Totally agree with this, please provide the Executive Summary (or MTV) version of important info, meaning videos limited to the length of a long music video like Thriller, and a short, two or three slide PP of relevant points.
If I can't consume the entire content in less than 15 minutes, the devs are doing it wrong, at least if they are hoping for my business.
Oh yes, not too much talk, in game demos preferably and no, I don't actually need to see the devs, better if they remain faceless narrators of the action who let the gameplay do most of the talking.
Hey, I've worked in a corporate culture for many years now, too set in my ways to change now.
Yeah, that's not gonna happen
If you want those types of things, that's what the media is supposed to do for ya. I don't do "short" and "concise" so
Alas, no money for you then, because the media certainly hasn't been doing a very good job in recent years.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
@Renfail Whatever man, I would never support a company that has a spokesman like yourself. You and your team are living in a fantasy world if you think what you guys have shown is going to survive in the 2022 gaming scene.
I find it weird too, that all your videos on your game's YT channel are all unlisted too and your subreddit hasn't had a post in almost 9 months.
I just Googled your game too and all the videos up there are at least 9 months old too and they look awful.
Also, most real game developers don't waste their time spewing nasty remarks at people that are have legitimate concerns with their game because they are too busy working on their damn game.
For 6 years of work you guys don't have anything here, it is a few demos using a bunch of Unity stores assets.
Closed alpha. Of course we haven't shown anything for more than a year. That's the whole purpose of NDA + closed alpha. Nothing out to the public in 12 months now. Only behind closed doors to our alpha community.
Sub-reddit? We don't run it. Aren't really interested in it. Have posted there infrequently. We have our forums + website + Discord + our own social media. That's where we interact with our community. We post daily (almost daily) on social media and are 24/7 active in our Discord.
Don't want to support us? Not a problem. It sounds like we aren't building the type of game you would want to play in the first place, so you needn't bother about chiming in on this topic any longer since you don't have a horse in this race
Alas, no money for you then, because the media certainly hasn't been doing a very good job in recent years.
More often they just re-link your stuff....bah...
We're aware.
I will say this. Joseph Bradford actually reached out yesterday for an interview. So *maybe* MMORPG.com is trying to get themselves back on the up and up?
Closed alpha. Of course we haven't shown anything for more than a year. That's the whole purpose of NDA + closed alpha. Nothing out to the public in 12 months now. Only behind closed doors to our alpha community.
Sub-reddit? We don't run it. Aren't really interested in it. Have posted there infrequently. We have our forums + website + Discord + our own social media. That's where we interact with our community. We post daily (almost daily) on social media and are 24/7 active in our Discord.
Don't want to support us? Not a problem. It sounds like we aren't building the type of game you would want to play in the first place, so you needn't bother about chiming in on this topic any longer since you don't have a horse in this race
I was all on board for your project in the beginning, but the way you have conducted yourself just screams that you lack the experience to develop any game let alone an MMO.
I wish you guys all the best though, I for one am done throwing money at indie MMOs that basically are thrown together using Unity store assets. (Gloria Victus, Life is Feudal, Shroud of the Avatar)
I honestly don't see how your game is going to attract any kind of player base when Pantheon is miles ahead of you guys and looks so much better. Why would I play your game over theirs?
I just watched the teaser you just posted on YT too and the game looks the same as it did from last year.
It looks the same as a lot of the other early access games out there that are using Unity. I mean the story for you game is kind of cool, but that can only carry it so far.
Yep, a teaser video that literally shows nothing other than scenery OBVISOULY isn't going to show anything new in terms of mechanics/etc. as that's not the point of the video.
That being said, there are over 50 new things teased in that video compared to our last one shown 12 months ago. Not the least of which is the fact that it's a brand new zone. If you can't see the difference /shrug
@Renfail ; Also, most real game developers don't waste their time spewing nasty remarks at people that are have legitimate concerns with their game because they are too busy working on their damn game.
Err, you don't get out much eh?
Tim is one of the few, if not only dev lead to regularly visit this or any other forum site.
Jacob's hasn't made an appearance here in over two years though still posts on MOP.
Steven, Jeremy, Brad (RIP) and Robert's, even longer (if ever)
I mean lets face it, we are pretty much a bunch of caustic s who say others need a thick skin to post here, Tim has shown to be up to the task which at least I appreciate.
He's welcome to call me out on my BS anytime he wishes, as long as he keeps coming back to visit on occasion.
Otherwise I might have to go visit his forums / Discord...just ask the COE backers how much they value my "contribution" there.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The question is: what perks can you include without breaking the golden rule of "things that do not affect the other players and their progression in the game".
Thus the discussion we are having with our community.
I feel like you're trying to reinvent the wheel here. Other developers figured out how to do this ages ago. They didn't all stick to the rule forever, but usually they only break it when the game expands so far that player progression no longer bears any resemblance to what it was in the game's infancy. If you make it that far, THAT'S the time for a community discussion. At first, stick with cosmetic items only.
I really like the Warframe revenue model. I am not sure you can replicate such model on a traditional MMORPG though.
Not sure. It's been an interesting R&D project for me the past few weeks. But it's certainly one of the least egregious ones as far as community perception goes. Along with Path of Exile.
Warframe allows you to buy boosts (xp potions, resource potions etc), buy items and characters directly from the shop, and buy platinum which is a tradeable currency used to buy items from the store OR other players. You can buy the most powerful items in the game with platinum (real money currency). Also obvious cosmetics and skins too.
That being said, it's a PvE grinder game. I've never felt like it was P2W since there is no real winning. Your progress is solely yours 95% of the time. Most older MMOs have the krono/plex style real money transaction, skins, and boosts. In a new MMO I'd say it would feel odd to have convenient features at launch, like most eastern games.
@Renfail ; Also, most real game developers don't waste their time spewing nasty remarks at people that are have legitimate concerns with their game because they are too busy working on their damn game.
Err, you don't get out much eh?
Tim is one of the few, if not only dev lead to regularly visit this or any other forum site.
Jacob's hasn't made an appearance here in over two years though still posts on MOP.
Steven, Jeremy, Brad (RIP) and Robert's, even longer (if ever)
I mean lets face it, we are pretty much a bunch of caustic s who say others need a thick skin to post here, Tim has shown to be up to the task which at least I appreciate.
He's welcome to call me out on my BS anytime he wishes, as long as he keeps coming back to visit on occasion.
Otherwise I might have to go visit his forums / Discord...just ask the COE backers how much they value my "contribution" there.
Anytime I see a backlink coming in to the site, I try to make it there to have a converation with folks.
Even when it's in another language. I've literally used Google Translate to leave some comments for some Russian sites in the past, which led to their guys going "holy shit, this guy is actually communicating with us", which led to them doing a multi-part interview with us (which MMORPG.com actually picked up the transcribed, shortened version of a couple/few years back).
I've probably made 300+ accounts on random guild forums over the past few years, going wherever folks are having conversations about our game and doing what I can to answer questions.
I can't be everywhere, but I try my best, and that includes answering even the trolly comments.
There have been days when I've answered 300+ comments in a single day. A long day, to be sure. But those typically end up being high sales days as well (though our pre-order store has been shut down for the last year).
If it wasn't worth it, I wouldn't be out here beating the drum for my baby.
Which is why I'm happy to answer even the negative comments. It all leads back to sales for us.
If the game is good, I am happy to pay 50 bucks / month subs. A cash shop included in a game of this type would unfortunately mean that I would pass in spite of that I already own the game.
$50 for an indie low polish unfinished game with sub par graphics?
Why would anyone do this?
Subpar graphics is not a problem for me. I still have fun with quality old games including some from the 90's.
Low polish is something I can live with as well as I started gaming a long time ago when polish wasnt much of a thing.
As for unfinished, I think it depends on what this specifically means. As long as the game is immersive and contains a mix of features that make it fun for me, I can tolerate some features not yet being implemented.
Regarding the price tag, I think it comes down to the financial situation. I spend 50 bucks for lunch / cinema or other types of entertainment that provide me with fewer hours of fun than a decent computer game.
All of the above.
One thing I think is worth noting is that *no* MMORPG in the history of the genre has launched "finished". They have all launched and then added features and mechanics and new races and new things over time. They are games as a service, not one-and-done titles.
The dinner one is something I've pointed out in the past as well. A nice meal out with my wife will easily cost us 100 dollars or more once you factor in a bottle of wine + tip, and that's a mere 2-3 hours of entertainment, versus the hundreds to thousands of hours I get from an MMORPG.
Even single player titles typically get me 40-80 hours on average, with the rare beasts like Witcher 3 getting me well over 120 hours of enjoyment.
So yeah, 60-70 dollars for a title is money well spent for me, every time.
Gaming is a really cheap hobby compared to many others. Try building physical tabletop boards as an example. My brother and I spent 500+ dollars when we built a few for our annual team meeting back in 2017 =P https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9SqZW3ZW6M
Photography is another hobby that can get fairly expensive once you start factoring in all the latest doohickeys and lenses. Then you gotta get a drone and subsequent battery packs and and and....
Yeah Much cheaper for me to just stay at home and buy games as a general rule. Plus, my wife always knows where I am
If the game is good, I am happy to pay 50 bucks / month subs. A cash shop included in a game of this type would unfortunately mean that I would pass in spite of that I already own the game.
$50 for an indie low polish unfinished game with sub par graphics?
Why would anyone do this?
Subpar graphics is not a problem for me. I still have fun with quality old games including some from the 90's.
Low polish is something I can live with as well as I started gaming a long time ago when polish wasnt much of a thing.
As for unfinished, I think it depends on what this specifically means. As long as the game is immersive and contains a mix of features that make it fun for me, I can tolerate some features not yet being implemented.
Regarding the price tag, I think it comes down to the financial situation. I spend 50 bucks for lunch / cinema or other types of entertainment that provide me with fewer hours of fun than a decent computer game.
Gaming is a really cheap hobby compared to many others. Try building physical tabletop boards as an example. My brother and I spent 500+ dollars when we built a few for our annual team meeting back in 2017 =P https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9SqZW3ZW6M
Photography is another hobby that can get fairly expensive once you start factoring in all the latest doohickeys and lenses. Then you gotta get a drone and subsequent battery packs and and and....
Yeah Much cheaper for me to just stay at home and buy games as a general rule. Plus, my wife always knows where I am
Just be happy you don't have a car project hobby. It makes gaming seem like lunch money.
Gaming is a really cheap hobby compared to many others. Try building physical tabletop boards as an example. My brother and I spent 500+ dollars when we built a few for our annual team meeting back in 2017 =P https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9SqZW3ZW6M
Photography is another hobby that can get fairly expensive once you start factoring in all the latest doohickeys and lenses. Then you gotta get a drone and subsequent battery packs and and and....
Yeah Much cheaper for me to just stay at home and buy games as a general rule. Plus, my wife always knows where I am
Just be happy you don't have a car project hobby. It makes gaming seem like lunch money.
My parents have a cattle ranch that I'm not involved with. I'm intimately familiar with "money sink" lol
Consequently the garage where we filmed that video above for the tabletop game, the truck in the background is the one my brother was working on (still is, I think, several years later). Another massive money sink.
I don't have such destructive habits, although my wife and I love travel, which was also our job for a good decade until we shut everything down at the end of 2017 so I could focus full-time on the game.
If the game is good, I am happy to pay 50 bucks / month subs. A cash shop included in a game of this type would unfortunately mean that I would pass in spite of that I already own the game.
$50 for an indie low polish unfinished game with sub par graphics?
Why would anyone do this?
Subpar graphics is not a problem for me. I still have fun with quality old games including some from the 90's.
Low polish is something I can live with as well as I started gaming a long time ago when polish wasnt much of a thing.
As for unfinished, I think it depends on what this specifically means. As long as the game is immersive and contains a mix of features that make it fun for me, I can tolerate some features not yet being implemented.
Regarding the price tag, I think it comes down to the financial situation. I spend 50 bucks for lunch / cinema or other types of entertainment that provide me with fewer hours of fun than a decent computer game.
All of the above.
One thing I think is worth noting is that *no* MMORPG in the history of the genre has launched "finished". They have all launched and then added features and mechanics and new races and new things over time. They are games as a service, not one-and-done titles.
While MMORPGs never launch "finished," what they actually should be striving for is to deliver a Minimally Marketable Product (MMP not MVP) especially if the budget is tight.
One could argue SCs alphas well qualify considering RI raised almost $50M in 2019.
So presumably you have a MMP feature set with a certain quality level which you are striving to release at, regardless of date or maybe even funds?
As for hobbies, just stay away from golf, there's a real money sink if you drink the Koolaid.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
While MMORPGs never launch "finished," what they actually should be striving for is to deliver a Minimally Marketable Product (MMP not MVP) especially if the budget is tight.
One could argue SCs alphas well qualify considering RI raised almost $50M in 2019.
So presumably you have a MMP feature set with a certain quality level which you are striving to release at, regardless of date or maybe even funds?
As for hobbies, just stay away from golf, there's a real money sink if you drink the Koolaid.
My late brother was into golf, so I'm aware =P
As far as our own product, the whole reason we set the Q4 2021 target window is because it's when we'll have a basic MMP ready for launch. That, and by that point we'll be 8 years in and we all have spouses who are waiting for us to get a paycheck and our community members are getting tired of constant wipes =P
That's actually been the major selling point for our investors as they've come on board over the last year is that we're one of the only indie projects out there who hasn't been afraid to set an actual freaking date to work towards.
That, and the fact that we can launch within our target window without needing additional funding. The investment money coming in at this point is funding additional staff who will add much-needed polish to the game (graphics programmer, VFX artist, animator, for example) as we go from alpha into beta and start working on optimization and polish.
Now, we could absolutely do what the other games are doing and push launch back to some far future date where we will have enough "polish" to launch against a sea of other games with as little criticism as possible. And then milk crowdfunding for every penny it's worth and start drawing salaries against that income and just develop into eternity as an alpha product (star citizen *cough* camelot unchained *cough*)
But we would much rather launch our game regardless of the competition and continue our reputation of one step at a time, warts and all, progress slowly at our own pace but make progress nontheless, and build up over time rather than try to make some waves as the "best new MMORPG on the market".
So the fun part about this is that we don't actually need any additional money to launch. It's all just polish at this point. So the more money we raise from investors + the pre-order store that's about to re-open dictates how many new hires we can bring on. The more money we raise, the more artists/polish staff we hire, all of which helps the game look and feel better than it does currently.
But we don't need any other hires to launch. We're pretty much squared away from now until we hit our MMP targets, which are basically a list of features that we feel establish the basis of what sets our game apart from other PVE titles out there, and from there we will build upon that foundation layer as we unfold over time.
I'm super proud of what our team has accomplished, despite what the naysayers will say about how the game "looks like shit" (duh, it's in alpha, though I would argue that I think it looks pretty damn good even for an alpha). We all came from nowhere back in 2014, with zero development background, and these days we're showing up on top lists of upcoming PVE MMORPGs all over the 'net, I've gotten to sit down with leads of multiple AAA companies over the past three years and talk shop and get advice, we've had publishers pursue us over the past several years, landed investors that have allowed us to expand the team, and basically pursue our dreams of working professionally in game development.
While MMORPGs never launch "finished," what they actually should be striving for is to deliver a Minimally Marketable Product (MMP not MVP) especially if the budget is tight.
One could argue SCs alphas well qualify considering RI raised almost $50M in 2019.
So presumably you have a MMP feature set with a certain quality level which you are striving to release at, regardless of date or maybe even funds?
As for hobbies, just stay away from golf, there's a real money sink if you drink the Koolaid.
My late brother was into golf, so I'm aware =P
As far as our own product, the whole reason we set the Q4 2021 target window is because it's when we'll have a basic MMP ready for launch. That, and by that point we'll be 8 years in and we all have spouses who are waiting for us to get a paycheck and our community members are getting tired of constant wipes =P
That's actually been the major selling point for our investors as they've come on board over the last year is that we're one of the only indie projects out there who hasn't been afraid to set an actual freaking date to work towards.
That, and the fact that we can launch within our target window without needing additional funding. The investment money coming in at this point is funding additional staff who will add much-needed polish to the game (graphics programmer, VFX artist, animator, for example) as we go from alpha into beta and start working on optimization and polish.
Now, we could absolutely do what the other games are doing and push launch back to some far future date where we will have enough "polish" to launch against a sea of other games with as little criticism as possible. And then milk crowdfunding for every penny it's worth.
No, no, no, such old school thinking to indie crowd funding.
Clearly you've been stuck in your dev lair for too long, the latest trend is to....wait for it..... create and release an entirely different game....before the one you promised to build.
Ashes went for a BR, CU recently announced a seige defense game, doesn't really matter, you could release a new soccer simulator as long as you tell the backers it will help test or prove out some loosely related MMORPG feature.
Best if you wait to announce it right before you tell everyone your latest promise date is never going to happen unless this new game is a success.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
No, no, no, such old school thinking to indie crowd funding.
Clearly you've been stuck in your dev lair for too long, the latest trend is to....wait for it..... create and release an entirely different game....before the one you promised to build.
Ashes went for a BR, CU recently announced a seige defense game, doesn't really matter, you could release a new soccer simulator as long as you tell the backers it will help test or prove out some loosely related MMORPG feature.
Best if you wait to announce it right before you tell everyone your latest promise date is never going to happen unless this new game is a success.
Dudes in here saying ish like "$50 for an unfinished game!? whos gonna do that?" and I'm gonna spend that on 3 drinks and a small plate Friday. It's 2020 people, things cost money.
If the game is good, I am happy to pay 50 bucks / month subs. A cash shop included in a game of this type would unfortunately mean that I would pass in spite of that I already own the game.
$50 for an indie low polish unfinished game with sub par graphics?
Why would anyone do this?
Subpar graphics is not a problem for me. I still have fun with quality old games including some from the 90's.
Low polish is something I can live with as well as I started gaming a long time ago when polish wasnt much of a thing.
As for unfinished, I think it depends on what this specifically means. As long as the game is immersive and contains a mix of features that make it fun for me, I can tolerate some features not yet being implemented.
Regarding the price tag, I think it comes down to the financial situation. I spend 50 bucks for lunch / cinema or other types of entertainment that provide me with fewer hours of fun than a decent computer game.
Polish is being redefined at this moment. From what some of us have seen @coretex666 I am 100% sure this new definition is far far below what you are thinking.
Dudes in here saying ish like "$50 for an unfinished game!? whos gonna do that?" and I'm gonna spend that on 3 drinks and a small plate Friday. It's 2020 people, things cost money.
Again with this flawed to the core argument.
Spending $150 on a fancy dinner- yep.
Spending $60 bucks on a broken alpha with shite gameplay.. is an entirely different thing.
It is 2 entirely different scenarios
By this dumb argument paying $90 for a glass of tap water is perfectly fine because... its 2020 things cost money...
Please...
I dunno man, seems you can buy $60K bottles of water.. clearly some things do cost money.
$60 bucks seems like a great bargin.
Acqua di Cristallo Tributo a Modigliani – $60,000 Per 750ml
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If the game is good, I am happy to pay 50 bucks / month subs. A cash shop included in a game of this type would unfortunately mean that I would pass in spite of that I already own the game.
$50 for an indie low polish unfinished game with sub par graphics?
Why would anyone do this?
Subpar graphics is not a problem for me. I still have fun with quality old games including some from the 90's.
Low polish is something I can live with as well as I started gaming a long time ago when polish wasnt much of a thing.
As for unfinished, I think it depends on what this specifically means. As long as the game is immersive and contains a mix of features that make it fun for me, I can tolerate some features not yet being implemented.
Regarding the price tag, I think it comes down to the financial situation. I spend 50 bucks for lunch / cinema or other types of entertainment that provide me with fewer hours of fun than a decent computer game.
Polish is being redefined at this moment. From what some of us have seen @coretex666 I am 100% sure this new definition is far far below what you are thinking.
I get you, but look, what I was trying to say is that I do not need a triple A game to have fun. Polish and graphics are not that important for me from the variety of MMO elements.
Having said that, the game does have to offer something attractive for me in terms of its features. If it offers the same things as any other MMO just with less polish and worse graphics, then there is no reason for me to pay anything for it, let alone a $50 monthly subs.
If, however, the game offers features or a set of features I do not get elsewhere and which I do find attractive, I will happily pay an above average subs for it in spite of the worse graphics and less polish.
Exactly why I play FO76, no where else to get a post apocalyptic multiplayer experience with anywhere near the same game play experience, so I overlook the performance issues and bugs.
Even better, the sub is only $12.99 a month, not $50, so actually a bargin in my book.
Hey Tim, I might check out your game if you promise to add in .5mm miniguns and automatic combat shotguns.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Dudes in here saying ish like "$50 for an unfinished game!? whos gonna do that?" and I'm gonna spend that on 3 drinks and a small plate Friday. It's 2020 people, things cost money.
Again with this flawed to the core argument.
Spending $150 on a fancy dinner- yep.
Spending $60 bucks on a broken alpha with shite gameplay.. is an entirely different thing.
It is 2 entirely different scenarios
By this dumb argument paying $90 for a glass of tap water is perfectly fine because... its 2020 things cost money...
Please...
Different folks have different views of what they find valuable.
I personally couldn't give two shits about PvP, so therefore I'm not interested in nor involved in games like Crowfall or Ashes of Creation, though I have friends who are (on both counts) and are having fun.
I couldn't care about streaming for a living, but I have friends who do. More power to 'em.
My wife drinks a lot of tea. I prefer coffee. Couldn't care less what she drinks or when. Her life, her choice.
Everything costs money, and the value of those things is entirely up to the user. Not you, not I.
So it's not a flawed argument. It's simply an issue of other people having likes/dislikes that differ from your own. Absolutely natural.
I get you, but look, what I was trying to say is that I do not need a triple A game to have fun. Polish and graphics are not that important for me from the variety of MMO elements.
Having said that, the game does have to offer something attractive for me in terms of its features. If it offers the same things as any other MMO just with less polish and worse graphics, then there is no reason for me to pay anything for it, let alone a $50 monthly subs.
If, however, the game offers features or a set of features I do not get elsewhere and which I do find attractive, I will happily pay an above average subs for it in spite of the worse graphics and less polish.
To some degree, I'm on the same page.
I also play a lot of games that are same/similar to others, but I'm OK with that, because I enjoy storyline more than most folks, so games that have same/similar mechanics can be different enough for me to still enjoy.
Uncharted series versus Tomb Raider. Essentially the exact same game, with one told from a male perspective, and another from a female. One is a self-made treasure hunter, the other is a wealthy treasure hunter. Gameplay = exactly the same. Still play all the various entries into both series. Fun as hell.
Star Wars Jedi: Fallen Order. Essentially a mix-up of the above two games, set in the Star Wars Universe. WITH LIGHTSABERS!!!!! Coolest thing I played all last year, apart from Anthem, which I really enjoyed with my brother, despite the bugs and lack of end game. And yes, I pre-ordered both those games the day they became available to do so, many months in advance, and never once felt like I had wasted my money.
Indie-wise, I played Outward, Pathfinder: Kingmaker, can't think of all the others at the moment, and enjoyed those just as much as the AAA games.
Latest Call of Duty? I spent 60 bucks, beat the campaign in like 10-12 hours, and then was thoroughly unimpressed with the multiplayer. Single player campaign? Amazeballs. But I have no desire to play teabag with a bunch of randos. For me, I felt like that 60 bucks was wasted, despite the quality of the campaign, because I only got like 10 hours of entertainment out of it.
Personal opinion, however. My uncle, as an example, specifically bought that game to come home every night and run around with his friends and slaughter noobs, and has easily gotten several hundred hours of the game so far.
Opinion is key on who finds value in what, and that polish isn't always indicative of a "good" game.
Can a game these days survive on $15 a month? Is it enough to pay the team and other expenses?
I have no idea. It may not be and the developer realising it may not be is something he needs to address. He's doing that.
I sincerely doubt it. Even WoW and FFXIV, the two flagships of Sub only MMOs also have a ton of microtransactions to increase their income. So if the initial promise really was "This will be a sub only game, with nothing else to add further revenue", then that was either very naive of whoever promised it, or intentionally misleading.
I haven't followed this title closely, so I honestly couldn't say whether that promise was ever even a thing. It does look like it could be an interesting game though.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
Can a game these days survive on $15 a month? Is it enough to pay the team and other expenses?
I have no idea. It may not be and the developer realising it may not be is something he needs to address. He's doing that.
I sincerely doubt it. Even WoW and FFXIV, the two flagships of Sub only MMOs also have a ton of microtransactions to increase their income. So if the initial promise really was "This will be sub only game, with nothing else to add further revenue", then that was either very naive of whoever promised it, or intentionally misleading.
I haven't followed this title closely, so I honestly couldn't say whether that promise was ever even a thing. It does look like it could be an interesting title though.
Well, I believe Mark Jacob's originally promised CU would be a sub only game, but he also promised to try and deliver it in two years or so.
I'll be surprised if his vow isn't broken before it's all over, in some ways his new plan to deliver a different game first kinda did.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Comments
More often they just re-link your stuff....bah...
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I find it weird too, that all your videos on your game's YT channel are all unlisted too and your subreddit hasn't had a post in almost 9 months.
I just Googled your game too and all the videos up there are at least 9 months old too and they look awful.
Also, most real game developers don't waste their time spewing nasty remarks at people that are have legitimate concerns with their game because they are too busy working on their damn game.
For 6 years of work you guys don't have anything here, it is a few demos using a bunch of Unity stores assets.
Sub-reddit? We don't run it. Aren't really interested in it. Have posted there infrequently. We have our forums + website + Discord + our own social media. That's where we interact with our community. We post daily (almost daily) on social media and are 24/7 active in our Discord.
Don't want to support us? Not a problem. It sounds like we aren't building the type of game you would want to play in the first place, so you needn't bother about chiming in on this topic any longer since you don't have a horse in this race
I will say this. Joseph Bradford actually reached out yesterday for an interview. So *maybe* MMORPG.com is trying to get themselves back on the up and up?
Only time will tell
I wish you guys all the best though, I for one am done throwing money at indie MMOs that basically are thrown together using Unity store assets. (Gloria Victus, Life is Feudal, Shroud of the Avatar)
I honestly don't see how your game is going to attract any kind of player base when Pantheon is miles ahead of you guys and looks so much better. Why would I play your game over theirs?
I just watched the teaser you just posted on YT too and the game looks the same as it did from last year.
It looks the same as a lot of the other early access games out there that are using Unity. I mean the story for you game is kind of cool, but that can only carry it so far.
That being said, there are over 50 new things teased in that video compared to our last one shown 12 months ago. Not the least of which is the fact that it's a brand new zone. If you can't see the difference /shrug
So long, and thanks for all the fish!
Tim is one of the few, if not only dev lead to regularly visit this or any other forum site.
Jacob's hasn't made an appearance here in over two years though still posts on MOP.
Steven, Jeremy, Brad (RIP) and Robert's, even longer (if ever)
I mean lets face it, we are pretty much a bunch of caustic
He's welcome to call me out on my BS anytime he wishes, as long as he keeps coming back to visit on occasion.
Otherwise I might have to go visit his forums / Discord...just ask the COE backers how much they value my "contribution" there.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I feel like you're trying to reinvent the wheel here. Other developers figured out how to do this ages ago. They didn't all stick to the rule forever, but usually they only break it when the game expands so far that player progression no longer bears any resemblance to what it was in the game's infancy. If you make it that far, THAT'S the time for a community discussion. At first, stick with cosmetic items only.
That being said, it's a PvE grinder game. I've never felt like it was P2W since there is no real winning. Your progress is solely yours 95% of the time. Most older MMOs have the krono/plex style real money transaction, skins, and boosts. In a new MMO I'd say it would feel odd to have convenient features at launch, like most eastern games.
Even when it's in another language. I've literally used Google Translate to leave some comments for some Russian sites in the past, which led to their guys going "holy shit, this guy is actually communicating with us", which led to them doing a multi-part interview with us (which MMORPG.com actually picked up the transcribed, shortened version of a couple/few years back).
I've probably made 300+ accounts on random guild forums over the past few years, going wherever folks are having conversations about our game and doing what I can to answer questions.
I can't be everywhere, but I try my best, and that includes answering even the trolly comments.
There have been days when I've answered 300+ comments in a single day. A long day, to be sure. But those typically end up being high sales days as well (though our pre-order store has been shut down for the last year).
If it wasn't worth it, I wouldn't be out here beating the drum for my baby.
Which is why I'm happy to answer even the negative comments. It all leads back to sales for us.
One thing I think is worth noting is that *no* MMORPG in the history of the genre has launched "finished". They have all launched and then added features and mechanics and new races and new things over time. They are games as a service, not one-and-done titles.
The dinner one is something I've pointed out in the past as well. A nice meal out with my wife will easily cost us 100 dollars or more once you factor in a bottle of wine + tip, and that's a mere 2-3 hours of entertainment, versus the hundreds to thousands of hours I get from an MMORPG.
Even single player titles typically get me 40-80 hours on average, with the rare beasts like Witcher 3 getting me well over 120 hours of enjoyment.
So yeah, 60-70 dollars for a title is money well spent for me, every time.
Gaming is a really cheap hobby compared to many others. Try building physical tabletop boards as an example. My brother and I spent 500+ dollars when we built a few for our annual team meeting back in 2017 =P https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9SqZW3ZW6M
Photography is another hobby that can get fairly expensive once you start factoring in all the latest doohickeys and lenses. Then you gotta get a drone and subsequent battery packs and and and....
Yeah
My parents have a cattle ranch that I'm not involved with. I'm intimately familiar with "money sink" lol
Consequently the garage where we filmed that video above for the tabletop game, the truck in the background is the one my brother was working on (still is, I think, several years later). Another massive money sink.
I don't have such destructive habits, although my wife and I love travel, which was also our job for a good decade until we shut everything down at the end of 2017 so I could focus full-time on the game.
One could argue SCs alphas well qualify considering RI raised almost $50M in 2019.
So presumably you have a MMP feature set with a certain quality level which you are striving to release at, regardless of date or maybe even funds?
As for hobbies, just stay away from golf, there's a real money sink if you drink the Koolaid.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
As far as our own product, the whole reason we set the Q4 2021 target window is because it's when we'll have a basic MMP ready for launch. That, and by that point we'll be 8 years in and we all have spouses who are waiting for us to get a paycheck and our community members are getting tired of constant wipes =P
That's actually been the major selling point for our investors as they've come on board over the last year is that we're one of the only indie projects out there who hasn't been afraid to set an actual freaking date to work towards.
That, and the fact that we can launch within our target window without needing additional funding. The investment money coming in at this point is funding additional staff who will add much-needed polish to the game (graphics programmer, VFX artist, animator, for example) as we go from alpha into beta and start working on optimization and polish.
BTW we are hiring
Now, we could absolutely do what the other games are doing and push launch back to some far future date where we will have enough "polish" to launch against a sea of other games with as little criticism as possible. And then milk crowdfunding for every penny it's worth and start drawing salaries against that income and just develop into eternity as an alpha product (star citizen *cough* camelot unchained *cough*)
But we would much rather launch our game regardless of the competition and continue our reputation of one step at a time, warts and all, progress slowly at our own pace but make progress nontheless, and build up over time rather than try to make some waves as the "best new MMORPG on the market".
So the fun part about this is that we don't actually need any additional money to launch. It's all just polish at this point. So the more money we raise from investors + the pre-order store that's about to re-open dictates how many new hires we can bring on. The more money we raise, the more artists/polish staff we hire, all of which helps the game look and feel better than it does currently.
But we don't need any other hires to launch. We're pretty much squared away from now until we hit our MMP targets, which are basically a list of features that we feel establish the basis of what sets our game apart from other PVE titles out there, and from there we will build upon that foundation layer as we unfold over time.
I'm super proud of what our team has accomplished, despite what the naysayers will say about how the game "looks like shit" (duh, it's in alpha, though I would argue that I think it looks pretty damn good even for an alpha). We all came from nowhere back in 2014, with zero development background, and these days we're showing up on top lists of upcoming PVE MMORPGs all over the 'net, I've gotten to sit down with leads of multiple AAA companies over the past three years and talk shop and get advice, we've had publishers pursue us over the past several years, landed investors that have allowed us to expand the team, and basically pursue our dreams of working professionally in game development.
Clearly you've been stuck in your dev lair for too long, the latest trend is to....wait for it..... create and release an entirely different game....before the one you promised to build.
Ashes went for a BR, CU recently announced a seige defense game, doesn't really matter, you could release a new soccer simulator as long as you tell the backers it will help test or prove out some loosely related MMORPG feature.
Best if you wait to announce it right before you tell everyone your latest promise date is never going to happen unless this new game is a success.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
$60 bucks seems like a great bargin.
Acqua di Cristallo Tributo a Modigliani – $60,000 Per 750ml
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I personally couldn't give two shits about PvP, so therefore I'm not interested in nor involved in games like Crowfall or Ashes of Creation, though I have friends who are (on both counts) and are having fun.
I couldn't care about streaming for a living, but I have friends who do. More power to 'em.
My wife drinks a lot of tea. I prefer coffee. Couldn't care less what she drinks or when. Her life, her choice.
Everything costs money, and the value of those things is entirely up to the user. Not you, not I.
So it's not a flawed argument. It's simply an issue of other people having likes/dislikes that differ from your own. Absolutely natural.
I also play a lot of games that are same/similar to others, but I'm OK with that, because I enjoy storyline more than most folks, so games that have same/similar mechanics can be different enough for me to still enjoy.
Uncharted series versus Tomb Raider. Essentially the exact same game, with one told from a male perspective, and another from a female. One is a self-made treasure hunter, the other is a wealthy treasure hunter. Gameplay = exactly the same. Still play all the various entries into both series. Fun as hell.
Star Wars Jedi: Fallen Order. Essentially a mix-up of the above two games, set in the Star Wars Universe. WITH LIGHTSABERS!!!!! Coolest thing I played all last year, apart from Anthem, which I really enjoyed with my brother, despite the bugs and lack of end game. And yes, I pre-ordered both those games the day they became available to do so, many months in advance, and never once felt like I had wasted my money.
Indie-wise, I played Outward, Pathfinder: Kingmaker, can't think of all the others at the moment, and enjoyed those just as much as the AAA games.
Latest Call of Duty? I spent 60 bucks, beat the campaign in like 10-12 hours, and then was thoroughly unimpressed with the multiplayer. Single player campaign? Amazeballs. But I have no desire to play teabag with a bunch of randos. For me, I felt like that 60 bucks was wasted, despite the quality of the campaign, because I only got like 10 hours of entertainment out of it.
Personal opinion, however. My uncle, as an example, specifically bought that game to come home every night and run around with his friends and slaughter noobs, and has easily gotten several hundred hours of the game so far.
Opinion is key on who finds value in what, and that polish isn't always indicative of a "good" game.
I haven't followed this title closely, so I honestly couldn't say whether that promise was ever even a thing. It does look like it could be an interesting game though.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
I'll be surprised if his vow isn't broken before it's all over, in some ways his new plan to deliver a different game first kinda did.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon