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Very Interesting Article on the Death Penalty in MMORPGs

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  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member RarePosts: 1,135
    Sovrath said:
    Sovrath said:
    Are the people who think that such things like "death penalties = punishment" much younger, in their twenties players?

    Penalty by definition is punishment. It is not a thought based issue.

    A difference in age may factor into how a punishment is viewed, but that is far from certain. I haven't seen my twenties for quite some time and personally don't see value in penalties beyond the time wasted due to failure.
    Well, that's why I asked the question. "Could" it be generational? I don't know but it's worth exploring.

    The difference in perception by generation, possibly.

    That penalty is other than punishment, not in the least.

    "2a : suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution
    b : a penalty inflicted on an offender through judicial procedure"



    On the last stage left of Super Mario Bros., only one life left.  This is my last chance to defeat King Koopa.  If I don't beat him now, I'm gonna have to start all over again from the very beginning.  Better make this count.

    Final Fantasy SPRPG - If I don't beat the last boss this time, I'll have to start again from my last save point.  Which means I'll have to wade through all those mobs for a half hour before I can try again.  OR Oh, well, I lost that battle.  At least I saved...Oh wait.  Dammit!  I forgot to save!  Now I have to play through the last 2 or 3 years all over again.



    Punishment is the imposition of an undesirable or unpleasant outcome upon a group or individual, meted out by an authority.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punishment

    The word has rather broad application.


  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    edited May 10
    Ungood said:
    If everyone is rich, no one is rich.  Because if everyone had a 1 billion dollars, 1 billion dollars would not be worth as much. 

    If everyone was really smart, how would we know that everyone was really smart?  There would be no one less smart to which we could compare ourselves.

    If everyone was good, how would we even know what being good meant?  The only way we know what being good means is if we are able to compare ourselves to someone who is better or worse than us.

    If everyone is an adventurer with uber-magical gear, then being an adventurer with uber-magical gear quickly loses its charm.

    If everyone is a hero, then no one is a hero. 
    Bingo.. and reality is, we are not Hero's, we are just average everyday nobodies that play games, we jump into these worlds of escapism to pretend to be heros, to have our epic uber gear, and our millions of coins, and the sooner we all embrace that, the less we need to dicks to everyone else playing the same game as us.

    Now maybe some people need to play zero sum games, maybe they need to shit on other people to feel better about themselves, maybe they are deep down Cartman's, where they only want something because no one else has it.

    Maybe some people are that petty. For me, I simply do not grasp that mentality.

    Case in Point. In DDO, my Lit II Green Steel Greatsword does not do less damage because everyone else in the party also has a Supreme Tyrant Green Steel Weapon or Weapons, it just makes the dungeons go faster.

    When I made my first Green Steel weapon, the other people I was raiding with, a open PUG I might add, congratulated me on making my first piece. Strangers and Friends alike were happy for my progress and accomplishment, and in turn as I played, I found myself being happy for the progress of others.

    To use another Example.

    When I finally made Astralaria in GW2, it didn't make it any less an Accomplishment for me to make that, simply because a huge number of other people also made it, and most did it before me.

    As tradition, I linked in Lions Arch the parts before I crafted the weapon in GW2, and the there people congratulated me on making a Legendary, my first and only, even people who had a dozen of them, where happy for me to finally make one of my own. Others talked about their own progress and it turned into a grand event of us cheering each other on and not to give up. 

    That is what sets the mentality of difference between the game ideas and the nature of the people that play them, where in a game world players are supportive and happy for each others progress, they did not view it as a threat to their own.

    What you are putting out is a game world full of players that view each others progress as a threat to their own. 

    Sounds like what you are looking for is a game world full of bitter jealous petty players, while I wish you well in finding that world, that sure as hell does not something I would want to do for fun filled fantasy escapism. 

    You are not Nobody.  You are Somebody.  Unless you think that Nobody can type. 

    Anyway, in the game I envision, the players in my own Faction and Alliance would be happy about (and maybe even congratulate me for my progress).  Just like players on a baseball team are happy when another player makes a good play or hits a home run.  Because he's helping their team to win.  Or at least not to lose so badly.

    However, the players in an opposing Faction or Alliance may not be so happy about my progress.  And that's okay.  That's how games work.  I don't expect my opponents to like me or feel good about me when I perform well or outperform them.  Because it's a game.  And everyone wants to win, succeed, do better than their opponents, do their best not to let their allies down and/or at least manage to survive and live to fight another day.

    Post edited by Ancient_Exile on
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    Sovrath said:
    Sovrath said:
    Are the people who think that such things like "death penalties = punishment" much younger, in their twenties players?

    Penalty by definition is punishment. It is not a thought based issue.

    A difference in age may factor into how a punishment is viewed, but that is far from certain. I haven't seen my twenties for quite some time and personally don't see value in penalties beyond the time wasted due to failure.
    Well, that's why I asked the question. "Could" it be generational? I don't know but it's worth exploring.

    The difference in perception by generation, possibly.

    That penalty is other than punishment, not in the least.

    "2a : suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution
    b : a penalty inflicted on an offender through judicial procedure"



    On the last stage left of Super Mario Bros., only one life left.  This is my last chance to defeat King Koopa.  If I don't beat him now, I'm gonna have to start all over again from the very beginning.  Better make this count.

    Final Fantasy SPRPG - If I don't beat the last boss this time, I'll have to start again from my last save point.  Which means I'll have to wade through all those mobs for a half hour before I can try again.  OR Oh, well, I lost that battle.  At least I saved...Oh wait.  Dammit!  I forgot to save!  Now I have to play through the last 2 or 3 years all over again.



    Punishment is the imposition of an undesirable or unpleasant outcome upon a group or individual, meted out by an authority.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punishment

    The word has rather broad application.


    "1a : to impose a penalty on for a fault, offense, or violation
    b : to inflict a penalty for the commission of (an offense) in retribution or retaliation
    2a : to deal with roughly or harshly
    b : to inflict injury on : hurt"


    I wasn't denying that a Death Penalty can be seen as a punishment.  And that's okay.  A punishment is one type of a bad or negative consequence for not playing the game well enough compared to how well I have the potential to play it.  Instead of dying in that situation, I could have made a different decision, used better judgment, or just played better than I did.  So now, hopefully, I've learned a valuable lesson that will help me play better in the future.  Having more at risk (and understanding the consequences of failure) should help me to make better decisions which will help me to avoid negative consequences.




    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,198
    edited May 10
    Ungood said:
    The whole article can be summed up as Thus:

    Eventually, the currency you are paid — the “reward” — becomes worthless since anyone can “earn” it.
    Every player wants the game to be set in such a way that only they can can get the best stuff and no one else can.

    Funny little bit of irony that the very same people that don't want to be the "Chosen One" when it's scripted, because then everyone is the Chosen One, all want to be.. The Chosen One.. in some unscripted way, where no one else is the Chosen One.




    But see, this is the problem with MMO's, Everyone that wants to be THE Hero also wants that NO ONE else can be The Hero.

    That simply does not work in an Multiplayer game.
    You are being grossly unfair to people like me. 
    And you are assuming way too much. 

    Maybe it's the gamers who want that guaranteed Hero status are the ones who don't want someone else to be the only one, or one of the few? 
    Is that why some of you expect the guarantee? Because you are afraid that otherwise, you can't achieve it?
    And for the record, I myself don't expect that I would ever be "the hero." I don't even play for that. 

    UO never had "a hero." 
    They had some famous names, but most of them did that by distinguishing themselves in other ways than beating up on the MOBs. 
    Names I remember...
    - Kazola ran her tavern, first ever player owned and run tavern in MMORPGs.
    - Blitz Phoenix was one of the first Rares collectors and provided pics for the page on rare items at Stratics. (There were some others but I don't recall their names.)
    - Maximilian was one of the early Mayors of the RP community in Yew, where they even set up a mail service with an address system. 
    (I met the original mayor, but can't remember his name. I helped him make his final dungeon run in UO, before he left for good. He intended to die in one last adventure.) 
    Max was one of the best RPers I've ever met, RPing in the moment and making it interesting and fun. (Blitz Phoenix too, for that matter.) 
    - Gem founded the Fishing Council of Britannia.
    - The Museum of Memories was founded by Lorak. I knew him as Samuel (iirc) who was a guild leader of an allied anti-PK guild. The Museum was later taken over by Kaelyn, and then later and possibly last by Jim Spellhurler. 
    - Spectre was the MOD at a forum known as "The Mage Tower", while UO was in alpha and beta. He built the first in-game Mage Tower, a place for mages to gather and share information. 
    He later became one of the foremost PKers, and in that status was probably one of the few who were closest to the stereotype of a great fighter of legend. 
    - The most famous of the stereotypical "fighter" types of fame, I can't remember his name now, but he was actually hired by a company making a new game to help design their PvP. Was that AC? Some of you might recall him if I could remember his name. 
    - "og" was perhaps one of the most feared and well known PKers/PvPers in all of UO, as well as some other games. 
    - Platt ran the first major, in-game, auction houses. This was quite a deal. Major "Rare" items were sometimes auctioned off there, as well as lots of other things players wanted. 
    I always suspected he was also part of the Museum of Memories, but I don't know for sure. 
    - Tengam made bows. For some reason his bows always performed better. No one knows why, but the word spread among archers on my shard. He wasn't famous game wide, or even among all the players on my shard, but among dedicated archers his name was known. 

    So you see, most of these "heroes" accomplished it by organization skills, and dedication to something unique. And they did it in a game that was specifically lacking guaranteed "heroism." Because even though UO had Maxed characters just like any other game, and no one will remember the names of those characters, what UO had was a much deeper social aspect to it. 

    --------------
    "And that's why no one will remember your name"
    (You are just like everyone else)




    Definitely fought an unarmed guy on Darktide named og. He never spoke. Just did grunts or something.

    Well, og didn't speak much, but when he did he was concise. Usually in response to his opponent. 
    That sounds like someone using his name. 

    By the way, his name was supposedly pronounced "oh gee" (from his guild mates in the same PK guild that Spectre took over), but I never heard if that was those words or his initials. 

    Once upon a time....

  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    Ungood said:
    The whole article can be summed up as Thus:

    Eventually, the currency you are paid — the “reward” — becomes worthless since anyone can “earn” it.
    Every player wants the game to be set in such a way that only they can can get the best stuff and no one else can.

    Funny little bit of irony that the very same people that don't want to be the "Chosen One" when it's scripted, because then everyone is the Chosen One, all want to be.. The Chosen One.. in some unscripted way, where no one else is the Chosen One.




    But see, this is the problem with MMO's, Everyone that wants to be THE Hero also wants that NO ONE else can be The Hero.

    That simply does not work in an Multiplayer game.
    You are being grossly unfair to people like me. 
    And you are assuming way too much. 

    Maybe it's the gamers who want that guaranteed Hero status are the ones who don't want someone else to be the only one, or one of the few? 
    Is that why some of you expect the guarantee? Because you are afraid that otherwise, you can't achieve it?
    And for the record, I myself don't expect that I would ever be "the hero." I don't even play for that. 

    UO never had "a hero." 
    They had some famous names, but most of them did that by distinguishing themselves in other ways than beating up on the MOBs. 
    Names I remember...
    - Kazola ran her tavern, first ever player owned and run tavern in MMORPGs.
    - Blitz Phoenix was one of the first Rares collectors and provided pics for the page on rare items at Stratics. (There were some others but I don't recall their names.)
    - Maximilian was one of the early Mayors of the RP community in Yew, where they even set up a mail service with an address system. 
    (I met the original mayor, but can't remember his name. I helped him make his final dungeon run in UO, before he left for good. He intended to die in one last adventure.) 
    Max was one of the best RPers I've ever met, RPing in the moment and making it interesting and fun. (Blitz Phoenix too, for that matter.) 
    - Gem founded the Fishing Council of Britannia.
    - The Museum of Memories was founded by Lorak. I knew him as Samuel (iirc) who was a guild leader of an allied anti-PK guild. The Museum was later taken over by Kaelyn, and then later and possibly last by Jim Spellhurler. 
    - Spectre was the MOD at a forum known as "The Mage Tower", while UO was in alpha and beta. He built the first in-game Mage Tower, a place for mages to gather and share information. 
    He later became one of the foremost PKers, and in that status was probably one of the few who were closest to the stereotype of a great fighter of legend. 
    - The most famous of the stereotypical "fighter" types of fame, I can't remember his name now, but he was actually hired by a company making a new game to help design their PvP. Was that AC? Some of you might recall him if I could remember his name. 
    - "og" was perhaps one of the most feared and well known PKers/PvPers in all of UO, as well as some other games. 
    - Platt ran the first major, in-game, auction houses. This was quite a deal. Major "Rare" items were sometimes auctioned off there, as well as lots of other things players wanted. 
    I always suspected he was also part of the Museum of Memories, but I don't know for sure. 
    - Tengam made bows. For some reason his bows always performed better. No one knows why, but the word spread among archers on my shard. He wasn't famous game wide, or even among all the players on my shard, but among dedicated archers his name was known. 

    So you see, most of these "heroes" accomplished it by organization skills, and dedication to something unique. And they did it in a game that was specifically lacking guaranteed "heroism." Because even though UO had Maxed characters just like any other game, and no one will remember the names of those characters, what UO had was a much deeper social aspect to it. 

    --------------
    "And that's why no one will remember your name"
    (You are just like everyone else)




    Definitely fought an unarmed guy on Darktide named og. He never spoke. Just did grunts or something.

    Well, og didn't speak much, but when he did he was concise. Usually in response to his opponent. 
    That sounds like someone using his name. 

    By the way, his name was supposedly pronounced "oh gee" (from his guild mates in the same PK guild that Spectre took over), but I never heard if that was those words or his initials. 

    Fun fact:  Og of Bashan was the name of a giant mentioned in the Book of Judges and Deuteronomy (plus a few other books of the Old Testament/Tanach).  Apparently he slept on an iron bed that was more than thirteen feet long and six feet wide. 

    I wonder if his name has any connection to the word Ogre?

    "man-eating giant of fairy tales and popular legends," 1713, hogre (in a translation of a French version of the Arabian Nights), from French ogre, first used in Perrault's "Contes," 1697, and perhaps formed by him from a dialectal variant of Italian orco "demon, monster," from Latin Orcus "Hades," which is of unknown origin. - https://www.etymonline.com/word/ogre

    (Note: Bold Emphasis added)


    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,198
    AlBQuirky said:
    It seems that some players feel failure is a punishment. And that's cool.

    Other players feel failure is just failure. And that's cool.

    In the MMO games of today, I don't feel one iota of "punishment" in a game where I am max level in 2 weeks tops. World of Warcraft's "death penalty" I have used as a means of fast travel, it's so piddly.

    I just don't feel "punished" by failure, but understand how some players can. Is that more of  true "fear of failure" than I have? :lol:
    It goes back to that "blue ribbon" thing. 
    It's not fear of "punishment", it's expectations of success as "a given." 
    And I'm sorry, but I don't see that as being fine. I see it as an issue. 

    The real world awaits to slap some sense into those people. 
    And then they (most of them) are going to start blaming everybody/thing but themselves. 
    (Apologies, but that's the truth.) 

    these games are not doing anyone any favors by giving them all that they want. In fact, doing the opposite. 

    The real world is adept in the application of punishment, to the point where many feel a need to take a break from it to refresh to better sustain the next incoming wave.

    I can see how games with little in the way or repercussion can be favourable to some.

    If you expect to just be handed success 
    (as in guaranteed gains without loss in games) 
    then you have been victimized by this thinking. 

    I know it sounds harsh to some people, but to them I say, what kind of person are you? Where's your pride? 

    It's sad that many gamers look at their MMORPGs as a form of instant gratification rather than an experience with some depth. 

    Still, I have to respect their rights, if not their choice. 

    I expect that those playing games do not have a uniform preference for difficulty and reward.  I expect those playing games do not all share the same motivation in either nature or degree. I consider none of these varied preferences and motivations to be inherently superior.

    I believe that the contention a preference for lower difficulty is equivalent in all cases to a desire for instant gratification over depth and indicative of a lack of personal pride is an oversimplification with questionable foundation.

    That's fine. You believe what you want to. 

    "First order of business, have the scribes order one million medals of honor, one million blue ribbons, and one million gold coin to go with each. And may we be victorious in the dungeons on the morrow! Like there should be any question about that, eh? Haha" 



    Ancient_ExileKylerantzervo

    Once upon a time....

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,250
    "And that's why no one will remember your name"
    (You are just like everyone else)


    Fame is why you play MMORPGs?
    Ungood

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • tzervotzervo Member RarePosts: 507
    AlBQuirky said:
    Fame is why you play MMORPGs?
    Aspiring for fame or infamy or excellence and working towards it is a strong motivator for lots of MMORPG players.
    Ancient_ExileAmarantharAlBQuirkyUngoodbcbully
  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    AlBQuirky said:
    "And that's why no one will remember your name"
    (You are just like everyone else)


    Fame is why you play MMORPGs?

    I don't think that's what he's saying.  Though the possibility of being remembered for something important is not an uncommon motivation amongst mortals.  Even if its only by family members and friends. 

    "Remember how grandpa used to wake us up before the crack of dawn and take us to the lake to go fishing?  I kind of hated it then, but looking back, those were good times."

    Or fond recollections of grandma's cooking, father's skill with a rifle and his hunting prowess (and passing his skills, received from his father, down to his sons and/or daughters).  Mother's skill with the sewing needle and how she would patch up our torn clothing.  Mom or dad teaching us how to ride a bike, tie our shoes, or whatever else. 
    AlBQuirky
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,198
    AlBQuirky said:
    "And that's why no one will remember your name"
    (You are just like everyone else)


    Fame is why you play MMORPGs?
    Not me. But the discussion is on "heroes" and fame is an aspect of known heroism. 

    Myself, I don't seek fame, but if it comes I'm not totally against it, either. 

    I discovered the greatest mystery in all of gaming, IMO, and still had no fame. And it doesn't bother me one bit. 
    https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/487824/the-greatest-quest-artifact-to-ever-exist-in-mmorpgs#latest 
    What does bother me is that there isn't more of this sort of thing "in play." 
    AlBQuirky

    Once upon a time....

  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 1,896
    AlBQuirky said:
    "And that's why no one will remember your name"
    (You are just like everyone else)


    Fame is why you play MMORPGs?
    Not me. But the discussion is on "heroes" and fame is an aspect of known heroism. 

    Myself, I don't seek fame, but if it comes I'm not totally against it, either. 

    I discovered the greatest mystery in all of gaming, IMO, and still had no fame. And it doesn't bother me one bit. 
    https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/487824/the-greatest-quest-artifact-to-ever-exist-in-mmorpgs#latest 
    What does bother me is that there isn't more of this sort of thing "in play." 
    I thought the discussion was in death penalities ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    Ancient_ExileAlBQuirkytzervo
    "Wake up, It's RNG, there is no such thing as 'rare'"
    - Ungood
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,250
    edited May 10
    Kyleran said:
    I've never played UO nor heard of any you mentioned, but Fancy the Bard in EQ1, him I've heard legends of....

    But then history well remembers the villains,  heroes not quite so much?

    While most here could recant some story about Ghengis Khan, or Atilla the Hun, few would be able to name the heroes who turned them back, well, at least not without looking it up on Google.

    I never heard of Fancy the Bard either, since I didn't play EQ. 

    But those people I mentioned, most of them were famous not for being "evil", but for doing something positive. 
    I guess it depends on a person's definition of "hero" to an extent. 


    For your reading pleasure. I get a kick every time I read this stuff :)

    It's a great example of how many players think and why rules are so hard to "work as intended."


    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,250
    AlBQuirky said:
    "And that's why no one will remember your name"
    (You are just like everyone else)


    Fame is why you play MMORPGs?
    Not me. But the discussion is on "heroes" and fame is an aspect of known heroism. 

    Myself, I don't seek fame, but if it comes I'm not totally against it, either. 

    I discovered the greatest mystery in all of gaming, IMO, and still had no fame. And it doesn't bother me one bit. 
    https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/487824/the-greatest-quest-artifact-to-ever-exist-in-mmorpgs#latest 
    What does bother me is that there isn't more of this sort of thing "in play." 
    I thought the discussion was in death penalities ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    Well... I guess one could be famously dead?
    ChildoftheShadowsAncient_ExiletzervoUngood

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    AlBQuirky said:
    Kyleran said:
    I've never played UO nor heard of any you mentioned, but Fancy the Bard in EQ1, him I've heard legends of....

    But then history well remembers the villains,  heroes not quite so much?

    While most here could recant some story about Ghengis Khan, or Atilla the Hun, few would be able to name the heroes who turned them back, well, at least not without looking it up on Google.

    I never heard of Fancy the Bard either, since I didn't play EQ. 

    But those people I mentioned, most of them were famous not for being "evil", but for doing something positive. 
    I guess it depends on a person's definition of "hero" to an extent. 


    For your reading pleasure. I get a kick every time I read this stuff :)

    It's a great example of how many players think and why rules are so hard to "work as intended."



    Bookmarked. 

    Now back to...


    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • tzervotzervo Member RarePosts: 507
    edited May 10
    AlBQuirky said:
    Well... I guess one could be famously dead?
    And to think that there is a game out there that rewards you for dying (Project*cough*Gorgon*cough). I can see people being "famous" for dying there :)
    Ancient_ExileAlBQuirky
  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member RarePosts: 1,135
    AlBQuirky said:
    It seems that some players feel failure is a punishment. And that's cool.

    Other players feel failure is just failure. And that's cool.

    In the MMO games of today, I don't feel one iota of "punishment" in a game where I am max level in 2 weeks tops. World of Warcraft's "death penalty" I have used as a means of fast travel, it's so piddly.

    I just don't feel "punished" by failure, but understand how some players can. Is that more of  true "fear of failure" than I have? :lol:
    It goes back to that "blue ribbon" thing. 
    It's not fear of "punishment", it's expectations of success as "a given." 
    And I'm sorry, but I don't see that as being fine. I see it as an issue. 

    The real world awaits to slap some sense into those people. 
    And then they (most of them) are going to start blaming everybody/thing but themselves. 
    (Apologies, but that's the truth.) 

    these games are not doing anyone any favors by giving them all that they want. In fact, doing the opposite. 

    The real world is adept in the application of punishment, to the point where many feel a need to take a break from it to refresh to better sustain the next incoming wave.

    I can see how games with little in the way or repercussion can be favourable to some.

    If you expect to just be handed success 
    (as in guaranteed gains without loss in games) 
    then you have been victimized by this thinking. 

    I know it sounds harsh to some people, but to them I say, what kind of person are you? Where's your pride? 

    It's sad that many gamers look at their MMORPGs as a form of instant gratification rather than an experience with some depth. 

    Still, I have to respect their rights, if not their choice. 

    I expect that those playing games do not have a uniform preference for difficulty and reward.  I expect those playing games do not all share the same motivation in either nature or degree. I consider none of these varied preferences and motivations to be inherently superior.

    I believe that the contention a preference for lower difficulty is equivalent in all cases to a desire for instant gratification over depth and indicative of a lack of personal pride is an oversimplification with questionable foundation.

    That's fine. You believe what you want to. 


    Obviously.
  • jusomdudejusomdude Member RarePosts: 2,706
    Death penalties are an outdated mechanic, if it can even be called a mechanic that adds nothing of value to the game experience.
    Ancient_ExileIselin
  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    edited May 16
    jusomdude said:
    Death penalties are an outdated mechanic, if it can even be called a mechanic that adds nothing of value to the game experience.
    Challenge seems to be an 'outdated mechanic' in many MMORPGs as well.

    Well, we might as well add more tangible Risk vs Reward, interesting and important choices, Non-Linearity, the need for socialization, and even the original concept of Role-Playing to that list of 'outdated' things.

    Iselin
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member RarePosts: 1,135
    jusomdude said:
    Death penalties are an outdated mechanic, if it can even be called a mechanic that adds nothing of value to the game experience.
    Challenge seems to be an 'outdated mechanic' in many MMORPGs as well.

    Well, we might as well add more tangible Risk vs Reward, interesting and important choices, Non-Linearity, the need for socialization, and even the original concept of Role-Playing to that list of 'outdated' things.


    Challenge remains. It must simply now be sought as it is largely not default. Failure remains tangible to any that value the time lost due to it.

    There are games that provide that provide plenty of interesting and important choices related to character. One must simple seek them out. Story-led games will not go beyond that in any meaningful way. Non-linearity is more limited, but even that is present in a few games.

    Mandatory collective activity isn't social in nature. I have seen few MMORPGs with much in the way of role-play going on. Such games may well have been a conceptual precursor but are little more than that in practice.

    The most I've ever seen was in City of Heroes on the Virtue server, and the vast majority of that was outside combat. Most had the good sense to tie their backgrounds and role-play to the setting of the game and not the specific stories themselves.

    Those inclined could do the same on any story-led game. That I see it so seldomly suggests few are inclined, at least in public view.
  • RhoklawRhoklaw Member EpicPosts: 7,138
    I've always enjoyed EQ for this very reason. Dying was a real possibility, especially in dungeons and when you died, you lost hours worth of XP if you didn't find a rezz on top of dropping all your gear. So corpse runs were very much a pain unless someone gifted you with some speed and invisibility. This type of death penalty makes a person think twice before starting a battle. You didn't just stomp stuff in EQ like you do in WoW. Completely different levels of difficulty. Yet WoW had basically zero or rather minimal death penalty.
    Ancient_Exile

  • cheyanecheyane Member EpicPosts: 7,227
    edited May 18
    I especially loved it when Fansy charmed the Priest of Discord.
    Post edited by cheyane on
    AlBQuirky
    Martens: "With all due respect, madam, where are you going with this?"
    Avasarala: "Wherever I goddamn like."
  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    edited May 18
    jusomdude said:
    Death penalties are an outdated mechanic, if it can even be called a mechanic that adds nothing of value to the game experience.
    Challenge seems to be an 'outdated mechanic' in many MMORPGs as well.

    Well, we might as well add more tangible Risk vs Reward, interesting and important choices, Non-Linearity, the need for socialization, and even the original concept of Role-Playing to that list of 'outdated' things.


    Challenge remains. It must simply now be sought as it is largely not default. Failure remains tangible to any that value the time lost due to it.

    There are games that provide that provide plenty of interesting and important choices related to character. One must simple seek them out. Story-led games will not go beyond that in any meaningful way. Non-linearity is more limited, but even that is present in a few games.

    Mandatory collective activity isn't social in nature. I have seen few MMORPGs with much in the way of role-play going on. Such games may well have been a conceptual precursor but are little more than that in practice.

    The most I've ever seen was in City of Heroes on the Virtue server, and the vast majority of that was outside combat. Most had the good sense to tie their backgrounds and role-play to the setting of the game and not the specific stories themselves.

    Those inclined could do the same on any story-led game. That I see it so seldomly suggests few are inclined, at least in public view.

    Challenge

    I agree that many games are still challenging initially.  Until one learns and masters the controls, features, systems, and mechanics.  After that, it's usually just a matter or gaining more Combat Power (levels, gear, boons, etc.) in order to overcome higher level enemies with more complex AI.  Raids usually present the highest level of difficulty in PVE games.  But those are generally just a matter of having good enough gear and attempting them enough times until the Raid Group masters the strategy which will eventually guarantee (or at least greatly increase the chance) of victory.  PVP requires a bit more skill and/or teamwork, but levels and gear generally play a very large role in whether a player is able to compete or not.


    Choice

    What important choices do most MMORPGs offer us beyond what race and class we play, what skills we train and use, where we go, what we fight, what we gather (or not), what trade we learn (or not), who we group with, what guild we join, how much we play, how much we are willing to grind, and whether or not we spend money on the game?


    Non-Linearity

    Not really many AAA Non-Linear/Sandboxes available to play.  Thememparks on Rails dominate the present landscape.


    Socialization

    I don't know.  Didn't humans form strong communities in the past because they needed each other to survive?  In a dangerous environment inhabited by competing tribes?  Wasn't the interdependence of people in societies quite evident until after the Industrial Revolution and the following technological boom?  Still, even families still often depend on each other for survival even in modern times.  And we do have some forms of at least attempted forced socialization at the present time.  School & work for example.


    Role-Playing

    Role-Playing doesn't just mean talking and behaving as I am my chosen character in an alternate/fantasy world.  It can also just mean that my character's choices and actions will lead to different outcomes that matter as opposed to the choices and actions of other player characters.  But these sorts of choices are generally very limited and of narrow scope in Themeparks on Rails. 
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    cheyane said:
    I especially loved it when Fancy charmed the Priest of Discord.

    Sounds interesting.  Please elaborate.
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • cheyanecheyane Member EpicPosts: 7,227
    edited May 18
    cheyane said:
    I especially loved it when Fancy charmed the Priest of Discord.

    Sounds interesting.  Please elaborate.
    You never played Everquest ? I never played on a PvP server but when I played everyone I knew who played Everquest knew who Fansy was.

    Sorry Fansy not Fancy. It was a play on pansy the name.

    Sullon Zek where there were mainly evil aligned players was synonymous to scum and villainy but there was one rule you cannot kill a level 5 player. He was a bard or troubadour as he called himself and he was level 5 but he was armed with Selo Accelerendo a level 5 song that speeds your movement. So he trained a whole bunch of Sand Giants on players but only those players he had talked to and although always polite he would annoy them enough or deem them evil and kill them. Of course after awhile they were on to him but he was level 5 so they could not kill him.

    He also managed to charm the Priest of Discord in Riverdale and set him to attack all the players in Riverdale.

    Mind you when you die in Everquest you can lose a lot of experience. Experience you might need days to grind back up so needless to say he pissed off a lot of players.
    Ancient_ExileUngoodSharnekitarad
    Martens: "With all due respect, madam, where are you going with this?"
    Avasarala: "Wherever I goddamn like."
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