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The latest devblog. Forced PvP is gone.

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  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 9,723
    bcbully said:
    Nanfoodle said:
    bcbully said:
    Scot said:
    tzervo said:
    Scot said:

    Are we really calling BDO open world PvP? I can remember being attacked in some out of the way place a couple of times, but mostly it seemed to be a consensual guild tagged system. Doesn't EVE have safe zones?

    I am not putting out my stall for open world here, my preference is RvR, just not sure how open world PvP anything is today.
    There is frequent OWPVP in BDO in popular grind spots to contest them.

    EVE has a security system that inhibits PVP significantly in high sec areas but you can still get attacked by suicide gankers in high sec if your cargo is juicy enough or by war targets if you are at war with another corp.
    Well that's what I am getting at, is it really OWPvP? In BDO players restrict themselves to few areas where special resources can be plundered, here the mindset of the players seems to be creating a zoned form of PvP. In EVE from what you have said, a security system is reducing the PvP to a minimal activity in high sec.

    Now that's always going to happen, players are going to have reasons as to why they PvP in certain areas. But are players not now becoming self regulating, in the past it was almost like a free for all. And the security system you mentioned is saying to me if you can't be self regulating the game will become designed to regulate you.

    Have PvP players moved on, is this what they now want? As a RvR fan it seems logical to me that "open world" PvP evolves and is no longer so open world at all. But I am not sure actual OWPvP fans want so much structure, they seemed to favour at the most guilds regulating what was going on.
    In proper ffa pvp games with balanced risk and reward systems, cultures form. It’s a beautiful thing. This does not happen in you run of the mill WoW flag on/off pvp systems.
    It does not matter ffa pvp itself is dead. First 3 months the PvPers have a blast killing all the people trying to PvE. The next 3-6 months all the PvEers start quiting the game. At the end of the 7th month most PvPers get board and start to quit. Month 10 they merge all the servers and all the ffa PvPers realize they rather not hang out with each other. Month 12 the new ffa MMO closes its doors. 
    Sounds good, old trope, not true though. Nearly ALL mmorpg are 3/4 dead in 10 months. Especially the bad ones.

    Next time try to understand the topic and what I was saying.
    Like I said in my post, it does not matter. 

    1. NW will not be going back on their new direction. People paying money for the product they have promised.

    2. FFA MMOs that work are few, they are a niche corner of MMOs. Even PvPers like myself, would much rather a DAoC style open PvP game. Where PvP and PvE dont minx. When you feel like play either style of game play, you walk into it, knowing what ya get. 

    If you have something new to bring to the table, rehashing this thread thats about NW direction in dropping FFA PvP. Then make a thread that has a OP on what your thoughts are. Because whatever it is, your thoughts are buried somewhere in here. 
  • BrainyBrainy Member RarePosts: 1,103
    Iselin said:

    Actually they do exactly that in ESO with the need to run dungeons in veteran mode to get the mask and shoulders set you want for PvP unless you want to wait weeks for the Friday night PvP special vendor to have the mask and or shoulder piece you want. Or you can do without.

    And there is also a need for many builds to run the PvE solo raid, Maelstrom Arena, also in Veteran mode to get the weapon you need. Or you can do without.

    There is also a need in ESO for PvErs to do enough PvP to get some skills from the PvP-only skill lines that are very useful for high-end PvE dungeons and trials. Or you can do without.

    And you know what? PvX players just do it and don't bitch about it. All the whining about the mean developers forcing you to do stuff comes from the extremists... just like in this thread :)


    This seems like straight up bad game design to force people to do stuff they hate doing.

    What good reason could devs have to force PVPers to PVE for PVP items.  If you are a PVXer, then you should have no problem doing PVE for pve equipment.  Or doing PVP for pvp equipment,  why force styles to crossover?

    In fact alot of PVE hate even playing PVE with PVP types because many ruin the PVE experience.
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 17,534
    Brainy said:
    Iselin said:

    Actually they do exactly that in ESO with the need to run dungeons in veteran mode to get the mask and shoulders set you want for PvP unless you want to wait weeks for the Friday night PvP special vendor to have the mask and or shoulder piece you want. Or you can do without.

    And there is also a need for many builds to run the PvE solo raid, Maelstrom Arena, also in Veteran mode to get the weapon you need. Or you can do without.

    There is also a need in ESO for PvErs to do enough PvP to get some skills from the PvP-only skill lines that are very useful for high-end PvE dungeons and trials. Or you can do without.

    And you know what? PvX players just do it and don't bitch about it. All the whining about the mean developers forcing you to do stuff comes from the extremists... just like in this thread :)


    This seems like straight up bad game design to force people to do stuff they hate doing.

    What good reason could devs have to force PVPers to PVE for PVP items.  If you are a PVXer, then you should have no problem doing PVE for pve equipment.  Or doing PVP for pvp equipment,  why force styles to crossover?

    In fact alot of PVE hate even playing PVE with PVP types because many ruin the PVE experience.
    You must have misses the "or do without" part. No one is forcing anyone to do anything except in the gluttonous minds of some people that want it all but want it their way.

    As to why they did it? Probably because once upon a time the MMO gaming world was mostly PvXers. They need to get with the program and realize that preferences are now firmly entrenched and exclusively us vs. them :)
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  • xpsyncxpsync Member EpicPosts: 1,852
    edited July 2020
    Bloodaxes said:
    I tried enjoying ESO, but I honestly don't like weapon switching as form of getting additional skills. I like to stick to one thing whilst fighting. A shame really, as it has a lot of stuff to do.

    Spins on traditional mmorpg's are perfectly fine.

    I've for the longest time probably been the biggest hater of wow the world has ever known (4 f'ing up the mmorpg genre) Anyway here i am playing wow c/r and ofc SWG:L. Although i bought all expansions to date, been at every launch to date, my kids like it so i enjoyed their enjoyment, not one to imprint my thoughts on them.

    I fell in love with EQ2, that model, that structure, that formula, that type of world and wow was 100% an easy fisher price copy of that.

    I have to say if i had not met some extremely cool peeps in classic, i doubt i'd be this much into retail. It was hard to let go all the resentment (i guess, don't know how else to describe it) go, but over months and months i'm taking it for what it is and it's a decent enough facsimile of EQ2 and now that i'm past all that, i'm hooked and enjoying the living shit outta the game.

    Ultimately it just feels so damn good to have a couple mmorpg's again and just stick with them. When you're in the wow sphere it has one of the strongest and loyal communities i think any game has, real decent peeps, which is kinda surprising tbh, but nice!
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  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 3,097
    Bloodaxes said:
     
    New world changed it to a flagging system due to griefers and PVP players are complaining.

    Yep, as usual, PvP players did that to themselves.

    If you didn't have a significant amount of them "roleplaying" psychopathic killers, the problem wouldn't exist.

    If you really like PvP, and I mean real PvP with a reason like me, not mindless ganking/griefing and generally being an ass to others specially if they are defenseless, you should realize that the originators of this change (and many changes in previous games) are the PKers themselve. You even have guilds going specifically to new PvP enabled games to ruin them.

    But do you think NW is going to offer such meaningful pvp? It seems to me they have gone from one extreme (full-loot owpvp) to basically stripping out all pvp. In both cases they have taken what seems to be a really old-school and outdated approach to incorporating pvp into the game.
    ....
  • Sid_ViciousSid_Vicious Member RarePosts: 2,174
    That really sucks! What a bunch of sell-outs : P 

    PVP is what makes the rush of the launch fun... without it, why bother rushing anything?
    ultimateduck

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  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    edited July 2020
    I noticed a few are still a bit confused.
    The dev leads state that BOTH PVP and PVE will get you the best items in the game.
    Those two areas alone are NOT the be all end all,crafting will be very important in this game.Example a Jeweler and gems.

    If you know me i would love to tell people this is a god awful game design but imo they are doing about as good a job as you can trying to mix pvp and pve in the same game.BTW i still will not play the game,it doesn't offer what  i want from a game that i can't already do elsewhere.

    Now the team states there will be some perks and bonus xp to pvp'ing but i have yet to see any indication it will be such a benefit that PVE players will be crying foul.

    Now the PVP design might not favor those who only enjoy pvp because it will be in the form of sieges and not likely much pvp anywhere else.

    Pve players will have it the best because they can do their regular WOWish type gaming,hit the instances "Arena" for the best loot,roam freely around except for the pvp zone that is under siege.However i do NOT see much gaming period aside from Sieges and Pve Arena's.

    Crafting is done to support both pve and pvp but doesn't really carry any other value that i know of.You either try to craft stuff to better your gear or to better your Fort defenses.

    I feel the game lacks the OPEN feeling,your main target areas of game play are BOTH instances and not open world.Arena is instanced and the Siege is a blocked off zone only open to the 50 players each,so again similar to an instance.


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  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    So is this what PVE players want?TO run Arena's 24/7?I guess building a house will be a nice touch.

    Are PVP players happy to just do the Siege runs?

    How else are you going to do it?A game i know very well Atlas was the most aggressive pvp game ever made,the most risk ever and it simply failed.
    Pvp players are a funny lot,they can talk the talk but in the end when they start losing they make excuses,the game SUCKS etc etc.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • BloodaxesBloodaxes Member EpicPosts: 4,662
    edited July 2020
    Wizardry said:
    So is this what PVE players want?TO run Arena's 24/7?I guess building a house will be a nice touch.

    Are PVP players happy to just do the Siege runs?

    How else are you going to do it?A game i know very well Atlas was the most aggressive pvp game ever made,the most risk ever and it simply failed.
    Pvp players are a funny lot,they can talk the talk but in the end when they start losing they make excuses,the game SUCKS etc etc.
    I'm sure everyone here can attest that no, it's not. It is however a good step to accommodate both play styles. With that said, from all the talks not only on this thread but in general, many keep saying there's not much content sadly.

    As for me, a PVE player? I want a world to explore at my leisure with dungeons, bosses, rare loot etc etc and pvp only when I feel like it. However, two pvp features I didn't mind in certain mmos where:

    1. Aion's rift invasion. The map is not open world pvp until the opposing faction enters a rift which is a type of event I believe. Everyone is alerted that a rift has been activated and you could stay or leave until the rift is closed. This however requires restrictions so that higher levels don't go in low level areas to show their epeen. Perhaps scaling could be a solution there.
    2. Archeage war system. Even though archeage maps that had this where open pvp, it could be modified so that in non pvp maps, if certain world pvp events are met, for a certain time, pvp can happen in said zone. I'd be fine with that. 
    YashaX

  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,211
    edited July 2020
    Well, without PvP this game seems pointless to me. It will be one more singleplayer MMO in the line. As it is about competition and cooperation. Remove the competition, and there is not need of cooperation. So multiplayer activities become pointless. And I doubt players play MMOs to make alone quests and to grind. To remove the "forced" PvP means, if you want to complete, I can simply ignore you and vice versa. And at some moment the players will ask themselves why they grind if there will not be competition. And then the game is over. Most will return to LoL, Fortnite, Mordhau and etc. Over and over again the developers of a MMORPG fail with the task of open world.

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 17,534
    Iselin said:
    Bloodaxes said:
    Also, I'm sure there is plenty of debacle on that system even from PVPers who don't want to do PVE stuff so let's not forget that it's both ways.


    Yup for sure which I find hilarious since ESO is one of the few games where you can level very comfortably exclusively in PvP so the need for those who just want to be in Cyrodiil all the time to step out is very low compared to most other games. But I find wanting that 10% of the game landscape where the PvP happens to have no-PvP instances even funnier in a game that is so PvE centric.

    I think both are just suffering from PvX envy because we have it all and they don't :)

    I have the Explorer title on all my characters in ESO, this implies staying quite a bit in Cyrodiil and even sneaking into the enemy bases, and I only got killed twice by other players doing so. Cyrodiil is HUGE. The chances to meet others are small if you play smart and do those objectives outside of the rush hours. It's even easier with decent stealth gear, since all classes can stealth in that game.
    Yes I know. As far as PvP zones go, Cyrodiil is probably one of the safest in any MMO for someone who wants to avoid conflict, not only because of its size but because, as you say, they cleverly gave everyone the ability to stealth by just crouching and walking crouched.

    Hell you don't even have to be in the real Cyrodiil, just the noobie tutorial area to get some benefit from it. Just completing the tutorial gets you 3 skill points which are very handy at level 10 and you level up the PvP-only skill lines enough by doing that to be able to acquire the 30 second speed buff skill that lets you zoom around like crazy in PvE as well whether running or mounted.

    Yet there are still many who have never set foot in Cyrodiil and won't. IMO that's just an unreasonable level of aversion to PvP.
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  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 7,256
    edited July 2020
    You cannot avoid PvP in newer games these days so just play within your acceptable parameters. If the game insists on putting you in positions where you're uncomfortable and insufficient protections are afforded from griefing...walk away and watch for updates and improvements. If none come, scratch the game off your list, no loss there. Chances are the game will become lowly populated if your comfort zones are being breached you're not the only one feeling this way.

    Since the explosion of this genre with the help of that juggernaut WoW developers aren't happy with a slice of the pie they want the whole damn pie. So rest assured games that don't do well, will close down. Just make sure you don't support any game that is half assing anything. New World is half assing .

  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,211
    kitarad said:
    Iselin said:
    kitarad said:
    No one saw my post or answered my question. :/

    Why are games like Fortnite or PUBG so popular? Full loot PvP works so do you lose a lot in Fortnite or PUBG and can you get back up fast was my question. I've never played them so have no idea so I am curious and my opinion is that games where you tend to lose a lot of time or gear when full loot PvP is in force will not be successful and wish to know if I am right about these two games.

    I am aware that you may lose a fortune in EVE but I also read that type of sting takes very long to set up. I also hear people don't fly what you cannot afford to lose leading me to believe people play very carefully. That was the same in Everquest you played carefully there too and could lose everything if you're not careful in it's early days albeit it was a PvE game.
    For the same reason shooters have been popular for 20 years +: casual 10 minute matches with disposable characters. It has always been a whole different PvP genre with 0 attachment to your character.

    Shooters are a whole different type of game that have no business being discussed in the same thread as RPGs and MMORPGs that are all about character development and attachment to that character.
    You say that but posters like @bcbully and @ikcin keep telling us how the popularity of those games are evidence that FFA full loot PvP is what the masses love and those of us who enjoy MMORPGs don't understand this. We here in this forum are the deluded ones that continue with our mistaken belief and we are simply too stupid to see where the genre is going.

    I think MMORPGs that take a long time to develop your character don't enjoy losing their gear and loot especially when getting them back take months of work. Hence why I tried to ask about Fortnite and PUBG to argue why that system will not fair well for an MMORPG where character development and gear are king.

    I am also at a very big loss why people always argue that PvP and PvE servers just make the PvP servers less popular. When WoW classic opened there were far more PvP servers than PvE servers although many did end up requesting for transfers out of the PvP servers they were getting ganked in. Another untruth revealed by what happened in WoW.

    These developers here did specifically say they are not going to devote the resources to PvP and PvE servers. That is however a different issue but the games that can create both types of servers do benefit from appealing to both types of players. Even DAoC had PvE servers like Gaheris.

    I simply cannot fathom why opt in and out is such an anathema to PvPers.
    Most people do not like the full loot. Also many people do not like the FFA PvP. But you are missing the point. The question is how the game will become better? It is not what people like. Many people play and pay for ridiculously ugly and bad games. So by your logic, let make all the games bad and ugly.

    It is far more complicated than your subjective feelings about some feature in some game.

    People play MMOs for competition and cooperation. As all the other stuff exists in the offline singleplayer games. The problem is that the different people differentiate in their competitiveness and cooperativeness. But that does not mean that by removing the need of cooperation or the competition the game will be better. Quite the opposite. It will become pointless. 

    And the competition have to be forced or most people will not compete, as they are more afraid to lose than willing to win. 
  • BlackAdder77BlackAdder77 Member UncommonPosts: 40
    Lets be honest here. 99% of you all wanting full loot unrestricted PvP would get camped by a naked zerg of 5 allied guilds 5 meters in front of an outpost. Then y'all would cry on the forums for devs to make a change. I am guessing that's what happened at the closed alpha anyway.
    Anyone remember Darkfall Online? Nothing like a naked zerg killing you and taking all your gear with 0 consequences.
    Can any of you guess when PvP started working in no-safe-zone full loot PvP games?
    When the majority left said games.(I.E when the zergfest was not possible anymore)
  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 7,256
    edited July 2020
    ikcin said:
    kitarad said:
    Iselin said:
    kitarad said:
    No one saw my post or answered my question. :/

    Why are games like Fortnite or PUBG so popular? Full loot PvP works so do you lose a lot in Fortnite or PUBG and can you get back up fast was my question. I've never played them so have no idea so I am curious and my opinion is that games where you tend to lose a lot of time or gear when full loot PvP is in force will not be successful and wish to know if I am right about these two games.

    I am aware that you may lose a fortune in EVE but I also read that type of sting takes very long to set up. I also hear people don't fly what you cannot afford to lose leading me to believe people play very carefully. That was the same in Everquest you played carefully there too and could lose everything if you're not careful in it's early days albeit it was a PvE game.
    For the same reason shooters have been popular for 20 years +: casual 10 minute matches with disposable characters. It has always been a whole different PvP genre with 0 attachment to your character.

    Shooters are a whole different type of game that have no business being discussed in the same thread as RPGs and MMORPGs that are all about character development and attachment to that character.
    You say that but posters like @bcbully and @ikcin keep telling us how the popularity of those games are evidence that FFA full loot PvP is what the masses love and those of us who enjoy MMORPGs don't understand this. We here in this forum are the deluded ones that continue with our mistaken belief and we are simply too stupid to see where the genre is going.

    I think MMORPGs that take a long time to develop your character don't enjoy losing their gear and loot especially when getting them back take months of work. Hence why I tried to ask about Fortnite and PUBG to argue why that system will not fair well for an MMORPG where character development and gear are king.

    I am also at a very big loss why people always argue that PvP and PvE servers just make the PvP servers less popular. When WoW classic opened there were far more PvP servers than PvE servers although many did end up requesting for transfers out of the PvP servers they were getting ganked in. Another untruth revealed by what happened in WoW.

    These developers here did specifically say they are not going to devote the resources to PvP and PvE servers. That is however a different issue but the games that can create both types of servers do benefit from appealing to both types of players. Even DAoC had PvE servers like Gaheris.

    I simply cannot fathom why opt in and out is such an anathema to PvPers.
    Most people do not like the full loot. Also many people do not like the FFA PvP. But you are missing the point. 

    People play MMOs for competition and cooperation. 

    And the competition have to be forced or most people will not compete, as they are more afraid to lose than willing to win. 
    ( Sorry I chomped off bits of your post but in the interest of making my point here you go...)

    Speaks volumes when an advocate acknowledges the problems but barrels on in the name of making the game better. My question is 'for whom' are you making it better. Certainly not for me. 

    I have a lot of games I can play. Currently playing hours and hours in Phantasy Star Online 2. Enjoying playing with others and cooperating. Don't see the need to play your idea of a better game.
    YashaX

  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 3,097
    Rhoklaw said:
    kitarad said:
    ikcin said:
    kitarad said:
    Iselin said:
    kitarad said:
    No one saw my post or answered my question. :/

    Why are games like Fortnite or PUBG so popular? Full loot PvP works so do you lose a lot in Fortnite or PUBG and can you get back up fast was my question. I've never played them so have no idea so I am curious and my opinion is that games where you tend to lose a lot of time or gear when full loot PvP is in force will not be successful and wish to know if I am right about these two games.

    I am aware that you may lose a fortune in EVE but I also read that type of sting takes very long to set up. I also hear people don't fly what you cannot afford to lose leading me to believe people play very carefully. That was the same in Everquest you played carefully there too and could lose everything if you're not careful in it's early days albeit it was a PvE game.
    For the same reason shooters have been popular for 20 years +: casual 10 minute matches with disposable characters. It has always been a whole different PvP genre with 0 attachment to your character.

    Shooters are a whole different type of game that have no business being discussed in the same thread as RPGs and MMORPGs that are all about character development and attachment to that character.
    You say that but posters like @bcbully and @ikcin keep telling us how the popularity of those games are evidence that FFA full loot PvP is what the masses love and those of us who enjoy MMORPGs don't understand this. We here in this forum are the deluded ones that continue with our mistaken belief and we are simply too stupid to see where the genre is going.

    I think MMORPGs that take a long time to develop your character don't enjoy losing their gear and loot especially when getting them back take months of work. Hence why I tried to ask about Fortnite and PUBG to argue why that system will not fair well for an MMORPG where character development and gear are king.

    I am also at a very big loss why people always argue that PvP and PvE servers just make the PvP servers less popular. When WoW classic opened there were far more PvP servers than PvE servers although many did end up requesting for transfers out of the PvP servers they were getting ganked in. Another untruth revealed by what happened in WoW.

    These developers here did specifically say they are not going to devote the resources to PvP and PvE servers. That is however a different issue but the games that can create both types of servers do benefit from appealing to both types of players. Even DAoC had PvE servers like Gaheris.

    I simply cannot fathom why opt in and out is such an anathema to PvPers.
    Most people do not like the full loot. Also many people do not like the FFA PvP. But you are missing the point. 

    People play MMOs for competition and cooperation. 

    And the competition have to be forced or most people will not compete, as they are more afraid to lose than willing to win. 
    ( Sorry I chomped off bits of your post but in the interest of making my point here you go...)

    Speaks volumes when an advocate acknowledges the problems but barrels on in the name of making the game better. My question is 'for whom' are you making it better. Certainly not for me. 

    I have a lot of games I can play. Currently playing hours and hours in Phantasy Star Online 2. Enjoying playing with others and cooperating. Don't see the need to play your idea of a better game.
    This is why I feel Arenas and Battlegrounds or a "separate" area like we find in games like GW2, ESO, DAoC and so on should be sufficient. There is ZERO point in FFA or Full Loot PvP in any MMORPG. None.

    I personally dislike arenas like you can find in WoW, I call that "PvP in a bowl" and find it very boring. I rather play games like Overwatch for that kind of thrill. BGs are fun when properly designed though.
    Cyrodiil in ESO isn't exactly a BG though, it's a PvP zone just like you had frontiers in DAoC.

    And for FFA PvP to work, there need to be VERY harsh consequences for being a serial killer, and also a cheat proof system to detect it. Don't make serial killing impossible, but make the offender's life so hard that they will think twice before ruining their character for a long, long time.
    There should also be a big difference between conquering or protecting resources, wars between guilds, and going to a newbie zone to kill just because you can (specially if it's your own faction newbie zone !).
    Then yes, FFA PvP could work. But it requires a developer with some balls and a brain.
    Especially in a game that has distinct factions, I really don't think you should be able to kill people in your own faction. 
    kitarad
    ....
  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,211
    In any game you should not be able to kill people :) But you are de facto against open world sandbox games. So you are against the games driven by the players. 

    While I believe the best design for a MMORPG is the open world. 

    Also FFA PvP with PK penalty is not FFA anymore.  It is an absurd situation where the action is allowed, but penalized.

    Anyway we cannot reach an agreement. Personally I know few dozens of people who preordered the NW. And now they sorry as, I will quote: The PvP is shit, and the game is very beautiful, but completely pointless.
  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 3,097
    ikcin said:
    In any game you should not be able to kill people :) But you are de facto against open world sandbox games. So you are against the games driven by the players. 

    While I believe the best design for a MMORPG is the open world. 

    Also FFA PvP with PK penalty is not FFA anymore.  It is an absurd situation where the action is allowed, but penalized.

    Anyway we cannot reach an agreement. Personally I know few dozens of people who preordered the NW. And now they sorry as, I will quote: The PvP is shit, and the game is very beautiful, but completely pointless.


    Yes I think it is important to not lump "pvp" into one barrel. Obviously the spectrum of pvp ranges from people like you who think freedom to just murder anyone with no penalty or restrictions is good game play, all the way to people who think pvp is only good in a completely balanced and controlled environment.

     
    bcbully
    ....
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 8,914
    Rhoklaw said:
    kitarad said:
    ikcin said:
    kitarad said:
    Iselin said:
    kitarad said:
    No one saw my post or answered my question. :/

    Why are games like Fortnite or PUBG so popular? Full loot PvP works so do you lose a lot in Fortnite or PUBG and can you get back up fast was my question. I've never played them so have no idea so I am curious and my opinion is that games where you tend to lose a lot of time or gear when full loot PvP is in force will not be successful and wish to know if I am right about these two games.

    I am aware that you may lose a fortune in EVE but I also read that type of sting takes very long to set up. I also hear people don't fly what you cannot afford to lose leading me to believe people play very carefully. That was the same in Everquest you played carefully there too and could lose everything if you're not careful in it's early days albeit it was a PvE game.
    For the same reason shooters have been popular for 20 years +: casual 10 minute matches with disposable characters. It has always been a whole different PvP genre with 0 attachment to your character.

    Shooters are a whole different type of game that have no business being discussed in the same thread as RPGs and MMORPGs that are all about character development and attachment to that character.
    You say that but posters like @bcbully and @ikcin keep telling us how the popularity of those games are evidence that FFA full loot PvP is what the masses love and those of us who enjoy MMORPGs don't understand this. We here in this forum are the deluded ones that continue with our mistaken belief and we are simply too stupid to see where the genre is going.

    I think MMORPGs that take a long time to develop your character don't enjoy losing their gear and loot especially when getting them back take months of work. Hence why I tried to ask about Fortnite and PUBG to argue why that system will not fair well for an MMORPG where character development and gear are king.

    I am also at a very big loss why people always argue that PvP and PvE servers just make the PvP servers less popular. When WoW classic opened there were far more PvP servers than PvE servers although many did end up requesting for transfers out of the PvP servers they were getting ganked in. Another untruth revealed by what happened in WoW.

    These developers here did specifically say they are not going to devote the resources to PvP and PvE servers. That is however a different issue but the games that can create both types of servers do benefit from appealing to both types of players. Even DAoC had PvE servers like Gaheris.

    I simply cannot fathom why opt in and out is such an anathema to PvPers.
    Most people do not like the full loot. Also many people do not like the FFA PvP. But you are missing the point. 

    People play MMOs for competition and cooperation. 

    And the competition have to be forced or most people will not compete, as they are more afraid to lose than willing to win. 
    ( Sorry I chomped off bits of your post but in the interest of making my point here you go...)

    Speaks volumes when an advocate acknowledges the problems but barrels on in the name of making the game better. My question is 'for whom' are you making it better. Certainly not for me. 

    I have a lot of games I can play. Currently playing hours and hours in Phantasy Star Online 2. Enjoying playing with others and cooperating. Don't see the need to play your idea of a better game.
    This is why I feel Arenas and Battlegrounds or a "separate" area like we find in games like GW2, ESO, DAoC and so on should be sufficient. There is ZERO point in FFA or Full Loot PvP in any MMORPG. None.

    I personally dislike arenas like you can find in WoW, I call that "PvP in a bowl" and find it very boring. I rather play games like Overwatch for that kind of thrill. BGs are fun when properly designed though.
    Cyrodiil in ESO isn't exactly a BG though, it's a PvP zone just like you had frontiers in DAoC.

    And for FFA PvP to work, there need to be VERY harsh consequences for being a serial killer, and also a cheat proof system to detect it. Don't make serial killing impossible, but make the offender's life so hard that they will think twice before ruining their character for a long, long time.
    There should also be a big difference between conquering or protecting resources, wars between guilds, and going to a newbie zone to kill just because you can (specially if it's your own faction newbie zone !).
    Then yes, FFA PvP could work. But it requires a developer with some balls and a brain.

    Cyrodill is just a large BG ,  Frontiers dwarfs Cyrodill its not even close
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 17,534
    edited July 2020
    Scorchien said:

    Cyrodill is just a large BG ,  Frontiers dwarfs Cyrodill its not even close
    You have a weird definition of BGs if you think Cyrodiil is one. 24/7 365 day a year persistent zones are not BGs.

    The only thing that resets in Cyrodiil be it monthly or weekly, depending on which campaign, is the leader boards. Even when that resets none of the keep ownership nor anything else in the zone resets. It carries on being persistent.
    YashaX
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 8,914
    edited July 2020
    Iselin said:
    Scorchien said:

    Cyrodill is just a large BG ,  Frontiers dwarfs Cyrodill its not even close
    You have a weird definition of BGs if you think Cyrodiil is one. 24/7 365 day a year persistent zones are not BGs.

    The only thing that resets in Cyrodiil be it monthly or weekly, depending on which campaign, is the leader boards. Even when that resets none of the keep ownership nor anything else in the zone resets. It carries on being persistent.

    There is nothing persistent about Cyrodill outside that zone .. And the reference was to size ..

     Size does matter .. and Cyrodill is very small compared to Frontiers , you can cross Cyrodill in about 9 minutes (correction) on fully trained mount ..
    Post edited by Scorchien on
  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 7,671
    I wonder what kind of game this will morph into next, given that the game has already done a 180 since last year. They get another 6-9 months to change the game into a moba or something I guess.
    YashaX
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    As some mentioned,pvp players often talk the talk but don't walk the walk.
    Atlas was intense pvp as it happens in any game and after the dust settled all those in favor were crying foul.
    They din't like losing days,weeks,months of very hard work just to start all over again,i saw it and it is FACT.

    Unlike this game Atlas only offered safe islands but anywhere else it was open season and you had to cross paths at some point or stay on one safe island the entire game.

    This game also has a much smaller grind to get to the pvp point.IDK if somewhere in between keeps pvp players happy but i doubt it,they don't even know what they want.

    What i have witnessed year after year is pvp players are all gung ho as long as they are winning.This is also proven how many years we keep seeing cheat after cheat after cheat,players HATE to lose.

    So back to this game,way less grind,so way less is lost in pvp,also has pve but somehow it is still not good enough?Pvp has been around forever,it appears that the FAST easy in easy out with no loss is what pvp players really want>>Fortnite,Valorant etc etc.Those two games have literally the most shallow game play you i can get,yet they are the two biggest pvp success stories right now.Before that it was PUBG,same shallow game play,know what other  game does the same thing>>>CS GO,also a long time success.

    So pvp players do not want anything complicated,they do not want anything that takes longer than a few minutes to get engaged,they do not want ANY risk at all.So good luck getting anything more than a BR/shooter to meet the demands of pvp players.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    edited July 2020
    You and i both know this game is going to see early success,a FAST paced rush,2 months later it will be dead.This is why i give this team credit for recognizing yet another fail.

    So hopefully they can do enough to keep enough players happy long term.

    Know what wouldn't surprise me one bit?They end up dividing the game,a PVE server and a pvp server and change the rules  for pvp to open pvp.I actually hope it happens because it will prove a lot about hardcore pvp players.
    IMO i would 100% can the pvp or give them their own server,turn the other into pve with the exact same content but make the npc invasions way more frequent both open world and on forts.
    The problem is how to divvy the forts among a pve design.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,211
    edited July 2020
    YashaX said:
    ikcin said:
    In any game you should not be able to kill people :) But you are de facto against open world sandbox games. So you are against the games driven by the players. 

    While I believe the best design for a MMORPG is the open world. 

    Also FFA PvP with PK penalty is not FFA anymore.  It is an absurd situation where the action is allowed, but penalized.

    Anyway we cannot reach an agreement. Personally I know few dozens of people who preordered the NW. And now they sorry as, I will quote: The PvP is shit, and the game is very beautiful, but completely pointless.


    Yes I think it is important to not lump "pvp" into one barrel. Obviously the spectrum of pvp ranges from people like you who think freedom to just murder anyone with no penalty or restrictions is good game play, all the way to people who think pvp is only good in a completely balanced and controlled environment.

     
    Please do not troll, and do not put words in my mouth. First I do not thinк there is killing - PvP is competition, and there are winners and losers. And like any competition, the losers should be much more. That is how the competitions work. 

    Although the competition should be fair. So fair rules for all. I think the players who compete should not be penalized.  

    At the same time there are noobs and bad players. And the game should provide content for them. 

    So I strongly support the design with areas, that provide different risk/reward ratios. 

    And for OW FFA PvP, just forget about things from singleplayer games like levels, NPC quests and etc. Also the OW needs very good integration of the PvP and the PvE. The players have to PvP for PvE, and to PvE for PvP. It is much more easier to make a singleplayer themepark game with many players on the map and few safe multiplayer activities. 
    YashaX
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