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Very Interesting Article on the Death Penalty in MMORPGs

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  • tzervotzervo Member RarePosts: 507
    bcbully said:
    tzervo said:
    Iselin said:
    Those are the alien meta gamers who have invaded my MMOs. Them and the ones who are ecstatic when a double XP event is announced :)
    Guilty of being the first, want to shoot the second :P
    I’m both?
    Can I hug you, then shoot you?
    IselinAlBQuirkybcbully
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,354
    AAAMEOW said: 
    There are like 300 mmorpg out there.  Other game genre have far more players and far less games.  
    How do you expect anyone to take you seriously after this horribly fake statistic?
    ya, I make up the 300 number.  But there are 55 pages of games listed on this site, every page have 15 games.  Grant many are not mmorpg, there seemed to be a shit load.

    There are also many mobile and asian mmorpg not listed on this site, so my guess is there are many mmorpg.  But I don't know the number.
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 1,896
    AAAMEOW said:
    AAAMEOW said: 
    There are like 300 mmorpg out there.  Other game genre have far more players and far less games.  
    How do you expect anyone to take you seriously after this horribly fake statistic?
    ya, I make up the 300 number.  But there are 55 pages of games listed on this site, every page have 15 games.  Grant many are not mmorpg, there seemed to be a shit load.

    There are also many mobile and asian mmorpg not listed on this site, so my guess is there are many mmorpg.  But I don't know the number.
    Oh, yeah that's wrong, but I was more laughing at the "other genre have far fewer games".
    Ancient_Exile
    "Wake up, It's RNG, there is no such thing as 'rare'"
    - Ungood
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,421
    edited May 7
    bcbully said:
    tzervo said:
    Iselin said:
    tzervo said:

    Player A tries to find the most efficient way to get gold in a game. He finds out that way "Bla" of grinding is better. His satisfaction does not come out of the grinding act itself, but:

    1) out of figuring out the strategy: that this method is better
    2) out of the result. This is his reward and his confirmation that the effort he put into coming up with this strategy had a good result.


    Those are the alien meta gamers who have invaded my MMOs. Them and the ones who are ecstatic when a double XP event is announced :)
    Guilty of being the first, want to shoot the second :P
    I’m both?
    Meta gaming insofar as tinkering with builds I enjoy... a lot. Grinding in one spot 'cause that's where the best XP/hour is sucks though.

    Players getting excited about double XP events just tells me 3 things: that the regular XP gains are deliberately inadequate; that XP pots are sold in the cash shop and the events are just a free sample to try to hook you; that the leveling experience - A.K.A. the core game - is something best avoided.

    Shame on you :)
    tzervoAlBQuirky
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,357
    :# Iselin said:
    Sovrath said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Sovrath said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    It seems that some players feel failure is a punishment. And that's cool.

    Other players feel failure is just failure. And that's cool.

    In the MMO games of today, I don't feel one iota of "punishment" in a game where I am max level in 2 weeks tops. World of Warcraft's "death penalty" I have used as a means of fast travel, it's so piddly.

    I just don't feel "punished" by failure, but understand how some players can. Is that more of  true "fear of failure" than I have? :lol:
    It goes back to that "blue ribbon" thing. 
    It's not fear of "punishment", it's expectations of success as "a given." 
    And I'm sorry, but I don't see that as being fine. I see it as an issue. 

    The real world awaits to slap some sense into those people. 
    And then they (most of them) are going to start blaming everybody/thing but themselves. 
    (Apologies, but that's the truth.) 

    these games are not doing anyone any favors by giving them all that they want. In fact, doing the opposite. 
    To that point, and something that this discussion makes me wonder about, is it a generational thing?

    Are the people who think that such things like "death penalties = punishment" much younger, in their twenties players?

    And the players who don't think that are 40 +? Just a thought. Might not be correct.

    Well, I'm 57 and Iselin I think said he was 70 or so. We are on opposite sides here :)

    But Iselin is Canadian and I'm American! :LOL:

    I think Kylran is 70 "ish" and Iselin is in his 20's? I don't remember. but I'm 53 and I'm starting to forget things. :o
    Wrong assumption and details yet again :)
    I’ll say, I’m “only” 62......    :#
    AlBQuirkyTuor7

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,421
    Kyleran said:
    :# Iselin said:
    Sovrath said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Sovrath said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    It seems that some players feel failure is a punishment. And that's cool.

    Other players feel failure is just failure. And that's cool.

    In the MMO games of today, I don't feel one iota of "punishment" in a game where I am max level in 2 weeks tops. World of Warcraft's "death penalty" I have used as a means of fast travel, it's so piddly.

    I just don't feel "punished" by failure, but understand how some players can. Is that more of  true "fear of failure" than I have? :lol:
    It goes back to that "blue ribbon" thing. 
    It's not fear of "punishment", it's expectations of success as "a given." 
    And I'm sorry, but I don't see that as being fine. I see it as an issue. 

    The real world awaits to slap some sense into those people. 
    And then they (most of them) are going to start blaming everybody/thing but themselves. 
    (Apologies, but that's the truth.) 

    these games are not doing anyone any favors by giving them all that they want. In fact, doing the opposite. 
    To that point, and something that this discussion makes me wonder about, is it a generational thing?

    Are the people who think that such things like "death penalties = punishment" much younger, in their twenties players?

    And the players who don't think that are 40 +? Just a thought. Might not be correct.

    Well, I'm 57 and Iselin I think said he was 70 or so. We are on opposite sides here :)

    But Iselin is Canadian and I'm American! :LOL:

    I think Kylran is 70 "ish" and Iselin is in his 20's? I don't remember. but I'm 53 and I'm starting to forget things. :o
    Wrong assumption and details yet again :)
    I’ll say, I’m “only” 62......    :#
    I know. I can tell by your level of maturity...kid :)
    AlBQuirkyKyleran
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,099
    edited May 7
    Lack of risk vs. reward to me does make MMORPG soulless.  I don't agree with the article that you need a death penalty but I think one does help.  I think it misses the boat that MMORPG focus on rewarding gameplay over fun gameplay is the real culprit. People commit to the grind to be rewarded with advancement.  Without the reward MMORPG gameplay doesn't hold up on its own.

    I'd like to see more sandbox building worlds, fun and varied modes of travel, exotic locations that take days to reach, explore different planes of existence where physics and abilities work different, cool gear that does cool stuff besides +1, unique NPC that are vastly different from each other and etc. Make it rewarding not because you grind or can beat socially bottlenecked game play.

    Death penalty can add something back to MMORPG but it's one optional piece. Going to back EQ levels of boredom, grind and penalty is not the answer in my opinion.  Great things in that game but there is a reason why advancement methods were mostly dropped.
    Post edited by Vermillion_Raventhal on
    tzervoAmarantharAlBQuirkyAncient_Exileeoloe
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 28,617
    Kyleran said:
    :# Iselin said:
    Sovrath said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Sovrath said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    It seems that some players feel failure is a punishment. And that's cool.

    Other players feel failure is just failure. And that's cool.

    In the MMO games of today, I don't feel one iota of "punishment" in a game where I am max level in 2 weeks tops. World of Warcraft's "death penalty" I have used as a means of fast travel, it's so piddly.

    I just don't feel "punished" by failure, but understand how some players can. Is that more of  true "fear of failure" than I have? :lol:
    It goes back to that "blue ribbon" thing. 
    It's not fear of "punishment", it's expectations of success as "a given." 
    And I'm sorry, but I don't see that as being fine. I see it as an issue. 

    The real world awaits to slap some sense into those people. 
    And then they (most of them) are going to start blaming everybody/thing but themselves. 
    (Apologies, but that's the truth.) 

    these games are not doing anyone any favors by giving them all that they want. In fact, doing the opposite. 
    To that point, and something that this discussion makes me wonder about, is it a generational thing?

    Are the people who think that such things like "death penalties = punishment" much younger, in their twenties players?

    And the players who don't think that are 40 +? Just a thought. Might not be correct.

    Well, I'm 57 and Iselin I think said he was 70 or so. We are on opposite sides here :)

    But Iselin is Canadian and I'm American! :LOL:

    I think Kylran is 70 "ish" and Iselin is in his 20's? I don't remember. but I'm 53 and I'm starting to forget things. :o
    Wrong assumption and details yet again :)
    I’ll say, I’m “only” 62......    :#
    Not anymore, you're now 70. Now "renew!"
    AlBQuirkyKyleran
  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    edited May 7
    If I'm not willing to suffer/endure pain in order to achieve something, then it isn't worth achieving in the first place.
    Post edited by Ancient_Exile on
    AlBQuirky
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,198
    edited May 9
    If I'm not willing to suffer/endure pain in order to achieve something, then it isn't worth achieving in the first place.
    I think a small death penalty is required to make games better. 
    But it should normally be very small. Larger penalties for larger things. 

    PKers should be risking large death penalties, if a game has them. 
    Players going into the Ancient Demon Liche's Lair to put the final destruction on it, and win a hoard of ancient riches and powerful artifacts, should be risking a large death penalty. 

    Normal activities should only have a slight penalty. 
    I think they are needed in order to keep the game from just being win-win all the time. 
    I also think that the unchallenged march to Max Level or Skills is a bad thing. Having a Maxed out character should be a big deal. It's not because everyone can get there, and stay there forever. 

    While a small death penalty is nothing for a lower level/skill player to overcome, it should get harder to do at high levels/skills. 
    Even being at 99% of Max should be a pretty big deal. 

    AlBQuirky

    Once upon a time....

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,221
    AAAMEOW said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    I beg to differ.  Some people have a higher tolerance for pain than others.  Others have a higher tolerance for tedium/repetition than others.  For example, it seems that a certain percentage of players are more willing to put up with grinding or say they actually enjoy grinding (huh?).  As opposed to those of us who are less willing to put up with grinding and are reasonably annoyed when that is one of the few options available to us.  Especially when it is the only option.  (Just because the game developers can't figure out anything else for us to do at End Game.  Or because it's just easier to make us grind than to come up with other ways for high/max level player characters to spend their time.)

    Btw, I still haven't downloaded Legend of Aria.  I actually forgot it about for the last couple days or so.
    It is kind of why I never really believe your philosophy of making games more interesting would do anything.  Most of the popular games are just a bunch of grind and repetition.  

    I think very few people have high tolerance level.  I dont' play Eve but I presume it have harsh death penalty because you don't die all that much.  I think at most 1 hour of wasted time is enough for a death penalty.  

    How many options do players have if they want to play a newer/more modern AAA MMORPG with decent/better graphics? 
    There are like 300 mmorpg out there.  Other game genre have far more players and far less games.  

    If you believe in your idea so much, would you invest all your fortune to make such game?  I guess many people says no.
    Need to have a Fortune before you can Invest a Fortune.

    With that said, in the modern MMO era, the people with money that invest into games, are not investing into many of these ideas
    KyleranAlBQuirky
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,198
    Ungood said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    I beg to differ.  Some people have a higher tolerance for pain than others.  Others have a higher tolerance for tedium/repetition than others.  For example, it seems that a certain percentage of players are more willing to put up with grinding or say they actually enjoy grinding (huh?).  As opposed to those of us who are less willing to put up with grinding and are reasonably annoyed when that is one of the few options available to us.  Especially when it is the only option.  (Just because the game developers can't figure out anything else for us to do at End Game.  Or because it's just easier to make us grind than to come up with other ways for high/max level player characters to spend their time.)

    Btw, I still haven't downloaded Legend of Aria.  I actually forgot it about for the last couple days or so.
    It is kind of why I never really believe your philosophy of making games more interesting would do anything.  Most of the popular games are just a bunch of grind and repetition.  

    I think very few people have high tolerance level.  I dont' play Eve but I presume it have harsh death penalty because you don't die all that much.  I think at most 1 hour of wasted time is enough for a death penalty.  

    How many options do players have if they want to play a newer/more modern AAA MMORPG with decent/better graphics? 
    There are like 300 mmorpg out there.  Other game genre have far more players and far less games.  

    If you believe in your idea so much, would you invest all your fortune to make such game?  I guess many people says no.
    Need to have a Fortune before you can Invest a Fortune.

    With that said, in the modern MMO era, the people with money that invest into games, are not investing into many of these ideas
    Exactly why the topic du jour is what's wrong with MMORPGs. 

    Once upon a time....

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,221
    The whole article can be summed up as Thus:

    Eventually, the currency you are paid — the “reward” — becomes worthless since anyone can “earn” it.
    Every player wants the game to be set in such a way that only they can can get the best stuff and no one else can.

    Funny little bit of irony that the very same people that don't want to be the "Chosen One" when it's scripted, because then everyone is the Chosen One, all want to be.. The Chosen One.. in some unscripted way, where no one else is the Chosen One.




    But see, this is the problem with MMO's, Everyone that wants to be THE Hero also wants that NO ONE else can be The Hero.

    That simply does not work in an Multiplayer game.
    KyleranAlBQuirky
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,198
    edited May 9
    Ungood said:
    The whole article can be summed up as Thus:

    Eventually, the currency you are paid — the “reward” — becomes worthless since anyone can “earn” it.
    Every player wants the game to be set in such a way that only they can can get the best stuff and no one else can.

    Funny little bit of irony that the very same people that don't want to be the "Chosen One" when it's scripted, because then everyone is the Chosen One, all want to be.. The Chosen One.. in some unscripted way, where no one else is the Chosen One.




    But see, this is the problem with MMO's, Everyone that wants to be THE Hero also wants that NO ONE else can be The Hero.

    That simply does not work in an Multiplayer game.
    You are being grossly unfair to people like me. 
    And you are assuming way too much. 

    Maybe it's the gamers who want that guaranteed Hero status are the ones who don't want someone else to be the only one, or one of the few? 
    Is that why some of you expect the guarantee? Because you are afraid that otherwise, you can't achieve it?
    And for the record, I myself don't expect that I would ever be "the hero." I don't even play for that. 

    UO never had "a hero." 
    They had some famous names, but most of them did that by distinguishing themselves in other ways than beating up on the MOBs. 
    Names I remember...
    - Kazola ran her tavern, first ever player owned and run tavern in MMORPGs.
    - Blitz Phoenix was one of the first Rares collectors and provided pics for the page on rare items at Stratics. (There were some others but I don't recall their names.)
    - Maximilian was one of the early Mayors of the RP community in Yew, where they even set up a mail service with an address system. 
    (I met the original mayor, but can't remember his name. I helped him make his final dungeon run in UO, before he left for good. He intended to die in one last adventure.) 
    Max was one of the best RPers I've ever met, RPing in the moment and making it interesting and fun. (Blitz Phoenix too, for that matter.) 
    - Gem founded the Fishing Council of Britannia.
    - The Museum of Memories was founded by Lorak. I knew him as Samuel (iirc) who was a guild leader of an allied anti-PK guild. The Museum was later taken over by Kaelyn, and then later and possibly last by Jim Spellhurler. 
    - Spectre was the MOD at a forum known as "The Mage Tower", while UO was in alpha and beta. He built the first in-game Mage Tower, a place for mages to gather and share information. 
    He later became one of the foremost PKers, and in that status was probably one of the few who were closest to the stereotype of a great fighter of legend. 
    - The most famous of the stereotypical "fighter" types of fame, I can't remember his name now, but he was actually hired by a company making a new game to help design their PvP. Was that AC? Some of you might recall him if I could remember his name. 
    - "og" was perhaps one of the most feared and well known PKers/PvPers in all of UO, as well as some other games. 
    - Platt ran the first major, in-game, auction houses. This was quite a deal. Major "Rare" items were sometimes auctioned off there, as well as lots of other things players wanted. 
    I always suspected he was also part of the Museum of Memories, but I don't know for sure. 
    - Tengam made bows. For some reason his bows always performed better. No one knows why, but the word spread among archers on my shard. He wasn't famous game wide, or even among all the players on my shard, but among dedicated archers his name was known. 

    So you see, most of these "heroes" accomplished it by organization skills, and dedication to something unique. And they did it in a game that was specifically lacking guaranteed "heroism." Because even though UO had Maxed characters just like any other game, and no one will remember the names of those characters, what UO had was a much deeper social aspect to it. 

    --------------
    "And that's why no one will remember your name"
    (You are just like everyone else)




    Ancient_Exiletzervo

    Once upon a time....

  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    edited May 9
    Ungood said:
    The whole article can be summed up as Thus:

    Eventually, the currency you are paid — the “reward” — becomes worthless since anyone can “earn” it.
    Every player wants the game to be set in such a way that only they can can get the best stuff and no one else can.

    Funny little bit of irony that the very same people that don't want to be the "Chosen One" when it's scripted, because then everyone is the Chosen One, all want to be.. The Chosen One.. in some unscripted way, where no one else is the Chosen One.




    But see, this is the problem with MMO's, Everyone that wants to be THE Hero also wants that NO ONE else can be The Hero.

    That simply does not work in an Multiplayer game.

    Even if someone did have dreams of being the greatest hero or villain (or greatest whatever) in an MMORPG, let's not forget the popular adage "there's always someone better than you".  And even if someone did manage to make their character the best at one thing (or even a couple things) in an MMORPG, that doesn't mean their character would be the best at everything. 

    Anyway, my goal principal goal and desire in writing on this forum is to come up with ideas for an MMORPG that I would actually enjoy playing for longer than a couple weeks to a couple months.  And one that I hope others would enjoy playing as well.

    Though it is an evident fact that it would practically be impossible to develop a game that would please everyone.
    Post edited by Ancient_Exile on
    KylerantzervoAlBQuirky
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,357
    Ungood said:
    The whole article can be summed up as Thus:

    Eventually, the currency you are paid — the “reward” — becomes worthless since anyone can “earn” it.
    Every player wants the game to be set in such a way that only they can can get the best stuff and no one else can.

    Funny little bit of irony that the very same people that don't want to be the "Chosen One" when it's scripted, because then everyone is the Chosen One, all want to be.. The Chosen One.. in some unscripted way, where no one else is the Chosen One.




    But see, this is the problem with MMO's, Everyone that wants to be THE Hero also wants that NO ONE else can be The Hero.

    That simply does not work in an Multiplayer game.
    You are being grossly unfair to people like me. 
    And you are assuming way too much. 

    Maybe it's the gamers who want that guaranteed Hero status are the ones who don't want someone else to be the only one, or one of the few? 
    Is that why some of you expect the guarantee? Because you are afraid that otherwise, you can't achieve it?
    And for the record, I myself don't expect that I would ever be "the hero." I don't even play for that. 

    UO never had "a hero." 
    They had some famous names, but most of them did that by distinguishing themselves in other ways than beating up on the MOBs. 
    Names I remember...
    - Kazola ran her tavern, first ever player owned and run tavern in MMORPGs.
    - Blitz Phoenix was one of the first Rares collectors and provided pics for the page on rare items at Stratics. (There were some others but I don't recall their names.)
    - Maximilian was one of the early Mayors of the RP community in Yew, where they even set up a mail service with an address system. 
    (I met the original mayor, but can't remember his name. I helped him make his final dungeon run in UO, before he left for good. He intended to die in one last adventure.) 
    Max was one of the best RPers I've ever met, RPing in the moment and making it interesting and fun. (Blitz Phoenix too, for that matter.) 
    - Gem founded the Fishing Council of Britannia.
    - The Museum of Memories was founded by Lorak. I knew him as Samuel (iirc) who was a guild leader of an allied anti-PK guild. The Museum was later taken over by Kaelyn, and then later and possibly last by Jim Spellhurler. 
    - Spectre was the MOD at a forum known as "The Mage Tower", while UO was in alpha and beta. He built the first in-game Mage Tower, a place for mages to gather and share information. 
    He later became one of the foremost PKers, and in that status was probably one of the few who were closest to the stereotype of a great fighter of legend. 
    - The most famous of the stereotypical "fighter" types of fame, I can't remember his name now, but he was actually hired by a company making a new game to help design their PvP. Was that AC? Some of you might recall him if I could remember his name. 
    - "og" was perhaps one of the most feared and well known PKers/PvPers in all of UO, as well as some other games. 
    - Platt ran the first major, in-game, auction houses. This was quite a deal. Major "Rare" items were sometimes auctioned off there, as well as lots of other things players wanted. 
    I always suspected he was also part of the Museum of Memories, but I don't know for sure. 
    - Tengam made bows. For some reason his bows always performed better. No one knows why, but the word spread among archers on my shard. He wasn't famous game wide, or even among all the players on my shard, but among dedicated archers his name was known. 

    So you see, most of these "heroes" accomplished it by organization skills, and dedication to something unique. And they did it in a game that was specifically lacking guaranteed "heroism." Because even though UO had Maxed characters just like any other game, and no one will remember the names of those characters, what UO had was a much deeper social aspect to it. 

    --------------
    "And that's why no one will remember your name"
    (You are just like everyone else)




    I've never played UO nor heard of any you mentioned, but Fancy the Bard in EQ1, him I've heard legends of....

    But then history well remembers the villains,  heroes not quite so much?

    While most here could recant some story about Ghengis Khan, or Atilla the Hun, few would be able to name the heroes who turned them back, well, at least not without looking it up on Google.
    Ancient_ExileAlBQuirky

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,221
    Ungood said:
    The whole article can be summed up as Thus:

    Eventually, the currency you are paid — the “reward” — becomes worthless since anyone can “earn” it.
    Every player wants the game to be set in such a way that only they can can get the best stuff and no one else can.

    Funny little bit of irony that the very same people that don't want to be the "Chosen One" when it's scripted, because then everyone is the Chosen One, all want to be.. The Chosen One.. in some unscripted way, where no one else is the Chosen One.




    But see, this is the problem with MMO's, Everyone that wants to be THE Hero also wants that NO ONE else can be The Hero.

    That simply does not work in an Multiplayer game.
    You are being grossly unfair to people like me. 
    And you are assuming way too much. 

    Maybe it's the gamers who want that guaranteed Hero status are the ones who don't want someone else to be the only one, or one of the few? 
    Is that why some of you expect the guarantee? Because you are afraid that otherwise, you can't achieve it?
    And for the record, I myself don't expect that I would ever be "the hero." I don't even play for that. 

    If you feel personally victimized by my post, that is totally on your end, I have not called anyone out, I addressed a mentality, not an individual.

    With that said. Like No Duh. Of course the people that want "Guaranteed Hero" stats want to be the Hero, and they Obviously want everyone else to feel like a hero as well, and thus eliminate the e-peen waving and egotism that often surrounds it.

    See that is what primarily divides the two mindsets.

    • You have one group that wants to lift everyone up, so that everyone can enjoy the game, have fun together, and all bask in glory in their own way.
    • You have the Other camp that wants to rip everyone else down to rise themselves up in their own Glory.

    The problem is, that there are too many people that fall in the latter group that want to be heros and famous, all too often fail miserably because they are glory seekers, not decent people, that ends up shining through, and thus they resort to being Trolls for fame, and become the population of PKers, Gankers, and just the Pool Shiters that no one wants in their game to start with, this is because simply put the people that are famous for doing good, are the same people that would be doing good in both gaming environments and become famous for that.

    Like in GW2, people like, Dulfy and ThatShaman Legends. 

    The Whole Server of Jade Quarry was a renowned for being First Place for the longest time, like one huge epic guild.

    Equally so. Maguuma is known for being dicks.

    You don't need death pens and pvp and all that for people to be famous in games, all you need is people willing to rise up and they will rightfully become legends.

    as well as all the safety mechanics in the game won't stop pool shitters from finding a way to become famous for being assholes.

    Everyone else can either content themselves with their Scripted Heroism, or deal with being average nobodies in every way in their game world.
    AlBQuirky
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    The whole article can be summed up as Thus:

    Eventually, the currency you are paid — the “reward” — becomes worthless since anyone can “earn” it.
    Every player wants the game to be set in such a way that only they can can get the best stuff and no one else can.

    Funny little bit of irony that the very same people that don't want to be the "Chosen One" when it's scripted, because then everyone is the Chosen One, all want to be.. The Chosen One.. in some unscripted way, where no one else is the Chosen One.




    But see, this is the problem with MMO's, Everyone that wants to be THE Hero also wants that NO ONE else can be The Hero.

    That simply does not work in an Multiplayer game.
    You are being grossly unfair to people like me. 
    And you are assuming way too much. 

    Maybe it's the gamers who want that guaranteed Hero status are the ones who don't want someone else to be the only one, or one of the few? 
    Is that why some of you expect the guarantee? Because you are afraid that otherwise, you can't achieve it?
    And for the record, I myself don't expect that I would ever be "the hero." I don't even play for that. 

    If you feel personally victimized by my post, that is totally on your end, I have not called anyone out, I addressed a mentality, not an individual.

    With that said. Like No Duh. Of course the people that want "Guaranteed Hero" stats want to be the Hero, and they Obviously want everyone else to feel like a hero as well, and thus eliminate the e-peen waving and egotism that often surrounds it.

    See that is what primarily divides the two mindsets.

    • You have one group that wants to lift everyone up, so that everyone can enjoy the game, have fun together, and all bask in glory in their own way.
    • You have the Other camp that wants to rip everyone else down to rise themselves up in their own Glory.

    The problem is, that there are too many people that fall in the latter group that want to be heros and famous, all too often fail miserably because they are glory seekers, not decent people, that ends up shining through, and thus they resort to being Trolls for fame, and become the population of PKers, Gankers, and just the Pool Shiters that no one wants in their game to start with, this is because simply put the people that are famous for doing good, are the same people that would be doing good in both gaming environments and become famous for that.

    Like in GW2, people like, Dulfy and ThatShaman Legends. 

    The Whole Server of Jade Quarry was a renowned for being First Place for the longest time, like one huge epic guild.

    Equally so. Maguuma is known for being dicks.

    You don't need death pens and pvp and all that for people to be famous in games, all you need is people willing to rise up and they will rightfully become legends.

    as well as all the safety mechanics in the game won't stop pool shitters from finding a way to become famous for being assholes.

    Everyone else can either content themselves with their Scripted Heroism, or deal with being average nobodies in every way in their game world.

    If everyone is rich, no one is rich.  Because if everyone had a 1 billion dollars, 1 billion dollars would not be worth as much. 

    If everyone was really smart, how would we know that everyone was really smart?  There would be no one less smart to which we could compare ourselves.

    If everyone was good, how would we even know what being good meant?  The only way we know what being good means is if we are able to compare ourselves to someone who is better or worse than us.

    If everyone is an adventurer with uber-magical gear, then being an adventurer with uber-magical gear quickly loses its charm.

    If everyone is a hero, then no one is a hero. 
    AlBQuirky
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,198
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    The whole article can be summed up as Thus:

    Eventually, the currency you are paid — the “reward” — becomes worthless since anyone can “earn” it.
    Every player wants the game to be set in such a way that only they can can get the best stuff and no one else can.

    Funny little bit of irony that the very same people that don't want to be the "Chosen One" when it's scripted, because then everyone is the Chosen One, all want to be.. The Chosen One.. in some unscripted way, where no one else is the Chosen One.




    But see, this is the problem with MMO's, Everyone that wants to be THE Hero also wants that NO ONE else can be The Hero.

    That simply does not work in an Multiplayer game.
    You are being grossly unfair to people like me. 
    And you are assuming way too much. 

    Maybe it's the gamers who want that guaranteed Hero status are the ones who don't want someone else to be the only one, or one of the few? 
    Is that why some of you expect the guarantee? Because you are afraid that otherwise, you can't achieve it?
    And for the record, I myself don't expect that I would ever be "the hero." I don't even play for that. 

    If you feel personally victimized by my post, that is totally on your end, I have not called anyone out, I addressed a mentality, not an individual.

    With that said. Like No Duh. Of course the people that want "Guaranteed Hero" stats want to be the Hero, and they Obviously want everyone else to feel like a hero as well, and thus eliminate the e-peen waving and egotism that often surrounds it.

    See that is what primarily divides the two mindsets.

    • You have one group that wants to lift everyone up, so that everyone can enjoy the game, have fun together, and all bask in glory in their own way.
    • You have the Other camp that wants to rip everyone else down to rise themselves up in their own Glory.

    The problem is, that there are too many people that fall in the latter group that want to be heros and famous, all too often fail miserably because they are glory seekers, not decent people, that ends up shining through, and thus they resort to being Trolls for fame, and become the population of PKers, Gankers, and just the Pool Shiters that no one wants in their game to start with, this is because simply put the people that are famous for doing good, are the same people that would be doing good in both gaming environments and become famous for that.

    Like in GW2, people like, Dulfy and ThatShaman Legends. 

    The Whole Server of Jade Quarry was a renowned for being First Place for the longest time, like one huge epic guild.

    Equally so. Maguuma is known for being dicks.

    You don't need death pens and pvp and all that for people to be famous in games, all you need is people willing to rise up and they will rightfully become legends.

    as well as all the safety mechanics in the game won't stop pool shitters from finding a way to become famous for being assholes.

    Everyone else can either content themselves with their Scripted Heroism, or deal with being average nobodies in every way in their game world.
    I didn't take it personally. I said "people like me." 
    And yet you still cling to your assumptions of "people like me."
    I guess my explanation fell on deaf ears. 

    Once upon a time....

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,198
    Kyleran said:
    Ungood said:
    The whole article can be summed up as Thus:

    Eventually, the currency you are paid — the “reward” — becomes worthless since anyone can “earn” it.
    Every player wants the game to be set in such a way that only they can can get the best stuff and no one else can.

    Funny little bit of irony that the very same people that don't want to be the "Chosen One" when it's scripted, because then everyone is the Chosen One, all want to be.. The Chosen One.. in some unscripted way, where no one else is the Chosen One.




    But see, this is the problem with MMO's, Everyone that wants to be THE Hero also wants that NO ONE else can be The Hero.

    That simply does not work in an Multiplayer game.
    You are being grossly unfair to people like me. 
    And you are assuming way too much. 

    Maybe it's the gamers who want that guaranteed Hero status are the ones who don't want someone else to be the only one, or one of the few? 
    Is that why some of you expect the guarantee? Because you are afraid that otherwise, you can't achieve it?
    And for the record, I myself don't expect that I would ever be "the hero." I don't even play for that. 

    UO never had "a hero." 
    They had some famous names, but most of them did that by distinguishing themselves in other ways than beating up on the MOBs. 
    Names I remember...
    - Kazola ran her tavern, first ever player owned and run tavern in MMORPGs.
    - Blitz Phoenix was one of the first Rares collectors and provided pics for the page on rare items at Stratics. (There were some others but I don't recall their names.)
    - Maximilian was one of the early Mayors of the RP community in Yew, where they even set up a mail service with an address system. 
    (I met the original mayor, but can't remember his name. I helped him make his final dungeon run in UO, before he left for good. He intended to die in one last adventure.) 
    Max was one of the best RPers I've ever met, RPing in the moment and making it interesting and fun. (Blitz Phoenix too, for that matter.) 
    - Gem founded the Fishing Council of Britannia.
    - The Museum of Memories was founded by Lorak. I knew him as Samuel (iirc) who was a guild leader of an allied anti-PK guild. The Museum was later taken over by Kaelyn, and then later and possibly last by Jim Spellhurler. 
    - Spectre was the MOD at a forum known as "The Mage Tower", while UO was in alpha and beta. He built the first in-game Mage Tower, a place for mages to gather and share information. 
    He later became one of the foremost PKers, and in that status was probably one of the few who were closest to the stereotype of a great fighter of legend. 
    - The most famous of the stereotypical "fighter" types of fame, I can't remember his name now, but he was actually hired by a company making a new game to help design their PvP. Was that AC? Some of you might recall him if I could remember his name. 
    - "og" was perhaps one of the most feared and well known PKers/PvPers in all of UO, as well as some other games. 
    - Platt ran the first major, in-game, auction houses. This was quite a deal. Major "Rare" items were sometimes auctioned off there, as well as lots of other things players wanted. 
    I always suspected he was also part of the Museum of Memories, but I don't know for sure. 
    - Tengam made bows. For some reason his bows always performed better. No one knows why, but the word spread among archers on my shard. He wasn't famous game wide, or even among all the players on my shard, but among dedicated archers his name was known. 

    So you see, most of these "heroes" accomplished it by organization skills, and dedication to something unique. And they did it in a game that was specifically lacking guaranteed "heroism." Because even though UO had Maxed characters just like any other game, and no one will remember the names of those characters, what UO had was a much deeper social aspect to it. 

    --------------
    "And that's why no one will remember your name"
    (You are just like everyone else)




    I've never played UO nor heard of any you mentioned, but Fancy the Bard in EQ1, him I've heard legends of....

    But then history well remembers the villains,  heroes not quite so much?

    While most here could recant some story about Ghengis Khan, or Atilla the Hun, few would be able to name the heroes who turned them back, well, at least not without looking it up on Google.

    I never heard of Fancy the Bard either, since I didn't play EQ. 

    But those people I mentioned, most of them were famous not for being "evil", but for doing something positive. 
    I guess it depends on a person's definition of "hero" to an extent. 


    Once upon a time....

  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member RarePosts: 1,135
    AlBQuirky said:
    It seems that some players feel failure is a punishment. And that's cool.

    Other players feel failure is just failure. And that's cool.

    In the MMO games of today, I don't feel one iota of "punishment" in a game where I am max level in 2 weeks tops. World of Warcraft's "death penalty" I have used as a means of fast travel, it's so piddly.

    I just don't feel "punished" by failure, but understand how some players can. Is that more of  true "fear of failure" than I have? :lol:
    It goes back to that "blue ribbon" thing. 
    It's not fear of "punishment", it's expectations of success as "a given." 
    And I'm sorry, but I don't see that as being fine. I see it as an issue. 

    The real world awaits to slap some sense into those people. 
    And then they (most of them) are going to start blaming everybody/thing but themselves. 
    (Apologies, but that's the truth.) 

    these games are not doing anyone any favors by giving them all that they want. In fact, doing the opposite. 

    The real world is adept in the application of punishment, to the point where many feel a need to take a break from it to refresh to better sustain the next incoming wave.

    I can see how games with little in the way or repercussion can be favourable to some.

    If you expect to just be handed success 
    (as in guaranteed gains without loss in games) 
    then you have been victimized by this thinking. 

    I know it sounds harsh to some people, but to them I say, what kind of person are you? Where's your pride? 

    It's sad that many gamers look at their MMORPGs as a form of instant gratification rather than an experience with some depth. 

    Still, I have to respect their rights, if not their choice. 

    I expect that those playing games do not have a uniform preference for difficulty and reward.  I expect those playing games do not all share the same motivation in either nature or degree. I consider none of these varied preferences and motivations to be inherently superior.

    I believe that the contention a preference for lower difficulty is equivalent in all cases to a desire for instant gratification over depth and indicative of a lack of personal pride is an oversimplification with questionable foundation.
  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member RarePosts: 1,135
    Sovrath said:
    Sovrath said:
    Are the people who think that such things like "death penalties = punishment" much younger, in their twenties players?

    Penalty by definition is punishment. It is not a thought based issue.

    A difference in age may factor into how a punishment is viewed, but that is far from certain. I haven't seen my twenties for quite some time and personally don't see value in penalties beyond the time wasted due to failure.
    Well, that's why I asked the question. "Could" it be generational? I don't know but it's worth exploring.

    The difference in perception by generation, possibly.

    That penalty is other than punishment, not in the least.
  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    edited May 10
    Sovrath said:
    Sovrath said:
    Are the people who think that such things like "death penalties = punishment" much younger, in their twenties players?

    Penalty by definition is punishment. It is not a thought based issue.

    A difference in age may factor into how a punishment is viewed, but that is far from certain. I haven't seen my twenties for quite some time and personally don't see value in penalties beyond the time wasted due to failure.
    Well, that's why I asked the question. "Could" it be generational? I don't know but it's worth exploring.

    The difference in perception by generation, possibly.

    That penalty is other than punishment, not in the least.

    "2a : suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution
    b : a penalty inflicted on an offender through judicial procedure"



    On the last stage left of Super Mario Bros., only one life left.  This is my last chance to defeat King Koopa.  If I don't beat him now, I'm gonna have to start all over again from the very beginning.  Better make this count.

    Final Fantasy SPRPG - If I don't beat the last boss this time, I'll have to start again from my last save point.  Which means I'll have to wade through all those mobs for a half hour before I can try again.  OR Oh, well, I lost that battle.  At least I saved...Oh wait.  Dammit!  I forgot to save!  Now I have to play through the last 2 or 3 years all over again.


    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,099
    Ungood said:
    The whole article can be summed up as Thus:

    Eventually, the currency you are paid — the “reward” — becomes worthless since anyone can “earn” it.
    Every player wants the game to be set in such a way that only they can can get the best stuff and no one else can.

    Funny little bit of irony that the very same people that don't want to be the "Chosen One" when it's scripted, because then everyone is the Chosen One, all want to be.. The Chosen One.. in some unscripted way, where no one else is the Chosen One.




    But see, this is the problem with MMO's, Everyone that wants to be THE Hero also wants that NO ONE else can be The Hero.

    That simply does not work in an Multiplayer game.
    You are being grossly unfair to people like me. 
    And you are assuming way too much. 

    Maybe it's the gamers who want that guaranteed Hero status are the ones who don't want someone else to be the only one, or one of the few? 
    Is that why some of you expect the guarantee? Because you are afraid that otherwise, you can't achieve it?
    And for the record, I myself don't expect that I would ever be "the hero." I don't even play for that. 

    UO never had "a hero." 
    They had some famous names, but most of them did that by distinguishing themselves in other ways than beating up on the MOBs. 
    Names I remember...
    - Kazola ran her tavern, first ever player owned and run tavern in MMORPGs.
    - Blitz Phoenix was one of the first Rares collectors and provided pics for the page on rare items at Stratics. (There were some others but I don't recall their names.)
    - Maximilian was one of the early Mayors of the RP community in Yew, where they even set up a mail service with an address system. 
    (I met the original mayor, but can't remember his name. I helped him make his final dungeon run in UO, before he left for good. He intended to die in one last adventure.) 
    Max was one of the best RPers I've ever met, RPing in the moment and making it interesting and fun. (Blitz Phoenix too, for that matter.) 
    - Gem founded the Fishing Council of Britannia.
    - The Museum of Memories was founded by Lorak. I knew him as Samuel (iirc) who was a guild leader of an allied anti-PK guild. The Museum was later taken over by Kaelyn, and then later and possibly last by Jim Spellhurler. 
    - Spectre was the MOD at a forum known as "The Mage Tower", while UO was in alpha and beta. He built the first in-game Mage Tower, a place for mages to gather and share information. 
    He later became one of the foremost PKers, and in that status was probably one of the few who were closest to the stereotype of a great fighter of legend. 
    - The most famous of the stereotypical "fighter" types of fame, I can't remember his name now, but he was actually hired by a company making a new game to help design their PvP. Was that AC? Some of you might recall him if I could remember his name. 
    - "og" was perhaps one of the most feared and well known PKers/PvPers in all of UO, as well as some other games. 
    - Platt ran the first major, in-game, auction houses. This was quite a deal. Major "Rare" items were sometimes auctioned off there, as well as lots of other things players wanted. 
    I always suspected he was also part of the Museum of Memories, but I don't know for sure. 
    - Tengam made bows. For some reason his bows always performed better. No one knows why, but the word spread among archers on my shard. He wasn't famous game wide, or even among all the players on my shard, but among dedicated archers his name was known. 

    So you see, most of these "heroes" accomplished it by organization skills, and dedication to something unique. And they did it in a game that was specifically lacking guaranteed "heroism." Because even though UO had Maxed characters just like any other game, and no one will remember the names of those characters, what UO had was a much deeper social aspect to it. 

    --------------
    "And that's why no one will remember your name"
    (You are just like everyone else)




    Definitely fought an unarmed guy on Darktide named og. He never spoke. Just did grunts or something.

    Ancient_Exile
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,221
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    The whole article can be summed up as Thus:

    Eventually, the currency you are paid — the “reward” — becomes worthless since anyone can “earn” it.
    Every player wants the game to be set in such a way that only they can can get the best stuff and no one else can.

    Funny little bit of irony that the very same people that don't want to be the "Chosen One" when it's scripted, because then everyone is the Chosen One, all want to be.. The Chosen One.. in some unscripted way, where no one else is the Chosen One.




    But see, this is the problem with MMO's, Everyone that wants to be THE Hero also wants that NO ONE else can be The Hero.

    That simply does not work in an Multiplayer game.
    You are being grossly unfair to people like me. 
    And you are assuming way too much. 

    Maybe it's the gamers who want that guaranteed Hero status are the ones who don't want someone else to be the only one, or one of the few? 
    Is that why some of you expect the guarantee? Because you are afraid that otherwise, you can't achieve it?
    And for the record, I myself don't expect that I would ever be "the hero." I don't even play for that. 

    If you feel personally victimized by my post, that is totally on your end, I have not called anyone out, I addressed a mentality, not an individual.

    With that said. Like No Duh. Of course the people that want "Guaranteed Hero" stats want to be the Hero, and they Obviously want everyone else to feel like a hero as well, and thus eliminate the e-peen waving and egotism that often surrounds it.

    See that is what primarily divides the two mindsets.

    • You have one group that wants to lift everyone up, so that everyone can enjoy the game, have fun together, and all bask in glory in their own way.
    • You have the Other camp that wants to rip everyone else down to rise themselves up in their own Glory.

    The problem is, that there are too many people that fall in the latter group that want to be heros and famous, all too often fail miserably because they are glory seekers, not decent people, that ends up shining through, and thus they resort to being Trolls for fame, and become the population of PKers, Gankers, and just the Pool Shiters that no one wants in their game to start with, this is because simply put the people that are famous for doing good, are the same people that would be doing good in both gaming environments and become famous for that.

    Like in GW2, people like, Dulfy and ThatShaman Legends. 

    The Whole Server of Jade Quarry was a renowned for being First Place for the longest time, like one huge epic guild.

    Equally so. Maguuma is known for being dicks.

    You don't need death pens and pvp and all that for people to be famous in games, all you need is people willing to rise up and they will rightfully become legends.

    as well as all the safety mechanics in the game won't stop pool shitters from finding a way to become famous for being assholes.

    Everyone else can either content themselves with their Scripted Heroism, or deal with being average nobodies in every way in their game world.

    If everyone is rich, no one is rich.  Because if everyone had a 1 billion dollars, 1 billion dollars would not be worth as much. 

    If everyone was really smart, how would we know that everyone was really smart?  There would be no one less smart to which we could compare ourselves.

    If everyone was good, how would we even know what being good meant?  The only way we know what being good means is if we are able to compare ourselves to someone who is better or worse than us.

    If everyone is an adventurer with uber-magical gear, then being an adventurer with uber-magical gear quickly loses its charm.

    If everyone is a hero, then no one is a hero. 
    Bingo.. and reality is, we are not Hero's, we are just average everyday nobodies that play games, we jump into these worlds of escapism to pretend to be heros, to have our epic uber gear, and our millions of coins, and the sooner we all embrace that, the less we need to dicks to everyone else playing the same game as us.

    Now maybe some people need to play zero sum games, maybe they need to shit on other people to feel better about themselves, maybe they are deep down Cartman's, where they only want something because no one else has it.

    Maybe some people are that petty. For me, I simply do not grasp that mentality.

    Case in Point. In DDO, my Lit II Green Steel Greatsword does not do less damage because everyone else in the party also has a Supreme Tyrant Green Steel Weapon or Weapons, it just makes the dungeons go faster.

    When I made my first Green Steel weapon, the other people I was raiding with, a open PUG I might add, congratulated me on making my first piece. Strangers and Friends alike were happy for my progress and accomplishment, and in turn as I played, I found myself being happy for the progress of others.

    To use another Example.

    When I finally made Astralaria in GW2, it didn't make it any less an Accomplishment for me to make that, simply because a huge number of other people also made it, and most did it before me.

    As tradition, I linked in Lions Arch the parts before I crafted the weapon in GW2, and the there people congratulated me on making a Legendary, my first and only, even people who had a dozen of them, where happy for me to finally make one of my own. Others talked about their own progress and it turned into a grand event of us cheering each other on and not to give up. 

    That is what sets the mentality of difference between the game ideas and the nature of the people that play them, where in a game world players are supportive and happy for each others progress, they did not view it as a threat to their own.

    What you are putting out is a game world full of players that view each others progress as a threat to their own. 

    Sounds like what you are looking for is a game world full of bitter jealous petty players, while I wish you well in finding that world, that sure as hell does not something I would want to do for fun filled fantasy escapism. 

    AlBQuirky
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
This discussion has been closed.