBQuirky
    "Wake up, It's RNG, there is no such thing as 'rare'"
    - Ungood
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 7,368
    Sharne said:
    Ungood said:
    Sharne said:
    cheyane said:
    cheyane said:
    I especially loved it when Fancy charmed the Priest of Discord.

    Sounds interesting.  Please elaborate.
    You never played Everquest ? I never played on a PvP server but when I played everyone I knew who played Everquest knew who Fansy was.

    Sorry Fansy not Fancy. It was a play on pansy the name.

    Sullon Zek where there were mainly evil aligned players was synonymous to scum and villainy but there was one rule you cannot kill a level 5 player. He was a bard or troubadour as he called himself and he was level 5 but he was armed with Selo Accelerendo a level 5 song that speeds your movement. So he trained a whole bunch of Sand Giants on players but only those players he had talked to and although always polite he would annoy them enough or deem them evil and kill them. Of course after awhile they were on to him but he was level 5 so they could not kill him.

    He also managed to charm the Priest of Discord in Riverdale and set him to attack all the players in Riverdale.

    Mind you when you die in Everquest you can lose a lot of experience. Experience you might need days to grind back up so needless to say he pissed off a lot of players.
    Ahh the exploits of Fansy lol


    https://www.notacult.com/fansythefamous.htm

    For me the death penalty in EQ was perfect for an MMO, it forced people to group, socialise and join guilds
    and here I thought the inability to solo anything past 20th was what forced people to "socialize and group" it also made life very hard if you didn't have a static.

    Which also explained the massive number of Druids and Necros' in EQ.
    A lot of classes in EQ could solo past level 20, certain classes could just do it quicker
    Soloed to 50 in bard, ranger, and druid. It took me a long time, but then again I don't play MMOs like a race. I Enjoy the experience.

    I soloed whenever i wanted to also in EQ with Ranger and Bard to lvl cap , did most of the dungeons along the way , some pug some guild ..

      Pretty standard stuff . and EQ was not near as difficult as some like to portray it here imo
  • alkarionlogalkarionlog Member EpicPosts: 3,378
    cheyane said:
    The whole luxury goods industry is based on the consumer wanting that item to impress their neighbours.

    How do you think game companies are so successful in building the myth of 'must have' items and legendary, epic and whatever they name the armour, weapons and other items of imaginary value.

    They have studied exactly what makes people stay and play their games and even if you may think it isn't the right motivation or it is destructive, I doubt this is even a consideration. All the P2W in games especially PvP is built on the concept of achievement often at whatever cost deemed acceptable to a select few just as it is in real life.

    We are straying from the topic my apologies, I was merely explaining why the death penalty in Everquest was so effective when we got side tracked.

    Edited for spelling

    what make people stay around games are otehr people, I can tell a lot more about times I staid in games I was kinda tired just because of guilds I was in, at the same time, teh games I was alone I moved pretty fast and soon, course there was always that game then is so bad even with guilds and people you still move on, but that is not really the rule

    normally the clashy good gear is behind a group content wall, only way for you to get it is if you go in together, doing so keep people around, why you think they love to make raids? if you make bots to work the script you could just let then do the whole thing.

    so again the amount you spend in the game will not make you stay its always people, I could also mention I know a lot of people who spend over 10k in said game in a month to gear and lvl his char to drop said game in the next month
    FOR HONOR, FOR FREEDOM.... and for some money.
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 1,896
    Scorchien said:
    Sharne said:
    Ungood said:
    Sharne said:
    cheyane said:
    cheyane said:
    I especially loved it when Fancy charmed the Priest of Discord.

    Sounds interesting.  Please elaborate.
    You never played Everquest ? I never played on a PvP server but when I played everyone I knew who played Everquest knew who Fansy was.

    Sorry Fansy not Fancy. It was a play on pansy the name.

    Sullon Zek where there were mainly evil aligned players was synonymous to scum and villainy but there was one rule you cannot kill a level 5 player. He was a bard or troubadour as he called himself and he was level 5 but he was armed with Selo Accelerendo a level 5 song that speeds your movement. So he trained a whole bunch of Sand Giants on players but only those players he had talked to and although always polite he would annoy them enough or deem them evil and kill them. Of course after awhile they were on to him but he was level 5 so they could not kill him.

    He also managed to charm the Priest of Discord in Riverdale and set him to attack all the players in Riverdale.

    Mind you when you die in Everquest you can lose a lot of experience. Experience you might need days to grind back up so needless to say he pissed off a lot of players.
    Ahh the exploits of Fansy lol


    https://www.notacult.com/fansythefamous.htm

    For me the death penalty in EQ was perfect for an MMO, it forced people to group, socialise and join guilds
    and here I thought the inability to solo anything past 20th was what forced people to "socialize and group" it also made life very hard if you didn't have a static.

    Which also explained the massive number of Druids and Necros' in EQ.
    A lot of classes in EQ could solo past level 20, certain classes could just do it quicker
    Soloed to 50 in bard, ranger, and druid. It took me a long time, but then again I don't play MMOs like a race. I Enjoy the experience.

    I soloed whenever i wanted to also in EQ with Ranger and Bard to lvl cap , did most of the dungeons along the way , some pug some guild ..

      Pretty standard stuff . and EQ was not near as difficult as some like to portray it here imo
    This is a large reason I don't like modern (wow and beyond) MMOs. They're so easy it's boring.
    Scorchien
    "Wake up, It's RNG, there is no such thing as 'rare'"
    - Ungood
  • tzervotzervo Member RarePosts: 507
    edited May 20
    AAAMEOW said:
    I always thought people want gear to do harder content or be more efficient in farming and grinding.

    Until I play GW2 and wonder why everyone are playing dress up.  Apparently many people care about how they look.
    OT, but cosmetics can be more than dress-up in horizontal progression MMO's. It can be a displayable achievement. Think legendary armor in GW2. It does not give bigger stats. But it shows that you consistently and repeatedly cleared the most challenging content the game has to offer (assuming you did not "buy" yourself though it, which is another big discussion).

    The equivalent piece in WoW shows an achievement... until the next expac or reset happens, then it means nothing. The eternal treadmill invalidates so many things that the player has done in the past.
    Gdemami
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 7,368
    cheyane said:
    The whole luxury goods industry is based on the consumer wanting that item to impress their neighbours.

    How do you think game companies are so successful in building the myth of 'must have' items and legendary, epic and whatever they name the armour, weapons and other items of imaginary value.

    They have studied exactly what makes people stay and play their games and even if you may think it isn't the right motivation or it is destructive, I doubt this is even a consideration. All the P2W in games especially PvP is built on the concept of achievement often at whatever cost deemed acceptable to a select few just as it is in real life.

    We are straying from the topic my apologies, I was merely explaining why the death penalty in Everquest was so effective when we got side tracked.

    Edited for spelling

    its not Epic or Legendary if everybody has one , which ends up being the case for the most part these days..

     
    tzervo
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,221
    Yes.. yes.. of course you soloed a (Insert class) to cap, and did every content the game had to offer, including killing the epic unkillable boss with a blindfold on while reading shakespeare, blah.. blah.. blah..

    I totally believe people when they say stuff like that by the way.. No.. No.. really.. I do, like totally believe it when people say things like that, you don't have to repeat yourself, I heard you the first time and it was enough for me.


    So.. about those death pens, that obviously people who are just so epic would never know anything about.. 
    AlBQuirky
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • katzklawkatzklaw Member UncommonPosts: 85
    Scorchien said:
    Sharne said:
    A lot of classes in EQ could solo past level 20, certain classes could just do it quicker
    Soloed to 50 in bard, ranger, and druid. It took me a long time, but then again I don't play MMOs like a race. I Enjoy the experience.

    I soloed whenever i wanted to also in EQ with Ranger and Bard to lvl cap , did most of the dungeons along the way , some pug some guild ..

      Pretty standard stuff . and EQ was not near as difficult as some like to portray it here imo
    oh, i COULD solo with my ranger... yeah... but it took so dang long and was so dang boring kiting in circles or fighting bluegreen mobs (or both)... why bother. grouping was easier. 
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 7,368
    edited May 20
    cheyane said:
    I'm not saying this is true for every PvE player but part of the appeal is getting that item or spending a lot of time and effort obtaining that epic. Some of the camps like cleric is 7 real time days of camping the mob spawn for the required item to drop and other players seeing it will recognize that effort.

     It is part of the pride and acknowledgement. If all the items in UO are unique so how does one tell if it is special or does that not matter.

    You have to buy into the idea of obtaining the gear for it to matter. That is how gear dependence works and the whole system depends on people grinding and obtaining them. 

    You are really not understanding the UO loot table .. Of course Not all items are Unique , what a silly thing to say..

      What we were discussing is hard to get gear .. Not the easy stuff which EQ has its buckets full of ..

      UO loot Table will pull on death a certain Number of properties on it , dependent upoun many things and its a Random Loot Generator , which makes it really very interesting with the outcome ..

     I personally really enjoy the Random Loot apporach makes hunting fun , you never know what may drop , also why i enjoyed Asherons Call so much ..    Random Loot

       But getting that perfect piece you are looking for can take far longer than a mere 7 days ..  COuld take 7 weeks and you still may not get what you hope for, But there is alsao the chance something better than you could have imagined drop .. .. ..IN EQ you know exactly where to go and what will drop ..

        Now you may get close and can enhance the gear to better suit you ... But its still much more effort in UO to put together a full set for your build than EQ ..  Ive played both to end game and done both .. this is my opinion..

      Here are the bones of UOs Loot Table... Which can produce Truly Unique items , You can get something that is actually Epic/Unique/Legendary call what you will but you will be the only person with it .. Unlike EQ where there 50,000 of that same Legendary Sword floating about..


  • cheyanecheyane Member EpicPosts: 7,227
    edited May 20
    Thanks for the UO loot information. My earliest game was Everquest. I don't think I ever tried UO was too engrossed in Everquest for a few years. Had a very brief foray into Asheron's Call but I didn't like the game when I played it. I realise I should have tried it longer since I hear many good things about it but it was hard to pry me away from Everquest. Truly and well invested in Everquest to leave it for any other game until Anarchy Online came along. Then FFXI which was another of my early loves.

    I don't think random loot is something I would like since even if we know a certain item may drop in EQ it still could be months to get some items because I had the absolute worse luck in random groups in dungeons and lost rolls. Plus it does not drop every kill and the placeholder can spawn for hours. So it would be a bad nightmare for random loot for me.

    I also feel the easy stuff in Everquest was useful in the beginning for players to at least equip themselves. I did when I first started the dungeons. It was only later when I joined a really top guild that I got the real good drops and those were allocated via DKP.

    I enjoyed being in the guild and doing the raids. Although some took half a day it was fun to do it with friends.

    MMORPGs in my opinion unless they are based on twitch mechanics which I suck at are not difficult games at all. Don't think any of the old games are difficult they just require a lot of patience. Some of the mechanics are arguably tedious.
    ScorchienAlBQuirky
    Martens: "With all due respect, madam, where are you going with this?"
    Avasarala: "Wherever I goddamn like."
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 7,368
    edited May 20
    cheyane said:
    Thanks for the UO loot information. My earliest game was Everquest. I don't think I ever tried UO was too engrossed in Everquest for a few years. Had a very brief foray into Asheron's Call but I didn't like the game when I played it. I realise I should have tried it longer since I hear many good things about it but it was hard to pry me away from Everquest. Truly and well invested in Everquest to leave it for any other game until Anarchy Online came along. Then FFXI which was another of my early loves.

    I don't think random loot is something I would like since even if we know a certain item may drop in EQ it still could be months to get some items because I had the absolute worse luck in random groups in dungeons and lost rolls. Plus it does not drop every kill and the placeholder can spawn for hours. So it would be a bad nightmare for random loot for me.

    I also feel the easy stuff in Everquest was useful in the beginning for players to at least equip themselves. I did when I first started the dungeons. It was only later when I joined a really top guild that I got the real good drops and those were allocated via DKP.

    I enjoyed being in the guild and doing the raids. Although some took half a day it was fun to do it with friends.

    MMORPGs in my opinion unless they are based on twitch mechanics which I suck at are not difficult games at all. Don't think any of the old games are difficult they just require a lot of patience. Some of the mechanics are arguably tedious.

    Boy AO is still one of my favorites an AC of course such great games , shame AC had to shutter its better than most MMOS out today , I do get the EQ love was a point when i was really enjoying myself , had a solid guild and friends playing ,people moved on i went back to UO and AC most likely ..

      You must be really fast on your fast on your  feet and your mind  for UO , more so IMO than so called twitch games .. I ve tried them all ..


      Side note i hate DKP :)
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,221
    cheyane said:
    Thanks for the UO loot information. My earliest game was Everquest. I don't think I ever tried UO was too engrossed in Everquest for a few years. Had a very brief foray into Asheron's Call but I didn't like the game when I played it. I realise I should have tried it longer since I hear many good things about it but it was hard to pry me away from Everquest. Truly and well invested in Everquest to leave it for any other game until Anarchy Online came along. Then FFXI which was another of my early loves.

    I don't think random loot is something I would like since even if we know a certain item may drop in EQ it still could be months to get some items because I had the absolute worse luck in random groups in dungeons and lost rolls. Plus it does not drop every kill and the placeholder can spawn for hours. So it would be a bad nightmare for random loot for me.

    I also feel the easy stuff in Everquest was useful in the beginning for players to at least equip themselves. I did when I first started the dungeons. It was only later when I joined a really top guild that I got the real good drops and those were allocated via DKP.

    I enjoyed being in the guild and doing the raids. Although some took half a day it was fun to do it with friends.

    MMORPGs in my opinion unless they are based on twitch mechanics which I suck at are not difficult games at all. Don't think any of the old games are difficult they just require a lot of patience. Some of the mechanics are arguably tedious.
    Yah those loot drops, it was a Chance they could drop that, not guaranteed, so each year across the whole server there were only 52 tries for that loot, at best. That means if it dropped 10% of them, then it was only going to drop 5 of those 52 times. Which means, in a single year, across the whole server, only 5 people were going to get that item.

    That kind of open world loot drop, really made a rare item.. rare.

    As for RNG, yah, had to deal with that in Trove, the whole game was all RNG, you could spend some serious time trying to get that perfect combo, but IMHO, it was nowhere near as hard as the wat EQ set up loot drops.

    Instance dungeons made it a lot easier to get the named loot.

    Then in games like GW2, where you could craft the stat combos you wanted, pretty much made RNG a thing of the past, and after playing a game like GW2 where the crafting was viable even at the low levels, I could see the attraction to a good crafting system over all the other ways to handle loot.
    AlBQuirky
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 7,368
    edited May 20
    Ungood said:
    cheyane said:
    Thanks for the UO loot information. My earliest game was Everquest. I don't think I ever tried UO was too engrossed in Everquest for a few years. Had a very brief foray into Asheron's Call but I didn't like the game when I played it. I realise I should have tried it longer since I hear many good things about it but it was hard to pry me away from Everquest. Truly and well invested in Everquest to leave it for any other game until Anarchy Online came along. Then FFXI which was another of my early loves.

    I don't think random loot is something I would like since even if we know a certain item may drop in EQ it still could be months to get some items because I had the absolute worse luck in random groups in dungeons and lost rolls. Plus it does not drop every kill and the placeholder can spawn for hours. So it would be a bad nightmare for random loot for me.

    I also feel the easy stuff in Everquest was useful in the beginning for players to at least equip themselves. I did when I first started the dungeons. It was only later when I joined a really top guild that I got the real good drops and those were allocated via DKP.

    I enjoyed being in the guild and doing the raids. Although some took half a day it was fun to do it with friends.

    MMORPGs in my opinion unless they are based on twitch mechanics which I suck at are not difficult games at all. Don't think any of the old games are difficult they just require a lot of patience. Some of the mechanics are arguably tedious.
    Yah those loot drops, it was a Chance they could drop that, not guaranteed, so each year across the whole server there were only 52 tries for that loot, at best. That means if it dropped 10% of them, then it was only going to drop 5 of those 52 times. Which means, in a single year, across the whole server, only 5 people were going to get that item.

    That kind of open world loot drop, really made a rare item.. rare.

    As for RNG, yah, had to deal with that in Trove, the whole game was all RNG, you could spend some serious time trying to get that perfect combo, but IMHO, it was nowhere near as hard as the wat EQ set up loot drops.

    Instance dungeons made it a lot easier to get the named loot.

    Then in games like GW2, where you could craft the stat combos you wanted, pretty much made RNG a thing of the past, and after playing a game like GW2 where the crafting was viable even at the low levels, I could see the attraction to a good crafting system over all the other ways to handle loot.

    you would need a link to prove those drop rates ..

     ANd even if true when EQ had 20+ servers that would be 100 a year , lets just give the benefit of the doubt (of 10 years ) most like,ly more Thats 1000 of those swords ..No so truly rare now is it ..

     Still not even remotley close to the actual only One of a kind item that UO can produce .. One time forever .. most likely ..  More valuble for sure when it comes to dying with , and only having 7 minutes to recover if a mob did not loot it ..

     Little different than the 1 of 1000 sword that will be exactly where it fell  up to 24 hours later ..

     Which returns us to the root of the discussion

     UOs death system is much harsher.. imo and ime
  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,590
    Being rare and being hard to get are not always the same thing though. Taking months and months of running dungeons to get a very rare item is in my opinion harder, meaning it takes me work, than a one time only drop but could drop off any mob. 

    One requires dedicated work. The other just requires just requires playing any part of the game.

    Now I'm not saying that's what either of you are saying. Just stating my opinion regarding hard drops.
    tzervoAlBQuirky
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    edited May 21
    Being rare and being hard to get are not always the same thing though. Taking months and months of running dungeons to get a very rare item is in my opinion harder, meaning it takes me work, than a one time only drop but could drop off any mob. 

    One requires dedicated work. The other just requires just requires playing any part of the game.

    Now I'm not saying that's what either of you are saying. Just stating my opinion regarding hard drops.

    I don't really like totally random loot drops.

    Why would a nameless goblin be carrying a +5 ring?  Or is he was, why wouldn't he have that +5 ring equipped and using it in battle?  Or why would I only find a +1 sword in a dragon's hoard?  Not to say there couldn't be +1 sword in a dragon's hoard, but I would also expect to find a greater number of items in the hoard, including things which were much more rare and powerful.

    Anyway, back to the Death Penalty.

    If I progress by winning or succeeding, why shouldn't I regress by losing or failing?

    In Risk, I gain a territory if I win a battle, while I forfeit a territory if I lose a battle.

    In a side-scrolling platform game, I get to the next level if I live, but I have to start the level over again if I die.  Or I even have to start the game from the beginning if I run out of lives, and I'm not able to save.

    In a single player RPG, I have to start again from my last save point if I die.
    Post edited by Ancient_Exile on
    AlBQuirky
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  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,221
    Scorchien said:
    Ungood said:
    cheyane said:
    Thanks for the UO loot information. My earliest game was Everquest. I don't think I ever tried UO was too engrossed in Everquest for a few years. Had a very brief foray into Asheron's Call but I didn't like the game when I played it. I realise I should have tried it longer since I hear many good things about it but it was hard to pry me away from Everquest. Truly and well invested in Everquest to leave it for any other game until Anarchy Online came along. Then FFXI which was another of my early loves.

    I don't think random loot is something I would like since even if we know a certain item may drop in EQ it still could be months to get some items because I had the absolute worse luck in random groups in dungeons and lost rolls. Plus it does not drop every kill and the placeholder can spawn for hours. So it would be a bad nightmare for random loot for me.

    I also feel the easy stuff in Everquest was useful in the beginning for players to at least equip themselves. I did when I first started the dungeons. It was only later when I joined a really top guild that I got the real good drops and those were allocated via DKP.

    I enjoyed being in the guild and doing the raids. Although some took half a day it was fun to do it with friends.

    MMORPGs in my opinion unless they are based on twitch mechanics which I suck at are not difficult games at all. Don't think any of the old games are difficult they just require a lot of patience. Some of the mechanics are arguably tedious.
    Yah those loot drops, it was a Chance they could drop that, not guaranteed, so each year across the whole server there were only 52 tries for that loot, at best. That means if it dropped 10% of them, then it was only going to drop 5 of those 52 times. Which means, in a single year, across the whole server, only 5 people were going to get that item.

    That kind of open world loot drop, really made a rare item.. rare.

    As for RNG, yah, had to deal with that in Trove, the whole game was all RNG, you could spend some serious time trying to get that perfect combo, but IMHO, it was nowhere near as hard as the wat EQ set up loot drops.

    Instance dungeons made it a lot easier to get the named loot.

    Then in games like GW2, where you could craft the stat combos you wanted, pretty much made RNG a thing of the past, and after playing a game like GW2 where the crafting was viable even at the low levels, I could see the attraction to a good crafting system over all the other ways to handle loot.

    you would need a link to prove those drop rates ..

     ANd even if true when EQ had 20+ servers that would be 100 a year , lets just give the benefit of the doubt (of 10 years ) most like,ly more Thats 1000 of those swords ..No so truly rare now is it ..

     Still not even remotley close to the actual only One of a kind item that UO can produce .. One time forever .. most likely ..  More valuble for sure when it comes to dying with , and only having 7 minutes to recover if a mob did not loot it ..

     Little different than the 1 of 1000 sword that will be exactly where it fell  up to 24 hours later ..

     Which returns us to the root of the discussion

     UOs death system is much harsher.. imo and ime
    I haven't played UO, we both know this.

    But Trove also does a whole RNG thing, where you get random loot, with random stats, and you can even upgrade your gear (if you like the stats) and go so far as to add additional stats (RNG of course), thus making very unique items.

    However with RNG, by the very nature of how RNG works, nothing can be truly unique. And even if something was rare, that does not mean it has value, just because you have never seen that combo before does not mean anyone wants it, because it  could suck.

    So it is not it's rarity that makes it valuable, it's how sought after that stat combo is,  which of course, which of course with RNG, that combo has the same chance to happen as some perfect trash combo does, but that is typically how RNG works, when it is working right at least, that items only appear rare, because that is what you are looking for, and don't see value in combos that do not fit your build, or are not desired, even if they are just as unique.

    Or at least such was how things were in Trove.

    Since people told me players were collecting shit because no one had seen shit before, maybe UO players are a special breed.

    In any case, your post reminds me of this image.


    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • katzklawkatzklaw Member UncommonPosts: 85
    Scorchien said:
    you would need a link to prove those drop rates ..

    as an example.  Lord Nagafen spawns approximately every 3 days, give or take... it's not a set thing. sometimes you get Naggy, sometimes you get a placeholder.  Lord Nagafen drops what was at one point the SUPER highly sought after "Cloak of Flames".. 

    i have no idea if drop rates have been raised over the years, but considering that Naggy was one of the ORIGINAL 4 raid bosses of EQ... there's a possibility. that said.. the current drop rate from Nagafen is approximately 17% 

    keeping in mind this is open dungeon (only bright side being those who actually participated in the fight get "first dibs" to loot, so some random passer-by can't spamclick on the body as it's dying hoping to loot before the party fighting get to).. whoever hits "loot" first has full control over the one and only "chest"... and can distribute it accordingly, or swipe it all for themselves.  

    UO may be harsher... but the EQ system still kinda sucked
    Ungood
This discussion has been closed.