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Can Sandbox Open PVP MMOs be accessible for both PVE and Casual audiences? Aka Solving Griefing

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Answers

  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 1,931
    The most important thing to remember about DAOC, WAR, ESO, is that they have clear separation of pvp and pve. If a player chose to they could easily avoid pvp 100% without trying. 

    So they are Softcore PVP games.  Like pillow fights at sleepover parties.
    The kind of pvp game the pve players will join and play for a long time. 

    I love full loot open world pvp. But I accept that it’s going to bring in griefers and casuals will mostly avoid it causing low population. Just what it is. 

    Do all these PVP games allow you to see what level a PC (Player Character) is and inspect their gear before you decide whether to attack them or not?
    What Iselin said. But that’s a design choice that IMO is only necessary with large disparity between characters. If someone can get one shot then it’s probably a good idea to have some kind of warning. If the disparity is managed in a way that allows for a good fight then there’s no need. 
    "Wake up, It's RNG, there is no such thing as 'rare'"
    - Ungood
  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    edited April 28
    Iselin said:
    The most important thing to remember about DAOC, WAR, ESO, is that they have clear separation of pvp and pve. If a player chose to they could easily avoid pvp 100% without trying. 

    So they are Softcore PVP games.  Like pillow fights at sleepover parties.
    The kind of pvp game the pve players will join and play for a long time. 

    I love full loot open world pvp. But I accept that it’s going to bring in griefers and casuals will mostly avoid it causing low population. Just what it is. 

    Do all these PVP games allow you to see what level a PC (Player Character) is and inspect their gear before you decide whether to attack them or not?
    Gear inspection is a Blizzard hing :) I can't think of the top of my head of any other MMOs that have that in PvP or PvE.

    Level and PvP rank of your opponent is common though - most have some of tha.

    I can think of some other MMORPGs that allow you to inspect the gear of other players and see their gear scores.

    Personally, I don't think we should be able to see the levels of PCs, NPCs, or Mobs.  And we should only be able to see what people are wearing and wielding.  Unless the weapons are hidden.  Armor could also be covered by a cloak or whatever.  Some people might even use disguises, natural or magical.  Actually inspecting a person requires us to get up close and personal.  I don't think most strangers would be comfortable with that.  Even then, how and why should we be able to know what the stats of a particular piece of a equipment has on it?  Unless maybe we cast an identify object spell on it.  I don't know though.  I might decide to throw a rock at someone who is obviously trying to cast some kind of spell on me or at me.  Interrupting a strange person casting an unknown spell is probably wise in most cases.  But even if the Identify spell is successful, it should only tell the caster whether or not something is magical, divine, or somehow supernatural.  It shouldn't be able to tell the exact stats the weapon or equipment has.  Though some more powerful sort of Identify spell might tell a caster more about the nature of the magic or power with which the item is imbued. 

    And why should we be able to tell the difference between an NPC and PC?  Except maybe if we try to involve the character in a conversation.

    What if a person griefs the wrong person or griefs the wrong people too many times?  What if an assassin is then hired or otherwise dispatched to deal with the offender?  What if the person made him or herself such a nuisance that the assassin didn't give up for a whole week of real time?  What if the person found him or herself constantly running for his/her life?  What if the person was constantly being killed or hiding in remote areas hoping to escape death at a moment's notice?


    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 7,416
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    Ungood said:

    I'm thinking of trying UO.  Could you send me a private message about the best way to try UO for free?  I don't want to pay to play a very old game that I may or may not enjoy.  I've already done that in the past.

    Anyway though, it is too much to ask for a AAA game studio to build upon and improve the features, systems, and mechanics present in UO?  To even perhaps make new and even better 3D version of Ultima Online?

    Also, another game to look into, Legends of Aria, is made by the lead developers of UO.

    Hope you find the game that brings you joy.

    Its not made by lead devs its made by a couple guys who worked at UO for a bit ..

     And , I backed LoA , played every single build extensivley, its a shell of UO , it does not even have 1 third of the content or player activities .. A cheap and shallow knock off

      If you want a UO experience there is only one way to get it ...


    Says right on their trailer that Aria was made by the Lead Developers of UO, and given the choice between believing them, or you, gonna go with them.

    Of course you would .. but do some research , its a Marketing ploy , simple as that ..

      Derek Brinkman joined in 2006 .. was with UO for 4 years , his work on UO was Stygian Abyss , one of the less popular expansions ..

      Jeff Edwards was a community manager with UO....for 3 years

      Tim Cotten , was an advisor and assisted with Live events leading up to Stygian Abyss release ..

      Thats it , the 3, 2 in limited roles for a brief time in UOS 23 year history leading up to and releasing the worst expansion in UOs history in much of the communities eyes with the Stygian Abyss..

      All 3 were active in less than 25% of UOS life span ...

      Dont believe everything you read from Developers/Publishers  and this coming from someone who is heavily invested in most major studios ..


     
    All of this is brought to you by someone that claims they can have a strong opnion of something they know nothing about.

    Everyone should Keep that in mind when they read your posts.

    All facts anyone can check for themselves once again.. simple as that .. you keep being you tho the community is becoming used to it
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,357
    Ungood said:
    @Ancient_Exile

    Let me pose a riddle for you, something for you think about and really consider how to solve this.

    How can a game company put in time consuming repetitive grind to drag out the longevity of content in such a way that it has mass appeal.

    Ponder that riddle for me, let know what solutions you come up with, ideally, something that would work for you as a player.

    But I don't want "time consuming repetitive grind".
    Ok.

    So... the Riddle boils down to, "how do you make something appealing to someone that does not want that to start with".

    Have fun Solving that Riddle.
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 7,416
    edited April 28
    Iselin said:
    Scorchien said:

    Land of the Dead in War is a massive zone dedicated to PVPVE , and spent alot of time in Darkness Falls and it was always PVPVE non stop .. Entire guilds of Opposing factions would log out there alts in there .. In both cases it was a very prevalant  mechainic and exactly why each was made , There were several other areas in the Frontiers that mixed both .. and not to mention each BG in DAOC had prime farming spots in them that brought the 2 together ..

      and imo Keeps are a complete joke in both GW2 and ESO , may as well not exist ..

       and another reason and imo, I dont like either is the 100% segregation .. same as LOTRO its a zone .. thats it .. nothing to with the actual world , no real impact , added on fluff

      The Darkness Falls experience may vary on servers , on mine it was non -Stop PVP in DF , not sure if we or they would ever clear out all opposing Factions .. was a lotta fun tbh..

      Also its worth mentioning that in War , when you have to take a fort you it can take 10-15 Minutes to kill the Lord(PVE) while fighting your enemy (PVP) Ive seen the Lord wipe entire Warbands very quickly its something that Must be handled propoerly many times .. as your enemies are pushing the lower floor and you try to control the Lord Room (PVE) and the first Floor (PVP)
    LOD in WAR was basically just their spin on Darkness Falls except not underground. It and Darkness falls in DAoC were mixed areas but most considered both of those as primarily PVP zones and went there with full knowledge that PvP could happen. Anyone who didn't want to risk it had no NEED to go there.

    Yes those mixed areas had some incentives with gear or resources that were in some cases better or more abundant but they were also very skippable.

    On my server, Guinevere, Darkness Falls went through phases of PvP activity: lots of it on initial change of ownership to virtually zero 1/2 hour later. Yes it had the possibility that one stealther or 2 had logged off there and came back later to gank but those were just minor and trivial and usually just a temporary mini game of hunt the ganker for a minute or two. DF had good loot with the token system that most wanted but it was also 100% not needed for anyone who didn't want to risk it. No one did their PvE grinding there for those last 45-50 levels. That was done in the 100% PvE zones (killing goblins or Ents if you wee in Albion.)

    LOTRO creeps vs. freeps was utter shit - on that one I agree. Playing as a monster just to PvP was laughable.

    Your Pve + PvP example of keeps... is that a joke? No one went there to just PvE the keep NPCs. That was just the NPCs in PvP zones thing that every game has. Yeah in DAoC and WAR they were big bad NPCs and ESO did away with that janky "must kill the keep lord" crap. ESO does have defending NPCs but they're no more powerful than players.

    As to keeps might as well not exist in ESO I have no idea what you're talking about. Some of the best fights in ESO that can sometimes go back and forth for an hour or more happen there. Zerg v. zerg with no objectives is just dumb PvP. The keeps and what controlling them does for your faction are there to give it a reason. 

    No one said you go there tJust to kill the Lord , you have to and thats an PVE mob .. and you must ( and this happens daily multiple times up to 12) manage the PVE Lord which takes Tanks taunting holding Aggro/Heals/DPS like any other Boss in a PVE dungeon .. and control the Enemies trying to get into the Keep to prevent it ..

     Every day , many times a day .. Its PVPVE

       I realize and put many hours in Cyrodill , there Keeps are terrible small easily taken cardboard boxes..Its also so much smaller scale than War or DAOC in its heyday

     And yes there Lords are no more powerful than a player ...

     In War you generally need 50-75 players to take down a Fort Lord while fighting enemies , a group of 24 without enemies would take about 15-20 minutes to kill a Lord and ive seen that fail many times
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 7,416
    Scorchien said:
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    Ungood said:

    I'm thinking of trying UO.  Could you send me a private message about the best way to try UO for free?  I don't want to pay to play a very old game that I may or may not enjoy.  I've already done that in the past.

    Anyway though, it is too much to ask for a AAA game studio to build upon and improve the features, systems, and mechanics present in UO?  To even perhaps make new and even better 3D version of Ultima Online?

    Also, another game to look into, Legends of Aria, is made by the lead developers of UO.

    Hope you find the game that brings you joy.

    Its not made by lead devs its made by a couple guys who worked at UO for a bit ..

     And , I backed LoA , played every single build extensivley, its a shell of UO , it does not even have 1 third of the content or player activities .. A cheap and shallow knock off

      If you want a UO experience there is only one way to get it ...


    Says right on their trailer that Aria was made by the Lead Developers of UO, and given the choice between believing them, or you, gonna go with them.

    Of course you would .. but do some research , its a Marketing ploy , simple as that ..

      Derek Brinkman joined in 2006 .. was with UO for 4 years , his work on UO was Stygian Abyss , one of the less popular expansions ..

      Jeff Edwards was a community manager with UO....for 3 years

      Tim Cotten , was an advisor and assisted with Live events leading up to Stygian Abyss release ..

      Thats it , the 3, 2 in limited roles for a brief time in UOS 23 year history leading up to and releasing the worst expansion in UOs history in much of the communities eyes with the Stygian Abyss..

      All 3 were active in less than 25% of UOS life span ...

      Dont believe everything you read from Developers/Publishers  and this coming from someone who is heavily invested in most major studios ..


     
    All of this is brought to you by someone that claims they can have a strong opnion of something they know nothing about.

    Everyone should Keep that in mind when they read your posts.

    All facts anyone can check for themselves once again.. simple as that .. you keep being you tho the community is becoming used to it

    And this is more you just twisting shit again because you realize you are wrong ..

     But anyone that has read or cares to read the thread ...

     What i did say more than once , that if you do research you can form an opinion on wether or not you would like a game .. And most people with an IQ over say 45 can manage that ..

      Apparently you struggle
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,357
    Scorchien said:
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    Ungood said:

    I'm thinking of trying UO.  Could you send me a private message about the best way to try UO for free?  I don't want to pay to play a very old game that I may or may not enjoy.  I've already done that in the past.

    Anyway though, it is too much to ask for a AAA game studio to build upon and improve the features, systems, and mechanics present in UO?  To even perhaps make new and even better 3D version of Ultima Online?

    Also, another game to look into, Legends of Aria, is made by the lead developers of UO.

    Hope you find the game that brings you joy.

    Its not made by lead devs its made by a couple guys who worked at UO for a bit ..

     And , I backed LoA , played every single build extensivley, its a shell of UO , it does not even have 1 third of the content or player activities .. A cheap and shallow knock off

      If you want a UO experience there is only one way to get it ...


    Says right on their trailer that Aria was made by the Lead Developers of UO, and given the choice between believing them, or you, gonna go with them.

    Of course you would .. but do some research , its a Marketing ploy , simple as that ..

      Derek Brinkman joined in 2006 .. was with UO for 4 years , his work on UO was Stygian Abyss , one of the less popular expansions ..

      Jeff Edwards was a community manager with UO....for 3 years

      Tim Cotten , was an advisor and assisted with Live events leading up to Stygian Abyss release ..

      Thats it , the 3, 2 in limited roles for a brief time in UOS 23 year history leading up to and releasing the worst expansion in UOs history in much of the communities eyes with the Stygian Abyss..

      All 3 were active in less than 25% of UOS life span ...

      Dont believe everything you read from Developers/Publishers  and this coming from someone who is heavily invested in most major studios ..


     
    All of this is brought to you by someone that claims they can have a strong opnion of something they know nothing about.

    Everyone should Keep that in mind when they read your posts.

    All facts anyone can check for themselves once again.. simple as that .. you keep being you tho the community is becoming used to it
     Right back at ya.

    Anytime you want, you can stop responding to my posts, you won't be missed.
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 7,416
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    Ungood said:

    I'm thinking of trying UO.  Could you send me a private message about the best way to try UO for free?  I don't want to pay to play a very old game that I may or may not enjoy.  I've already done that in the past.

    Anyway though, it is too much to ask for a AAA game studio to build upon and improve the features, systems, and mechanics present in UO?  To even perhaps make new and even better 3D version of Ultima Online?

    Also, another game to look into, Legends of Aria, is made by the lead developers of UO.

    Hope you find the game that brings you joy.

    Its not made by lead devs its made by a couple guys who worked at UO for a bit ..

     And , I backed LoA , played every single build extensivley, its a shell of UO , it does not even have 1 third of the content or player activities .. A cheap and shallow knock off

      If you want a UO experience there is only one way to get it ...


    Says right on their trailer that Aria was made by the Lead Developers of UO, and given the choice between believing them, or you, gonna go with them.

    Of course you would .. but do some research , its a Marketing ploy , simple as that ..

      Derek Brinkman joined in 2006 .. was with UO for 4 years , his work on UO was Stygian Abyss , one of the less popular expansions ..

      Jeff Edwards was a community manager with UO....for 3 years

      Tim Cotten , was an advisor and assisted with Live events leading up to Stygian Abyss release ..

      Thats it , the 3, 2 in limited roles for a brief time in UOS 23 year history leading up to and releasing the worst expansion in UOs history in much of the communities eyes with the Stygian Abyss..

      All 3 were active in less than 25% of UOS life span ...

      Dont believe everything you read from Developers/Publishers  and this coming from someone who is heavily invested in most major studios ..


     
    All of this is brought to you by someone that claims they can have a strong opnion of something they know nothing about.

    Everyone should Keep that in mind when they read your posts.

    All facts anyone can check for themselves once again.. simple as that .. you keep being you tho the community is becoming used to it
     Right back at ya.

    Anytime you want, you can stop responding to my posts, you won't be missed.

    Anytime you want you can present facts like i have shown they would be welcome change from your normal shit that drips outa you face
  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    edited April 28
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    @Ancient_Exile

    Let me pose a riddle for you, something for you think about and really consider how to solve this.

    How can a game company put in time consuming repetitive grind to drag out the longevity of content in such a way that it has mass appeal.

    Ponder that riddle for me, let know what solutions you come up with, ideally, something that would work for you as a player.

    But I don't want "time consuming repetitive grind".
    Ok.

    So... the Riddle boils down to, "how do you make something appealing to someone that does not want that to start with".

    Have fun Solving that Riddle.

    You don't want to play the game I want to play.  Great.  Fine.  But I don't think you're the representative of all people who currently prefer PVE to PVP.  Honestly, I happen to currently prefer PVE to PVP in modern MMORPGs.  Because PVP in modern MMORPGs (and most older MMORPGs) is poorly designed and poorly implemented. 

    But PVE also sucks because, after all is said and done, nothing my character does in MMORPGs really matters or effects the game world in any lasting way.  Which makes MMORPGs far less interesting than single player RPGs except for the fact that I can keep playing the same game/character as long as I want  And I can interact with other players if choose to do so.  But if that's all it took for MMORPGs to be really interesting, than I would still be playing EQ2 and Neverwinter.  Or I would be playing DDO right now instead of typing on this forum.
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,554
    Scorchien said:
    Iselin said:
    Scorchien said:

    Land of the Dead in War is a massive zone dedicated to PVPVE , and spent alot of time in Darkness Falls and it was always PVPVE non stop .. Entire guilds of Opposing factions would log out there alts in there .. In both cases it was a very prevalant  mechainic and exactly why each was made , There were several other areas in the Frontiers that mixed both .. and not to mention each BG in DAOC had prime farming spots in them that brought the 2 together ..

      and imo Keeps are a complete joke in both GW2 and ESO , may as well not exist ..

       and another reason and imo, I dont like either is the 100% segregation .. same as LOTRO its a zone .. thats it .. nothing to with the actual world , no real impact , added on fluff

      The Darkness Falls experience may vary on servers , on mine it was non -Stop PVP in DF , not sure if we or they would ever clear out all opposing Factions .. was a lotta fun tbh..

      Also its worth mentioning that in War , when you have to take a fort you it can take 10-15 Minutes to kill the Lord(PVE) while fighting your enemy (PVP) Ive seen the Lord wipe entire Warbands very quickly its something that Must be handled propoerly many times .. as your enemies are pushing the lower floor and you try to control the Lord Room (PVE) and the first Floor (PVP)
    LOD in WAR was basically just their spin on Darkness Falls except not underground. It and Darkness falls in DAoC were mixed areas but most considered both of those as primarily PVP zones and went there with full knowledge that PvP could happen. Anyone who didn't want to risk it had no NEED to go there.

    Yes those mixed areas had some incentives with gear or resources that were in some cases better or more abundant but they were also very skippable.

    On my server, Guinevere, Darkness Falls went through phases of PvP activity: lots of it on initial change of ownership to virtually zero 1/2 hour later. Yes it had the possibility that one stealther or 2 had logged off there and came back later to gank but those were just minor and trivial and usually just a temporary mini game of hunt the ganker for a minute or two. DF had good loot with the token system that most wanted but it was also 100% not needed for anyone who didn't want to risk it. No one did their PvE grinding there for those last 45-50 levels. That was done in the 100% PvE zones (killing goblins or Ents if you wee in Albion.)

    LOTRO creeps vs. freeps was utter shit - on that one I agree. Playing as a monster just to PvP was laughable.

    Your Pve + PvP example of keeps... is that a joke? No one went there to just PvE the keep NPCs. That was just the NPCs in PvP zones thing that every game has. Yeah in DAoC and WAR they were big bad NPCs and ESO did away with that janky "must kill the keep lord" crap. ESO does have defending NPCs but they're no more powerful than players.

    As to keeps might as well not exist in ESO I have no idea what you're talking about. Some of the best fights in ESO that can sometimes go back and forth for an hour or more happen there. Zerg v. zerg with no objectives is just dumb PvP. The keeps and what controlling them does for your faction are there to give it a reason. 

    No one said you go there tJust to kill the Lord , you have to and thats an PVE mob .. and you must ( and this happens daily multiple times up to 12) manage the PVE Lord which takes Tanks taunting holding Aggro/Heals/DPS like any other Boss in a PVE dungeon .. and control the Enemies trying to get into the Keep to prevent it ..

     Every day , many times a day .. Its PVPVE

       I realize and put many hours in Cyrodill , there Keeps are terrible small easily taken cardboard boxes..Its also so much smaller scale than War or DAOC in its heyday

     And yes there Lords are no more powerful than a player ...

     In War you generally need 50-75 players to take down a Fort Lord while fighting enemies , a group of 24 without enemies would take about 15-20 minutes to kill a Lord and ive seen that fail many times
    Yeah I know how those keep lord fights worked in DAoC and WAR. It's just not something that even crosses my mind when I talk about PvE / PvP separation. PvE in PvP zones is something all games of this type have. ESO even has dolmen group events, delves and even PvE quests in Cyrodiil as well as mundus stones and skyshards for skill points.

    But it's the PvP zone. No one goes there to just PvE unless they want the extra buzz from the PvP that may or may not find them. 100% optional for PvErs.

    When I played there those delves were good for temporary PvP buffs that killing the delve boss gave you and dolmens had a chance to drop better quality siege weapons. We might alter course slightly to grab a skyshard or Mundus stone we wanted if one was near. Other than that we just ignored the PvE content there.

    Each keep in ESO is different but all featured an outer walls and inner keep with walls that also had to be breached. Breaches could also be repaired as long as they hadn't taken damage for a few seconds. I liked that design much better. There were many keep attacks that failed after breaching the outer wall by fighting them in the courtyard and sometimes even repairing the outer wall breach while they attacked the inner to keep reinforcements away.

    Many of those fights could be very long and epic. But I ran with good guilds with good leadership and always with VoIP. We were never lost as to what to do and where to go next. If you ran with PUGs that was a totally different experience.
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,357
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    @Ancient_Exile

    Let me pose a riddle for you, something for you think about and really consider how to solve this.

    How can a game company put in time consuming repetitive grind to drag out the longevity of content in such a way that it has mass appeal.

    Ponder that riddle for me, let know what solutions you come up with, ideally, something that would work for you as a player.

    But I don't want "time consuming repetitive grind".
    Ok.

    So... the Riddle boils down to, "how do you make something appealing to someone that does not want that to start with".

    Have fun Solving that Riddle.

    You don't want to play the game I want to play.  Great.  Fine.  But I don't think you're the representative of all people who currently prefer PVE to PVP.  Honestly, I happen to currently prefer PVE to PVP in modern MMORPGs.  Because PVP in modern MMORPGs (and most older MMORPGs) is poorly designed and poorly implemented.  But PVE also sucks because, after all is said and done, nothing my character does in MMORPGs actually matters or effects the game world in any lasting way.  Which actually makes MMORPGs far less interesting than single player RPGs except for the fact that I can keep playing as long as I want and I can interact with other people.  But if that's all it took for MMORPGs to be really interesting, than I would still be playing EQ2 and Neverwinter.  Or I would be playing DDO right now instead of typing on this forum.
    I am just me, and perhaps others that think like me, however large or small that might be, just like you are just you, and perhaps others that think like you, however large or small that might be.

    This is something we all should embrace. Sure we will disagree, but your wants are limited to you, others may very well not share in your desires at all, nor do they think it is a remotely good idea.

    Now, when you find people that disagree with you, is where things get tricky, some might not want what you think would be great, because they played games with those kinds of features and didn't like them to varying degrees, and it would behove you to listen to what they have to say.

    Others just think the idea is wasted. That it has no value.

    Others might mention that there are games like what you want already out there, and wonder why you are not playing them. What was wrong with them?

    Here is the thing, the more picky a player gets about not finding that "Perfect" game, and all too often mentions PvP a lot, especially Open World PvP, this sends up a red flag that what they are really just looking for is a  game where they can bully and harass other players, and all these other games that failed, are games where they got bullied and ran away. Not to say that is the case with you, but that is often a Red Flag that comes to people's minds, and something for you to consider. 

    In the end, you spend a lot of time trying to talk about how to get people to like something they flat out don't want, ergo. Injecting PvP into game and trying to get people that don't like PvP to want to play it. I am here to tell you, that you will have no better luck selling PvP to someone that does not like PvP than Farmers will have selling you on learning to love tedious boring repetitive PvE grind. 

    And I think you really need to come to terms with that, if you want to theorycraft your ideal game.

    As for controlling the future of a game, you would first need a game that has the passage of time to it, this really does not exist in most Modern MMO's. Some MMO's have tried that, for me the best example I can give is GW2, they tried a progressive world with their Living World idea and that kinda failed like screen doors in a submarine, which is why they went to Living Story idea, and players still cry about missing Living World Episode 1, because it took place before they joined the game. 

    However your dream game, as ideally as it might seem to you, reminds me of the shitstorm that is Chronicles of Elyria. Their idea and premise is highly similar to what you are talking about. a Living World where time passes, players run the economy and the land, where it is PC that are the rulers, and they are the ones that shape the future of the game, not some premade story or feeling of stuck in stasis. The players set the laws, and faction wars and land ownership strife exists between Kingdoms and Races, along with fixed finite resources, this makes for the PvP to be ral and have meaning. Also all gear and items were supposed to be player made, no direct classes, and players even age and eventually diem getting reborn as their next generation.

    Ideally that game sounds like it hits every checkbox you ever wanted in a game, and explains why so many were duped into backing it. I feel bad for them to be honest.

    At the same time, Gemstone IV provided all that back in 1988, just without the fancy graphics.

    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303

    No, I'm not trying to convince people to like something they don't want.  I already explained what I was trying to do. 

    Who cares about Chronicles of Elyria?  Just because some similar ideas were presented by a person or persons involved in a project that didn't come to fruition, that doesn't mean that all such ideas should now be abandoned.
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,357
    Who cares about Chronicles of Elyria?  Just because some similar ideas were presented by a person or persons involved in a project that didn't come to fruition, that doesn't mean that all such ideas should now be abandoned.
    That was not my point.

    But to be honest.. if that was your take away. Eh.. 
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • RoguewizRoguewiz Member UncommonPosts: 708
    Short Answer:  No
    Long Answer:  Yep, still no

    Unrestricted, Open PVP will inherently cause issues for those that would rather sit back and farm or do something else instead of PVP.  I haven't played an open world PVP game since Shadowbane.  However, my experience in there was that you will almost always find someone that doesn't mind clubbing the proverbial "baby seal".  One of my friends loved Shadowbane for its character advancement, but despised the game because he couldn't level once he left newbie island.  Given his play times, he rarely could run with a pack.

    Some other games have introduced mitigating factors such as penalties for killing people substantially below your level, or repeatedly killing them.  Honestly though?  These penalties are negligible.  The player could just log off or ignore the penalty (unless it was excessive)

    If a game wants to be accessible to both the PVP Crowd and the PVE Crowd, then it just needs to suck it up and keep the playerbase separate.  Battlegrounds, Arenas, and heck what Crowfall is doing; are good examples.
    UngoodbotrytisAlBQuirky

    Raquelis in various games
    Played: Everything
    Playing: World of Warcraft Classic, Stuff
    Wants: The World
    Anticipating: Everquest Next Crowfall, Pantheon

    Tank - Healer - Support: The REAL Trinity
  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    Ungood said:
    Who cares about Chronicles of Elyria?  Just because some similar ideas were presented by a person or persons involved in a project that didn't come to fruition, that doesn't mean that all such ideas should now be abandoned.
    That was not my point.

    But to be honest.. if that was your take away. Eh.. 

    I know what your point is, and I don't agree.  We've been through this a few times already.
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    Roguewiz said:
    Short Answer:  No
    Long Answer:  Yep, still no

    Unrestricted, Open PVP will inherently cause issues for those that would rather sit back and farm or do something else instead of PVP.  I haven't played an open world PVP game since Shadowbane.  However, my experience in there was that you will almost always find someone that doesn't mind clubbing the proverbial "baby seal".  One of my friends loved Shadowbane for its character advancement, but despised the game because he couldn't level once he left newbie island.  Given his play times, he rarely could run with a pack.

    Some other games have introduced mitigating factors such as penalties for killing people substantially below your level, or repeatedly killing them.  Honestly though?  These penalties are negligible.  The player could just log off or ignore the penalty (unless it was excessive)

    If a game wants to be accessible to both the PVP Crowd and the PVE Crowd, then it just needs to suck it up and keep the playerbase separate.  Battlegrounds, Arenas, and heck what Crowfall is doing; are good examples.

    Did the OP state that the Open World PVP should be Unrestricted?  I don't remember.

    Anyway, if the Griefer/Stalker/Abusive Player logs out, isn't that a good thing?
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,242
    Scorchien said:
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    Ungood said:

    I'm thinking of trying UO.  Could you send me a private message about the best way to try UO for free?  I don't want to pay to play a very old game that I may or may not enjoy.  I've already done that in the past.

    Anyway though, it is too much to ask for a AAA game studio to build upon and improve the features, systems, and mechanics present in UO?  To even perhaps make new and even better 3D version of Ultima Online?

    Also, another game to look into, Legends of Aria, is made by the lead developers of UO.

    Hope you find the game that brings you joy.

    Its not made by lead devs its made by a couple guys who worked at UO for a bit ..

     And , I backed LoA , played every single build extensivley, its a shell of UO , it does not even have 1 third of the content or player activities .. A cheap and shallow knock off

      If you want a UO experience there is only one way to get it ...


    Says right on their trailer that Aria was made by the Lead Developers of UO, and given the choice between believing them, or you, gonna go with them.

    Of course you would .. but do some research , its a Marketing ploy , simple as that ..

      Derek Brinkman joined in 2006 .. was with UO for 4 years , his work on UO was Stygian Abyss , one of the less popular expansions ..

      Jeff Edwards was a community manager with UO....for 3 years

      Tim Cotten , was an advisor and assisted with Live events leading up to Stygian Abyss release ..

      Thats it , the 3, 2 in limited roles for a brief time in UOS 23 year history leading up to and releasing the worst expansion in UOs history in much of the communities eyes with the Stygian Abyss..

      All 3 were active in less than 25% of UOS life span ...

      Dont believe everything you read from Developers/Publishers  and this coming from someone who is heavily invested in most major studios ..


     
    Unrelated and off topic, 
    but Stygian Abyss was a truly great expansion for PvE. It allowed PvP, but by that time the game was dying from PvP and even the PKers weren't going there for lack of their form of "content" (other players). 

    Still, Derek Brinkman and designers associated with that deserve credit for the remarkable job they did on that expansion. 

    I used to take my only 2 characters that could survive alone (in PvE) down there and spend hours enjoying the challenge and content. 
    It felt like The Underworld, not overdone nor underdone. Not too small, they can always be larger of course. Dark but not too dark at all, more in the colors and feeling than in actual darkness. And great MOBs and layout. 

    Just sayin'. 
    Ungood

    Once upon a time....

  • botrytisbotrytis Member RarePosts: 3,325
    Roguewiz said:
    Short Answer:  No
    Long Answer:  Yep, still no

    Unrestricted, Open PVP will inherently cause issues for those that would rather sit back and farm or do something else instead of PVP.  I haven't played an open world PVP game since Shadowbane.  However, my experience in there was that you will almost always find someone that doesn't mind clubbing the proverbial "baby seal".  One of my friends loved Shadowbane for its character advancement, but despised the game because he couldn't level once he left newbie island.  Given his play times, he rarely could run with a pack.

    Some other games have introduced mitigating factors such as penalties for killing people substantially below your level, or repeatedly killing them.  Honestly though?  These penalties are negligible.  The player could just log off or ignore the penalty (unless it was excessive)

    If a game wants to be accessible to both the PVP Crowd and the PVE Crowd, then it just needs to suck it up and keep the playerbase separate.  Battlegrounds, Arenas, and heck what Crowfall is doing; are good examples.
    GW1 and GW2 does that now. Maybe not best as for as how they did them, but they are separate.

    The other thing that has not been addressed is PvE and PvP use skills differently and need to be separate.


  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,242
    Iselin said:
    The most important thing to remember about DAOC, WAR, ESO, is that they have clear separation of pvp and pve. If a player chose to they could easily avoid pvp 100% without trying. 

    So they are Softcore PVP games.  Like pillow fights at sleepover parties.
    The kind of pvp game the pve players will join and play for a long time. 

    I love full loot open world pvp. But I accept that it’s going to bring in griefers and casuals will mostly avoid it causing low population. Just what it is. 

    Do all these PVP games allow you to see what level a PC (Player Character) is and inspect their gear before you decide whether to attack them or not?
    Gear inspection is a Blizzard hing :) I can't think of the top of my head of any other MMOs that have that in PvP or PvE.

    Level and PvP rank of your opponent is common though - most have some of tha.
    Even UO had gear inspection for what a player was wearing. 
    But in that case, it sort of worked in reverse. If you wore great stuff and PKers saw that, they'd target you and call in friends. 
    Ganking, btw, is not just about newbs. Any time players can scout and call in reinforcements (which happened a lot in UO), they can gank you with numbers instead of "levels." 
    Ancient_Exile

    Once upon a time....

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,242
    botrytis said:
    Roguewiz said:
    Short Answer:  No
    Long Answer:  Yep, still no

    Unrestricted, Open PVP will inherently cause issues for those that would rather sit back and farm or do something else instead of PVP.  I haven't played an open world PVP game since Shadowbane.  However, my experience in there was that you will almost always find someone that doesn't mind clubbing the proverbial "baby seal".  One of my friends loved Shadowbane for its character advancement, but despised the game because he couldn't level once he left newbie island.  Given his play times, he rarely could run with a pack.

    Some other games have introduced mitigating factors such as penalties for killing people substantially below your level, or repeatedly killing them.  Honestly though?  These penalties are negligible.  The player could just log off or ignore the penalty (unless it was excessive)

    If a game wants to be accessible to both the PVP Crowd and the PVE Crowd, then it just needs to suck it up and keep the playerbase separate.  Battlegrounds, Arenas, and heck what Crowfall is doing; are good examples.
    GW1 and GW2 does that now. Maybe not best as for as how they did them, but they are separate.

    The other thing that has not been addressed is PvE and PvP use skills differently and need to be separate.

    They shouldn't use skills differently. That sounds like a MOB weakness actually. Rock/paper/scissors design? 

    Once upon a time....

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,242
    Roguewiz said:
    Short Answer:  No
    Long Answer:  Yep, still no

    Unrestricted, Open PVP will inherently cause issues for those that would rather sit back and farm or do something else instead of PVP.  I haven't played an open world PVP game since Shadowbane.  However, my experience in there was that you will almost always find someone that doesn't mind clubbing the proverbial "baby seal".  One of my friends loved Shadowbane for its character advancement, but despised the game because he couldn't level once he left newbie island.  Given his play times, he rarely could run with a pack.

    Some other games have introduced mitigating factors such as penalties for killing people substantially below your level, or repeatedly killing them.  Honestly though?  These penalties are negligible.  The player could just log off or ignore the penalty (unless it was excessive)

    If a game wants to be accessible to both the PVP Crowd and the PVE Crowd, then it just needs to suck it up and keep the playerbase separate.  Battlegrounds, Arenas, and heck what Crowfall is doing; are good examples.

    Did the OP state that the Open World PVP should be Unrestricted?  I don't remember.

    Anyway, if the Griefer/Stalker/Abusive Player logs out, isn't that a good thing?

    Logging out is a big issue when it comes to catching them. 
    But I think Roguewiz's primary point is that it wasn't enough so they could pretty much just ignore the penalty. It didn't matter enough. 
    Ancient_Exile

    Once upon a time....

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,357
    Ungood said:
    Who cares about Chronicles of Elyria?  Just because some similar ideas were presented by a person or persons involved in a project that didn't come to fruition, that doesn't mean that all such ideas should now be abandoned.
    That was not my point.

    But to be honest.. if that was your take away. Eh.. 

    I know what your point is, and I don't agree.  We've been through this a few times already.
    Ok.. let me help you out and make this simple.

    Like many others have said:

    Answers: No.
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,242
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Who cares about Chronicles of Elyria?  Just because some similar ideas were presented by a person or persons involved in a project that didn't come to fruition, that doesn't mean that all such ideas should now be abandoned.
    That was not my point.

    But to be honest.. if that was your take away. Eh.. 

    I know what your point is, and I don't agree.  We've been through this a few times already.
    Ok.. let me help you out and make this simple.

    Like many others have said:

    Answers: No.
    It's not that simple. lol

    Once upon a time....

  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 1,931
    Roguewiz said:
    Short Answer:  No
    Long Answer:  Yep, still no

    Unrestricted, Open PVP will inherently cause issues for those that would rather sit back and farm or do something else instead of PVP.  I haven't played an open world PVP game since Shadowbane.  However, my experience in there was that you will almost always find someone that doesn't mind clubbing the proverbial "baby seal".  One of my friends loved Shadowbane for its character advancement, but despised the game because he couldn't level once he left newbie island.  Given his play times, he rarely could run with a pack.

    Some other games have introduced mitigating factors such as penalties for killing people substantially below your level, or repeatedly killing them.  Honestly though?  These penalties are negligible.  The player could just log off or ignore the penalty (unless it was excessive)

    If a game wants to be accessible to both the PVP Crowd and the PVE Crowd, then it just needs to suck it up and keep the playerbase separate.  Battlegrounds, Arenas, and heck what Crowfall is doing; are good examples.

    Did the OP state that the Open World PVP should be Unrestricted?  I don't remember.

    Anyway, if the Griefer/Stalker/Abusive Player logs out, isn't that a good thing?
    I believe that is the general consensus, yes. Open world pvp is typically defined as pvp anywhere in the world and player A has no say if player B wants to attack him or not. 
    bcbully
    "Wake up, It's RNG, there is no such thing as 'rare'"
    - Ungood
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 28,777
    Roguewiz said:
    Short Answer:  No
    Long Answer:  Yep, still no

    Unrestricted, Open PVP will inherently cause issues for those that would rather sit back and farm or do something else instead of PVP.  I haven't played an open world PVP game since Shadowbane.  However, my experience in there was that you will almost always find someone that doesn't mind clubbing the proverbial "baby seal".  One of my friends loved Shadowbane for its character advancement, but despised the game because he couldn't level once he left newbie island.  Given his play times, he rarely could run with a pack.

    Some other games have introduced mitigating factors such as penalties for killing people substantially below your level, or repeatedly killing them.  Honestly though?  These penalties are negligible.  The player could just log off or ignore the penalty (unless it was excessive)

    If a game wants to be accessible to both the PVP Crowd and the PVE Crowd, then it just needs to suck it up and keep the playerbase separate.  Battlegrounds, Arenas, and heck what Crowfall is doing; are good examples.

    Did the OP state that the Open World PVP should be Unrestricted?  I don't remember.

    Anyway, if the Griefer/Stalker/Abusive Player logs out, isn't that a good thing?
    I believe that is the general consensus, yes. Open world pvp is typically defined as pvp anywhere in the world and player A has no say if player B wants to attack him or not. 
    That feels like such a "glass half empty" explanation. How About player A expects that they will be attacked at any time and has either prepared for it or has accepted the consequences for not preparing for it?"
    Scorchienbcbully
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