I always kinda thought of my MMO experience as a simple villager, and there was an ogre in a cave nearby that was causing all kinds of troubles,,,,no one of us was strong enough to kill it, so we had to band together....EQ was really about the only game that fit that thought process....Almsot all of the others I could kill the ogre by myself without batting an eye.
Well you are in luck.. if you decided to play DDO, get the Sub package that allows you to open any difficulty, and pick one that sounds hard, like Reaper 10, it will beat you, suprise buttasux you, chew you up and spit you back out.. and keep doing that till you realize it sucks.. ask for help, and realize that it will take you about 3 years of grinding, and 10 past lives to be ready to handle that level of content.
The come here and tell us all how much you loved that kind of difficulty.
I'll come here right now, And say the game seems VERY unbalanced. Most likely because you have to spend $$ in the cash shop and sub for what you say to open up the difficulty....... I don't think anyone should play this type of torcher for 3 years...... Sounds like it sucks all around DDO !
This is typical of F^%$ UP with mmorpgs !
I can't believe you wrote this as serious materiel
It's a Sub.. you know.. that self same sub fee that so many on this forum gush about and praise and begs would come back..
Well.. They offer that to make life easy to allow you spend 15 for the month and enjoy the game with all the joys of a sub fee.
Not sure why anyone has an issue with that.. when it's what so many beg and plead would return.
And now your justifying that this type of trickery is OK.
Collage should teach a coarse on the finer arts of not getting ripped off with DDO or LoTro and how to spend your money.
But hay, they have packages and deals now and then because there the good guys. Sounds like Stockholm syndrome where they lock you in a room for three years, then they treat you nice one day
I always kinda thought of my MMO experience as a simple villager, and there was an ogre in a cave nearby that was causing all kinds of troubles,,,,no one of us was strong enough to kill it, so we had to band together....EQ was really about the only game that fit that thought process....Almsot all of the others I could kill the ogre by myself without batting an eye.
Well you are in luck.. if you decided to play DDO, get the Sub package that allows you to open any difficulty, and pick one that sounds hard, like Reaper 10, it will beat you, suprise buttasux you, chew you up and spit you back out.. and keep doing that till you realize it sucks.. ask for help, and realize that it will take you about 3 years of grinding, and 10 past lives to be ready to handle that level of content.
The come here and tell us all how much you loved that kind of difficulty.
I'll come here right now, And say the game seems VERY unbalanced. Most likely because you have to spend $$ in the cash shop and sub for what you say to open up the difficulty....... I don't think anyone should play this type of torcher for 3 years...... Sounds like it sucks all around DDO !
This is typical of F^%$ UP with mmorpgs !
I can't believe you wrote this as serious materiel
It's a Sub.. you know.. that self same sub fee that so many on this forum gush about and praise and begs would come back..
Well.. They offer that to make life easy to allow you spend 15 for the month and enjoy the game with all the joys of a sub fee.
Not sure why anyone has an issue with that.. when it's what so many beg and plead would return.
And now your justifying that this type of trickery is OK.
Collage should teach a coarse on the finer arts of not getting ripped off with DDO or LoTro and how to spend your money.
But hay, they have packages and deals now and then because there the good guys. Sounds like Stockholm syndrome where they lock you in a room for three years, then they treat you nice one day
LOL.. DDo was originally a Sub Based Game, they just made it optional.
I don't get how people beg and praise the almighty sub, and then lose their shit when they are asked to spend money to play a game.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I always kinda thought of my MMO experience as a simple villager, and there was an ogre in a cave nearby that was causing all kinds of troubles,,,,no one of us was strong enough to kill it, so we had to band together....EQ was really about the only game that fit that thought process....Almsot all of the others I could kill the ogre by myself without batting an eye.
Well you are in luck.. if you decided to play DDO, get the Sub package that allows you to open any difficulty, and pick one that sounds hard, like Reaper 10, it will beat you, suprise buttasux you, chew you up and spit you back out.. and keep doing that till you realize it sucks.. ask for help, and realize that it will take you about 3 years of grinding, and 10 past lives to be ready to handle that level of content.
The come here and tell us all how much you loved that kind of difficulty.
I'll come here right now, And say the game seems VERY unbalanced. Most likely because you have to spend $$ in the cash shop and sub for what you say to open up the difficulty....... I don't think anyone should play this type of torcher for 3 years...... Sounds like it sucks all around DDO !
This is typical of F^%$ UP with mmorpgs !
I can't believe you wrote this as serious materiel
It's a Sub.. you know.. that self same sub fee that so many on this forum gush about and praise and begs would come back..
Well.. They offer that to make life easy to allow you spend 15 for the month and enjoy the game with all the joys of a sub fee.
Not sure why anyone has an issue with that.. when it's what so many beg and plead would return.
And now your justifying that this type of trickery is OK.
Collage should teach a coarse on the finer arts of not getting ripped off with DDO or LoTro and how to spend your money.
But hay, they have packages and deals now and then because there the good guys. Sounds like Stockholm syndrome where they lock you in a room for three years, then they treat you nice one day
LOL.. DDo was originally a Sub Based Game, they just made it optional.
I don't get how people beg and praise the almighty sub, and then lose their shit when they are asked to spend money to play a game.
Sure, I'll give you all of that, but the way you told that story about finding difficulty made it sound like "pay me first" and the game will turn normal. Maybe the way you phrased it sounded funny
I've actually doing some study of DDO.....And a they seem to put the player in an awkward bind where you have to pay a sub to GET THE DIFFICULTY BOOST, AND ADVENTURE PACKAGES. Yet must buy many F2P stuff too..... Most sub would allow the player to relax on spending if you sub, they seem to lean you to both.... I think this is one of the more unfair systems.
I con never take the "you can always play for free excuse"...... NO, I expect to pay, just make it fair.
delete5230 said: Sounds like Stockholm syndrome where they lock you in a room for three years, then they treat you nice one day
Also.. yah.. that is exactly what a "Hardcore" game is about, it's not easy when you start, it kicks your ass all over the place, and you need struggle and work your ass off, and put in the time, to get to the point where you can beat it.
That is the whole point of Challenge, to make you pay your dues at the start, to make you work, and struggle, so, with that said, you just called what you classify as Challenge, "Stockholm Syndrome", and then you wonder why games don't put it in?
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
*Raises a glass from quarantine* Nice to see some things haven't changed.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
Trying a new
approach someone suggested, keep it short and to the point.
Short version,
In studying Elders
Scrolls Online, I pumped myself up with so much energy to play it was amazing. Features, quality, graphics. Could
actually surpass World of Warcraft.
This is until I
watched Youtube footage. No damage
ever. People maximizing their characters
along with deep crafting……… all for what ?.... To gather 40 and kill them all
faster than just 30 ?
Really, REALLY
!!! Whats with that ?
Three possible
reasons I could think of:
- low amount of
content, get you to end game in 30 days, and lazy balance of creatures.
- 4 year old Johnny
can play too.
- Rush you to the
next paid expansion.
Same with GW2, FF14,
ESO, WoW and most all second generation games.
My Final point TURN
UP THE DIFFICULTY X10 and all these games became mmorpg's again (with
community). Other than balancing things,
all normal features seem to be in place automatically.
Short
Problem: I saw a youtube video where character X took no damage!
Solution: Don't play like character X if you want the game to be harder.
Short.
Your post lacks any context for the video. For all anyone knows, this could be a highly developed, highly geared player messing around with comparative fodder. It could be the fruition of an exceptionally powerful build taking on apt content.
Regardless, ESO has group content. Those wishing to participate in the most extreme of that are expected to bring particular builds noted for their power and perform well with them. If that's what you want, then go for it until you get there.
If you'd rather not take it to that extreme, you could instead play a lesser build and take on more difficult content than the game is inclined to hand out in offered missions. It is easy to seek out challenging encounters overland or in any of the many delves you can enter largely at your whim.
You can make ESO as hard as you want. If you are keen to do so with others, perhaps you can find some like-minded fellows, or form a guild devoted to such.
Trying a new
approach someone suggested, keep it short and to the point.
Short version,
In studying Elders
Scrolls Online, I pumped myself up with so much energy to play it was amazing. Features, quality, graphics. Could
actually surpass World of Warcraft.
This is until I
watched Youtube footage. No damage
ever. People maximizing their characters
along with deep crafting……… all for what ?.... To gather 40 and kill them all
faster than just 30 ?
Really, REALLY
!!! Whats with that ?
Three possible
reasons I could think of:
- low amount of
content, get you to end game in 30 days, and lazy balance of creatures.
- 4 year old Johnny
can play too.
- Rush you to the
next paid expansion.
Same with GW2, FF14,
ESO, WoW and most all second generation games.
My Final point TURN
UP THE DIFFICULTY X10 and all these games became mmorpg's again (with
community). Other than balancing things,
all normal features seem to be in place automatically.
Short
Problem: I saw a youtube video where character X took no damage!
Solution: Don't play like character X if you want the game to be harder.
Short.
Your post lacks any context for the video. For all anyone knows, this could be a highly developed, highly geared player messing around with comparative fodder. It could be the fruition of an exceptionally powerful build taking on apt content.
Regardless, ESO has group content. Those wishing to participate in the most extreme of that are expected to bring particular builds noted for their power and perform well with them. If that's what you want, then go for it until you get there.
If you'd rather not take it to that extreme, you could instead play a lesser build and take on more difficult content than the game is inclined to hand out in offered missions. It is easy to seek out challenging encounters overland or in any of the many delves you can enter largely at your whim.
You can make ESO as hard as you want. If you are keen to do so with others, perhaps you can find some like-minded fellows, or form a guild devoted to such.
Lots of good advice here to increase "self challenge". Also some good advice to "seek other for a challenge".
BUT an mmorpg should have automatic challenge. It's like the play naked thing....It's not right or not natural for a game to be that way in a co-op setting.
It's not about tips and trick its about the over all persona of the game.
An mmorpg original Intent is to have a harsh environment for all. Where did I get this definition from ?...... It was an un spoken given, no one talks about it, it was that much of a given.
For the life of me, How can anyone care to be a healer, when healing is not needed. How can someone want to lead a party and take damage if no damage is dealt. Why craft if gear and stats mean zero. Why really want that power ability way down on the tree if it has no meaning ?
Why go off and test builds for best performance if the scale is so far off you ned to fight 40 mobs to give you an indicate of strength ?
Are people really playing simply for story and treasure?
Or is it the only choice by developer design ?
I'm mystified on how no one seems to care about challenge AT ALL... It's like no one here.
Lots of good advice here to increase "self challenge". Also some good advice to "seek other for a challenge".
[...]
I'm mystified on how no one seems to care about challenge AT ALL... It's like no one here.
You ain't the only one, far from it... but I'm just as much baffled on your struggle with this concept since years now...
Brackets or not, "self challenge" is the only challenge out there, since it's a personal preference. What's the perfect "sweet spot" for player A could be faceroll easy to player B and gamebreaking-level difficult to player C.
No matter what method you pick (simple catch-up, power-based mob spawns, scaling, etc.), hell even if you throw in AI to analyse and figure out the player's challenge preference, it won't be perfect and will leave players behind - a lot or a few, depends on how much work the dev puts into it, but there's no solution for pleasing all. That's why the difficulty settings is the only solution which stood the test of time.
But there's an extra issue when it's an MMORPG and not a singleplayer game. It still can have difficulty settings, so players can simply hone it to their preferences and liking, but only a few games have it - plenty of work to make it right.
An mmorpg original Intent is to have a harsh environment for all. Where did I get this definition from ?...... It was an un spoken given, no one talks about it, it was that much of a given.
Nope, since there's no such thing as "for all". Like I said above, what's harsh for one, maybe faceroll for others who will complain, while too hard for many others who will complain and leave.
And it was always the case, even in the MUD era there were tweaks and adjustments based on the player feedbacks, if they've found something too easy or too tough.
The original intent, and not just MMORPGs but all games, is to give an optimal gameplay experience for the most players they can (around the peak of the bell curve if you like), and provide options for the rest of the playerbase to tweak the gameplay to their liking.
In MMORPGs some do it with the aformentioned difficulty setting (CO, DDO for example).
The others either let the players decide in some form, under/overlevel content, disable xp, drop gear ("play naked" as you said),
or just forcibly scale everyone to an ideal the devs think fine, and call it a day.
(sidenote, I'm loudly against this latter solution, sadly it's more and more common, because of it takes much less work and effort from the dev's side, and they're lazy.)
Your main issue is (and I'm with you on this, for the record) that you (we) are not within the bell curve peak for present era's gaming.
Yep, it's true, most games' default setting is easy, and most veteran players would agree on that. But it's at that state for a reason, that's where the majority of the current players are.
And that's why your "make the games more difficult, because I'd like that" will never work, they would lose much more players than the gain of a few joining veteran players.
Not to mention, why would they do such a change, when those players still can tweak their difficulty in the current game?
And we're back at square one. If you don't like the difficulty of a game, it's up to you. You can complain about it, or you can just adjust your game. Call it "self challenge" or not, the option is yours.
Lots of good advice here to increase "self challenge". Also some good advice to "seek other for a challenge".
[...]
I'm mystified on how no one seems to care about challenge AT ALL... It's like no one here.
You ain't the only one, far from it... but I'm just as much baffled on your struggle with this concept since years now...
Brackets or not, "self challenge" is the only challenge out there, since it's a personal preference. What's the perfect "sweet spot" for player A could be faceroll easy to player B and gamebreaking-level difficult to player C.
No matter what method you pick (simple catch-up, power-based mob spawns, scaling, etc.), hell even if you throw in AI to analyse and figure out the player's challenge preference, it won't be perfect and will leave players behind - a lot or a few, depends on how much work the dev puts into it, but there's no solution for pleasing all. That's why the difficulty settings is the only solution which stood the test of time.
But there's an extra issue when it's an MMORPG and not a singleplayer game. It still can have difficulty settings, so players can simply hone it to their preferences and liking, but only a few games have it - plenty of work to make it right.
An mmorpg original Intent is to have a harsh environment for all. Where did I get this definition from ?...... It was an un spoken given, no one talks about it, it was that much of a given.
Nope, since there's no such thing as "for all". Like I said above, what's harsh for one, maybe faceroll for others who will complain, while too hard for many others who will complain and leave.
And it was always the case, even in the MUD era there were tweaks and adjustments based on the player feedbacks, if they've found something too easy or too tough.
The original intent, and not just MMORPGs but all games, is to give an optimal gameplay experience for the most players they can (around the peak of the bell curve if you like), and provide options for the rest of the playerbase to tweak the gameplay to their liking.
In MMORPGs some do it with the aformentioned difficulty setting (CO, DDO for example).
The others either let the players decide in some form, under/overlevel content, disable xp, drop gear ("play naked" as you said),
or just forcibly scale everyone to an ideal the devs think fine, and call it a day.
(sidenote, I'm loudly against this latter solution, sadly it's more and more common, because of it takes much less work and effort from the dev's side, and they're lazy.)
Your main issue is (and I'm with you on this, for the record) that you (we) are not within the bell curve peak for present era's gaming.
Yep, it's true, most games' default setting is easy, and most veteran players would agree on that. But it's at that state for a reason, that's where the majority of the current players are.
And that's why your "make the games more difficult, because I'd like that" will never work, they would lose much more players than the gain of a few joining veteran players.
Not to mention, why would they do such a change, when those players still can tweak their difficulty in the current game?
And we're back at square one. If you don't like the difficulty of a game, it's up to you. You can complain about it, or you can just adjust your game. Call it "self challenge" or not, the option is yours.
I appreciate the outstanding dept of your post. Their are a natural solution to difficulty. I'll have to use three of several games for example, that seem to happen within the same frame of time:
- Vanilla World of Warcraft - Everquest 2 - Lord of the Rings online
What do all three have in common?....... "large full size games".
With large full size games the player has the full set of options.
I have details I can prove for each of all three. However common to all three the players after the starer zone were able to divide out to several choices complete with difficult sections, and freely allow player to pick their comfort level within.
This was done is such a natural way players would not even realize and expect mmorpgs for to have such choices......FREEDOM OF CHOICE.
This ranged from picking logs to keep the fire going to arias for a player to simply grab the player next to you to distract Merlocks away so one can activate a chest. Remember the dangerous Forest in Bree-land ?
This map had it all going on: Obviously this map is still active but content difficulty was removed. You know this was viable map for freedom of choice at one time.
All this was replaced with pathing story telling and linear game play.
I would love to use the example Guild Wars 2..... That was a large release BUT this was extremely liner every 5 levels all the way to end game. Every game since was developed in such the same way. As time past open-do-what-you-want faded away where no developer realizes this can be a solution..... It wouldn't matter anyway, developers now do as their told by cheap low cost games decided by management.
I could go on and on, I'll stop here....... But saying their WAS A SOLUTION !
I do remember those, especially Old Forest... I loved the old Old Forest.
The choice of freedom is still there, even moreso, might I add, today you can progress a lot more ways in LotRO than during the SoA era.
On general I agree, since we're debating the two sides of the same coin... the market has indeed changed in the last 15-20 years. For the worse, imo, that's why I mostly play "old" games.
You're mistaken though, there was no solution back then either (there were both the "too easy" just as the "too difficult" voices), but we were within the mass of the bell curve. The games were -more or less- set to our preferences. Well, not anymore...
(our preferences, minus the oddities. I sure as hell don't miss the corpse runs... LotRO's dread system at defeat was much better)
It could fill several threads how much the market has shifted, not just MMORPGs but the entire gaming market, over the years (I too used to babble a lot about it), but for this current topic it's irrelevant.
Let's just take it as a given, and dive in to the actual dilemma: what's next?
You say, they should go back to the era where the games were set to our preferences. Thing is, most of those players are gone. While not accurate data just my experiences, but I couldn't tell a single player I've played with back then, who is still a gamer. Sure, I know of a few who very rarely plays on console or on the phone... but none of them into MMORPGs anymore.
I don't like it either, but games just followed the shift within the overall playerbase.
The market won't turn back (if anything, it will get even worse for you, me, and other old-timer players), it will chase the lowest common denominator - which was a really nice thread earlier, btw.
I say let's try to get the most fun out of it, while I can. Until they won't completely wreck the game, I'll stay and have my share of fun.
If it means (in LotRO's case) I play 1-2 levels under the content, and without the quest GPS as Scorchien said too, so be it.
(ed. since what's the alternative? Stop playing and complain on forums, that's clearly less fun than playing )
Trying a new
approach someone suggested, keep it short and to the point.
Short version,
In studying Elders
Scrolls Online, I pumped myself up with so much energy to play it was amazing. Features, quality, graphics. Could
actually surpass World of Warcraft.
This is until I
watched Youtube footage. No damage
ever. People maximizing their characters
along with deep crafting……… all for what ?.... To gather 40 and kill them all
faster than just 30 ?
Trying a new
approach someone suggested, keep it short and to the point.
Short version,
In studying Elders
Scrolls Online, I pumped myself up with so much energy to play it was amazing. Features, quality, graphics. Could
actually surpass World of Warcraft.
This is until I
watched Youtube footage. No damage
ever. People maximizing their characters
along with deep crafting……… all for what ?.... To gather 40 and kill them all
faster than just 30 ?
No to pvp
Hay bcbully, I know you had always been big on PvP...... Have you played the free version of Warhammer Online that's been becoming popular...... If so how do you like it ?
It's not as easy as making a game more difficult. You first have to decide what will be difficult?
1. Time invested; 2. Group vs solo content; 3. Strategy and tactics; 4. Eye/Hand (Twitch); 5. Being a student of the game/knowing your class; 6. Social interaction/reputation; and 7. Elimination of convenience and having penalties for mistakes.
and so on.
And when you make some or all of those changes, what's left still has to be FUN for enough people to have a viable game.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
In general we can make a MMO as hard or as easy as we want....Want challenge? Go play in the level 20 zone when youre level 10...want it easy? Play in the level 10 zone when youre level 20. Gamers though tend to take the path of least resistance when it comes to playing a MMO.
In general we can make a MMO as hard or as easy as we want....Want challenge? Go play in the level 20 zone when youre level 10...want it easy? Play in the level 10 zone when youre level 20. Gamers though tend to take the path of least resistance when it comes to playing a MMO.
Considering the gap? No you can’t. Most mmos these days go from stream roll to getting steam rolled.
A game company needs to make a game for their market. They need to have a direct demographic and type of player they are looking to attract into their game, and then build with them in mind.
If the game comes across as too easy, then you need to embrace that it was not designed with your demographic in mind.
If the game comes across as too hard, then you need to embraces that it was not designed with your demographic in mind.
Not every game will fit you, and not every game should try. That kind of mindset destroys games.
A developer should have a market in mind, a specific kind of player demographic that their game will appeal to, and be the best game for them. This the game builds a community of like minded players.
But the problem happens because these game makers try to throw huge nets to get as many people as they can, and this they build an entire game that is filled with varying levels of suckage around one good aspect the player might like.
So they make a game that at best is 50% enjoyable, and 50% annoying, as opposed to seeking that demographic, and making a game that is on point for them, and if other players like some of it, great.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
A game company needs to make a game for their market. They need to have a direct demographic and type of player they are looking to attract into their game, and then build with them in mind.
If the game comes across as too easy, then you need to embrace that it was not designed with your demographic in mind.
If the game comes across as too hard, then you need to embraces that it was not designed with your demographic in mind.
Not every game will fit you, and not every game should try. That kind of mindset destroys games.
A developer should have a market in mind, a specific kind of player demographic that their game will appeal to, and be the best game for them. This the game builds a community of like minded players.
But the problem happens because these game makers try to throw huge nets to get as many people as they can, and this they build an entire game that is filled with varying levels of suckage around one good aspect the player might like.
So they make a game that at best is 50% enjoyable, and 50% annoying, as opposed to seeking that demographic, and making a game that is on point for them, and if other players like some of it, great.
I think you nailed it solid !
I have a huge gripe as this being true.
It's hard pressed to find an exception to "easy" new and nostalgia alike they all turned....... I swear I'm by far not alone.
I'm just the irritating guy says who repeats it over and over.
This is the new norm and here to stay..... I'm all about what is learned from Classic World of Warcraft, I pray lesions will be learned and changes be made back to mmorpg roots.
BUT sadly Blizzard will not realize the correlation for a challenge being the key.
The amount of people finishing sunwell plateau is like in the 0.1% in wow... So you can't really say mmorpg are easy.
All the mmorpg just start out easy, and gradually getting harder. If the beginning is hard people will just get stuck and can't progress any further. If the end is hard or optional, people can just go as far as they can.
I dont' think that many people level up their character just so they can quit at max level. So I dont' know why the OP keep talking about level1-60 content being too easy.
The amount of people finishing sunwell plateau is like in the 0.1% in wow... So you can't really say mmorpg are easy.
All the mmorpg just start out easy, and gradually getting harder. If the beginning is hard people will just get stuck and can't progress any further. If the end is hard or optional, people can just go as far as they can.
I dont' think that many people level up their character just so they can quit at max level. So I dont' know why the OP keep talking about level1-60 content being too easy.
!0 years on a Vanilla wow emulator... Believe me I know.
I always kinda thought of my MMO experience as a simple villager, and there was an ogre in a cave nearby that was causing all kinds of troubles,,,,no one of us was strong enough to kill it, so we had to band together....EQ was really about the only game that fit that thought process....Almsot all of the others I could kill the ogre by myself without batting an eye.
Well you are in luck.. if you decided to play DDO, get the Sub package that allows you to open any difficulty, and pick one that sounds hard, like Reaper 10, it will beat you, suprise buttasux you, chew you up and spit you back out.. and keep doing that till you realize it sucks.. ask for help, and realize that it will take you about 3 years of grinding, and 10 past lives to be ready to handle that level of content.
The come here and tell us all how much you loved that kind of difficulty.
I'll come here right now, And say the game seems VERY unbalanced. Most likely because you have to spend $$ in the cash shop and sub for what you say to open up the difficulty....... I don't think anyone should play this type of torcher for 3 years...... Sounds like it sucks all around DDO !
This is typical of F^%$ UP with mmorpgs !
I can't believe you wrote this as serious materiel
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Trying a new
approach someone suggested, keep it short and to the point.
Short version,
In studying Elders
Scrolls Online, I pumped myself up with so much energy to play it was amazing. Features, quality, graphics. Could
actually surpass World of Warcraft.
This is until I
watched Youtube footage. No damage
ever. People maximizing their characters
along with deep crafting……… all for what ?.... To gather 40 and kill them all
faster than just 30 ?
Really, REALLY
!!! Whats with that ?
Three possible
reasons I could think of:
- low amount of
content, get you to end game in 30 days, and lazy balance of creatures.
- 4 year old Johnny
can play too.
- Rush you to the
next paid expansion.
Same with GW2, FF14,
ESO, WoW and most all second generation games.
My Final point TURN
UP THE DIFFICULTY X10 and all these games became mmorpg's again (with
community). Other than balancing things,
all normal features seem to be in place automatically.
Short
Problem: I saw a youtube video where character X took no damage!
Solution: Don't play like character X if you want the game to be harder.
Short.
Your post lacks any context for the video. For all anyone knows, this could be a highly developed, highly geared player messing around with comparative fodder. It could be the fruition of an exceptionally powerful build taking on apt content.
Regardless, ESO has group content. Those wishing to participate in the most extreme of that are expected to bring particular builds noted for their power and perform well with them. If that's what you want, then go for it until you get there.
If you'd rather not take it to that extreme, you could instead play a lesser build and take on more difficult content than the game is inclined to hand out in offered missions. It is easy to seek out challenging encounters overland or in any of the many delves you can enter largely at your whim.
You can make ESO as hard as you want. If you are keen to do so with others, perhaps you can find some like-minded fellows, or form a guild devoted to such.
Lots of good advice here to increase "self challenge". Also some good advice to "seek other for a challenge".
BUT an mmorpg should have automatic challenge. It's like the play naked thing....It's not right or not natural for a game to be that way in a co-op setting.
It's not about tips and trick its about the over all persona of the game.
An mmorpg original Intent is to have a harsh environment for all. Where did I get this definition from ?...... It was an un spoken given, no one talks about it, it was that much of a given.
For the life of me, How can anyone care to be a healer, when healing is not needed. How can someone want to lead a party and take damage if no damage is dealt. Why craft if gear and stats mean zero. Why really want that power ability way down on the tree if it has no meaning ?
Why go off and test builds for best performance if the scale is so far off you ned to fight 40 mobs to give you an indicate of strength ?
Are people really playing simply for story and treasure?
Or is it the only choice by developer design ?
I'm mystified on how no one seems to care about challenge AT ALL... It's like no one here.
I'm mystified why you aren't off raiding Blackwing Lair in WOW Classic.
Oh yeah, that's right, you have to pay a sub for it, nevermind.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Trying a new
approach someone suggested, keep it short and to the point.
Short version,
In studying Elders
Scrolls Online, I pumped myself up with so much energy to play it was amazing. Features, quality, graphics. Could
actually surpass World of Warcraft.
This is until I
watched Youtube footage. No damage
ever. People maximizing their characters
along with deep crafting……… all for what ?.... To gather 40 and kill them all
faster than just 30 ?
Really, REALLY
!!! Whats with that ?
Three possible
reasons I could think of:
- low amount of
content, get you to end game in 30 days, and lazy balance of creatures.
- 4 year old Johnny
can play too.
- Rush you to the
next paid expansion.
Same with GW2, FF14,
ESO, WoW and most all second generation games.
My Final point TURN
UP THE DIFFICULTY X10 and all these games became mmorpg's again (with
community). Other than balancing things,
all normal features seem to be in place automatically.
Short
Problem: I saw a youtube video where character X took no damage!
Solution: Don't play like character X if you want the game to be harder.
Short.
Your post lacks any context for the video. For all anyone knows, this could be a highly developed, highly geared player messing around with comparative fodder. It could be the fruition of an exceptionally powerful build taking on apt content.
Regardless, ESO has group content. Those wishing to participate in the most extreme of that are expected to bring particular builds noted for their power and perform well with them. If that's what you want, then go for it until you get there.
If you'd rather not take it to that extreme, you could instead play a lesser build and take on more difficult content than the game is inclined to hand out in offered missions. It is easy to seek out challenging encounters overland or in any of the many delves you can enter largely at your whim.
You can make ESO as hard as you want. If you are keen to do so with others, perhaps you can find some like-minded fellows, or form a guild devoted to such.
Lots of good advice here to increase "self challenge". Also some good advice to "seek other for a challenge".
BUT an mmorpg should have automatic challenge. It's like the play naked thing....It's not right or not natural for a game to be that way in a co-op setting.
It's not about tips and trick its about the over all persona of the game.
An mmorpg original Intent is to have a harsh environment for all. Where did I get this definition from ?...... It was an un spoken given, no one talks about it, it was that much of a given.
For the life of me, How can anyone care to be a healer, when healing is not needed. How can someone want to lead a party and take damage if no damage is dealt. Why craft if gear and stats mean zero. Why really want that power ability way down on the tree if it has no meaning ?
Why go off and test builds for best performance if the scale is so far off you ned to fight 40 mobs to give you an indicate of strength ?
Are people really playing simply for story and treasure?
Or is it the only choice by developer design ?
I'm mystified on how no one seems to care about challenge AT ALL... It's like no one here.
I'm mystified why you aren't off raiding Blackwing Lair in WOW Classic.
Oh yeah, that's right, you have to pay a sub for it, nevermind.
See you still don't get the point....I'm still mystified no one understands, right here you talk as if I'm looking for hardcore maximum difficulty.
I take you as a sensible person, I always have. Yet the example of having to gather up 40 to take ANY DAMAGE is not a good enough example for you.
These games are zero damage, infact most all of them !
Black wing Lair in WoW classic has to be a dig..... At least I hope so, because your not stupid.
Zilart era FFXI did grouping and leveling right. You didn't have to group but it was more fun and efficient to do so. Do you want to spend 5 minutes killing one mob for experience solo or kill the same mob in 30 seconds in a group?
Of course the game and group mechanics have to make sense and work well with other players. That's why i thought the skillchain system was a great concept they should have expanded upon.
You had to use CC and lots of debuffs or the tank would get destroyed. You had to have 2 damage dealers using specific weapon skills in succession to create a specific effect which was followed by a mage bursting on that effect, causing massive damage.
I found that fun and interesting until later expansions where everything went to straight burst/burn nonsense. An early look at what the genre would become.
In the case of DDO, it appears players pay for more difficulty, which is all kinds of backwards in my way of thinking, but whatever.
No, they can opt to pay for the ability to unlock higher difficulties easier and earlier. The irony is funny on that one.
Here is how it works, in DDO they have difficulties of Easy, Normal, Hard, Elite, and Reaper (1 - 10)
Normal is the default in most cases, and everyone can open it.
Now, if you have a non-subscription account, you can open them in order of difficulty. This means, once you beat normal on a quest, you can chose to do it again, in a higher difficulty. IE: After you beat Normal, you can Open Hard, After you Beat Hard, you can Open Elite, Once you can open Reaper, you can just pick a number.
If you opt to subscribe to the game, like everyone cries they want a game that gives them a subscription.
One of the benefits is that you can open any difficulty on any character you have, without ever needing to have done a prior difficulty or earning past lives.
So you are not paying for more difficulty, you are paying for the convenience to be able to do a quest on a difficulty you might be woefully unprepared to handle.
With that explained.
DDO is very unique in the MMO market in that it sells most of its content, as opposed to giving content away for free and expecting people to buy frilly shit in their store to keep them afloat.
With that said, yes, the hardest, most brutalizing content you have to pay for one way or another, you can buy access outright or pay a sub, so yes, you are in fact buying difficulty in DDO, which is the way it should be.
What people want, is what sells. in a game like DDO, it has a population of players that thrive on the challenge, they live for the next raid, and look forward to content that will take them weeks to master, as such SSG keeps making and selling that kind of challenging content, because that is what their player base wants and that is what their player base will pay for.
To me, I could not think of a more moronic way to develop something like an MMO then selling frilly unrelated shit in a store and then trying to guess what my players want to play to keep them happy.
What DDO does is about as close to ideally perfect system as anyone could get, the content that sells is what they make more of, and that moves the direction of the game.
This is why, In DDO, unlike all these other games, when the players asked for more challenge and were willing to put their wallet where their mouth was, they got their more challenge, they got their Raids, and they got MORE Raids, and even MORE Raids, because they were and are still willing to pay for it.. that is in every way.. the perfect Dev/Player relationship.
And while DDO might never be the game for you, that's fine, they are not trying to be, they are trying to be the game for the players they have, not anyone else.
Again, the way things should be.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Comments
Collage should teach a coarse on the finer arts of not getting ripped off with DDO or LoTro and how to spend your money.
But hay, they have packages and deals now and then because there the good guys. Sounds like Stockholm syndrome where they lock you in a room for three years, then they treat you nice one day
I don't get how people beg and praise the almighty sub, and then lose their shit when they are asked to spend money to play a game.
but the way you told that story about finding difficulty made it sound like "pay me first" and the game will turn normal. Maybe the way you phrased it sounded funny
I've actually doing some study of DDO.....And a they seem to put the player in an awkward bind where you have to pay a sub to GET THE DIFFICULTY BOOST, AND ADVENTURE PACKAGES.
Yet must buy many F2P stuff too..... Most sub would allow the player to relax on spending if you sub, they seem to lean you to both.... I think this is one of the more unfair systems.
I con never take the "you can always play for free excuse"...... NO, I expect to pay, just make it fair.
That is the whole point of Challenge, to make you pay your dues at the start, to make you work, and struggle, so, with that said, you just called what you classify as Challenge, "Stockholm Syndrome", and then you wonder why games don't put it in?
I get your point, I want to RvR so I tried out ESO. Then I realize I need to grind a shit tone just so I can start RvR so I quit.
But really, after a mmorpg is out for a while. Everyone is maxed level. No one give a shit about level 1-60 content.
And the content at maxed level is at least marginal difficult.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
BUT an mmorpg should have automatic challenge. It's like the play naked thing....It's not right or not natural for a game to be that way in a co-op setting.
It's not about tips and trick its about the over all persona of the game.
An mmorpg original Intent is to have a harsh environment for all. Where did I get this definition from ?...... It was an un spoken given, no one talks about it, it was that much of a given.
For the life of me,
How can anyone care to be a healer, when healing is not needed. How can someone want to lead a party and take damage if no damage is dealt. Why craft if gear and stats mean zero. Why really want that power ability way down on the tree if it has no meaning ?
Why go off and test builds for best performance if the scale is so far off you ned to fight 40 mobs to give you an indicate of strength ?
Are people really playing simply for story and treasure?
Or is it the only choice by developer design ?
I'm mystified on how no one seems to care about challenge AT ALL... It's like no one here.
- Vanilla World of Warcraft
- Everquest 2
- Lord of the Rings online
What do all three have in common?....... "large full size games".
With large full size games the player has the full set of options.
I have details I can prove for each of all three. However common to all three the players after the starer zone were able to divide out to several choices complete with difficult sections, and freely allow player to pick their comfort level within.
This was done is such a natural way players would not even realize and expect mmorpgs for to have such choices......FREEDOM OF CHOICE.
This ranged from picking logs to keep the fire going to arias for a player to simply grab the player next to you to distract Merlocks away so one can activate a chest. Remember the dangerous Forest in Bree-land ?
This map had it all going on:
Obviously this map is still active but content difficulty was removed. You know this was viable map for freedom of choice at one time.
All this was replaced with pathing story telling and linear game play.
I would love to use the example Guild Wars 2..... That was a large release BUT this was extremely liner every 5 levels all the way to end game. Every game since was developed in such the same way. As time past open-do-what-you-want faded away where no developer realizes this can be a solution..... It wouldn't matter anyway, developers now do as their told by cheap low cost games decided by management.
I could go on and on, I'll stop here....... But saying their WAS A SOLUTION !
I know you had always been big on PvP...... Have you played the free version of Warhammer Online that's been becoming popular...... If so how do you like it ?
1. Time invested;
2. Group vs solo content;
3. Strategy and tactics;
4. Eye/Hand (Twitch);
5. Being a student of the game/knowing your class;
6. Social interaction/reputation; and
7. Elimination of convenience and having penalties for mistakes.
and so on.
And when you make some or all of those changes, what's left still has to be FUN for enough people to have a viable game.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
A game company needs to make a game for their market. They need to have a direct demographic and type of player they are looking to attract into their game, and then build with them in mind.
If the game comes across as too easy, then you need to embrace that it was not designed with your demographic in mind.
If the game comes across as too hard, then you need to embraces that it was not designed with your demographic in mind.
Not every game will fit you, and not every game should try. That kind of mindset destroys games.
A developer should have a market in mind, a specific kind of player demographic that their game will appeal to, and be the best game for them. This the game builds a community of like minded players.
But the problem happens because these game makers try to throw huge nets to get as many people as they can, and this they build an entire game that is filled with varying levels of suckage around one good aspect the player might like.
So they make a game that at best is 50% enjoyable, and 50% annoying, as opposed to seeking that demographic, and making a game that is on point for them, and if other players like some of it, great.
I have a huge gripe as this being true.
It's hard pressed to find an exception to "easy" new and nostalgia alike they all turned....... I swear I'm by far not alone.
I'm just the irritating guy says who repeats it over and over.
This is the new norm and here to stay.....
I'm all about what is learned from Classic World of Warcraft, I pray lesions will be learned and changes be made back to mmorpg roots.
BUT sadly Blizzard will not realize the correlation for a challenge being the key.
All the mmorpg just start out easy, and gradually getting harder. If the beginning is hard people will just get stuck and can't progress any further. If the end is hard or optional, people can just go as far as they can.
I dont' think that many people level up their character just so they can quit at max level. So I dont' know why the OP keep talking about level1-60 content being too easy.
Oh, not about @Ungood 's post.
Paying money for games is not inherently an evil thing and has no relationship to the discussion around difficulty unless it is used to circumvent it.
In the case of DDO, it appears players pay for more difficulty, which is all kinds of backwards in my way of thinking, but whatever.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Oh yeah, that's right, you have to pay a sub for it, nevermind.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I take you as a sensible person, I always have. Yet the example of having to gather up 40 to take ANY DAMAGE is not a good enough example for you.
These games are zero damage, infact most all of them !
Black wing Lair in WoW classic has to be a dig..... At least I hope so, because your not stupid.
Of course the game and group mechanics have to make sense and work well with other players. That's why i thought the skillchain system was a great concept they should have expanded upon.
You had to use CC and lots of debuffs or the tank would get destroyed. You had to have 2 damage dealers using specific weapon skills in succession to create a specific effect which was followed by a mage bursting on that effect, causing massive damage.
I found that fun and interesting until later expansions where everything went to straight burst/burn nonsense. An early look at what the genre would become.
Here is how it works, in DDO they have difficulties of Easy, Normal, Hard, Elite, and Reaper (1 - 10)
Normal is the default in most cases, and everyone can open it.
Now, if you have a non-subscription account, you can open them in order of difficulty. This means, once you beat normal on a quest, you can chose to do it again, in a higher difficulty. IE: After you beat Normal, you can Open Hard, After you Beat Hard, you can Open Elite, Once you can open Reaper, you can just pick a number.
If you opt to subscribe to the game, like everyone cries they want a game that gives them a subscription.
One of the benefits is that you can open any difficulty on any character you have, without ever needing to have done a prior difficulty or earning past lives.
So you are not paying for more difficulty, you are paying for the convenience to be able to do a quest on a difficulty you might be woefully unprepared to handle.
With that explained.
DDO is very unique in the MMO market in that it sells most of its content, as opposed to giving content away for free and expecting people to buy frilly shit in their store to keep them afloat.
With that said, yes, the hardest, most brutalizing content you have to pay for one way or another, you can buy access outright or pay a sub, so yes, you are in fact buying difficulty in DDO, which is the way it should be.
What people want, is what sells. in a game like DDO, it has a population of players that thrive on the challenge, they live for the next raid, and look forward to content that will take them weeks to master, as such SSG keeps making and selling that kind of challenging content, because that is what their player base wants and that is what their player base will pay for.
To me, I could not think of a more moronic way to develop something like an MMO then selling frilly unrelated shit in a store and then trying to guess what my players want to play to keep them happy.
What DDO does is about as close to ideally perfect system as anyone could get, the content that sells is what they make more of, and that moves the direction of the game.
This is why, In DDO, unlike all these other games, when the players asked for more challenge and were willing to put their wallet where their mouth was, they got their more challenge, they got their Raids, and they got MORE Raids, and even MORE Raids, because they were and are still willing to pay for it.. that is in every way.. the perfect Dev/Player relationship.
And while DDO might never be the game for you, that's fine, they are not trying to be, they are trying to be the game for the players they have, not anyone else.
Again, the way things should be.