Quantcast

Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Organizing the riposte to Soulbound Studio

HolyAvengerOneHolyAvengerOne Member UncommonPosts: 690
edited April 6 in Chronicles of Elyria
As most of you know, Jeromy "Caspian" Walsh, founder and CEO of Soulbound Studios LLC recently closed shop with nothing to show after 5 years and 8 millions+ in crowdfunding, blaming pretty much everyone but himself.

https://chroniclesofelyria.com/news/34919/State-of-Elyria-Into-the-Abyss

This happened mere DAYS after that "pre-alpha experience" was launched. It was really close to something a junior could have slapped together using (mostly free) store assets in UE4. Plus a bunch of security issues.

Jeromy says they ran out of money, yet in the 6 months prior to closure, they grossed in $1.6 millions+ USD, including $66k USD in March 2020 alone. They were also still marketing and pushing their latest website promo for virtual lands and nobility titles in the weeks and days before closing abruptly.

It's litterally a slap in the face of all the backers, and most probably of all employees who were blindsided, after so long and so much effort.

Thus we implore anyone who put any money into this project please file a complaint with the Washington AG, It takes literally 5 minutes. Here are SBS business info and the link to complaint. We are the only ones who can find out what really happened. Make your voice heard for 5 minutes of your time. Almost 200 Complaints have already been filed!

Soulbound Studios
11811 NE 1st St Ste B202
Bellevue, WA 98005-3033
(425) 295-2530
Contact@SoulboundStudios.com
For more info, help, or a place to vent visit the official CoE Class Action Discord Server https://discord.gg/Fb9Ekw

Thanks in advance!
Post edited by HolyAvengerOne on
GdemamietlarUngoodRhoklaw
«1

Comments

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,980
    SHit... CoE closed down?

    WTF?

    KumaponKyleranSandmanjw

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • DakeruDakeru Member EpicPosts: 3,792
    Expect to get a lot of lols from Gdemami.
    Gdemami
    Harbinger of Fools
  • kitaradkitarad Member EpicPosts: 5,761
    I wish you luck I honestly do. 
    UngoodGdemami

  • goldboyy45goldboyy45 Member UncommonPosts: 240
    But what about those Gantt charts Caspian vehemently defended?
  • HolyAvengerOneHolyAvengerOne Member UncommonPosts: 690
    edited April 6
    Dakeru said:
    Expect to get a lot of lols from Gdemami.
    Bring 'em lolz ;)

    goldboyy45 said:
    But what about those Gantt charts Caspian vehemently defended?


    He prolly ate them, or was it his dog??
  • HolyAvengerOneHolyAvengerOne Member UncommonPosts: 690
    edited April 6
    kitarad said:
    I wish you luck I honestly do. 
    Thanks!!

    Whatever people may think of this specific project, it's too bad for the crowdfunded indie gaming industry as a whole to see another project go offrail. Indie devs have something to bring to the table in terms of innovation and vision, and I hope we can get to a place where they will be able to put out better, saner projects, that are more likely to see the light, and that us, gamers, will be able to support them in a way that feels less risky/likely to get burned.

    Right now, I think making sure those not doing due dilligence don't get away with it so easily is the best we can do to further that overarching goal.
    KyleranGdemami
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,980
    kitarad said:
    I wish you luck I honestly do. 
    Thanks!!

    Whatever people may think of this specific project, it's too bad for the crowdfunded indie gaming industry as a whole to see another project go offrail. Indie devs have something to bring to the table in terms of innovation and vision, and I hope we can get to a place where they will be able to put out better, saner projects, that are more likely to see the light, and that us, gamers, will be able to support them in a way that feels less risky/likely to get burned.

    Right now, I think making sure those not doing due dilligence don't get away with it so easily is the best we can do to further that overarching goal.
    This is why we cannot just ignore "bad things" simply because it's a game we do not play.  We do not live in a vacuum and there is cross-contamination from other games.  Remember this the next time someone says "If you do not like this developer just leave".

    Gdemami

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • HolyAvengerOneHolyAvengerOne Member UncommonPosts: 690
    kitarad said:
    I wish you luck I honestly do. 
    Thanks!!

    Whatever people may think of this specific project, it's too bad for the crowdfunded indie gaming industry as a whole to see another project go offrail. Indie devs have something to bring to the table in terms of innovation and vision, and I hope we can get to a place where they will be able to put out better, saner projects, that are more likely to see the light, and that us, gamers, will be able to support them in a way that feels less risky/likely to get burned.

    Right now, I think making sure those not doing due dilligence don't get away with it so easily is the best we can do to further that overarching goal.
    This is why we cannot just ignore "bad things" simply because it's a game we do not play.  We do not live in a vacuum and there is cross-contamination from other games.  Remember this the next time someone says "If you do not like this developer just leave".

    Not wrong, but I think there are degrees to that.

    Whereas I won't ever support someone doing something scammy, or won't shy (or try not to) from giving and accepting critics of a doubtful project, some players do come to a game asking for some fundamental changes (say, a PVE story-based) to the original concept or visions (say: add PVP!). It's fine to ask questions, but sometimes when it becomes a ceaseless, improductive rant, well yeah, then "just leave" should be an acceptable answe
    GdemamiAmathe
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,980
    kitarad said:
    I wish you luck I honestly do. 
    Thanks!!

    Whatever people may think of this specific project, it's too bad for the crowdfunded indie gaming industry as a whole to see another project go offrail. Indie devs have something to bring to the table in terms of innovation and vision, and I hope we can get to a place where they will be able to put out better, saner projects, that are more likely to see the light, and that us, gamers, will be able to support them in a way that feels less risky/likely to get burned.

    Right now, I think making sure those not doing due dilligence don't get away with it so easily is the best we can do to further that overarching goal.
    This is why we cannot just ignore "bad things" simply because it's a game we do not play.  We do not live in a vacuum and there is cross-contamination from other games.  Remember this the next time someone says "If you do not like this developer just leave".

    Not wrong, but I think there are degrees to that.

    Whereas I won't ever support someone doing something scammy, or won't shy (or try not to) from giving and accepting critics of a doubtful project, some players do come to a game asking for some fundamental changes (say, a PVE story-based) to the original concept or visions (say: add PVP!). It's fine to ask questions, but sometimes when it becomes a ceaseless, improductive rant, well yeah, then "just leave" should be an acceptable answe
    Depends on the game.  You did in fact support someone doing something scammy in COE.  You may not have realized it. 

    Look at it this way:  If Walsh launched another project someday would you not relentlessly dog him?  Even if someone said it was an unproductive rant? 
    GdemamiKyleranRhoklaw

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • HolyAvengerOneHolyAvengerOne Member UncommonPosts: 690
    Depends on the game.  You did in fact support someone doing something scammy in COE.  You may not have realized it. 

    Look at it this way:  If Walsh launched another project someday would you not relentlessly dog him?  Even if someone said it was an unproductive rant? 
    Yeah, that all falls within the realms of the exceptions I mentionned XD


    Gdemami
  • YanocchiYanocchi Member UncommonPosts: 670

    It was really close to something a junior could have slapped together using (mostly free) store assets in UE4.

    You know, four or five years ago, I actually wrote right here on this forum in some thread that Jeromy Walsh can buy some really nice assets from the UE4 store for $4.99. Jeromy Walsh replied to my post and thanked me for pointing him to those assets.

    I gave him this link back then.


    Gdemami
    Baldur's Gate Online - Video Trailer
    * more info, screenshots and videos here

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,040
    Good Luck.. I sincerely hope that you all nail him to the wall to make an example to anyone else that tries to do the same.


    Gdemami
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,022
    Ungood said:
    Good Luck.. I sincerely hope that you all nail him to the wall to make an example to anyone else that tries to do the same.


    Naw, scammers gonna scam, it's a tale as old as time.


    Gdemami

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • jahlonjahlon Member UncommonPosts: 376
    Problem is, if they have no money then what are you going to get out of them?

    The stone can't bleed.   He might catch a fine, but if his paperwork is in order properly then well, its his broke company that will catch the fines. 

    Not like anyone is getting a refund in any of this.   
    Kyleran
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,980
    jahlon said:
    Problem is, if they have no money then what are you going to get out of them?

    The stone can't bleed.   He might catch a fine, but if his paperwork is in order properly then well, its his broke company that will catch the fines. 

    Not like anyone is getting a refund in any of this.   
    Depends on what level of liability is assigned to Kickstarter or Xsolla.  Kickstarter has guidelines related to the amount of money needing to be enough for the whole project.   People can claim to have relied on that.  Do they own a >0% liability?   If yes then that opens up a path for potential money.  With Xsolla they processed payments until the game shut down but have denied refunds in many cases.   Do they own a >0% liability?  If so then that open up another path for potential money.

    And both of them will then put a lot of pressure on Walsh who had better have his books clean.

    Gdemami

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,022
    edited May 23
    jahlon said:
    Problem is, if they have no money then what are you going to get out of them?

    The stone can't bleed.   He might catch a fine, but if his paperwork is in order properly then well, its his broke company that will catch the fines. 

    Not like anyone is getting a refund in any of this.   
    Depends on what level of liability is assigned to Kickstarter or Xsolla.  Kickstarter has guidelines related to the amount of money needing to be enough for the whole project.   People can claim to have relied on that.  Do they own a >0% liability?   If yes then that opens up a path for potential money.  With Xsolla they processed payments until the game shut down but have denied refunds in many cases.   Do they own a >0% liability?  If so then that open up another path for potential money.

    And both of them will then put a lot of pressure on Walsh who had better have his books clean.

    You are totally grasping at straws. KSer has always stated in their TOS they are not involved in the contact between the two parties, this sheild has never been broken to my knowledge.

    Xsolla is strictly a payment processor, nothing more.  

    What's next, sue credit card companies for paying someone else because they paid someone money at your instruction?

    The issue and its resolution lies totally between COE and their backers.
    tzervo

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • VrikaVrika Member EpicPosts: 6,300
    Kyleran said:
    jahlon said:
    Problem is, if they have no money then what are you going to get out of them?

    The stone can't bleed.   He might catch a fine, but if his paperwork is in order properly then well, its his broke company that will catch the fines. 

    Not like anyone is getting a refund in any of this.   
    Depends on what level of liability is assigned to Kickstarter or Xsolla.  Kickstarter has guidelines related to the amount of money needing to be enough for the whole project.   People can claim to have relied on that.  Do they own a >0% liability?   If yes then that opens up a path for potential money.  With Xsolla they processed payments until the game shut down but have denied refunds in many cases.   Do they own a >0% liability?  If so then that open up another path for potential money.

    And both of them will then put a lot of pressure on Walsh who had better have his books clean.

    You are totally grasping at straws. KSer has always stated in their TOS they are not involved in the contact between the two parties, this sheild has never been broken to my knowledge.

    Xsolla is strictly a payment processor, nothing more.  

    What's next, sue credit card companies for paying someone else because they paid someone money at your instruction?

    The issue and its resolution lies totally between COE and their backers.
    I think Kickstarter or Xsolla would only be liable:
     -If they themselves (not CoE) had violated their own terms, or
     -If they had known that CoE is violating terms without acting on that violation

    You can't normally place actors like Kickstarter or Xsolla much responsibility to check stuff, as long as they do a check that the company they're paying for actually exists. Their responsibility is more limited to their own actions and to cases where you can prove that they were aware of a violation but ignored it
    Gdemamitzervo
     
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,980
    Kyleran said:
    jahlon said:
    Problem is, if they have no money then what are you going to get out of them?

    The stone can't bleed.   He might catch a fine, but if his paperwork is in order properly then well, its his broke company that will catch the fines. 

    Not like anyone is getting a refund in any of this.   
    Depends on what level of liability is assigned to Kickstarter or Xsolla.  Kickstarter has guidelines related to the amount of money needing to be enough for the whole project.   People can claim to have relied on that.  Do they own a >0% liability?   If yes then that opens up a path for potential money.  With Xsolla they processed payments until the game shut down but have denied refunds in many cases.   Do they own a >0% liability?  If so then that open up another path for potential money.

    And both of them will then put a lot of pressure on Walsh who had better have his books clean.

    You are totally grasping at straws. KSer has always stated in their TOS they are not involved in the contact between the two parties, this sheild has never been broken to my knowledge.

    Xsolla is strictly a payment processor, nothing more.  

    What's next, sue credit card companies for paying someone else because they paid someone money at your instruction?

    The issue and its resolution lies totally between COE and their backers.
    Hey... I can only pass on what I see people pursuing on the Discord.

    Xsolla actually has a refund policy related to pre-orders from what I hear but since they don't owe me anything I really don't care to dig in.

    Bottom line is that no lawyer is going to take a case if they cannot see a path to making money.  That is unlikely to come from SbS.


    Gdemami

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • jahlonjahlon Member UncommonPosts: 376
    So Kickstarter is out of the equation 14 days after the crowdfunding event ends.  There is a window after the end of the campaign through until when they send the money to the project creator where Kickstarter will in fact give a refund.  This is because at that time, they are still holding onto the pile of money and they have money to give a refund with.

    After that 14 day window, Kickstarter no longer has the money, so they will direct you to the project creator and tell you to engage with them on a refund.  

    To date, I don't personally know of anyone who has done a chargeback against Kickstarter and been successful.


    With Xsolla, again, they are not liable to provide refunds (unless they do something like violate their own terms, or its a stolen credit card thing but in those cases, your credit card company intervenes on your behalf).  Xsolla doesn't give refunds.  Xsolla "processes" refunds.  They simply pass the refund requests through to the other party, in this case Soundbound Studios.

    Now, sometimes, a payment processor (in this example PayPal) will give refunds directly, but that's because of a violation of terms, agreement, etc. and they get absolutely bombarded with chargeback requests.   Archeage 4.5 is a good example of this.  I put my refund request in and had to wait 10 days.  People who put their request in 2 or 3 days after me, got their refund right away because PayPal got so many refund requests that they just issued refunds out of the money they were holding for Trion Worlds.

    Had PayPal been holding $0 of Trion's money, they wouldn't have given refunds.  The payment processor isn't going to go broke because a client is stupid.


    At the end of the day, if Caspian is as big of a fuck up as it appears and Soulbound has $0 in the bank, then he'll just walk into court and literally say "Here are my books.  I have no money"

    Even if he does get fined, that money won't go to the customers, but to the state.  
    tzervo
  • OrangeBoyOrangeBoy Member UncommonPosts: 213
    Kyleran said:
    Ungood said:
    Good Luck.. I sincerely hope that you all nail him to the wall to make an example to anyone else that tries to do the same.


    Naw, scammers gonna scam, it's a tale as old as time.


    In a society that lets them do it "legally" without any repercussions you're going to see scammers being lauded as Gods. This is why the western world has failed in terms of their justice systems where legality (which is dubious at best considering the supreme court's --supposed highest court with supposed most brilliant minds in legal theory-- disgusting rulings) overrides common sense and morality.

    Any person with an inkling of common sense would understand the stuff Caspian pulled and would bring this upon further inspection in front of a judge or a ruling body where they would at the very least audit and cross-examine Caspian. But because the law says its okay to do this, he's A-okay.

    And with the neanderthals in the discord being a shit storm, and the deaf idiots in the CoE community, it's hard to feel bad for such stupid people.
    Gdemami
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 21,943
    Unless you want to make it a criminal offense to underestimate the resources necessary to make a game, it's hard to see what the legal system could do about this.  If he took money that was donated for game development and just kept it himself, then yeah, you'd have a good complaint.  But if he spent the money on developing the game and simply ran out, that may be incompetence, but it's not fraud.
  • OrangeBoyOrangeBoy Member UncommonPosts: 213
    Quizzical said:
    Unless you want to make it a criminal offense to underestimate the resources necessary to make a game, it's hard to see what the legal system could do about this.  If he took money that was donated for game development and just kept it himself, then yeah, you'd have a good complaint.  But if he spent the money on developing the game and simply ran out, that may be incompetence, but it's not fraud.
    Consider the questionable circumstances around this project, and you tell me why a professional in the industry could not see this coming. I agree that one of the alternatives to fraud could be incompetence (CoE's community saw a lot of it in missed dead-line and barely working events/forums) but looking at the whole picture, it seems more aligned with fraud.

    Again, you could ask what makes me sure about this being fraud, and I would say I can ascribe fraud as much as incompetence, if not more so, to this entire circus.

    Consider the AG reports, the numerous requests to Paypal, Xsolla, Credit-card companies, etc and the discrepancy about what was originally promised to the backers about raising funds to complete the MMO.

    Consider the leaks on discord and the entire community pulling contradictory information from private and public talks with Casp.

    Consider the numerous youtube videos made about this shady MMO and the materials presented by these big youtubers against CoE.

    If considering the entire project as a whole, you would be hard-pressed to convince a normal person that this in no way could be fraud, and that this entire failure could be chalked up as incompetence alone.

    What could a legal justice system do? A lot, in fact they already do something very similar against general dentists (one example of many) who preform oral surgery that they are ill-prepared (incompetent) to do. Or incompetent parents who leave their children in cars that end up baking their kids. In a way, the later example suits CoE very well, CoE (fraud/parent) leaves the community (idiots/child) in a car to bake.

    You are basically assuming Caspian did this out of incompetence, does this mean his incompetence equals zero responsibility if it indeed was idiocy and incompetence?

    Don't think legal system are the be-all end-all, we see way too many examples of dog-shit rulings and laws that are morally bankrupt. Of course laws have their place, but they shouldn't overrule common sense to maintain an image.
    Gdemami
  • VrikaVrika Member EpicPosts: 6,300
    OrangeBoy said:
    If considering the entire project as a whole, you would be hard-pressed to convince a normal person that this in no way could be fraud, and that this entire failure could be chalked up as incompetence alone.

    What could a legal justice system do? A lot, in fact they already do something very similar against general dentists (one example of many) who preform oral surgery that they are ill-prepared (incompetent) to do. Or incompetent parents who leave their children in cars that end up baking their kids. In a way, the later example suits CoE very well, CoE (fraud/parent) leaves the community (idiots/child) in a car to bake.
    Legal system can act against incompetent dentists and parents who leave children in a car because there's a rule they have broken. For example:
     -Don't sell medical operations without qualification
     -Don't leave children or pets in a car

    For CoE it's harder to act because there isn't and there can't be a rule against making bad estimations. Punishments are only given to those who break rules, not to those who are merely idiots.
    Gdemami
     
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,536
    You need a real good lawyer and an angle AND someone to listen.

    My guess is the best approach would be to get the government to do an audit.The problem is that the way the laws work is that even if they found he was for example stashing money away,treating the business as a for profit business,all that would happen is they would make him pay the appropriate taxes.This is the same way charities work,laws are structured so that you can be a part time criminal as long as you pay the government a bit of money.

    What is a complaint with the governor of Washington going to do exactly?So one person who typically reads the letters..IF they read them,will put this into a priority pile,likely the low priority pile.

    Even if the complaints got passed up the line to an important person,an investigation would have to be launched,money and time with nothing in it for the government.

    When you see offices like for example the FTC laying out fines ,THAT is the true reason they acted ,they saw $$$$ for their coffers so they went after the culprits.I found it funny when i was just reading over their site and seeing them still bragging about the Warner Bros fines,that was at least a year ago,this is how LAZY government offices are,they only move when they see BIG $$$.

    I do feel for all the people who have been very frustrated over the years but take this as a lesson learned,you become wiser with age.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • OrangeBoyOrangeBoy Member UncommonPosts: 213
    Vrika said:
    OrangeBoy said:
    If considering the entire project as a whole, you would be hard-pressed to convince a normal person that this in no way could be fraud, and that this entire failure could be chalked up as incompetence alone.

    What could a legal justice system do? A lot, in fact they already do something very similar against general dentists (one example of many) who preform oral surgery that they are ill-prepared (incompetent) to do. Or incompetent parents who leave their children in cars that end up baking their kids. In a way, the later example suits CoE very well, CoE (fraud/parent) leaves the community (idiots/child) in a car to bake.
    Legal system can act against incompetent dentists and parents who leave children in a car because there's a rule they have broken. For example:
     -Don't sell medical operations without qualification
     -Don't leave children or pets in a car

    For CoE it's harder to act because there isn't and there can't be a rule against making bad estimations. Punishments are only given to those who break rules, not to those who are merely idiots.

    Yes, I said legal system do act against those two scenarios but
    you're not getting my point. The point I'm making is that legal systems (and I'm speaking particularly about western legal systems) fail when the matter at hand warrants further inquiring based on shady practices that are recognized as unfair by the average person through common sense only to be dismissed since the action in question does not break a "law" even though it is morally wrong. This serves as a paradox for the idea of "laws" to being moral and ethical in the first place.

    I'm going to gloss over the medical operations/dentist stuff because it's a bit more convoluted regarding what surgeries general dentists should and should not do when a patient requires oral surgery that would be better suited to a maxillo-facial specialist/periodontist/oral surgeon...

    Instead, I'll focus on the parent leaving their kid in a car scenario.

    Legal systems are extremely fallible on their own because where one legal system in America/Europe may say that it's wrong to leave your child in a car, another system somewhere else (different state, province, or even city) may say it's entirely fine as long as you leave the windows down and/or if the child is of a certain age among other circumstances.

    In this case, where one system deems leaving the child in a car to possibly roast to death or get kidnapped to be entirely okay another one would put you behind bars for incompetence with the possibility of taking your child away. This sense of a "legal system" without common sense or a consistent doctrine blurs the ideas of incompetence and what is ethically right. 

    So in summary, no, legal systems (again, western legal systems in general) have a tendency to fail because of it's own vagueness and it's steadfast idea of remaining true to the law even if it means letting people get away with incompetence and fraud.
    Gdemami
Sign In or Register to comment.