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We need "artist design" badly. Can only come from a personal creator.

delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,512
edited April 21 in The Pub at MMORPG.COM

This is what sets apart two styles of creativity: 

1)  You have high tech design where developers get fancy with programming. Dynamic events, cross server realms, personal story lines, high level graphics, video take-a-ways to name just a few.

 This style in my opinion is smart tech but COLD, it's often a display of "look what we can do to auto play convenience".  It leaves NATURAL lean life style out in every case.  Immersion is never present but a robotic style of play…. Much like reading a tech manual instead of a novel. 

This style often comes from collage educated programmers.  They don't have the "gift of Art" but high scores in collage and a resume from doing it over and over.  This is what Triple A hires.   Remember EA Mass Effect Andromeda… Good example of collage kids trying to be artist, with their big ol professor's degree in computer science.  Besides Anthem failed too, very self absorbed company that think they know best. 

 

2)  True artist first, then a programmer second……. This is lost completely, it's unacceptable by Triple A.

It's big business Walmart store management (cold) as opposed to a nice country store (warm). 

A story teller first has no credibility with out high marks in collage, and will never be accepted by big business by today's standards.  No corporate stamp of approval ever !

 

A very real popular myth THAT MUST BE OVER COME:

Triple A and players alike view Artistic as old school old.   Old school is falsely accused of 1990's era nostalgia……. I must ask why must EVERYONE assume this, everyone !.... I've asked this question for years, yet NO ONE HAS EVER PROVIDED AND ANSWER.   

Why ?..... Because it's a locked in Myth in everyone's mind.  I often go there my self, it's a trick of the mind. 

 

Proof, that Artistic style is still in high demand, infect thrives ! 

Pantheon !...... In early stages, this game caused much uproar from a divided community.  It separated the two classes discussed above.  High degree of passion was present on one side of the coin. 

I'm convinced Vanilla World of Warcraft, would be #1 if launched today. 

There is a high demand for artistic development of witch there is none other than low budget backing.

50/50 percent want art style.  Much like politics, passionate arguments break out.   But it's still 50/50 none the less….. Yet we still have nothing for the first 50. 

Artistic mmorpgs are out for the 50%... Because Triple A will not back this 50% ever again ! 

With 50/50 player views as the common denominator.  The breaking point would be Triple A production.  It will never happen in big business.  Therefore the scale is tipped in one direction. 

 

Sad to say the artistic 50% is gone for good !.... No real point, it's locked in… just saying.

Post edited by delete5230 on
GdemamimmoloualkarionlogKyleran
«1

Comments

  • lahnmirlahnmir Member LegendaryPosts: 3,667
    You are asking for one of my responses again Delete, careful now!

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...



    'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless. 

    It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.

    It is just huge resource waste....'

    Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer

  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,512
    lahnmir said:
    You are asking for one of my responses again Delete, careful now!

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    I'll admit, I'm jaded on one side of the 50%..... However you must agree it's over all 50/50.

    Their is nothing for the other 50!  Your allowed to have your view, but you should have compassion for the other 50.

    Not arguing but just asking to understand.  
    Gdemami
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,512
    edited April 21
    Saga of Lucimia..... This is built with passion and artistic. 

    It's a fact !...... Triple A will never give credibility to it's production.  Even if better ten fold. 

    No large backer would ever provide hardware or software with a high tech studio along with travel expenses to bring this team closer together for more accessibility.  

    It will never see a large budget by saying we we had been following your product and like what we see.  Therefore we offer high tech support at your disposal to do as you wish...... We give you 100 percent backing.   


    Triple A is locked in and absolute, and will never give credibility to an outside source, outside the realms of corporate.   

    This goes for all business ventures. 
    GdemamimmolouTuor7KyleranShaddyDaddy
  • Gamer54321Gamer54321 Member UncommonPosts: 452
    edited April 21
    I think the world has other ways to decrcibe and critique anything artistic:

    Comcis creator Scott McCloud pointed out that in creating comics and coming up with something new, you basically have two options:

    1) New form

    2) New content

    So, you could have a game that was a "shooter" (form), but you could dress it up with some backdrop (content). Or, you re-use some old content (western) and come up with a new form (whatever new and innovative). Or, I guess you could just, re-make some old stuff with old form and old content. Also a possibility.

    Then, there is the obvious category of 'aesthetics'. A discussion of 'style', the lack of style, or variant of old styles, and even including regional/local sensitivities.


    Obviously I would say, a 'creator' would likely be this person that have more artistic merit, and some producers would have less of it, if any.

    I do that lacking artistic merit, is NOT a style, so I don't understand OP's ideas of 'cold' and 'natural'. It seems that perhaps those words are more like a 'perception' of things, and in 'art' critique/history, art thus isn't just this subjective thing. It can be discussed in an objective way, because we share a history of art and art critique. What 'art' IS or isn't, is not interesting, unless one finds it important to defined art as purely subjective thing, or an institutionalized thing ("if an item is displayed at an art room, thus it is art").

    OP wrote:
    "Sad to say the artistic 50% is gone for good !.... No real point, it's locked in… just saying."

    That sounds imo like such bullshit, assuming that the "50%" thing was ever real, or that idea could be construed as being a strawman argument (false) or a fallacy of sorts (irrational).

    What say annoys me folloing a game like Star Citizen, is that, I sort of have this impression that all those guys, never went to art school. Well, maybe some did, but imo it certainly doesn't look like it. Even art history would be valuable I think, being a sensible way to think about things. Not to parrot what others say, but to be both inspired by known and familiar ideas, and also developing a sense of critical sense when it comes to art and anything articstic in general. 
    Post edited by Gamer54321 on
  • cameltosiscameltosis Member EpicPosts: 2,605
    I really dont think you have much idea about how game development really works, but I can't really tell because the terminology used in the OP doesnt match the general sentiment.


    From what I can tell, you have an issue with the way modern games are designed and you are placing the blame on big businesses. You have placed the blame on big businesses because you think that their analytical / technical approach to building games has resulted in boring games, as opposed to the earlier days of gaming when games were built by smaller, passionate teams of pioneers.


    You also keeping using the word "artistic", but it looks like in almost every single case, you are using the term incorrectly.



    So, assuming that I have understood your OP even remotely correctly, here are my responses:


    1) Every games studio is different, so your assumption of technical vs "artistic" design is definitely wrong. Even within a studio, the design approach differs between games. Some games are designed from the start by passionate people, whilst others are designed with the business in focus. The passion can also grow or fade during development.


    2) Passion / "artistic" approach to design is no guarantee of success. In fact, I would often argue that such passion often blinds the designer to genuine faults, whereas a more analytical approach with a wider team will be much better placed to spot problems early on. A clear vision is more important than passion or artistic talent, and good working practices are more important for keeping development moving than relying on passion to motivate the team.


    3) It is the communities fault that AAA games focus on technical aspects, and not the studios fault. For many years now there has been a ton of evidence that GRAPHICS SELLS. the better the graphics, the more it sells, regardless of gameplay. This means that the studios have to invest most of their money into the graphics and can't spend money on the gameplay. so, they stick to tried-and-true gameplay with improved technical aspects because they know it will sell. If they lowered teh graphics in favour of gameplay, the company would soon shut down.


    4) You should learn how designing games actually works. Game designers are rarely programmers. They probably know some code, and maybe they coded some games 20 years ago. But a game designer needs to be a jack-of-all-trades in order to be good. They need to understand the technical aspects, as well as the artistic side of things. But they also need to have a good grasp of psychology, physics, business, economics plus whatever specific subject material is intended for teh game.


    5) The best explanation for what you are seeing is simply the gaming industry maturing, alongside yourself. Sure, the 90s and early 00s saw much more experimentation than now, but you forget that there were just as many failures as successes. As the industry matures, it is only right that they learn the lessons and don't repeat the same mistakes and instead focus on trying to improve upon the successes.

    Combine this with your own experience. When you were younger, you had less experience and so each new game seemed like something exciting. You probably weren't aware that the gameplay had probably already been copied from elsewhere. Now, 20-30 years later, you've seen sooooo much that it's hard to surprise you and its so much easier for you to learn new games. This makes the modern industry seem shit in comparison to your youth, but the truth is that your perspective has simply changed.

    If I could be a 10 year old in the 90s, experiencing games for the first time, or a 10 year old now, I'd choose now. The industry today is soooo much bigger, with so much more variety and a hell of a lot more quality. It just seems boring to you because you have more knowledge now than you used to.




    Dont get me wrong delete, I share a lot of the same frustrations and I greatly dislike the modern MMO landscape. But, in the wider gaming world, the situation is better than it has ever been. The MMO genre is just slightly different, being younger than most other genres, and much more niche.



    Finally, if vanilla WoW released now, it probably would reach #1, simply because there is a lack of competition and because of Blizzard's existing fanbase. However, there is no chance that it would reach the numbers it did at it's peak, or even hit the numbers it currently has. If it had released in 2010 when there was far greater competition, it would have done much worse, probs somewhere between Conan and LotRO numbers.
    k61977Sovrathdelete5230Ancient_Exilelahnmirbotrytis
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,512
    edited April 23
    I really dont think you have much idea about how game development really works, but I can't really tell because the terminology used in the OP doesnt match the general sentiment.


    From what I can tell, you have an issue with the way modern games are designed and you are placing the blame on big businesses. You have placed the blame on big businesses because you think that their analytical / technical approach to building games has resulted in boring games, as opposed to the earlier days of gaming when games were built by smaller, passionate teams of pioneers.


    You also keeping using the word "artistic", but it looks like in almost every single case, you are using the term incorrectly.



    So, assuming that I have understood your OP even remotely correctly, here are my responses:


    1) Every games studio is different, so your assumption of technical vs "artistic" design is definitely wrong. Even within a studio, the design approach differs between games. Some games are designed from the start by passionate people, whilst others are designed with the business in focus. The passion can also grow or fade during development.


    2) Passion / "artistic" approach to design is no guarantee of success. In fact, I would often argue that such passion often blinds the designer to genuine faults, whereas a more analytical approach with a wider team will be much better placed to spot problems early on. A clear vision is more important than passion or artistic talent, and good working practices are more important for keeping development moving than relying on passion to motivate the team.


    3) It is the communities fault that AAA games focus on technical aspects, and not the studios fault. For many years now there has been a ton of evidence that GRAPHICS SELLS. the better the graphics, the more it sells, regardless of gameplay. This means that the studios have to invest most of their money into the graphics and can't spend money on the gameplay. so, they stick to tried-and-true gameplay with improved technical aspects because they know it will sell. If they lowered teh graphics in favour of gameplay, the company would soon shut down.


    4) You should learn how designing games actually works. Game designers are rarely programmers. They probably know some code, and maybe they coded some games 20 years ago. But a game designer needs to be a jack-of-all-trades in order to be good. They need to understand the technical aspects, as well as the artistic side of things. But they also need to have a good grasp of psychology, physics, business, economics plus whatever specific subject material is intended for teh game.


    5) The best explanation for what you are seeing is simply the gaming industry maturing, alongside yourself. Sure, the 90s and early 00s saw much more experimentation than now, but you forget that there were just as many failures as successes. As the industry matures, it is only right that they learn the lessons and don't repeat the same mistakes and instead focus on trying to improve upon the successes.

    Combine this with your own experience. When you were younger, you had less experience and so each new game seemed like something exciting. You probably weren't aware that the gameplay had probably already been copied from elsewhere. Now, 20-30 years later, you've seen sooooo much that it's hard to surprise you and its so much easier for you to learn new games. This makes the modern industry seem shit in comparison to your youth, but the truth is that your perspective has simply changed.

    If I could be a 10 year old in the 90s, experiencing games for the first time, or a 10 year old now, I'd choose now. The industry today is soooo much bigger, with so much more variety and a hell of a lot more quality. It just seems boring to you because you have more knowledge now than you used to.




    Dont get me wrong delete, I share a lot of the same frustrations and I greatly dislike the modern MMO landscape. But, in the wider gaming world, the situation is better than it has ever been. The MMO genre is just slightly different, being younger than most other genres, and much more niche.



    Finally, if vanilla WoW released now, it probably would reach #1, simply because there is a lack of competition and because of Blizzard's existing fanbase. However, there is no chance that it would reach the numbers it did at it's peak, or even hit the numbers it currently has. If it had released in 2010 when there was far greater competition, it would have done much worse, probs somewhere between Conan and LotRO numbers.

    I disagree,

    Yours is well worded, much better explained, grammar perfect.  Infact it's still a good rebuttal. 

    You say, my post is hard to decipher, well that’s common for me I can't help it.  I even re read my stuff, I think it's good enough but some could take "artistic" as graphics…. Maybe a better use of the word would have been "personalized" or "hart felt love"… I understand, I can't type out my feelings very well, so I apologize.   

    However,

    As always I'm fighting an uphill battle on several fronts,

    MOST are not mmorpg players but Games-Online-players.  The mmorgp players here left long time ago with the exception of several that chose to stick and fight or ones that like both or or like to stick and argue ( much like me). 


     My Pantheion example can't be taken lightly and dismissed, it caused quit a stir and showed the separation and frustration between the 50/50 I spoke of.  


    It's a game built with love as opposed to high tech.  Much like testing a well engineered vehicle.  You don't have to be a mechanic to understand the car drives nice…. We don't need to understand the difference between programmer and game designer to know there are two different ways of development. ….. It's very clear. 

     

    We have TWO ways of game play !!!... And like politics, both sides have views.  I can tell were on both opposing side of the argument.  Your way, my way, your much better at the explanation. 

    Like I say I disagree because I'm on the other side of the fence. I'll loose the argument anyway , seems people don't like me. 


    Post edited by delete5230 on
    GdemamimmolouIselin
  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    edited April 22
    At the very least some AAA studio/company could make a 3D Sandbox MMORPG that built on and improved the features, systems, and mechanics of a game like Ultima Online.  Just make the PVP actually fair and fun for the majority of players this time.  I say "the majority of players" instead of "everyone who plays" because I know there's some players that just hate PVP no matter how fair it is.  Of course, those kinds of players shouldn't be playing an open world PVE/PVP MMORPG in the first place.
    Post edited by Ancient_Exile on
    GdemamibotrytisAmaranthar
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,847
    OP i think you got a little lost there ...haha,i'm one to talk :pensive:

    If a studio is making a game,they have people for each job,they don't just grab a coder and tell that person to design the art for the game.An example is they might have an actual artist,we will sue the GW2 guy as an example,a highly touted artist.He didn't know or at least i don't think he knew anything about C++ or Blender/Maya or any of that.

    As to the TECH side of it,ALL of it is technical.

    We have the people designing the mesh,then they determine ways to lower the polycount so games/gpu's /cpu's don't require a quantum computer to run them.Then we have people that are good at making the textures,the skin that goes on to the meshes/models.

    My point is that each job,person on the team SHOULD be quite highly skilled at their job.Technology has made leaps and bounds,there are programs that can simply take a live photo and with help from the employee turn it into an actual scene.

    So the overall look of a game is not bound by any restrictions,it is only a matter of the developer designing a cheap low poly game for whatever reason,cut costs,using a bad game engine,lack of skills etc etc.SO the fact there are no real restrictions other than the fault of the developer really means there are NO excuses.


    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • cameltosiscameltosis Member EpicPosts: 2,605
    snip

    I disagree,

    Yours is well worded, much better explained, grammar perfect.  Infact it's still a good rebuttal. 

    You say, my post is hard to decipher, well that’s common for me I can't help it.  I even re read my stuff, I think it's good enough but some could take "artistic" as graphics…. Maybe a better use of the word would have been "personalized" or "hart felt love"… I understand, I can't type out my feelings very well, so I apologize.   

    However,

    As always I'm fighting an uphill battle on several fronts,

    MOST are not mmorpg players but Games-Online-players.  The mmorgp players here left long time ago with the exception of several that chose to stick and fight or ones that like both or or like to stick and argue ( much like me). 


     My Pantheion example can't be taken lightly and dismissed, it caused quit a stir and showed the separation and frustration between the 50/50 I spoke of.  

    It's a game built with love as opposed to high tech.  Much like testing a well engineered vehicle.  You don't have to be a mechanic to understand the car drives nice…. We don't need to understand the difference between programmer and game designer to know there are two different ways of development. ….. It's very clear. 

     

    We have TWO ways of game play !!!... And like politics, both sides have views.  I can tell were on both opposing side of the argument.  Your way, my way, your much better at the explanation. 

    Like I say I disagree because I'm on the other side of the fence. I'll loose the argument anyway , seems people don't like me. 


    I will dismiss your Pantheon example, for now!

    The only reason I am dismissing it is because the amount of money raised is still pitiful in the grand scheme of things and the game has not released. So, it's effects on the genre, or even its effects on the members of this forum, cannot be judged. We don't know if it will be a success or failure, or even if it will achieve its design goals.

    So, once it has released, I'll re-evaluate, but its impossible to judge it's impact right now.


    I do understand that you want better MMORPGs for you to play, I do too, and I understand that the current market isn't serving your needs. It isn't serving my needs either - I strongly dislike action combat, so the last 7 years or so have been pretty shit for my tastes.


    Finally, don't try to over-simplify the design process or design paradigms. "We have TWO ways of gameplay !!!..." No, we have infinite ways to design and play games! You may see it as a battle of old-school vs new-age, and you may attribute that to passion vs business/tech, but it's not as clear cut as that. There is a definite case to be made that the large amounts of money now involved have made publishers much more risk-averse, resulting in stagnation, but that is just one of the many factors influencing design.


    NB

    I don't know if we're actually on different sides of the fence. I don't like the modern mmorpg market either and haven't found a home for years, so I yearn for change! However, I'm a software engineer, plus I've worked for a large games studio in the UK (only for 6 months and only in QA) so I have a reasonably good idea about how things work behind the scenes. I am only disagreeing with your reasoning on how to improve the market, but I agree that change is needed.

  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303

    I think action combat can be fun, but I also don't think it makes for a good role-playing game.  Action combat drastically limits the options of a player character.  It can also make the implementation of useful non-combat skills and abilities more difficult.

    Games like Tera have far too many buttons to push during combat.  As far as design goes for an action combat system, I far prefer Neverwinter.  Much more intuitive.  BDO was okay.  Still, all of the action combat systems are very limiting in terms of the use of skills and abilities.
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,512
    snip

    I disagree,

    Yours is well worded, much better explained, grammar perfect.  Infact it's still a good rebuttal. 

    You say, my post is hard to decipher, well that’s common for me I can't help it.  I even re read my stuff, I think it's good enough but some could take "artistic" as graphics…. Maybe a better use of the word would have been "personalized" or "hart felt love"… I understand, I can't type out my feelings very well, so I apologize.   

    However,

    As always I'm fighting an uphill battle on several fronts,

    MOST are not mmorpg players but Games-Online-players.  The mmorgp players here left long time ago with the exception of several that chose to stick and fight or ones that like both or or like to stick and argue ( much like me). 


     My Pantheion example can't be taken lightly and dismissed, it caused quit a stir and showed the separation and frustration between the 50/50 I spoke of.  

    It's a game built with love as opposed to high tech.  Much like testing a well engineered vehicle.  You don't have to be a mechanic to understand the car drives nice…. We don't need to understand the difference between programmer and game designer to know there are two different ways of development. ….. It's very clear. 

     

    We have TWO ways of game play !!!... And like politics, both sides have views.  I can tell were on both opposing side of the argument.  Your way, my way, your much better at the explanation. 

    Like I say I disagree because I'm on the other side of the fence. I'll loose the argument anyway , seems people don't like me. 


    I will dismiss your Pantheon example, for now!

    The only reason I am dismissing it is because the amount of money raised is still pitiful in the grand scheme of things and the game has not released. So, it's effects on the genre, or even its effects on the members of this forum, cannot be judged. We don't know if it will be a success or failure, or even if it will achieve its design goals.

    So, once it has released, I'll re-evaluate, but its impossible to judge it's impact right now.


    I do understand that you want better MMORPGs for you to play, I do too, and I understand that the current market isn't serving your needs. It isn't serving my needs either - I strongly dislike action combat, so the last 7 years or so have been pretty shit for my tastes.


    Finally, don't try to over-simplify the design process or design paradigms. "We have TWO ways of gameplay !!!..." No, we have infinite ways to design and play games! You may see it as a battle of old-school vs new-age, and you may attribute that to passion vs business/tech, but it's not as clear cut as that. There is a definite case to be made that the large amounts of money now involved have made publishers much more risk-averse, resulting in stagnation, but that is just one of the many factors influencing design.


    NB

    I don't know if we're actually on different sides of the fence. I don't like the modern mmorpg market either and haven't found a home for years, so I yearn for change! However, I'm a software engineer, plus I've worked for a large games studio in the UK (only for 6 months and only in QA) so I have a reasonably good idea about how things work behind the scenes. I am only disagreeing with your reasoning on how to improve the market, but I agree that change is needed.

    Hay, now I agree with everything,
    You don't often see this coming from me,

    In fact it's not too often for people to agree here or at least admit it. They would much prefer typing something close, or hitting the agree emote on the bottom...... But never actually agree...... Funny how e are :)  
    Gdemamicameltosis
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,421
    You mean like this?





    No, that's not a punk rock band that's the designers of the original batch of EA games back in the mid '80s.

    A lot of people sneered at their "artsy fartsy" pretentiousness back then. Their ads were really unique and stood out. I bet the same people today wish they'd go back to being all about that instead of what they have become.
    Gdemami
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,512
    edited April 23
    Iselin said:
    You mean like this?





    No, that's not a punk rock band that's the designers of the original batch of EA games back in the mid '80s.

    A lot of people sneered at their "artsy fartsy" pretentiousness back then. Their ads were really unique and stood out. I bet the same people today wish they'd go back to being all about that instead of what they have become.
    Nice,

    One could only guess but the original team were most likely a well oiled group of friends that clicked together.  MAKING PERSONALIZED MASTERPIECES ALONG THE WAY. 

    Later corporate took control and it's a robotic interview process and all about credentials. 



    I've been technical in Electro/mechanical, communications, military, even high speed production all my life. I have close to 40 years of experience to know, collage people have it or don't BOTTOM LINE !

    In fact we have this girl now that loves taking every technical class available and gets great marks.  If called into the boss she can explain anything on paper....... yet has never fixed a "single thing ever" in the ten years I know her.  Very odd, you would have to be there to really understand. 

    Gdemami
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,357
    edited April 23
    Iselin said:
    You mean like this?



    No, that's not a punk rock band that's the designers of the original batch of EA games back in the mid '80s.

    A lot of people sneered at their "artsy fartsy" pretentiousness back then. Their ads were really unique and stood out. I bet the same people today wish they'd go back to being all about that instead of what they have become.
    Nice,

    One could only guess but the original team were most likely a well oiled group of friends that clicked together.  MAKING PERSONALIZED MASTERPIECES ALONG THE WAY. 

    Later corporate took control and it's a robotic interview process and all about credentials. 



    I've been technical in Electro/mechanical, communications, military, even high speed production all my life. I have close to 40 years of experience to know, collage people have it or don't BOTTOM LINE !

    In fact we have this girl now that loves taking every technical class available and gets great marks.  If called into the boss she can explain anything on paper....... yet has never fixed a "single thing ever" in the ten years I know her.  Very odd, you would have to be there to really understand. 

    What you have to understand, image before substance will often carry you further in life than the other way around.

    She sounds like perfect upper management material.   :D

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,354
    edited April 23
    I thought you dont' like easy mmorpg.  If my memory is correct, vanilla wow is as easy as it get.  

    I remember boting in wow using only a few button, so I presume it is very easy.  

    I honestly don't know what so special about vanilla wow.  It's like every other generic themepark mmorpg except with less content and no instanced pvp.
    Kyleran
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,512
    AAAMEOW said:
    I thought you dont' like easy mmorpg.  If my memory is correct, vanilla wow is as easy as it get.  

    I remember boting in wow using only a few button, so I presume it is very easy.  

    I honestly don't know what so special about vanilla wow.  It's like every other generic themepark mmorpg except with less content and no instanced pvp.
    Its not round up press the "kill switch" and BOOOOOOM!!!!!

    40 of them are dead.

    That's your mmo. 
  • ShaddyDaddyShaddyDaddy Member UncommonPosts: 187

    This is what sets apart two styles of creativity: 

    1)  You have high tech design where developers get fancy with programming. Dynamic events, cross server realms, personal story lines, high level graphics, video take-a-ways to name just a few.

    This is literally what gaming has done for the past 30+ years. Using the technology to further the story and make it where you are connected with what is going on and be more involved with the world you are playing in. This isn't a bad thing.

     This style in my opinion is smart tech but COLD, it's often a display of "look what we can do to auto play convenience".  It leaves NATURAL lean life style out in every case.  Immersion is never present but a robotic style of play…. Much like reading a tech manual instead of a novel. 

    I'm not sure what you are getting at with this part. Are you talking MMO's or single player games? Because I can tell you that most game development teams are looking at how to fully immerse a player into the game they are playing. FF 14 is an amazing example of rich story within an MMO world. FF7 Remake would be the single player game I would use as an example of caring about the story and immersing you in their world.

    This style often comes from collage educated programmers.  They don't have the "gift of Art" but high scores in collage and a resume from doing it over and over.  This is what Triple A hires.   Remember EA Mass Effect Andromeda… Good example of collage kids trying to be artist, with their big ol professor's degree in computer science.  Besides Anthem failed too, very self absorbed company that think they know best. 

     This portion is interesting and I would love to explore that more in a dialogue that talks about triple A companies banking on a name to make money versus putting ones heart and soul into a story.  Just because something is name brand, doesn't mean you should keep trying to make something to get cash from it. 

    2)  True artist first, then a programmer second……. This is lost completely, it's unacceptable by Triple A.

    I don't think this statement is fair, mainly due to the fact that programmers coming into the industry always want to be a part of the next big thing. We should not judge them based on our preconceived notions of why they are doing what they are doing.

    It's big business Walmart store management (cold) as opposed to a nice country store (warm). 

    Interesting analogy, but not one I agree with.

    A story teller first has no credibility with out high marks in collage, and will never be accepted by big business by today's standards.  No corporate stamp of approval ever !

     This statement makes no sense. I can count multiple games that have come out recently that has an amazing story. Don't lump in your hatred for "Triple A" digital software companies with lack of compassion. You seem petty. 

    A very real popular myth THAT MUST BE OVER COME:

    Triple A and players alike view Artistic as old school old.   Old school is falsely accused of 1990's era nostalgia……. I must ask why must EVERYONE assume this, everyone !.... I've asked this question for years, yet NO ONE HAS EVER PROVIDED AND ANSWER.   

    Why ?..... Because it's a locked in Myth in everyone's mind.  I often go there my self, it's a trick of the mind. 

     I'm going to try to answer this for you, hoping that I understand what you are trying to ask. The nostalgia aspect comes from the majority of us gamers that got introduced to computer gaming (and console gaming in my case), with "high" resolution graphics back in the late 80's and in the 90's. We no longer played text based games, but had high graphic, at the time, interfaces to follow the story and really see what we would normally imagine in our minds eye. There are multiple games that have been released that are beautiful AND tell a wonderful story. God of War would be an example example. Horizon Zero Dawn would be another.

    Proof, that Artistic style is still in high demand, infect thrives ! 

    See my previous statement.

    Pantheon !...... In early stages, this game caused much uproar from a divided community.  It separated the two classes discussed above.  High degree of passion was present on one side of the coin. 

    Pantheon has yet to be released. I reserve judgement until it either crashes and burns or actually releases.

    I'm convinced Vanilla World of Warcraft, would be #1 if launched today. 

    The launch of classic proves this wrong.

    There is a high demand for artistic development of witch there is none other than low budget backing.

    50/50 percent want art style.  Much like politics, passionate arguments break out.   But it's still 50/50 none the less….. Yet we still have nothing for the first 50. 

    Artistic mmorpgs are out for the 50%... Because Triple A will not back this 50% ever again ! 

    With 50/50 player views as the common denominator.  The breaking point would be Triple A production.  It will never happen in big business.  Therefore the scale is tipped in one direction. 

    Sad to say the artistic 50% is gone for good !.... No real point, it's locked in… just saying.

    I don't like this at all. You automatically assume the 50/50 stat with no sort of information to support what you are saying. Did you poll individual gamers? Can you point to a poll or test bed of gamers that were tested based on this? If you can't, then all it is is your personal opinion that you are forcing on all of us.


  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,512
    edited April 24

    This is what sets apart two styles of creativity: 

    1)  You have high tech design where developers get fancy with programming. Dynamic events, cross server realms, personal story lines, high level graphics, video take-a-ways to name just a few.

    This is literally what gaming has done for the past 30+ years. Using the technology to further the story and make it where you are connected with what is going on and be more involved with the world you are playing in. This isn't a bad thing.

     This style in my opinion is smart tech but COLD, it's often a display of "look what we can do to auto play convenience".  It leaves NATURAL lean life style out in every case.  Immersion is never present but a robotic style of play…. Much like reading a tech manual instead of a novel. 

    I'm not sure what you are getting at with this part. Are you talking MMO's or single player games? Because I can tell you that most game development teams are looking at how to fully immerse a player into the game they are playing. FF 14 is an amazing example of rich story within an MMO world. FF7 Remake would be the single player game I would use as an example of caring about the story and immersing you in their world.

    This style often comes from collage educated programmers.  They don't have the "gift of Art" but high scores in collage and a resume from doing it over and over.  This is what Triple A hires.   Remember EA Mass Effect Andromeda… Good example of collage kids trying to be artist, with their big ol professor's degree in computer science.  Besides Anthem failed too, very self absorbed company that think they know best. 

     This portion is interesting and I would love to explore that more in a dialogue that talks about triple A companies banking on a name to make money versus putting ones heart and soul into a story.  Just because something is name brand, doesn't mean you should keep trying to make something to get cash from it. 

    2)  True artist first, then a programmer second……. This is lost completely, it's unacceptable by Triple A.

    I don't think this statement is fair, mainly due to the fact that programmers coming into the industry always want to be a part of the next big thing. We should not judge them based on our preconceived notions of why they are doing what they are doing.

    It's big business Walmart store management (cold) as opposed to a nice country store (warm). 

    Interesting analogy, but not one I agree with.

    A story teller first has no credibility with out high marks in collage, and will never be accepted by big business by today's standards.  No corporate stamp of approval ever !

     This statement makes no sense. I can count multiple games that have come out recently that has an amazing story. Don't lump in your hatred for "Triple A" digital software companies with lack of compassion. You seem petty. 

    A very real popular myth THAT MUST BE OVER COME:

    Triple A and players alike view Artistic as old school old.   Old school is falsely accused of 1990's era nostalgia……. I must ask why must EVERYONE assume this, everyone !.... I've asked this question for years, yet NO ONE HAS EVER PROVIDED AND ANSWER.   

    Why ?..... Because it's a locked in Myth in everyone's mind.  I often go there my self, it's a trick of the mind. 

     I'm going to try to answer this for you, hoping that I understand what you are trying to ask. The nostalgia aspect comes from the majority of us gamers that got introduced to computer gaming (and console gaming in my case), with "high" resolution graphics back in the late 80's and in the 90's. We no longer played text based games, but had high graphic, at the time, interfaces to follow the story and really see what we would normally imagine in our minds eye. There are multiple games that have been released that are beautiful AND tell a wonderful story. God of War would be an example example. Horizon Zero Dawn would be another.

    Proof, that Artistic style is still in high demand, infect thrives ! 

    See my previous statement.

    Pantheon !...... In early stages, this game caused much uproar from a divided community.  It separated the two classes discussed above.  High degree of passion was present on one side of the coin. 

    Pantheon has yet to be released. I reserve judgement until it either crashes and burns or actually releases.

    I'm convinced Vanilla World of Warcraft, would be #1 if launched today. 

    The launch of classic proves this wrong.

    There is a high demand for artistic development of witch there is none other than low budget backing.

    50/50 percent want art style.  Much like politics, passionate arguments break out.   But it's still 50/50 none the less….. Yet we still have nothing for the first 50. 

    Artistic mmorpgs are out for the 50%... Because Triple A will not back this 50% ever again ! 

    With 50/50 player views as the common denominator.  The breaking point would be Triple A production.  It will never happen in big business.  Therefore the scale is tipped in one direction. 

    Sad to say the artistic 50% is gone for good !.... No real point, it's locked in… just saying.

    I don't like this at all. You automatically assume the 50/50 stat with no sort of information to support what you are saying. Did you poll individual gamers? Can you point to a poll or test bed of gamers that were tested based on this? If you can't, then all it is is your personal opinion that you are forcing on all of us.


    I really don't like your response at all,

    Where did you come up with it "not being 50/50".  I've never seen anyplace saying it's not.

    I hope you can come up with some proof its not ?
    Gdemami
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,175
    I hope you can come up with some proof its not ?
    Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

    In other words: You make a claim, you carry the burden of proof.
    MightyUncleanAncient_Exilealkarionlog
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,354
    AAAMEOW said:
    I thought you dont' like easy mmorpg.  If my memory is correct, vanilla wow is as easy as it get.  

    I remember boting in wow using only a few button, so I presume it is very easy.  

    I honestly don't know what so special about vanilla wow.  It's like every other generic themepark mmorpg except with less content and no instanced pvp.
    Its not round up press the "kill switch" and BOOOOOOM!!!!!

    40 of them are dead.

    That's your mmo. 
    I thought my bot script is something like 2, 1, 1, 1 afk 1 minutes.  Looks really easy.
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,512
    Gdemami said:
    I hope you can come up with some proof its not ?
    Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

    In other words: You make a claim, you carry the burden of proof.
    What a bunch of shit. 
    No burden of proof, their is no proof, each game "by it self " is keeping it a trademark secret like any business does. 


    We have this guy here that pretends he had a magical inside tip, everyone here though his bull crap was making him a God, he seems to be calming down on his garbage information lately  :)

    So with all things being "EQUAL",  It's logical it's 50/50..... 



    I'll not waist my time my/our time on this subject. 
    Gdemami
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,421
    Gdemami said:
    I hope you can come up with some proof its not ?
    Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

    In other words: You make a claim, you carry the burden of proof.
    What a bunch of shit. 
    No burden of proof, their is no proof, each game "by it self " is keeping it a trademark secret like any business does. 


    We have this guy here that pretends he had a magical inside tip, everyone here though his bull crap was making him a God, he seems to be calming down on his garbage information lately  :)

    So with all things being "EQUAL",  It's logical it's 50/50..... 



    I'll not waist my time my/our time on this subject. 
    You should have just told the troll "Yeah? prove it." :)
    delete5230
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • ShaddyDaddyShaddyDaddy Member UncommonPosts: 187
    Iselin said:
    Gdemami said:
    I hope you can come up with some proof its not ?
    Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

    In other words: You make a claim, you carry the burden of proof.
    What a bunch of shit. 
    No burden of proof, their is no proof, each game "by it self " is keeping it a trademark secret like any business does. 


    We have this guy here that pretends he had a magical inside tip, everyone here though his bull crap was making him a God, he seems to be calming down on his garbage information lately  :)

    So with all things being "EQUAL",  It's logical it's 50/50..... 



    I'll not waist my time my/our time on this subject. 
    You should have just told the troll "Yeah? prove it." :)
    Wha....what? This dude literally gave a statistic with no proof to support it. You can't just say something like that and have no empirical proof to back it up. Cool, he didn't like my responses. But you can't just throw out a 50/50 response with nothing to back it up. Am I being trolled? 
    delete5230
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,421
    Iselin said:
    Gdemami said:
    I hope you can come up with some proof its not ?
    Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

    In other words: You make a claim, you carry the burden of proof.
    What a bunch of shit. 
    No burden of proof, their is no proof, each game "by it self " is keeping it a trademark secret like any business does. 


    We have this guy here that pretends he had a magical inside tip, everyone here though his bull crap was making him a God, he seems to be calming down on his garbage information lately  :)

    So with all things being "EQUAL",  It's logical it's 50/50..... 



    I'll not waist my time my/our time on this subject. 
    You should have just told the troll "Yeah? prove it." :)
    Wha....what? This dude literally gave a statistic with no proof to support it. You can't just say something like that and have no empirical proof to back it up. Cool, he didn't like my responses. But you can't just throw out a 50/50 response with nothing to back it up. Am I being trolled? 
    Wasn't talking about you. I was talking about the lol troll. And I was just joking about him needing to prove that proof is needed :)
    ShaddyDaddy
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • ShaddyDaddyShaddyDaddy Member UncommonPosts: 187

    This is what sets apart two styles of creativity: 

    1)  You have high tech design where developers get fancy with programming. Dynamic events, cross server realms, personal story lines, high level graphics, video take-a-ways to name just a few.

    This is literally what gaming has done for the past 30+ years. Using the technology to further the story and make it where you are connected with what is going on and be more involved with the world you are playing in. This isn't a bad thing.

     This style in my opinion is smart tech but COLD, it's often a display of "look what we can do to auto play convenience".  It leaves NATURAL lean life style out in every case.  Immersion is never present but a robotic style of play…. Much like reading a tech manual instead of a novel. 

    I'm not sure what you are getting at with this part. Are you talking MMO's or single player games? Because I can tell you that most game development teams are looking at how to fully immerse a player into the game they are playing. FF 14 is an amazing example of rich story within an MMO world. FF7 Remake would be the single player game I would use as an example of caring about the story and immersing you in their world.

    This style often comes from collage educated programmers.  They don't have the "gift of Art" but high scores in collage and a resume from doing it over and over.  This is what Triple A hires.   Remember EA Mass Effect Andromeda… Good example of collage kids trying to be artist, with their big ol professor's degree in computer science.  Besides Anthem failed too, very self absorbed company that think they know best. 

     This portion is interesting and I would love to explore that more in a dialogue that talks about triple A companies banking on a name to make money versus putting ones heart and soul into a story.  Just because something is name brand, doesn't mean you should keep trying to make something to get cash from it. 

    2)  True artist first, then a programmer second……. This is lost completely, it's unacceptable by Triple A.

    I don't think this statement is fair, mainly due to the fact that programmers coming into the industry always want to be a part of the next big thing. We should not judge them based on our preconceived notions of why they are doing what they are doing.

    It's big business Walmart store management (cold) as opposed to a nice country store (warm). 

    Interesting analogy, but not one I agree with.

    A story teller first has no credibility with out high marks in collage, and will never be accepted by big business by today's standards.  No corporate stamp of approval ever !

     This statement makes no sense. I can count multiple games that have come out recently that has an amazing story. Don't lump in your hatred for "Triple A" digital software companies with lack of compassion. You seem petty. 

    A very real popular myth THAT MUST BE OVER COME:

    Triple A and players alike view Artistic as old school old.   Old school is falsely accused of 1990's era nostalgia……. I must ask why must EVERYONE assume this, everyone !.... I've asked this question for years, yet NO ONE HAS EVER PROVIDED AND ANSWER.   

    Why ?..... Because it's a locked in Myth in everyone's mind.  I often go there my self, it's a trick of the mind. 

     I'm going to try to answer this for you, hoping that I understand what you are trying to ask. The nostalgia aspect comes from the majority of us gamers that got introduced to computer gaming (and console gaming in my case), with "high" resolution graphics back in the late 80's and in the 90's. We no longer played text based games, but had high graphic, at the time, interfaces to follow the story and really see what we would normally imagine in our minds eye. There are multiple games that have been released that are beautiful AND tell a wonderful story. God of War would be an example example. Horizon Zero Dawn would be another.

    Proof, that Artistic style is still in high demand, infect thrives ! 

    See my previous statement.

    Pantheon !...... In early stages, this game caused much uproar from a divided community.  It separated the two classes discussed above.  High degree of passion was present on one side of the coin. 

    Pantheon has yet to be released. I reserve judgement until it either crashes and burns or actually releases.

    I'm convinced Vanilla World of Warcraft, would be #1 if launched today. 

    The launch of classic proves this wrong.

    There is a high demand for artistic development of witch there is none other than low budget backing.

    50/50 percent want art style.  Much like politics, passionate arguments break out.   But it's still 50/50 none the less….. Yet we still have nothing for the first 50. 

    Artistic mmorpgs are out for the 50%... Because Triple A will not back this 50% ever again ! 

    With 50/50 player views as the common denominator.  The breaking point would be Triple A production.  It will never happen in big business.  Therefore the scale is tipped in one direction. 

    Sad to say the artistic 50% is gone for good !.... No real point, it's locked in… just saying.

    I don't like this at all. You automatically assume the 50/50 stat with no sort of information to support what you are saying. Did you poll individual gamers? Can you point to a poll or test bed of gamers that were tested based on this? If you can't, then all it is is your personal opinion that you are forcing on all of us.


    I really don't like your response at all,

    Where did you come up with it "not being 50/50".  I've never seen anyplace saying it's not.

    I hope you can come up with some proof its not ?
    I gave a clear and concise response to you. I now realize that you believe your opinion is fact positive. I have wasted both of our time and I'll stop. You should step outside your own personal echo chamber some time. You might learn something.
    Sovrath
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