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CU Changing Route, New Game? AOC Method?

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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 15,485
    No one is wrong here. It’s disappointing that they are working on another game when CU is so far behind.  No doubt.  But it’s the trade off for that investment money which meant they did not have to bleed the backers dry.  I do not blame those that have reached the end of their patience and get a refund, but again, that option is unique to CU and so I give them far more latitude than I do others.  
    mklinic

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  • TiamatRoarTiamatRoar Member RarePosts: 1,675
    MMORPGs are expensive and difficult to create.  Way more than people ever realize, which helps lead to situations like this, alas.
    Sovrathgervaise1
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 17,558
    One word: refunds.

    Why bitch about what they're doing if you can easily and quickly get your money back?

    I'm not aware of any other KS MMO project that makes it this simple to act on your buyers' remorse.
    Slapshot1188SovrathcheebaRich84cheyaneGdemamimklinic
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

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  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 30,740
    edited February 2020
    Sovrath said:


    Well, if they need that investor's money and without it they tank then that investor's money does help Camelot Unchained.

    Unless you are just short sighted. If they go under then what's the point? And you lose your money anyhow.
    I think that's the crux of it.  They ran out of money to develop CU, so as a last ditch effort, they're developing this new game in an effort to bring in funds to finish the original game.  If this is the case, it would simply be more palatable for MJ to admit to it, rather than shoveling us some more developer spin.

    No they can't admit to it. If they did that would put a cloud over the development when it might just be a small speed bump. (or large bump but a bump nevertheless)

    And yes, that's probably the issue. They just can't finish it and need more funds.


    gervaise1
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  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 24,583
    Iselin said:
    One word: refunds.

    Why bitch about what they're doing if you can easily and quickly get your money back?

    I'm not aware of any other KS MMO project that makes it this simple to act on your buyers' remorse.
    Refunds are only available until they aren't.  If they run out of money, then there abruptly won't be any more refunds.
    KyleranRich84gervaise1
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 40,938
    Sovrath said:normaly
    Face it folks, we got taken for a ride.  Which do you think is talking louder to MJ, the old backer money for CU or the new investor money for Colossus?  
    No you and others didn't understand what you were getting into.

    And the lovely thing is that you don't have to lose a dime. Just get it back.

    A, good on them for diversifying. 

    B, whenever you give money to ANY kickstarter or similar project, give it like you give money to your family. You give it and say goodbye to it. If you get it back the great, if not then you would never have missed it.

    There are no guarantees with these things. Ever. That's the truest thing that can be said about crowdfunding. And a great wake up call to those who think that these things can always come to fruition or can be launched without major changes (or on time).
    Normally you are level headed, but you clearly are heading into white knight territory if you can't acknowledge what is wrong with this move.

    The ivory tower awaits.
    tweedledumb99Gdemami

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

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  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 40,938
    If this was any other developer than Mark Jacobs, you'd be pissed.  He's got some kind of hold on a lot of people.  
    What he has is a Refund Policy.  Which is quite different from his peers.  You cannot go and get your money back from AoC because you hate APOC.  You can't get your money back from CoE because they have made a mockery of the game.  You can't get your money back from Crowfall because they switched from voxels.

    You can, and always have been able to, get your money back from CU.

    To me, that makes all the difference in the world. And for any that have understandably reached the end of their patience..  they can go get that refund with no hard feelings.

    And you sir, are putting your Harbinger membership at risk, refunds be damned, just build and deliver the game he promised.

    But he can't, because he's running out of funds and investor patience.
    Rich84Gdemamibcbully

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing ESO - Blackwood at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 40,938
    Kyleran said:
    So, they are running out of funds to complete CU, investors are getting restless, no launch date in sight, so they go to the Ashes of Creation playbook and develop a new game to sell,  based off of tester feedback even.

    Wonder if it will have a cash shop?

    Probably.

    Yeah, it's become just another indie shitshow like all of the rest.

    Changed my mind, I will be asking for a refund now, he broke a promise he made years ago.

    He was asked back when BRs were first getting hot, and CF mentioned marketing their engine if he was going to try and take advantage by selling his engine also.

    He said no, while he would like to, "it wouldn't be right" to work on another project while CU was so long overdue.

    It isn't right.

    I applauded his integrity back then...I'll be slagging on him going forward. 

     >:) 
    @Kyleran is this the article you're talking about?  But of course, Colossus is actually going to speed up the release of CU, so his honesty stands.  

    https://massivelyop.com/2018/09/17/dragoncon-2018-camelot-unchaineds-mark-jacobs-on-vr-battle-royale-and-more/

    "After such an exciting prospect of playing and watching esports in VR, which has the groundwork already laid out, it was a bit surprising to hear a game company say it won’t jump on and ride the industry cash cow. Knowing that your engine can more than handle this but bring something new to the table, why not jump into the hottest craze right now that the top dogs are raking in the dough on? Jacobs said simply, “The H word: honesty. I promised our backers that we wouldn’t to anything major to delay the release of the game.”
    That would be the one.

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing ESO - Blackwood at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 17,558
    edited February 2020
    Quizzical said:
    Iselin said:
    One word: refunds.

    Why bitch about what they're doing if you can easily and quickly get your money back?

    I'm not aware of any other KS MMO project that makes it this simple to act on your buyers' remorse.
    Refunds are only available until they aren't.  If they run out of money, then there abruptly won't be any more refunds.
    Yes. Also if the sky falls then we're all fucked :)
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
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  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 40,938
    edited February 2020
    Iselin said:
    Quizzical said:
    Iselin said:
    One word: refunds.

    Why bitch about what they're doing if you can easily and quickly get your money back?

    I'm not aware of any other KS MMO project that makes it this simple to act on your buyers' remorse.
    Refunds are only available until they aren't.  If they run out of money, then there abruptly won't be any more refunds.
    Yes. Also if the sky falls then we're all fucked :)
    I think we're already all fucked, and have been for quite some time.

    It's no longer a question of when will CU deliver,  but rather perhaps they can't deliver on the promise regardless how much time and money is spent,  might just be beyond their technical capabilities. 
    cheebaRich84

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing ESO - Blackwood at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 17,558
    Kyleran said:
    Iselin said:
    Quizzical said:
    Iselin said:
    One word: refunds.

    Why bitch about what they're doing if you can easily and quickly get your money back?

    I'm not aware of any other KS MMO project that makes it this simple to act on your buyers' remorse.
    Refunds are only available until they aren't.  If they run out of money, then there abruptly won't be any more refunds.
    Yes. Also if the sky falls then we're all fucked :)
    I think we're already all fucked, and have been for quite some time.

    It's no longer a question of when will CU deliver,  but rather perhaps they can't deliver on the promise regardless how much time and money is spent,  might just be beyond their technical capabilities. 
    Oh ye of little faith!

    As a very interested non-backer (never backed any KS MMO and proud of it!) I hope that's not the case but if it is, oh well.

    Meanwhile... back to Grim Dawn for the evening. The @ultimateduck thread got me back into it and my 2HD lightning Shaman is just wrecking things :)
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 40,938
    Sovrath said:
    Kyleran said:
    So, they are running out of funds to complete CU, investors are getting restless, no launch date in sight, so they go to the Ashes of Creation playbook and develop a new game to sell,  based off of tester feedback even.

    Wonder if it will have a cash shop?

    Probably.

    Yeah, it's become just another indie shitshow like all of the rest.

    Changed my mind, I will be asking for a refund now, he broke a promise he made years ago.

    He was asked back when BRs were first getting hot, and CF mentioned marketing their engine if he was going to try and take advantage by selling his engine also.

    He said no, while he would like to, "it wouldn't be right" to work on another project while CU was so long overdue.

    It isn't right.

    I applauded his integrity back then...I'll be slagging on him going forward. 

     >:) 
    I think this quote sums things up nicely:

    WoLFpwrToday at 6:08 PM

    this sounds about right ! ---> dreztina: So a big fish investor jumped the line and got their game before the rest of us, i understand now

    WoLFpwrToday at 6:40 PM

    Collossus doesnt help CU , backers money made the engine happen now you are making a game with it for an investor ......................

    Well, if they need that investor's money and without it they tank then that investor's money does help Camelot Unchained.

    Unless you are just short sighted. If they go under then what's the point? And you lose your money anyhow.
    Also treading dangerously into sunk cost fallacy territory.

    ;)

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing ESO - Blackwood at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • jimmywolfjimmywolf Member UncommonPosts: 292
    never backed this game since i was burned on others but i find it amusing when in the past i would hear, " it better late and good, then rushed and crap. " so what about if their so late the game no longer matters? or worse is still crap and took 10+ years.


    not saying they're doing anything wrong, this probably the best case  scenario but hate blind optimisms, it just as bad as needless  pessimism.  still hope this game get released along with pantheon and other " new " MMO's  i do want the MMO world too expand, WoW was fun in the past and am happy FF14, ESO and GW2 are successful but hearing the new MMO's need more time/funding before they will leave alpha, kills the mood for me.




  • JeffSpicoli214JeffSpicoli214 Newbie CommonPosts: 11
    Just like Ashes of Creation and Pantheon.  I had high hopes for these games, but it is easy to see its vaporware.  The development teams are getting paid from the investments until the funds run dry and then poof, the doors close.  Then its on to the next ponzi scheme.
    bng28
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 15,485
    edited February 2020
    Kyleran said:
    If this was any other developer than Mark Jacobs, you'd be pissed.  He's got some kind of hold on a lot of people.  
    What he has is a Refund Policy.  Which is quite different from his peers.  You cannot go and get your money back from AoC because you hate APOC.  You can't get your money back from CoE because they have made a mockery of the game.  You can't get your money back from Crowfall because they switched from voxels.

    You can, and always have been able to, get your money back from CU.

    To me, that makes all the difference in the world. And for any that have understandably reached the end of their patience..  they can go get that refund with no hard feelings.

    And you sir, are putting your Harbinger membership at risk, refunds be damned, just build and deliver the game he promised.

    But he can't, because he's running out of funds and investor patience.
    Nah...  I have been really consistent on this.  I've called their development utterly incompetent multiple times but again... I can get my cash back if I want so to ME that makes all the difference. I also fully understand (as said in other posts) that this could be a deal breaker for others and absolutely do not blame anyone that goes and gets a refund.


    PS:  Why is there no MMORPG.COM article on this?  It's one of the few actual MMORPGs in development and it just had a huge news drop...   Nadda on here.
    Kylerangervaise1

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  • MightyUncleanMightyUnclean Member EpicPosts: 3,531
    You know what would have made this announcement a lot easier to stomach?  If they had simultaneously released some substantial new footage of CU showing real, tangible progress.  But they couldn't show us that, because it's not a reality.  Mark Jacobs isn't stupid.  He knew what the reaction to this news would be.  If there was anything to show us to make us feel better about the state of CU, he would have rolled that out with this "exciting news" that he hyped for weeks.  I'm beginning to suspect that @Kyleran has the right idea, and that the CU that was promised years ago is simply far beyond the capabilities of CSE to deliver, ever.
    Rich84gervaise1
  • meddyckmeddyck Member UncommonPosts: 1,282
    Iselin said:
    One word: refunds.

    Why bitch about what they're doing if you can easily and quickly get your money back?

    I'm not aware of any other KS MMO project that makes it this simple to act on your buyers' remorse.

    90 days is quickly? Okay.

    DAOC Live (inactive): R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R6 Healer

  • HatefullHatefull Member EpicPosts: 2,454
    *Yaaaaaawwwwwwnnnnnn* Oh wow jacobs screwed over several thousand people for money...who'd thunk it? At least you can get a refund, you can, but most won't.

    lol oh man, this will be hilarious to watch play out.

    If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

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  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 30,740
    edited February 2020
    Kyleran said:

    Normally you are level headed, but you clearly are heading into white knight territory if you can't acknowledge what is wrong with this move.

    The ivory tower awaits.

    Sorry man, normally you are clear headed yet speak your mind and now you are slightly delusional (And I'm telling you this in a brotherly way)

    There are some simple facts.

    1, There are no guarantees to crowd funded projects. Period. Not a one. There is no clause that normally gives you a full refund, no clause that says that if they can't deliver in x amount of time then the donors get anything. Nothing. That has to be recognized.

    2, Therefore, any money you put into any crowdfunded project is a gamble. If you expect anything, ANYTHING on time, as advertised, then you are naive. Not in an insulting way, just in a you really don't know enough about these projects to fully realize how they can go "tits up" way.

    You (royal you) have to accept this or else don't put in money. Why would you, except to say "good luck let's see if you can do it."

    As for this latest development; it's clear that they are running out of money. They spent a lot on that engine. So THAT'S where their work really shines. That engine.

    They can either go to their donors and say "yup, sorry, we messed up, we are folding" OR they can take what they have done and make the best of it and sell its features to others.

    This isn't white knighting. It's logic. It's "we have a project where we spent a LOT of time developing the engine and now we can't finish it so what do we do oh I KNOW we can make a game for an investor and recoup some money so we can finish the project.

    I don't get mad at ridiculous things where I know there was never a guarantee. Never. I don't rant or blame with crap like that.

    What would I get mad at? If they said "hey game is finished and we are just doing last minute polishing so kickstart some funds to get us to the finish line and THEN they say oops we never had a game.

    That would get me mad. As it's a bald faced lie. Still, whenever I've given money to these things I've kissed it good bye. done. It's over. I'll never see it again so let's see if I gave it in vane.

    So what are the choices?

    Get your money back or not because

    a, this game can't come to fruition and it folds or
    b, in order to get it done they need to use that engine they invested in.

    What will get you a game? Not having them do this for the investor and just putter along until they fold or use what they have to get more money?

    cheyane
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  • UtinniUtinni Member EpicPosts: 2,194
    This helped them secure extra funding and probably extra revenue in the future. Smart move.
    Sovrath
  • MightyUncleanMightyUnclean Member EpicPosts: 3,531
    Interesting wording from MJ in the comments on the MOP article.  Not a penny..."in 2019."  And this completely ignores the fact that the backer funding for CU is what allowed them to create the engine that Colossus uses to begin with.  I guess the real question is, was this a move made out of desperation because they were running out of funds for CU, or was this the intent all along?

    Mark Jacobs

    BB, they are not financing two games. I and the investors financed Colossus. Not a penny of money from the CU donation pool was spent on Colossus in 2019. I put in more of my money as did the investors.

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 15,485
    edited February 2020
    Interesting wording from MJ in the comments on the MOP article.  Not a penny..."in 2019."  And this completely ignores the fact that the backer funding for CU is what allowed them to create the engine that Colossus uses to begin with.  I guess the real question is, was this a move made out of desperation because they were running out of funds for CU, or was this the intent all along?

    Mark Jacobs

    BB, they are not financing two games. I and the investors financed Colossus. Not a penny of money from the CU donation pool was spent on Colossus in 2019. I put in more of my money as did the investors.

    Yeah MJ is a bit testy in that thread and should have bowed out long before.  It’s obvious that the CU money has been focused on engine development and Colossus (actually the real name is Final Stand: Ragnarok) is built on that engine.  Any Dev has to know that if you go on forums and start to call people trolls it won’t end well.  

    I think this is an example of the Ivory Tower.  Those folks that signed the NDA to test Colossus likely just told him how great this idea was... it seems like he was honestly surprised by the reaction.
    tweedledumb99

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  • tweedledumb99tweedledumb99 Member UncommonPosts: 290
    edited February 2020
    Two things I'm certain of:

    1) there's enough information to assess that CSE's move here is a really bad sign for CU.

    2) there's not enough information to assess that CSE's move here is a good sign for CU.

    That alone is bad.
    Kyleran
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 24,583
    I'm going to go out on a limb and make two predictions:

    1)  Both Colossus and Camelot Unchained will eventually launch.
    2)  Colossus will be a better game than Camelot Unchained.

    It's very possible that it is what Mark Jacobs said it is:  they realized that they could make a PVE game from about the same engine and a lot of the same assets as their PVP game, and it seemed like a cool enough game that they decided to do it.

    Of course, it's also possible that that's merely what he thinks it is, but it's actually a much worse case of feature creep than he realized and is going to mean that neither game ever amounts to much.
    jimmywolfSovrath
  • MightyUncleanMightyUnclean Member EpicPosts: 3,531
    Wow, MJ is on the Massively comments calling people trolls and in the official forums calling people liars.  I think the pressure and the realization of the state of things is getting to him.
    [Deleted User]Rich84meddyck
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