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Do MMORPGs Need to Allow the Use of Macros?

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  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,398
    edited April 29
    AlBQuirky said:
    Macros. They help in the prevention of carpal tunnel like in crafting, can help when more keys are needed in a rotation than people have fingers, and can also be used for "AFK activities."


    There was a new PC D3 player recently on reddit with serious hand mobility issues looking for ideas on classes and builds that could be played with minimal keyboard mashing.

    He was ecstatic when I linked him a video of how to do a secondary binding of the action keys to numpad numbers so that skills could be auto-cast on cooldown. It's D3's unofficial macro system that Blizzard has never officially sanctioned or unsanctioned although they have featured builds that make use of it on a few of their community spotlight videos.

    It's a real help for some and convenient as hell for the rest of us lazy bastards who use it for those temporary buffs on cooldown that D3 has a shit-ton of :)
    Ancient_ExileAlBQuirky
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • cameltosiscameltosis Member EpicPosts: 2,586
    I've never had a problem with macros.

    They are only usually useful when doing something repetitive - like executing a rotation or grinding through some crafting. I have no problem if people want to automate those sorts of things, it wont make them any better than me and if it makes the game more enjoyable for them, then good luck to them.
    Ancient_ExileAlBQuirkyIselin
  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    AlBQuirky said:
    Macros. They help in the prevention of carpal tunnel like in crafting, can help when more keys are needed in a rotation than people have fingers, and can also be used for "AFK activities."

    My only experience with them was in EQ1 that had macros built in. It was with my Bard and I macro'd 2 song rotations (3 songs each) for combat. In that game, your abilities did not fire off automatically as many of them could fail. I stopped using the macros when my songs "failed" to play ("You missed a note...") and I found myself having to hit a song 2 or 3 times to get it fired off. In today's "always succeed" designs, I don't see that specific problem :smile:

    If players want them, why not give the option?

    PS: Cheaters will always find ways around the rules...

    I see your point.  Some classes (or even all classes) have a lot of different skills and abilities in certain games.  Mages and priests especially could have a lot of different spells to choose from.  AD&D 2nd Edition dealt with this by only allowing a certain number of spells/prayers to be memorized/prepared for each day.  Though I believe later editions removed that.  And I could see how that could be problematic for MMORPGs with more frequent day and night cycles.  Especially those without day & night cycles (which is lame).  However, I do believe that MMORPGs should refrain from giving classes too many skills & abilities.  Seems like the number of skills available to use starts getting out of control when reaching the higher levels in certain games.  Needing to have 4 or 5 hotbars on the screen is a little much, IMO. 

    Plus, some room should be leftover for non-combat skills.  Which I believe should become a greater part of MMORPG design in the future.  The decision to make MMORPGs mostly about combat caused a lot of problems.  And has had very illogical results in the design of many, if not most, of these games.  Warrior classes (Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Barbarian, etc.) should be the main damage dealers.  They are stronger and wield heavier weapons.  Also, they are more skilled at fighting than other classes and have a better chance to hit.  Rogues (Thieves, Bards, etc.) really shine when it comes to their non-combat skills.  Backstab is not something that can be used all the time.  Nor should rogues have some magical ability to disappear as if they're all wearing the One Ring.  Mages and Priests have a lot of non-combat spells/prayers that could be very useful and important in a variety of situations and encounters.
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,835
    kilun said:
    SWG had macros built in.

    And Macros allow you to do multiple things (use multiple skills & abilities) by hitting one key or to automate a series of keystrokes and mouse movements.  But this can provide macro-using players a definite advantage over players who don't use macros in PVP, right?
    Yes it is used even in the big dog Fortnite and i bet 95% don't have a clue about it.Advantage in pvp...most certainly is.One of my biggest peeves are pvp games that require lighting use of the keyboard.I do not believe it tells the true skills of a player by whomever is better on a keyboard and even worse it encourages players to use these macros to cheat or ease the design flaw.

    In pvp macros are a huge advantage.The first time i heard about them was during my UT99 days,there were some insane macros being written by some pretty smart people.

    IDK the exact start of prominent macro use but i bet UT99 is right there as one the first.

    If a game developer allows a certain amount of lines per macro,that is ok because it is by design.However now a days players use scripts in a way that can do far more than the design allows,like instead of 6 lines maybe 36 lines.
    Ancient_Exile

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,234
    edited April 30
    AlBQuirky said:
    Macros. They help in the prevention of carpal tunnel like in crafting, can help when more keys are needed in a rotation than people have fingers, and can also be used for "AFK activities."

    My only experience with them was in EQ1 that had macros built in. It was with my Bard and I macro'd 2 song rotations (3 songs each) for combat. In that game, your abilities did not fire off automatically as many of them could fail. I stopped using the macros when my songs "failed" to play ("You missed a note...") and I found myself having to hit a song 2 or 3 times to get it fired off. In today's "always succeed" designs, I don't see that specific problem :smile:

    If players want them, why not give the option?

    PS: Cheaters will always find ways around the rules...

    I see your point.  Some classes (or even all classes) have a lot of different skills and abilities in certain games.  Mages and priests especially could have a lot of different spells to choose from.  AD&D 2nd Edition dealt with this by only allowing a certain number of spells/prayers to be memorized/prepared for each day.  Though I believe later editions removed that.  And I could see how that could be problematic for MMORPGs with more frequent day and night cycles.  Especially those without day & night cycles (which is lame).  However, I do believe that MMORPGs should refrain from giving classes too many skills & abilities.  Seems like the number of skills available to use starts getting out of control when reaching the higher levels in certain games.  Needing to have 4 or 5 hotbars on the screen is a little much, IMO. 

    Plus, some room should be leftover for non-combat skills.  Which I believe should become a greater part of MMORPG design in the future.  The decision to make MMORPGs mostly about combat caused a lot of problems.  And has had very illogical results in the design of many, if not most, of these games.  Warrior classes (Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Barbarian, etc.) should be the main damage dealers.  They are stronger and wield heavier weapons.  Also, they are more skilled at fighting than other classes and have a better chance to hit.  Rogues (Thieves, Bards, etc.) really shine when it comes to their non-combat skills.  Backstab is not something that can be used all the time.  Nor should rogues have some magical ability to disappear as if they're all wearing the One Ring.  Mages and Priests have a lot of non-combat spells/prayers that could be very useful and important in a variety of situations and encounters.

    The problems stem from Magic Users gaining spells. Fighters don't get those. Neither do Rogues. So spellcasters "feel" their advancement much better than a fighter who learns how to swing a sword, hammer, or mace.

    Non-combat skills would help, but we all know MMOs are now just "killing simulators" and thus lost their "RPG" aspect :)

    So you can either take away spellcasters spells, or give more abilities/skills to warriors.

    I think we can tell which games went, and it's not a "bad" thing to me :)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    edited April 30
    AlBQuirky said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Macros. They help in the prevention of carpal tunnel like in crafting, can help when more keys are needed in a rotation than people have fingers, and can also be used for "AFK activities."

    My only experience with them was in EQ1 that had macros built in. It was with my Bard and I macro'd 2 song rotations (3 songs each) for combat. In that game, your abilities did not fire off automatically as many of them could fail. I stopped using the macros when my songs "failed" to play ("You missed a note...") and I found myself having to hit a song 2 or 3 times to get it fired off. In today's "always succeed" designs, I don't see that specific problem :smile:

    If players want them, why not give the option?

    PS: Cheaters will always find ways around the rules...

    I see your point.  Some classes (or even all classes) have a lot of different skills and abilities in certain games.  Mages and priests especially could have a lot of different spells to choose from.  AD&D 2nd Edition dealt with this by only allowing a certain number of spells/prayers to be memorized/prepared for each day.  Though I believe later editions removed that.  And I could see how that could be problematic for MMORPGs with more frequent day and night cycles.  Especially those without day & night cycles (which is lame).  However, I do believe that MMORPGs should refrain from giving classes too many skills & abilities.  Seems like the number of skills available to use starts getting out of control when reaching the higher levels in certain games.  Needing to have 4 or 5 hotbars on the screen is a little much, IMO. 

    Plus, some room should be leftover for non-combat skills.  Which I believe should become a greater part of MMORPG design in the future.  The decision to make MMORPGs mostly about combat caused a lot of problems.  And has had very illogical results in the design of many, if not most, of these games.  Warrior classes (Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Barbarian, etc.) should be the main damage dealers.  They are stronger and wield heavier weapons.  Also, they are more skilled at fighting than other classes and have a better chance to hit.  Rogues (Thieves, Bards, etc.) really shine when it comes to their non-combat skills.  Backstab is not something that can be used all the time.  Nor should rogues have some magical ability to disappear as if they're all wearing the One Ring.  Mages and Priests have a lot of non-combat spells/prayers that could be very useful and important in a variety of situations and encounters.

    The problems stem from Magic Users gaining spells. Fighters don't get those. Neither do Rogues. So spellcasters "feel" their advancement much better than a fighter who learns how to swing a sword, hammer, or mace.

    Non-combat skills would help, but we all know MMOs are now just "killing simulators" and thus lost their "RPG" aspect :)

    So you can either take away spellcasters spells, or give more abilities/skills to warriors.

    I think we can tell which games went, and it's not a "bad" thing to me :)

    Have you ever played AD&D (the Pencil & Paper + Imagination kind)?
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,234
    AlBQuirky said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Macros. They help in the prevention of carpal tunnel like in crafting, can help when more keys are needed in a rotation than people have fingers, and can also be used for "AFK activities."

    My only experience with them was in EQ1 that had macros built in. It was with my Bard and I macro'd 2 song rotations (3 songs each) for combat. In that game, your abilities did not fire off automatically as many of them could fail. I stopped using the macros when my songs "failed" to play ("You missed a note...") and I found myself having to hit a song 2 or 3 times to get it fired off. In today's "always succeed" designs, I don't see that specific problem :smile:

    If players want them, why not give the option?

    PS: Cheaters will always find ways around the rules...

    I see your point.  Some classes (or even all classes) have a lot of different skills and abilities in certain games.  Mages and priests especially could have a lot of different spells to choose from.  AD&D 2nd Edition dealt with this by only allowing a certain number of spells/prayers to be memorized/prepared for each day.  Though I believe later editions removed that.  And I could see how that could be problematic for MMORPGs with more frequent day and night cycles.  Especially those without day & night cycles (which is lame).  However, I do believe that MMORPGs should refrain from giving classes too many skills & abilities.  Seems like the number of skills available to use starts getting out of control when reaching the higher levels in certain games.  Needing to have 4 or 5 hotbars on the screen is a little much, IMO. 

    Plus, some room should be leftover for non-combat skills.  Which I believe should become a greater part of MMORPG design in the future.  The decision to make MMORPGs mostly about combat caused a lot of problems.  And has had very illogical results in the design of many, if not most, of these games.  Warrior classes (Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Barbarian, etc.) should be the main damage dealers.  They are stronger and wield heavier weapons.  Also, they are more skilled at fighting than other classes and have a better chance to hit.  Rogues (Thieves, Bards, etc.) really shine when it comes to their non-combat skills.  Backstab is not something that can be used all the time.  Nor should rogues have some magical ability to disappear as if they're all wearing the One Ring.  Mages and Priests have a lot of non-combat spells/prayers that could be very useful and important in a variety of situations and encounters.

    The problems stem from Magic Users gaining spells. Fighters don't get those. Neither do Rogues. So spellcasters "feel" their advancement much better than a fighter who learns how to swing a sword, hammer, or mace.

    Non-combat skills would help, but we all know MMOs are now just "killing simulators" and thus lost their "RPG" aspect :)

    So you can either take away spellcasters spells, or give more abilities/skills to warriors.

    I think we can tell which games went, and it's not a "bad" thing to me :)

    Have you ever played AD&D (the Pencil & Paper + Imagination kind)?

    Yes. Fighters got 3 attacks every 2 rounds at 4th(?) level and 2 attacks per round at, I think, 7th. Wizards got a new spell every other level. More if they found scrolls to scribe to their spellbooks. Everyone got new hit points every level up, though :)

    AD&D had no BAB (Base Attack Bonus) like the newer versions do, that increase everything (skills/saves/to hit chances/spell accuracy and saves) every 2 levels. No attribute "just got better" every 4 levels.

    Also, Fireballs, Lightning Bolts, and Cones of Cold are nothing to sneeze at. Warriors are not the "best" damage dealers, just good at what they do :)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    AlBQuirky said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Macros. They help in the prevention of carpal tunnel like in crafting, can help when more keys are needed in a rotation than people have fingers, and can also be used for "AFK activities."

    My only experience with them was in EQ1 that had macros built in. It was with my Bard and I macro'd 2 song rotations (3 songs each) for combat. In that game, your abilities did not fire off automatically as many of them could fail. I stopped using the macros when my songs "failed" to play ("You missed a note...") and I found myself having to hit a song 2 or 3 times to get it fired off. In today's "always succeed" designs, I don't see that specific problem :smile:

    If players want them, why not give the option?

    PS: Cheaters will always find ways around the rules...

    I see your point.  Some classes (or even all classes) have a lot of different skills and abilities in certain games.  Mages and priests especially could have a lot of different spells to choose from.  AD&D 2nd Edition dealt with this by only allowing a certain number of spells/prayers to be memorized/prepared for each day.  Though I believe later editions removed that.  And I could see how that could be problematic for MMORPGs with more frequent day and night cycles.  Especially those without day & night cycles (which is lame).  However, I do believe that MMORPGs should refrain from giving classes too many skills & abilities.  Seems like the number of skills available to use starts getting out of control when reaching the higher levels in certain games.  Needing to have 4 or 5 hotbars on the screen is a little much, IMO. 

    Plus, some room should be leftover for non-combat skills.  Which I believe should become a greater part of MMORPG design in the future.  The decision to make MMORPGs mostly about combat caused a lot of problems.  And has had very illogical results in the design of many, if not most, of these games.  Warrior classes (Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Barbarian, etc.) should be the main damage dealers.  They are stronger and wield heavier weapons.  Also, they are more skilled at fighting than other classes and have a better chance to hit.  Rogues (Thieves, Bards, etc.) really shine when it comes to their non-combat skills.  Backstab is not something that can be used all the time.  Nor should rogues have some magical ability to disappear as if they're all wearing the One Ring.  Mages and Priests have a lot of non-combat spells/prayers that could be very useful and important in a variety of situations and encounters.

    The problems stem from Magic Users gaining spells. Fighters don't get those. Neither do Rogues. So spellcasters "feel" their advancement much better than a fighter who learns how to swing a sword, hammer, or mace.

    Non-combat skills would help, but we all know MMOs are now just "killing simulators" and thus lost their "RPG" aspect :)

    So you can either take away spellcasters spells, or give more abilities/skills to warriors.

    I think we can tell which games went, and it's not a "bad" thing to me :)

    Have you ever played AD&D (the Pencil & Paper + Imagination kind)?

    Yes. Fighters got 3 attacks every 2 rounds at 4th(?) level and 2 attacks per round at, I think, 7th. Wizards got a new spell every other level. More if they found scrolls to scribe to their spellbooks. Everyone got new hit points every level up, though :)

    AD&D had no BAB (Base Attack Bonus) like the newer versions do, that increase everything (skills/saves/to hit chances/spell accuracy and saves) every 2 levels. No attribute "just got better" every 4 levels.

    Also, Fireballs, Lightning Bolts, and Cones of Cold are nothing to sneeze at. Warriors are not the "best" damage dealers, just good at what they do :)

    Well, I'm thinking of 2nd Edition where Mages could only memorize a certain amount of spells a day (depending on their level and INT bonus [I think]).  So while some spells might do a lot of damage, the warrior classes could do their damage a lot more often. 

    How do spells work in the more recent editions of D&D?  Do Mages and Priests have something like Magic/Mana Points now?

    Also, do warriors (and other classes) still gain weapon proficiencies and non-weapon/non-combat proficiencies/skills as they level?


    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,234
    AlBQuirky said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Macros. They help in the prevention of carpal tunnel like in crafting, can help when more keys are needed in a rotation than people have fingers, and can also be used for "AFK activities."

    My only experience with them was in EQ1 that had macros built in. It was with my Bard and I macro'd 2 song rotations (3 songs each) for combat. In that game, your abilities did not fire off automatically as many of them could fail. I stopped using the macros when my songs "failed" to play ("You missed a note...") and I found myself having to hit a song 2 or 3 times to get it fired off. In today's "always succeed" designs, I don't see that specific problem :smile:

    If players want them, why not give the option?

    PS: Cheaters will always find ways around the rules...

    I see your point.  Some classes (or even all classes) have a lot of different skills and abilities in certain games.  Mages and priests especially could have a lot of different spells to choose from.  AD&D 2nd Edition dealt with this by only allowing a certain number of spells/prayers to be memorized/prepared for each day.  Though I believe later editions removed that.  And I could see how that could be problematic for MMORPGs with more frequent day and night cycles.  Especially those without day & night cycles (which is lame).  However, I do believe that MMORPGs should refrain from giving classes too many skills & abilities.  Seems like the number of skills available to use starts getting out of control when reaching the higher levels in certain games.  Needing to have 4 or 5 hotbars on the screen is a little much, IMO. 

    Plus, some room should be leftover for non-combat skills.  Which I believe should become a greater part of MMORPG design in the future.  The decision to make MMORPGs mostly about combat caused a lot of problems.  And has had very illogical results in the design of many, if not most, of these games.  Warrior classes (Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Barbarian, etc.) should be the main damage dealers.  They are stronger and wield heavier weapons.  Also, they are more skilled at fighting than other classes and have a better chance to hit.  Rogues (Thieves, Bards, etc.) really shine when it comes to their non-combat skills.  Backstab is not something that can be used all the time.  Nor should rogues have some magical ability to disappear as if they're all wearing the One Ring.  Mages and Priests have a lot of non-combat spells/prayers that could be very useful and important in a variety of situations and encounters.

    The problems stem from Magic Users gaining spells. Fighters don't get those. Neither do Rogues. So spellcasters "feel" their advancement much better than a fighter who learns how to swing a sword, hammer, or mace.

    Non-combat skills would help, but we all know MMOs are now just "killing simulators" and thus lost their "RPG" aspect :)

    So you can either take away spellcasters spells, or give more abilities/skills to warriors.

    I think we can tell which games went, and it's not a "bad" thing to me :)

    Have you ever played AD&D (the Pencil & Paper + Imagination kind)?

    Yes. Fighters got 3 attacks every 2 rounds at 4th(?) level and 2 attacks per round at, I think, 7th. Wizards got a new spell every other level. More if they found scrolls to scribe to their spellbooks. Everyone got new hit points every level up, though :)

    AD&D had no BAB (Base Attack Bonus) like the newer versions do, that increase everything (skills/saves/to hit chances/spell accuracy and saves) every 2 levels. No attribute "just got better" every 4 levels.

    Also, Fireballs, Lightning Bolts, and Cones of Cold are nothing to sneeze at. Warriors are not the "best" damage dealers, just good at what they do :)

    Well, I'm thinking of 2nd Edition where Mages could only memorize a certain amount of spells a day (depending on their level and INT bonus [I think]).  So while some spells might do a lot of damage, the warrior classes could do their damage a lot more often. 

    How do spells work in the more recent editions of D&D?  Do Mages and Priests have something like Magic/Mana Points now?

    Also, do warriors (and other classes) still gain weapon proficiencies and non-weapon/non-combat proficiencies/skills as they level?



    No. In 4th edition, maybe even 3rd(?), spells became "classed", as in:
    - this list of spells can be cast whenever you like
    - this list of spells can be cast once per encounter
    - this list of spells can be cast once per day

    5th edition "named" them and made cantrips as "cast whenever and how many times you like." The rest, though, are back to limited uses per spell level and player level. Cantrips are the weaker spells that may do 1 die of damage, or are good out of combat spells. 5th Edition also has "rituals", where if your magic user or Cleric or Druid has the time (10 minutes plus the spells casting time), you can cast them without using a spell slot. Detect Magic and Identify are 2 popular spells that can be done as a ritual so they don't expend a spell slot for the day.

    You do have a point about combat and spellcasting, but the point still stands that magic users got to "feel" more like they were progressing faster while fighters didn't, other than greater hit point acquirement :)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,364
    If I was any good at macros I would favor them. But since I am not, well, you know.
    Ancient_Exile

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    edited April 30
    AlBQuirky said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Macros. They help in the prevention of carpal tunnel like in crafting, can help when more keys are needed in a rotation than people have fingers, and can also be used for "AFK activities."

    My only experience with them was in EQ1 that had macros built in. It was with my Bard and I macro'd 2 song rotations (3 songs each) for combat. In that game, your abilities did not fire off automatically as many of them could fail. I stopped using the macros when my songs "failed" to play ("You missed a note...") and I found myself having to hit a song 2 or 3 times to get it fired off. In today's "always succeed" designs, I don't see that specific problem :smile:

    If players want them, why not give the option?

    PS: Cheaters will always find ways around the rules...

    I see your point.  Some classes (or even all classes) have a lot of different skills and abilities in certain games.  Mages and priests especially could have a lot of different spells to choose from.  AD&D 2nd Edition dealt with this by only allowing a certain number of spells/prayers to be memorized/prepared for each day.  Though I believe later editions removed that.  And I could see how that could be problematic for MMORPGs with more frequent day and night cycles.  Especially those without day & night cycles (which is lame).  However, I do believe that MMORPGs should refrain from giving classes too many skills & abilities.  Seems like the number of skills available to use starts getting out of control when reaching the higher levels in certain games.  Needing to have 4 or 5 hotbars on the screen is a little much, IMO. 

    Plus, some room should be leftover for non-combat skills.  Which I believe should become a greater part of MMORPG design in the future.  The decision to make MMORPGs mostly about combat caused a lot of problems.  And has had very illogical results in the design of many, if not most, of these games.  Warrior classes (Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Barbarian, etc.) should be the main damage dealers.  They are stronger and wield heavier weapons.  Also, they are more skilled at fighting than other classes and have a better chance to hit.  Rogues (Thieves, Bards, etc.) really shine when it comes to their non-combat skills.  Backstab is not something that can be used all the time.  Nor should rogues have some magical ability to disappear as if they're all wearing the One Ring.  Mages and Priests have a lot of non-combat spells/prayers that could be very useful and important in a variety of situations and encounters.

    The problems stem from Magic Users gaining spells. Fighters don't get those. Neither do Rogues. So spellcasters "feel" their advancement much better than a fighter who learns how to swing a sword, hammer, or mace.

    Non-combat skills would help, but we all know MMOs are now just "killing simulators" and thus lost their "RPG" aspect :)

    So you can either take away spellcasters spells, or give more abilities/skills to warriors.

    I think we can tell which games went, and it's not a "bad" thing to me :)

    Have you ever played AD&D (the Pencil & Paper + Imagination kind)?

    Yes. Fighters got 3 attacks every 2 rounds at 4th(?) level and 2 attacks per round at, I think, 7th. Wizards got a new spell every other level. More if they found scrolls to scribe to their spellbooks. Everyone got new hit points every level up, though :)

    AD&D had no BAB (Base Attack Bonus) like the newer versions do, that increase everything (skills/saves/to hit chances/spell accuracy and saves) every 2 levels. No attribute "just got better" every 4 levels.

    Also, Fireballs, Lightning Bolts, and Cones of Cold are nothing to sneeze at. Warriors are not the "best" damage dealers, just good at what they do :)

    Well, I'm thinking of 2nd Edition where Mages could only memorize a certain amount of spells a day (depending on their level and INT bonus [I think]).  So while some spells might do a lot of damage, the warrior classes could do their damage a lot more often. 

    How do spells work in the more recent editions of D&D?  Do Mages and Priests have something like Magic/Mana Points now?

    Also, do warriors (and other classes) still gain weapon proficiencies and non-weapon/non-combat proficiencies/skills as they level?



    No. In 4th edition, maybe even 3rd(?), spells became "classed", as in:
    - this list of spells can be cast whenever you like
    - this list of spells can be cast once per encounter
    - this list of spells can be cast once per day

    5th edition "named" them and made cantrips as "cast whenever and how many times you like." The rest, though, are back to limited uses per spell level and player level. Cantrips are the weaker spells that may do 1 die of damage, or are good out of combat spells. 5th Edition also has "rituals", where if your magic user or Cleric or Druid has the time (10 minutes plus the spells casting time), you can cast them without using a spell slot. Detect Magic and Identify are 2 popular spells that can be done as a ritual so they don't expend a spell slot for the day.

    You do have a point about combat and spellcasting, but the point still stands that magic users got to "feel" more like they were progressing faster while fighters didn't, other than greater hit point acquirement :)

    Thanks for the info.  An MMORPG with day and night cycles could possibly do something like that if the use of non-combat spells and abilities were also important.  Such a using light spells to illuminate a room, knock spells to open doors, or charm spells to make an NPC more inclined to hand over an item or provide information.  (Of course, all the rogue non-combat could be made useful as well.  Such as open locks, find/remove traps, climb walls, etc.)

    I'm not saying MMORPGs can't give warrior classes different kinds of combat skills.  I was just saying that they don't need to give classes so many.  Especially in a game that doesn't have character levels and is based around raising the levels of particular skills, abilities, proficiencies, and talents.

    There's really a lot of complexity missing from MMORPGs.  Spells can be interrupted when a caster takes damage.  Mute/Silence spells can be cast on an enemy mage.  Etc, etc.
    Post edited by Ancient_Exile on
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