I don't think they are mutually exclusive. There could still be reasons to gate content when using lvl scaling. With story content for example. This could be done for whole zones. Part of the horizontal progression could be unlocking new zones through story etc. It all depends on how you want to do character progression in a game.
As for lvl scaling, imo lvl scaling (player to mobs or mobs to player) makes the game world more believable. Otherwise you get these weird power gaps when you go back to old content. Like in oldschool MMO's. Where the same npc's still mention being harassed by a band of thieves with a very dangerous boss, but this boss can now be one shotted now that you are 20 levels higher. It is ridiculous. Lvl scaling when done right, makes this power gap smaller.
I also think lvl scaling is important to keep all zones in a game relevant. If a game is developed with this in mind and uses lvl scaling, you can create reasons for max progressed players to visit to all zones. Making all of the game more populated and not just 'endgame' zones. This can also add replayability.
If a game has scaling, then why have levels, why have gear you can obtain, why have better weapons, why get better skills. They are all meaningless in a game where you scale down to lowest level. Why have progression at all in a scaling mmo. And why have an rpg.
Lvl scaling in specific things to maintain difficulty I can see, and most mmos have had them throughout their history. But they should be the exception not the basis for game design.
In any mmo or any rpg it should be about progression. Progression of yourself, your group, and your guild. Your time should be rewarded in your character getting stronger over time, unlocking new abilities, and getting new gear. Without this aspect the mmorpg is well not a mmorpg. It is something different entirely.
Also I am a fan of things being locked and having to be unlocked. Discovering a difficult to reach area, finding rare spells and powerful weapons, unlocking a new zone through a long quest line. These are all good things in my eyes. As a new player I SHOULD NOT be able to wonder anywhere I want safely. If I stray from the starter zone I SHOULD be slaughtered.
I can see solo oriented ppl wanting scaling... but then again I am in the camp of why play a mmo then. Since mmos at their core are all about community and grouping, they sorta really suck as solo player games when comparing them to good offline titles. To each their own though, scaling or lack of progression is a game breaking mmo mechanic for me so I tend to avoid playing those mmos like the plague.
This is the main reason I dislike ESO and why I prefer the more "Grindy" mmos I guess.
I think GW2 does it spot on. Scales you down in lower level areas and then if many people are around scales the bosses up. THis way it feels like a fight and not just one shot.
Preferably no scaling.
Scaling destroys the sense of progression. Feels like there's no point of doing this specific thing I'm doing in this specific area.
Preferably no scaling.
Scaling destroys the sense of progression. Feels like there's no point of doing this specific thing I'm doing in this specific area.
Well in GW2, you progess through certain areas. If you want map completion you have to go to those other lowbie maps. Do you want to one shot everything?
You do get other harder areas. Some are nigh impossible w/o others and some are not.
I don't think it deters that at all. I think it makes sense.
Preferably no scaling.
Scaling destroys the sense of progression. Feels like there's no point of doing this specific thing I'm doing in this specific area.
Well in GW2, you progess through certain areas. If you want map completion you have to go to those other lowbie maps. Do you want to one shot everything?
You do get other harder areas. Some are nigh impossible w/o others and some are not.
I don't think it deters that at all. I think it makes sense.
Preferably no scaling.
Scaling destroys the sense of progression. Feels like there's no point of doing this specific thing I'm doing in this specific area.
Well in GW2, you progess through certain areas. If you want map completion you have to go to those other lowbie maps. Do you want to one shot everything?
You do get other harder areas. Some are nigh impossible w/o others and some are not.
I don't think it deters that at all. I think it makes sense.
Your opinion is wrong.
It is my opinion TYVM. For me it is right, for you maybe wrong. Don't like scaling, don't play games with it. It is that simple. There is no right and wrong answer here.
Preferably no scaling.
Scaling destroys the sense of progression. Feels like there's no point of doing this specific thing I'm doing in this specific area.
Well in GW2, you progess through certain areas. If you want map completion you have to go to those other lowbie maps. Do you want to one shot everything?
You do get other harder areas. Some are nigh impossible w/o others and some are not.
I don't think it deters that at all. I think it makes sense.
Your opinion is wrong.
It is my opinion TYVM. For me it is right, for you maybe wrong. Don't like scaling, don't play games with it. It is that simple. There is no right and wrong answer here.
I see a lot of people confusing levels with progression which is fair enough I guess because RPGs and MMORPGs have done progression that way forever.
Thing is that you can totally get rid of levels and still have meaningful progression as well as mobs and places where you'll get beat to a pulp if you go there before you've progressed enough.
Level numbers are just a handy dandy way of giving a rough estimate of power - more so in some games than others. But it isn't the only way to gain power, just the traditional way to do it.
I actually find it more immersive and more difficult if I don't know ahead of the fight whether I'm up to it or not. Having your level number and their level numbers floating over their heads or just roughly known because you're now in zone Y and not X just makes it easier.
If you take level = power out of the equation the whole "scaling" debate becomes irrelevant.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I see a lot of people confusing levels with progression which is fair enough I guess because RPGs and MMORPGs have done progression that way forever.
Thing is that you can totally get rid of levels and still have meaningful progression as well as mobs and places where you'll get beat to a pulp if you go there before you've progressed enough.
Level numbers are just a handy dandy way of giving a rough estimate of power - more so in some games than others. But it isn't the only way to gain power, just the traditional way to do it.
I actually find it more immersive and more difficult if I don't know ahead of the fight whether I'm up to it or not. Having your level number and their level numbers floating over their heads or just roughly known because you're now in zone Y and not X just makes it easier.
If you take level = power out of the equation the whole "scaling" debate becomes irrelevant.
It’s not irrelevant because of what scaling does. Simplifying it a bit because all games that scale do it a bit differently, but the concept is roughly the same. It doesn’t matter how powerful your character becomes if the enemies scale with you. (Power, not level)
Either semi scale (some mobs still need more horizontal progression, or better gear, but could be done from start by a good player) Or mix levels in zones.
Having a defined path is always worse imho and mostly makes zones obsolete as soon as the starting crowd is through. I also hate it when areas are worthless for me, especially when I like the areas style.
Preferably no scaling.
Scaling destroys the sense of progression. Feels like there's no point of doing this specific thing I'm doing in this specific area.
Well in GW2, you progess through certain areas. If you want map completion you have to go to those other lowbie maps. Do you want to one shot everything?
You do get other harder areas. Some are nigh impossible w/o others and some are not.
I don't think it deters that at all. I think it makes sense.
I fully agree with this.
Down Scaling keeps the zones viable.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I see a lot of people confusing levels with progression which is fair enough I guess because RPGs and MMORPGs have done progression that way forever.
Thing is that you can totally get rid of levels and still have meaningful progression as well as mobs and places where you'll get beat to a pulp if you go there before you've progressed enough.
Level numbers are just a handy dandy way of giving a rough estimate of power - more so in some games than others. But it isn't the only way to gain power, just the traditional way to do it.
I actually find it more immersive and more difficult if I don't know ahead of the fight whether I'm up to it or not. Having your level number and their level numbers floating over their heads or just roughly known because you're now in zone Y and not X just makes it easier.
If you take level = power out of the equation the whole "scaling" debate becomes irrelevant.
It’s not irrelevant because of what scaling does. Simplifying it a bit because all games that scale do it a bit differently, but the concept is roughly the same. It doesn’t matter how powerful your character becomes if the enemies scale with you. (Power, not level)
But the enemies don't have to scale with you. That would be the shittiest way to do it that undermines power progression. ESO got that right by pegging all enemies to one level. WOW didn't.
Having a variety of enemies from easy to very hard is a good thing but they need to be at a set power level so you can actually feel your progress.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Preferably no scaling.
Scaling destroys the sense of progression. Feels like there's no point of doing this specific thing I'm doing in this specific area.
Well in GW2, you progess through certain areas. If you want map completion you have to go to those other lowbie maps. Do you want to one shot everything?
You do get other harder areas. Some are nigh impossible w/o others and some are not.
I don't think it deters that at all. I think it makes sense.
Your opinion is wrong.
It is my opinion TYVM. For me it is right, for you maybe wrong. Don't like scaling, don't play games with it. It is that simple. There is no right and wrong answer here.
There are plenty of games to go around.
(Just making a point)
What point was that? I didn't say anyone was wrong that didn't agree with me. I guess you don't understand the idea of a discussion. Declarative statements do not make a discussion.
ESO as an example was turned into one gigantic starter zone, yawn!
Gating doesn't bother me too much as i don't normally have a lot of time to play anyway, and with being an alt lover, makes gating practically insignificant to me.
One positive gating result is players never feel like they are way behind the no lifers.
As an example my cloak is level 7 and the cap is 11 atm, reality is being behind the no lifer curve doesn't bother me anyway, I'm more about immersion, questing and dungeon runs, so as long as i'm relevant in the runs i'm golden.
The other half of gating though is when i do have time and want to binge the absolute f'ing chit out of the game, meh it's kinda difficult with all the hard stops, but i love my alts so again doesn't really impact me too much, but have to admit how much it sucks when i'm in that mood to do so.
My faith is my shield! - Turalyon 2022
Your legend ends here and now! - (Battles Won Long Ago)
I think the best plan would be to have a variety of leveled content in a variety of zones. There could be a noob zone, or zones, where monsters are capped at level "X". But in the "real world" monsters should be a wide variety of levels. Resources of various levels should spawn all over the place.
Hell, if they really want to get cute, the game could spawn monsters in a zone based on the level of players normally there.
I don't think any PVE mmo will really be great until developers figure out a way to procedually generate quests, dungeons, and raids. I just hope I live long enough to see it.
Comments
As for lvl scaling, imo lvl scaling (player to mobs or mobs to player) makes the game world more believable. Otherwise you get these weird power gaps when you go back to old content. Like in oldschool MMO's. Where the same npc's still mention being harassed by a band of thieves with a very dangerous boss, but this boss can now be one shotted now that you are 20 levels higher. It is ridiculous. Lvl scaling when done right, makes this power gap smaller.
I also think lvl scaling is important to keep all zones in a game relevant. If a game is developed with this in mind and uses lvl scaling, you can create reasons for max progressed players to visit to all zones. Making all of the game more populated and not just 'endgame' zones. This can also add replayability.
Scaling destroys the sense of progression. Feels like there's no point of doing this specific thing I'm doing in this specific area.
You do get other harder areas. Some are nigh impossible w/o others and some are not.
I don't think it deters that at all. I think it makes sense.
It is my opinion TYVM. For me it is right, for you maybe wrong. Don't like scaling, don't play games with it. It is that simple. There is no right and wrong answer here.
There are plenty of games to go around.
Thing is that you can totally get rid of levels and still have meaningful progression as well as mobs and places where you'll get beat to a pulp if you go there before you've progressed enough.
Level numbers are just a handy dandy way of giving a rough estimate of power - more so in some games than others. But it isn't the only way to gain power, just the traditional way to do it.
I actually find it more immersive and more difficult if I don't know ahead of the fight whether I'm up to it or not. Having your level number and their level numbers floating over their heads or just roughly known because you're now in zone Y and not X just makes it easier.
If you take level = power out of the equation the whole "scaling" debate becomes irrelevant.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Or mix levels in zones.
Having a defined path is always worse imho and mostly makes zones obsolete as soon as the starting crowd is through.
I also hate it when areas are worthless for me, especially when I like the areas style.
1997 Meridian 59 'til 2019 ESO
Waiting for Camelot Unchained & Pantheon
Down Scaling keeps the zones viable.
Having a variety of enemies from easy to very hard is a good thing but they need to be at a set power level so you can actually feel your progress.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
What point was that? I didn't say anyone was wrong that didn't agree with me. I guess you don't understand the idea of a discussion. Declarative statements do not make a discussion.
ESO as an example was turned into one gigantic starter zone, yawn!
Gating doesn't bother me too much as i don't normally have a lot of time to play anyway, and with being an alt lover, makes gating practically insignificant to me.
One positive gating result is players never feel like they are way behind the no lifers.
As an example my cloak is level 7 and the cap is 11 atm, reality is being behind the no lifer curve doesn't bother me anyway, I'm more about immersion, questing and dungeon runs, so as long as i'm relevant in the runs i'm golden.
The other half of gating though is when i do have time and want to binge the absolute f'ing chit out of the game, meh it's kinda difficult with all the hard stops, but i love my alts so again doesn't really impact me too much, but have to admit how much it sucks when i'm in that mood to do so.
I think the best plan would be to have a variety of leveled content in a variety of zones. There could be a noob zone, or zones, where monsters are capped at level "X". But in the "real world" monsters should be a wide variety of levels. Resources of various levels should spawn all over the place.
Hell, if they really want to get cute, the game could spawn monsters in a zone based on the level of players normally there.
I don't think any PVE mmo will really be great until developers figure out a way to procedually generate quests, dungeons, and raids. I just hope I live long enough to see it.