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Turn up difficulty on most, BINGO we have our mmorpg back.

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  • iixviiiixiixviiiix Member RarePosts: 2,131
    the most difficulty in MMORPG is you have to fight your way pass thousands of player to get the things you want .
    So to make a difficult MMORPG , you just need to remove instance rewards to make sure thousands , millions players bite each other .

    Remember , in MMORPG , mob don't beat you , player do .
    Amaranthar
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 1,897
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    I rarely grouped in EQ and it was much tougher than modern games. I don’t consider that to be “forced grouping”, but I’m curious, how do you create a grouping experience that never needs to happen, but most people do because it’s just more “fun”?

    When me and my online friends tried neverwinter it took a couple minutes to realize that we woukdn’t need each other at all and we dropped the game like a rock. 
    Allow me to introduce you to a game called Dungeons and Dragons Online.

    90% of the game can be soloed, I wager at this point, maybe 95% of the game, given some raids can also be soloed.

    Groups allow you to harder difficulties, they gave you more hands in the chest to get rare drop loot, and they make the quest go faster and easier in most cases.

    Not needed, but adventegious. 
    Yeah but you’re going from mmorpg into MO-D&D which is perfectly fine and it’s a great game, but it’s not the same thing. Being able to choose your difficulty rather than overcome is not what I expect in my mmorpg.

    DDO, much like P&P, is something I can log into casually or get together with friends, but when I play an MMORPG it’s a completely different expectation. 
    Have you played DDO?

    You can go as HCMF as you like in that game.. really.
    It’s still a setting, a mode, a choice. Contrived. 
    Amaranthar
    "Wake up, It's RNG, there is no such thing as 'rare'"
    - Ungood
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,223
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    I rarely grouped in EQ and it was much tougher than modern games. I don’t consider that to be “forced grouping”, but I’m curious, how do you create a grouping experience that never needs to happen, but most people do because it’s just more “fun”?

    When me and my online friends tried neverwinter it took a couple minutes to realize that we woukdn’t need each other at all and we dropped the game like a rock. 
    Allow me to introduce you to a game called Dungeons and Dragons Online.

    90% of the game can be soloed, I wager at this point, maybe 95% of the game, given some raids can also be soloed.

    Groups allow you to harder difficulties, they gave you more hands in the chest to get rare drop loot, and they make the quest go faster and easier in most cases.

    Not needed, but adventegious. 
    Yeah but you’re going from mmorpg into MO-D&D which is perfectly fine and it’s a great game, but it’s not the same thing. Being able to choose your difficulty rather than overcome is not what I expect in my mmorpg.

    DDO, much like P&P, is something I can log into casually or get together with friends, but when I play an MMORPG it’s a completely different expectation. 
    Have you played DDO?

    You can go as HCMF as you like in that game.. really.
    It’s still a setting, a mode, a choice. Contrived. 
    Not exactly.

    I learned that one the hard way.. just because two games check off the same boxes does not mean they are remotely fucking alike.
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • NarugNarug Member UncommonPosts: 755
    edited March 27
    I'm confused.  Anybody find out what he's talking about yet?  Looks like you guys did.

    A - Take longer to kill MOB (MOB sponge)? zzzzzzzz....(Does longer equal harder...stop thinking dirty)

    B - Tactics like Amaranthar said (Has to be random can't be just avoid circle of fire MOBs know your resistances exploit your weakest weak in fire they attack with fire, know your two handed attack with a fast weapon short sword/daggers/bow etc but every single MOB or just some & is this really enjoyable)?

    C - Only way to stop the cheat sites I see is to make your maps or dungeons/instances random, is that designable though?  Maybe the dungeons/instances could be.

    No matter how, if you stop the cheat sites cooperation is encouraged & players might feel more of a necessity to group therefore grouping might feel more natural again.

    D - I like what Iselin, Ungood, and Po_gg have eluded to.  Give players the freedom.

    I'd like to see player content tools, I still think that could play a part, but folks like Cryptic said no to programs like foundries.
    Post edited by Narug on

    AC2 Player RIP Final Death Jan 31st 2017

    Refugee of Auberean

    Refugee of Dereth

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,223
    Narug said:
    I'm confused.  Anybody find out what he's talking about yet?  Looks like you guys did.

    A - Take longer to kill MOB (MOB sponge)? zzzzzzzz....(Does longer equal harder...stop thinking dirty)

    B - Tactics like Amaranthar said (Has to be random can't be just avoid circle of fire MOBs know your resistances exploit your weakest weak in fire they attack with fire, know your two handed attack with a fast weapon short sword/daggers/bow etc but every single MOB or just some & is this really enjoyable)?

    C - Only way to stop the cheat sites I see is to make your maps or dungeons/instances random, is that designable though?  Maybe the dungeons/instances could be.

    No matter how, if you stop the cheat sites cooperation is encouraged & players might feel more of a necessity to group therefore grouping might feel more natural again.

    D - I like what Iselin, Ungood, and Po_gg have eluded to.  Give players the freedom.

    I'd like to see player content tools, I still think that could play a part, but folks like Cryptic said no to programs like foundries.
    Not sure what you mean by "Cheat sites" like hack programs?
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • NarugNarug Member UncommonPosts: 755
    Ungood said:

    Not sure what you mean by "Cheat sites" like hack programs?
    I guess it could be that too but nah I mean guides.
    UngoodAmaranthar

    AC2 Player RIP Final Death Jan 31st 2017

    Refugee of Auberean

    Refugee of Dereth

  • xD_GamingxD_Gaming Member EpicPosts: 2,678
    edited March 27

    Trying a new approach someone suggested, keep it short and to the point.

    Short version,

    In studying Elders Scrolls Online, I pumped myself up with so much energy to play it was amazing.  Features, quality, graphics.  Could actually surpass World of Warcraft. 

    This is until I watched Youtube footage.  No damage ever.  People maximizing their characters along with deep crafting……… all for what ?.... To gather 40 and kill them all faster than just 30 ? 

    Really, REALLY !!!   Whats with that ? 


    Three possible reasons I could think of:

    - low amount of content, get you to end game in 30 days, and lazy balance of creatures.

    - 4 year old Johnny can play too.

    - Rush you to the next paid expansion. 

    Same with GW2, FF14, ESO, WoW and most all second generation games. 


    My Final point TURN UP THE DIFFICULTY  X10 and all these games became mmorpg's again (with community).  Other than balancing things, all normal features seem to be in place automatically.  

    Short :)


    I would have to say, no. The killer of mmorpg is sadly the communities they generate. Some mmorpgs would be active to this day if it had actual community partnership in terms of looking at the why a communitity is failing in the first place. 

    1. Overly endorsing extreme competition for unrealstic achievable components. Like allowing people to grind out pvp gear when the game is at its prime, and then not changing those mechanics when the population is too low for that gear to be achievable.

    2. poor community management. People who do not take pride in there job and just let a communitity become a toxic waste dump. 

    3. When things become "too difficult" it becomes a hack fest or cheater fest, pitted with bad communitity managment iis a cocktail of disaster  


    Narug
    There is a multiverse inside our minds which millions live.
    Twitter : @xD_Gaming_Merch
    xD Merch : https://bit.ly/2v13MT8
    "Dragons are tilly folly !"
  • HyperpsycrowHyperpsycrow Member UncommonPosts: 689
    But what about 4 yo johhny !!  Think on the children :p hahaha
    delete5230Amaranthar




  • NorseGodNorseGod Member EpicPosts: 2,634
    I remember this topic back when the WOW kiddies hijacked our genre. We tried to warn ya.
    Amaranthar
    To talk about games without the censorship, check out https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 7,673
    Scot said:
    The entire gaming industry is headed the opposite way; easy, easier and easiest. I think this started around twenty years ago, but the pace for different genres varies. The top shooters hold out, but even they are not immune to this theme of ever easier game design.

    More difficulty in MMOs in the right areas would be a big help to stopping MMOs being a yawn fest as XP is like taking candy from a baby. The other side of this is solo play, everything must be soloable and that makes it a walk over for the few players who still group. Yawn...we need something to put a boot up players arses and put an element of danger into gameplay.

    WoW was the first easy MMO I remember and it came out in late 2004....SO 16 years ago 20 is close enough.
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 1,897
    NorseGod said:
    I remember this topic back when the WOW kiddies hijacked our genre. We tried to warn ya.
    I still cry over what wow did to us. 
    NorseGoddelete5230Amaranthar
    "Wake up, It's RNG, there is no such thing as 'rare'"
    - Ungood
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,512
    NorseGod said:
    I remember this topic back when the WOW kiddies hijacked our genre. We tried to warn ya.
    Here's the thing,

    10 years ago I played with many younger kids in several voice Guilds in several games. Honestly they would be singing songs on voice and acting childish (guessing 8-10 Year olds)...... Often irritating. 

    But oddly, when doing dungeons MANY OF THEM WERE QUITE GOOD AND DO WHAT WAS ASKED OF THEM !!! I really don't think Johnny was ever the reason for nurfing games.  
    Ungood
  • BruceYeeBruceYee Member EpicPosts: 1,951
    For me it wasn't about difficulty it was about the desire to play a game because of what it had to offer. If you were motivated enough by the "complete" package the game had to offer you would do everything you needed to progress further. If grouping was a part of that progression and devoting 8 hours a day to get as far as possible then so be it.
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,512
    BruceYee said:
    For me it wasn't about difficulty it was about the desire to play a game because of what it had to offer. If you were motivated enough by the "complete" package the game had to offer you would do everything you needed to progress further. If grouping was a part of that progression and devoting 8 hours a day to get as far as possible then so be it.
    Your right.....as stated in my OP, I study ESO all day.  I loved all its features, but ignoring whats VERY IMPORTANT.  

    The goal !!!
    You need a reason to progress, get better gear, abilities, I reason to craft,.....If you not advancing for survival....... in my mind, it's a worthless point.

    I don't want the potential to kill 40 instead of 30.... really think of how bad that really is for a goal ?



    Their used to be a popular internet test (like a joke test).  it gave a calculator to punch your health age and size...... and it would tell how many kindergarten students you can kill..... I know politically incorrect.  But their is a point to this. 
    mmolou
  • Morgenes83Morgenes83 Member UncommonPosts: 198
    Imho the issue with this is the following.

    Making "non trinity" games harder is often very frustating as this leads to death on the slightest mistake.

    Making "trinity" games harder leads to people whining about not finding enough or any tanks/healers at all.

    I have no issue with this as I prefer tank/healer over DD as long as they are interesting class mechanic wise but I can remember pretty well why we ended at this jack of all trades gameplay we have nowadays.

    It was us, the community forcing the studios to create easier content, to make "every" content being doable even by someone not able to properly handle a mouse and refusing to at least train a bit to clear harder content.

    1997 Meridian 59 'til 2019 ESO 

    Waiting for Camelot Unchained & Pantheon

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,205
    What do u mean by turning up the difficulty? Just literally making it so that grouping is required?


    I would also point out that grouping teaches us teamwork, grouping does not make a game more social.

    Social requires downtime.


    Finally, turning up the difficulty only helps make a game more enjoyable if the players have sufficient tools to overcome that difficulty. Simply adding more players won't change the experience for the better if the players are still using the same tools they already have.

    If you want to make grouping more enjoyable and more engaging, you need to get away from the modern shallow combat mechanics. Like someone said above, LotROs fellowship manuvers were a unique grouping mechanic that made it much more interesting, but fellowship manuvers were built on top of already great inter-class dependencies. My captain (buffer), for example, had about half of her skills restricted to group usage, so group content was the only place that it truly came alive and I could play the class to it's fullest.

    Once you've made group content more engaging than solo play, then you can start messing around with the difficulty. Just make sure you add plenty of downtime so that social bonds can form at the same time as learning teamwork.
    I agree, with some exception. 

    I think it's important to consider that it's not just "down time", you really need a purpose that includes player interactions. (I suspect this is what you mean.) 
    There are loads of things that can be done there. 
    - Mages opening gates to a bank for resupplies.
    - Healers that can mend broken bones and sprained ankles and the like (timers that aren't workable in combat). Think "Critical Hits" here. 
    - Thieves to pick locks on chests, trap detection and removal, hidden compartments and secret rooms, etc. 
    - Cooking up a pot of fresh brewed "coffee." 
    - Trading loot that can be used "now." 
    --- I mean, there's really a lot that can be included here. 

    I didn't play LoTRO so I don't know what you are talking about here.
    But I'm generally against too heavy of a system for interdependence. 
    I do see where this can be a boon, though. I'm thinking in terms of special attacks, where one players performs one, which sets up another player to do a different Special for great effect. That requires some predetermined teamwork, forming a buddy system, that I think would be marvelous. 

    Another insightful post by you, sir or madam, as the case may be. 

    Once upon a time....

  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,512
    Imho the issue with this is the following.

    Making "non trinity" games harder is often very frustating as this leads to death on the slightest mistake.

    Making "trinity" games harder leads to people whining about not finding enough or any tanks/healers at all.

    I have no issue with this as I prefer tank/healer over DD as long as they are interesting class mechanic wise but I can remember pretty well why we ended at this jack of all trades gameplay we have nowadays.

    It was us, the community forcing the studios to create easier content, to make "every" content being doable even by someone not able to properly handle a mouse and refusing to at least train a bit to clear harder content.
    But zero damage.... think about that zero. 

    Rounding up an entire zone and still zero damage..... Theirs far more in motivation that upset players.



    VERY IMPORTANT:
    Great point, were all aware of the situation you speak of.  HOWEVER FRUSTRATING, it was widely excepted odd as it was..... Millions strong anyway !


    It was no different than waking up in the morning and having to actually move as oppose to staying in bed all day.... it's life struggle.... it's a complaint, that whasent a real complaint is the best way I could describe it. 
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,205
    Scot said:
    The entire gaming industry is headed the opposite way; easy, easier and easiest. I think this started around twenty years ago, but the pace for different genres varies. The top shooters hold out, but even they are not immune to this theme of ever easier game design.

    More difficulty in MMOs in the right areas would be a big help to stopping MMOs being a yawn fest as XP is like taking candy from a baby. The other side of this is solo play, everything must be soloable and that makes it a walk over for the few players who still group. Yawn...we need something to put a boot up players arses and put an element of danger into gameplay.

    WoW was the first easy MMO I remember and it came out in late 2004....SO 16 years ago 20 is close enough.
    WoW took EQ's formula and "fixed" the problems. That's what made it easy, but in some cases better (yet worse at the same time). 

    EQ had long waiting lines to get into specific dungeons to get specific items that were needed at the next levels. 
    WoW fixed that with Instances.
    That was a cheap way out. Those needed items should have been random spawns on a variety of MOBs that fit the criteria for that item, in a variety of places. Moreover, that one item should have been a variety of items (I don't know that there weren't in EQ, just commenting). 
    I don't even like the idea of gear taken to this extent, where there are items of such need. It's too contrived. 

    "Fixing" corpse runs was about the most harmful thing WoW did. Players never lost anything. There was no need for any of the strategies to avoid loss, which relied almost entirely on player interaction. The beginning of the lost social aspects of MMORPGs. 
    Especially coupled with all the other things like "LFG" and public Auction Houses. Everything done for "easier" game play hurt the socialness of MMORPGs. 

    WoW did do a lot of things right. But that basic game design of Level+Loot Grinding was just bad for a "Massively-MORPG", that fits for SP/MP games. EQ was equally guilty of this. 
    D&D was a MP RPG, not a MMP RPG. Those are entirely different things. 
    Theocritus

    Once upon a time....

  • iixviiiixiixviiiix Member RarePosts: 2,131
    ^ talk about mob and drop , it kind of funny that after 20 years of MMORPG , mob still being a object for killing instead of  a obstruct to stop player

    if you make mob too strong and player can't kill it then everything become a mess lol .
    The designer need to get over of the old headhunt to get things done IMO

    Instance is a lazy way to fix the massively problem . Instead of make sure everyone can get the reward , just give everyone change to get the reward .

    Amaranthar
  • GrimulaGrimula Member UncommonPosts: 644
    i always loved seeing a Raid full of people all Naked because we died to a boss and were waiting to get corpses back  =)   GOOOD TIMES   and it was very scarey sometimes trying to get that 1 last corpse back way in the corner Behind boss hahahah

    If you never experienced this you wouldnt Understand i know
    Amaranthar
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,205
    edited March 28
    Grimula said:
    i always loved seeing a Raid full of people all Naked because we died to a boss and were waiting to get corpses back  =)   GOOOD TIMES   and it was very scarey sometimes trying to get that 1 last corpse back way in the corner Behind boss hahahah

    If you never experienced this you wouldnt Understand i know
    In UO, you not only tried to get to your corpse in that Dungeon room, but you had to beat both Player looters AND THE MOBS (which would loot you too) to your goodies. LOL

    You could get resed (from a player or a wandering NPC Healer), but all you had on you was a death robe. 

    I made friends through this. Players helping other players get to their corpses and belongings was a big thing. 

    This goes to the issue of Player Trust. 
    (Something sorely lacking and harmful to social interaction.) 

    When players learn who is helpful to strangers, 
    (and run into them again. which doesn't happen nearly as much in Themepark games due to Power Gaps)
    they can build friendships and Trust relationships.

    Guilds were built this way. 

    This is why I posted not too long ago about Player Cities. It's the same thing as Guilds, but bigger, and broken down into smaller subsections like we now know as Guilds. Players can see who's who and build a wide scope of relationships built on Trust. 
    delete5230iixviiiixGabriel-Knight

    Once upon a time....

  • Po_ggPo_gg Member EpicPosts: 5,214
    I didn't play LoTRO so I don't know what you are talking about here.
    But I'm generally against too heavy of a system for interdependence. 
    I do see where this can be a boon, though. I'm thinking in terms of special attacks, where one players performs one, which sets up another player to do a different Special for great effect. That requires some predetermined teamwork, forming a buddy system, that I think would be marvelous. 
    It ain't a "too heavy" interdependence, only what you've described too :)
    Minstrels have that very same skill, on solo play it's nearly useless, but in a fellowship it boosts the "staple" skill of the other players, like guardians get a block, hunters focus, champ/captain the enemy defeat trigger, etc., so they can use their conditional skills.


    FM is similar to the follow-up attack idea too. Players one by one pick a type of move, and their picks form a pattern, which "builds up" into the maneuver, be it simply a huge damage, or a party-wide heal, etc. 
    It's a mechanic requires predetermined teamwork, and coordination, since every pattern has a different outcome. It doesn't mean you can "fail" an FM, it's always useful, even with random or missed picks.
    But when the fellowship is good with tactics, can coordinate and cooperate, it can make the battle so much smoother.
    (FM has an extensive wiki page and an own tab in the game too. Pretty large system, unfortunately the power creep and the level cap increases took the wind from its sail, somewhat.)


    As for the list, some things are there as well. Cooks provided class-specific boosts (sadly many of those were removed, but they still can make better strings for the minstrel instruments), burglars can pick pockets, in a few dungeons they can operate mechanics...

    Actually Neverwinter (and DDO) used that idea much better, at least at start. Later it was toned down, and Mod 16 made it almost fully insignificant. But at launch the trap detection and disarming was a really useful feature of thieves, helped the party a lot.

    cameltosisNarug
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,512
    Po_gg said:
    I didn't play LoTRO so I don't know what you are talking about here.
    But I'm generally against too heavy of a system for interdependence. 
    I do see where this can be a boon, though. I'm thinking in terms of special attacks, where one players performs one, which sets up another player to do a different Special for great effect. That requires some predetermined teamwork, forming a buddy system, that I think would be marvelous. 
    It ain't a "too heavy" interdependence, only what you've described too :)
    Minstrels have that very same skill, on solo play it's nearly useless, but in a fellowship it boosts the "staple" skill of the other players, like guardians get a block, hunters focus, champ/captain the enemy defeat trigger, etc., so they can use their conditional skills.


    FM is similar to the follow-up attack idea too. Players one by one pick a type of move, and their picks form a pattern, which "builds up" into the maneuver, be it simply a huge damage, or a party-wide heal, etc. 
    It's a mechanic requires predetermined teamwork, and coordination, since every pattern has a different outcome. It doesn't mean you can "fail" an FM, it's always useful, even with random or missed picks.
    But when the fellowship is good with tactics, can coordinate and cooperate, it can make the battle so much smoother.
    (FM has an extensive wiki page and an own tab in the game too. Pretty large system, unfortunately the power creep and the level cap increases took the wind from its sail, somewhat.)


    As for the list, some things are there as well. Cooks provided class-specific boosts (sadly many of those were removed, but they still can make better strings for the minstrel instruments), burglars can pick pockets, in a few dungeons they can operate mechanics...

    Actually Neverwinter (and DDO) used that idea much better, at least at start. Later it was toned down, and Mod 16 made it almost fully insignificant. But at launch the trap detection and disarming was a really useful feature of thieves, helped the party a lot.

    My good friend and I played LoTRO about two years back, 

    "The combat was dumb down it was a JOKE more than any other" 

    I played two weeks he tried for two and he admitted it sucked especially when we grouped it was apparent.

    This game reeks of simple. 

    It's worst case don't let anyone tell you diffident !...... What a bad OP Topic to promote this game !
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 7,371
     Ive been playing LOTRO for 14 years now and have always played the same way , as it increases the Immersion/difficulty/challenge /exploration


       Turn Off Names

       Turn Off Mobs on Mini Map (red dots)

       Turn Off Quest Tracking ...

       Rarely use Mount

        Much better experience and game imo
    ScotNarugTheocritusPo_gg
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,512
    Scorchien said:
     Ive been playing LOTRO for 14 years now and have always played the same way , as it increases the Immersion/difficulty/challenge /exploration


       Turn Off Names

       Turn Off Mobs on Mini Map (red dots)

       Turn Off Quest Tracking ...

       Rarely use Mount

        Much better experience and game imo
    Modern games such as ESO FF14, World of Warcraft and so on have much more quality content and AT A MUCH MORE FAIR CASH SHOP PRICE then the old remakes.  Their actually  fair. 

    The entire reason of this post is how the only problem is easy difficulty.

    Lotro is not fitting for this topic in anyway.  Like it or not its dated content with 10 year old price manipulation that is not used in modern games. 

    For me to make this statement in amazing because of my hatred for F2P manipulation. 

    Modern games are actually better all around. 

    I changing my attitude !...F2P is becoming better but LOTRO are never doing anyone any favors.

    Liking the game for nostalgia reasons are one thing but not here !
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