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The latest devblog. Forced PvP is gone.

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  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 2,553
    edited July 7
    Brainy said:
    PVP in MMO's will never work in OWPVP.   It relies on PVE'ers to be farmed.  In PVE the AI can die 1000's or infinite times and never complain. 

    But for PVP to have 1000 kills requires someone to be killed 1000 times.   If you look at the bell curve, where top tier hunters rarely die, that means low tier have to almost always die "Deer".  PVE'ers dont want to be farmed.  Those "Deer" will just leave.  Then you have the mid range people that are the new farmed tier, who will now have no "Deer" to shoot, and are being farmed by the top,  then the Mid range PVPers leave.  That leaves the top hunters to fight each other, and they will just quit, because they dont want to die alot.

    Top Tier PVPers dont fight eachother much in MMO's because there is not a big enough incentive for them to do so.  They want to farm people.  These MMO's rely on PVE'ers and low skill PVPers to be farmed and try to draw them into their MMO's with massive incentives in PVP areas.

    Until these MMO's figure out a way to allow all skilled ranges of players to enjoy PVP and not just top tier, they will continue to fail.
    Complete crap. I personally don't like open-world free for all pvp games with player looting. But it is just plain stupid to go into that sort of a game and then complain about it. And it is absolute ignorant rubbish to claim that these sort of games rely on pve players to "farm". 

    Games like Albion put good resources in pvp areas to encourage players to fight over them. It is a catalyst for pvp, in a game that has a playerbase that went into the game wanting a full-loot pvp experience. 

     
    IselintzervoIronside81
    ....
  • RhoklawRhoklaw Member EpicPosts: 7,021
    YashaX said:
    Brainy said:
    PVP in MMO's will never work in OWPVP.   It relies on PVE'ers to be farmed.  In PVE the AI can die 1000's or infinite times and never complain. 

    But for PVP to have 1000 kills requires someone to be killed 1000 times.   If you look at the bell curve, where top tier hunters rarely die, that means low tier have to almost always die "Deer".  PVE'ers dont want to be farmed.  Those "Deer" will just leave.  Then you have the mid range people that are the new farmed tier, who will now have no "Deer" to shoot, and are being farmed by the top,  then the Mid range PVPers leave.  That leaves the top hunters to fight each other, and they will just quit, because they dont want to die alot.

    Top Tier PVPers dont fight eachother much in MMO's because there is not a big enough incentive for them to do so.  They want to farm people.  These MMO's rely on PVE'ers and low skill PVPers to be farmed and try to draw them into their MMO's with massive incentives in PVP areas.

    Until these MMO's figure out a way to allow all skilled ranges of players to enjoy PVP and not just top tier, they will continue to fail.
    Complete crap. I personally don't like open-world free for all pvp games with player looting. But it is just plain stupid to go into that sort of a game and then complain about it. And it is absolute ignorant rubbish to claim that these sort of games rely on pve players to "farm". 

    Games like Albion put good resources in pvp areas to encourage players to fight over them. It is a catalyst for pvp, in a game that has a playerbase that went into the game wanting a full-loot pvp experience. 

     
    Again, forced PvP is also rubbish. A game speaks for itself when you HAVE to put incentives in PvP areas just to make a PvP game enjoyable. Why is that? If people enjoy PvP so much, why do you need incentives?

    Any MMORPG with PvP has to make a choice. Either PvP is optional, which pisses off PvP players because like every PvE player has explained 1,000,000 times, yet PvP players ignore, that PvP players DO NOT enjoy fighting other PvP players. Is this blatant fact not obvious enough? When you give players the choice to PvP or not to, how is that bad game design? It's not. Forcing people to PvP is bad game design, PERIOD.
    Mendel

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,642
    They seriously did pretty much outright copy Atlas's structure but used some different terminology.
    There is a LOT of hit n miss,like a LOT.

    So they claim you can only be attacked if you have your pvp flag up,so pve players will not be ganked as many worry about.

    They put a heavy restriction on learning trees to a max of 60 points,again same as Atlas only with fewer points.

    rinse and repeat over and over mission runs to declare war.Once war is declared a random faction  of the 2 will get to do the siege,the other can ummm go grab a snack lol.So one faction will be doing those missions basically for nothing.

    I assume they are giving rewards to the pvp players because of obvious reasons.If some players are busy with sieges they would fall way behind the PVE players in advancement.

    So what did they do for PVE players,well more than i assumed.You will need to get a drop "a KEY"that allows you to enter "arenas"where you can get apparently "some of the top loot in the game".Amazon was careful to use the term >>>SOME.

    The problem areas in the design?

    Once a faction is declared the attacker ,the governor  picks the 50 players that get to take part and a handshake for participation to the rest lol.

    Will there be enough of these "arenas"to appease PVE players?

    How many are going to get angry when they run the missions and their faction gets left out?How many will get angry when they do those mission runs only find out they are not among the 50 picked?




    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,642
    edited July 7
    I should have mentioned that FACTIONS "3 of them"unless they add more is what ANY player can join.There is a governor "leader"but anyone can join these.

    IMO 3 is not nearly enough and i stated this like 20 years ago already.

    You can have your own individual housing "restrictions on that aspect,i have no idea".You will have to pay taxes to the owner of that zone.

    There will obviously be strife within the factions and you can organize to overthrow the leader,how exactly idk.Reason is you might get for example The Syndicate voting in their player to lead the faction then that leader picks the same 50 Syndicate players to take part everytime leaving all others in the faction hung  out to dry.

    I feel like the way it is structured,you might see a few large real life guilds,like th Syndicate control the game,leaving all others with participation medals.
    This is why a game like this needs at minimum 20+ factions but of course they don't want to make gear for 20 different factions.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 10,146
    Brainy said:
    PVP in MMO's will never work in OWPVP.   It relies on PVE'ers to be farmed.  In PVE the AI can die 1000's or infinite times and never complain. 

    But for PVP to have 1000 kills requires someone to be killed 1000 times.   If you look at the bell curve, where top tier hunters rarely die, that means low tier have to almost always die "Deer".  PVE'ers dont want to be farmed.  Those "Deer" will just leave.  Then you have the mid range people that are the new farmed tier, who will now have no "Deer" to shoot, and are being farmed by the top,  then the Mid range PVPers leave.  That leaves the top hunters to fight each other, and they will just quit, because they dont want to die alot.

    Top Tier PVPers dont fight eachother much in MMO's because there is not a big enough incentive for them to do so.  They want to farm people.  These MMO's rely on PVE'ers and low skill PVPers to be farmed and try to draw them into their MMO's with massive incentives in PVP areas.

    Until these MMO's figure out a way to allow all skilled ranges of players to enjoy PVP and not just top tier, they will continue to fail.
    Do you really believe what you just wrote... smh

    UO ptsd I bet.
    YashaXtzervo
  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 2,553
    Rhoklaw said:
    YashaX said:
    Brainy said:
    PVP in MMO's will never work in OWPVP.   It relies on PVE'ers to be farmed.  In PVE the AI can die 1000's or infinite times and never complain. 

    But for PVP to have 1000 kills requires someone to be killed 1000 times.   If you look at the bell curve, where top tier hunters rarely die, that means low tier have to almost always die "Deer".  PVE'ers dont want to be farmed.  Those "Deer" will just leave.  Then you have the mid range people that are the new farmed tier, who will now have no "Deer" to shoot, and are being farmed by the top,  then the Mid range PVPers leave.  That leaves the top hunters to fight each other, and they will just quit, because they dont want to die alot.

    Top Tier PVPers dont fight eachother much in MMO's because there is not a big enough incentive for them to do so.  They want to farm people.  These MMO's rely on PVE'ers and low skill PVPers to be farmed and try to draw them into their MMO's with massive incentives in PVP areas.

    Until these MMO's figure out a way to allow all skilled ranges of players to enjoy PVP and not just top tier, they will continue to fail.
    Complete crap. I personally don't like open-world free for all pvp games with player looting. But it is just plain stupid to go into that sort of a game and then complain about it. And it is absolute ignorant rubbish to claim that these sort of games rely on pve players to "farm". 

    Games like Albion put good resources in pvp areas to encourage players to fight over them. It is a catalyst for pvp, in a game that has a playerbase that went into the game wanting a full-loot pvp experience. 

     
    Again, forced PvP is also rubbish. A game speaks for itself when you HAVE to put incentives in PvP areas just to make a PvP game enjoyable. Why is that? If people enjoy PvP so much, why do you need incentives?

    Any MMORPG with PvP has to make a choice. Either PvP is optional, which pisses off PvP players because like every PvE player has explained 1,000,000 times, yet PvP players ignore, that PvP players DO NOT enjoy fighting other PvP players. Is this blatant fact not obvious enough? When you give players the choice to PvP or not to, how is that bad game design? It's not. Forcing people to PvP is bad game design, PERIOD.
    What on Earth are you talking about? Your comment has nothing to do with my post.




    Iselintzervobcbully
    ....
  • ringdanyringdany Member UncommonPosts: 133
    Just saw this discussion---  I actually thought most of the problems mentioned in this thread about pvp were already solved by games like GW2, DAOC, Return for Reckoning and Champions of Regnum? They all seem to have active, well balanced pvp (some beter than others). GW2 is know to have too much of a zerg element where the pvp groups just ride around in packs sequentially grabbing forts. But RoR and Regnum have all solved that as well?
    YashaX
  • BrainyBrainy Member UncommonPosts: 345
    ringdany said:
    Just saw this discussion---  I actually thought most of the problems mentioned in this thread about pvp were already solved by games like GW2, DAOC, Return for Reckoning and Champions of Regnum? They all seem to have active, well balanced pvp (some beter than others). GW2 is know to have too much of a zerg element where the pvp groups just ride around in packs sequentially grabbing forts. But RoR and Regnum have all solved that as well?

    Well I never played Reckoning or Regnum, but in DAOC you might as well call that a PVE game.  I remember running around day in day out in 8 man PVP groups trying to find PVP and the zones were empty.  Only thing was stealthers unless you went to the Albion Portal Keep where you could sometimes find people hiding behind the guards.  Funny in DAOC the best PVP was the level 24 zone.  But the few PVP going on there compared to the PVE areas was just a drop in the bucket.

    But I actually like DAOC, wish they would have made DAOC2 instead of warhammer.
    ringdany
  • tzervotzervo Member RarePosts: 314
    Brainy said:
    PVP in MMO's will never work in OWPVP.   It relies on PVE'ers to be farmed.  In PVE the AI can die 1000's or infinite times and never complain. 
    ...
    Until these MMO's figure out a way to allow all skilled ranges of players to enjoy PVP and not just top tier, they will continue to fail.
    https://mmos.com/news/albion-online-surpasses-350k-monthly-active-players-plans-drastic-changes-to-alliances

    https://massivelyop.com/2020/05/05/eve-online-celebrates-17-years-with-login-rewards-and-triglavian-fights/

    https://venturebeat.com/2019/04/09/pearl-abyss-grosses-more-than-1-billion-for-black-desert-mmo/
    Iselinbcbully
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,301
    edited July 7
    tzervo said:
    Brainy said:
    PVP in MMO's will never work in OWPVP.   It relies on PVE'ers to be farmed.  In PVE the AI can die 1000's or infinite times and never complain. 
    ...
    Until these MMO's figure out a way to allow all skilled ranges of players to enjoy PVP and not just top tier, they will continue to fail.
    https://mmos.com/news/albion-online-surpasses-350k-monthly-active-players-plans-drastic-changes-to-alliances

    https://massivelyop.com/2020/05/05/eve-online-celebrates-17-years-with-login-rewards-and-triglavian-fights/

    https://venturebeat.com/2019/04/09/pearl-abyss-grosses-more-than-1-billion-for-black-desert-mmo/
    BDO is especially telling because it has everything an OWPvP phobe should hate yet they don't. Why? Because you're immune from it until you get to level 50 and leveling past 50 is not even automatic - you need to use an item to unlock 50+

    That makes me wonder if another aspect of that crowd is never leveling up all that high in the MMOs they play.

    99% of PvP in BDO is ganking those who are grinding in your favorite XP/hour grinding spot - and BDO PvE is all about grinding. The motivation for doing PvP is about as lame as it gets in any game yet it mostly gets a free pass when it should be ridiculed by them.
    YashaXbcbully
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • tzervotzervo Member RarePosts: 314
    Rhoklaw said:

     Again, forced PvP is also rubbish. A game speaks for itself when you HAVE to put incentives in PvP areas just to make a PvP game enjoyable. Why is that? If people enjoy PvP so much, why do you need incentives?

    Any MMORPG with PvP has to make a choice. Either PvP is optional, which pisses off PvP players because like every PvE player has explained 1,000,000 times, yet PvP players ignore, that PvP players DO NOT enjoy fighting other PvP players. Is this blatant fact not obvious enough? When you give players the choice to PvP or not to, how is that bad game design? It's not. Forcing people to PvP is bad game design, PERIOD.
    With this reasoning, any challenging PVE content that rewards player skill or effort more is rubbish - why do PVE players need to extra rewards. Let's all go back to just farming mobs by pressing a single button.

    Better resources in an OWPVP MMO drive high-stakes competition over them and provide the meaning and context, making it different from a MOBA or shooter.
    bcbully
  • RhoklawRhoklaw Member EpicPosts: 7,021
    YashaX said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    YashaX said:
    Brainy said:
    PVP in MMO's will never work in OWPVP.   It relies on PVE'ers to be farmed.  In PVE the AI can die 1000's or infinite times and never complain. 

    But for PVP to have 1000 kills requires someone to be killed 1000 times.   If you look at the bell curve, where top tier hunters rarely die, that means low tier have to almost always die "Deer".  PVE'ers dont want to be farmed.  Those "Deer" will just leave.  Then you have the mid range people that are the new farmed tier, who will now have no "Deer" to shoot, and are being farmed by the top,  then the Mid range PVPers leave.  That leaves the top hunters to fight each other, and they will just quit, because they dont want to die alot.

    Top Tier PVPers dont fight eachother much in MMO's because there is not a big enough incentive for them to do so.  They want to farm people.  These MMO's rely on PVE'ers and low skill PVPers to be farmed and try to draw them into their MMO's with massive incentives in PVP areas.

    Until these MMO's figure out a way to allow all skilled ranges of players to enjoy PVP and not just top tier, they will continue to fail.
    Complete crap. I personally don't like open-world free for all pvp games with player looting. But it is just plain stupid to go into that sort of a game and then complain about it. And it is absolute ignorant rubbish to claim that these sort of games rely on pve players to "farm". 

    Games like Albion put good resources in pvp areas to encourage players to fight over them. It is a catalyst for pvp, in a game that has a playerbase that went into the game wanting a full-loot pvp experience. 

     
    Again, forced PvP is also rubbish. A game speaks for itself when you HAVE to put incentives in PvP areas just to make a PvP game enjoyable. Why is that? If people enjoy PvP so much, why do you need incentives?

    Any MMORPG with PvP has to make a choice. Either PvP is optional, which pisses off PvP players because like every PvE player has explained 1,000,000 times, yet PvP players ignore, that PvP players DO NOT enjoy fighting other PvP players. Is this blatant fact not obvious enough? When you give players the choice to PvP or not to, how is that bad game design? It's not. Forcing people to PvP is bad game design, PERIOD.
    What on Earth are you talking about? Your comment has nothing to do with my post.




    Actually, my comment is replying to the last portion of your comment. The part where you say PvP games aren't designed to setup PvE players to get farmed by PvP players. Why do you think so many PvP players bitch about flagged PvP? If you are truly out to kill other PvP players, then surely a flagged PvP system wouldn't bother anyone, but that's not what I've seen on these forums.

    Why is it so important for PvE players to be forced into PvP? Why can't people play how they wish?

    Seems to me the entire last paragraph in your post expresses the exact problem we've been arguing about in this thread. Forced PvP by placing incentives in PvP areas. If those same incentives were placed in high level dungeon raids, I highly doubt you'd ever hear a PvE player bitch about a PvP game again.

  • tzervotzervo Member RarePosts: 314
    Iselin said:

     BDO is especially telling because it has everything an OWPvP phobe should hate yet they don't. Why? Because you're immune from it until you get to level 50 and leveling past 50 is not even automatic - you need to use an item to unlock 50+

    That makes me wonder if another aspect of that crowd is never leveling up all that high in the MMOs they play.

    99% of PvP in BDO is ganking those who are grinding in your favorite XP/hour grinding spot - and BDO PvE is all about grinding. The motivation for doing PvP is about as lame as it gets in any game yet it mostly gets a free pass when it should be ridiculed by them.
    Pure lifeskillers don't go past the forced PVP level like you mentioned. These players only take part in the trading aspects of the game and will not go the high level grind spots anyway since they cannot clear them.

    The motivation for doing PVP is not different from any other PVP MMO like Albion or EVE: contesting over resources. Grind spots are gold and XP resources. I find it quite organic.

    It is also not full loot, which is one of the reasons it is more appealing than other PVP titles. Many players are risk/loss averse, they are not PVP averse. And this affects both PVP/PVE players and PVP/PVE games (see death loss mechanics ;) )
    bcbullyYashaX
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,301
    edited July 7
    tzervo said:
    Iselin said:

     BDO is especially telling because it has everything an OWPvP phobe should hate yet they don't. Why? Because you're immune from it until you get to level 50 and leveling past 50 is not even automatic - you need to use an item to unlock 50+

    That makes me wonder if another aspect of that crowd is never leveling up all that high in the MMOs they play.

    99% of PvP in BDO is ganking those who are grinding in your favorite XP/hour grinding spot - and BDO PvE is all about grinding. The motivation for doing PvP is about as lame as it gets in any game yet it mostly gets a free pass when it should be ridiculed by them.
    Pure lifeskillers don't go past the forced PVP level like you mentioned. These players only take part in the trading aspects of the game and will not go the high level grind spots anyway since they cannot clear them.

    The motivation for doing PVP is not different from any other PVP MMO like Albion or EVE: contesting over resources. Grind spots are gold and XP resources. I find it quite organic.

    It is also not full loot, which is one of the reasons it is more appealing than other PVP titles. Many players are risk/loss averse, they are not PVP averse. And this affects both PVP/PVE players and PVP/PVE games (see death loss mechanics ;) )
    I consider that a very lame reason to PvP. PvP should have a legitimacy with a solid grounding in game lore exactly the same way PvE does. You kill those players and not these players because you're at war with them or they killed your father so prepare to die.

    One thing I always hated that about Archeage is that they went through the trouble of establishing factions as all good PvP games should, but then you could turn around and gank your own faction mates,

    I've stated many times in many PvP threads that I see chaotic kill anyone PvP as gang wars or muggings simulators. I want my PvP to be all about nations at war simulatons. I can immerse in the later but the former just seems like gamy shit - you might as well be playing Mortal Kombat not an MMO.

    And as you know, you say risk/reward for death penalties or losing your items and I say additional game systems tacked on that make you spend time doing other things to recover rather than the thing you actually want to do.

    That has nothing to do with risk it's just a focused vs. ADHD gaming preference :)
    SandmanjwYashaXJean-Luc_Picardultimateduck
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • RhoklawRhoklaw Member EpicPosts: 7,021
    Brainy said:
    ringdany said:
    Just saw this discussion---  I actually thought most of the problems mentioned in this thread about pvp were already solved by games like GW2, DAOC, Return for Reckoning and Champions of Regnum? They all seem to have active, well balanced pvp (some beter than others). GW2 is know to have too much of a zerg element where the pvp groups just ride around in packs sequentially grabbing forts. But RoR and Regnum have all solved that as well?

    Well I never played Reckoning or Regnum, but in DAOC you might as well call that a PVE game.  I remember running around day in day out in 8 man PVP groups trying to find PVP and the zones were empty.  Only thing was stealthers unless you went to the Albion Portal Keep where you could sometimes find people hiding behind the guards.  Funny in DAOC the best PVP was the level 24 zone.  But the few PVP going on there compared to the PVE areas was just a drop in the bucket.

    But I actually like DAOC, wish they would have made DAOC2 instead of warhammer.
    Initially, DAoC was a very popular game. I personally consider it the best hybrid PvE/PvP game ever designed. I played on the Merlin server and I never had issues finding PvP wars. In fact, 3 way battles were very common and I'm talking 100's of players. I also enjoyed my time in Thidranki too and consider it one of the best battlegrounds I've ever been a part of.

    The thing which probably hurt DAoC the most was the Trials of Atlantis expansion and introduction of Artifacts. That is when I quit, till they opened up classic servers.

    I agree with you about DAoC 2.0 would have been better than WHOnline. I mean, WHOnline would have worked if they utilized more of what made DAoC great, but nope, they decided to go deeper into PvP and less into PvE. Might be why it failed.
    BrainybcbullyYashaXultimateduck

  • tzervotzervo Member RarePosts: 314
    edited July 7
    Iselin said:

    I've stated many times in many PvP threads that I see chaotic kill anyone PvP as gang wars or muggings simulators. I want my PvP to be all about nations at war simulatons. I can immerse in the later but the former just seems like gamy shit - you might as well be playing Mortal Kombat not an MMO.
    That's the fundamental difference between RvR PVP and FFA PVP: in the first you have a small group of factions warring against each other and the objectives are more group-focused, and in the second you have a large number of groups (guilds) or solo players competing and the objectives are more selfish (personal, tight knit group progression). Though I find neither shit, both can be fun if the game is well designed :)

    But in both (like in real life wars) you usually have some competition over resources, that does not change (unless it is purely objective-driven like in GW2 WVW).
    bcbullyYashaX
  • tzervotzervo Member RarePosts: 314
    Rhoklaw said:

     If those same incentives were placed in high level dungeon raids, I highly doubt you'd ever hear a PvE player bitch about a PvP game again.
    Tell that to all the GW2 players bitching about the introduction of raids.
    bcbullyYashaX
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 12,994
    edited July 7
    tzervo said:
    Brainy said:
    PVP in MMO's will never work in OWPVP.   It relies on PVE'ers to be farmed.  In PVE the AI can die 1000's or infinite times and never complain. 
    ...
    Until these MMO's figure out a way to allow all skilled ranges of players to enjoy PVP and not just top tier, they will continue to fail.
    https://mmos.com/news/albion-online-surpasses-350k-monthly-active-players-plans-drastic-changes-to-alliances

    https://massivelyop.com/2020/05/05/eve-online-celebrates-17-years-with-login-rewards-and-triglavian-fights/

    https://venturebeat.com/2019/04/09/pearl-abyss-grosses-more-than-1-billion-for-black-desert-mmo/
    Are we really calling BDO open world PvP? I can remember being attacked in some out of the way place a couple of times, but mostly it seemed to be a consensual guild tagged system. Doesn't EVE have safe zones?

    I am not putting out my stall for open world here, my preference is RvR, just not sure how open world PvP anything is today.

     25 Agrees

    You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!

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  • tzervotzervo Member RarePosts: 314
    edited July 7
    Scot said:

    Are we really calling BDO open world PvP? I can remember being attacked in some out of the way place a couple of times, but mostly it seemed to be a consensual guild tagged system. Doesn't EVE have safe zones?

    I am not putting out my stall for open world here, my preference is RvR, just not sure how open world PvP anything is today.
    There is frequent OWPVP in BDO in popular grind spots to contest them.

    EVE has a security system that inhibits PVP significantly in high sec areas but you can still get attacked by suicide gankers in high sec if your cargo is juicy enough or by war targets if you are at war with another corp.
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 12,994
    tzervo said:
    Scot said:

    Are we really calling BDO open world PvP? I can remember being attacked in some out of the way place a couple of times, but mostly it seemed to be a consensual guild tagged system. Doesn't EVE have safe zones?

    I am not putting out my stall for open world here, my preference is RvR, just not sure how open world PvP anything is today.
    There is frequent OWPVP in BDO in popular grind spots to contest them.

    EVE has a security system that inhibits PVP significantly in high sec areas but you can still get attacked by suicide gankers in high sec if your cargo is juicy enough or by war targets if you are at war with another corp.
    Well that's what I am getting at, is it really OWPvP? In BDO players restrict themselves to few areas where special resources can be plundered, here the mindset of the players seems to be creating a zoned form of PvP. In EVE from what you have said, a security system is reducing the PvP to a minimal activity in high sec.

    Now that's always going to happen, players are going to have reasons as to why they PvP in certain areas. But are players not now becoming self regulating, in the past it was almost like a free for all. And the security system you mentioned is saying to me if you can't be self regulating the game will become designed to regulate you.

    Have PvP players moved on, is this what they now want? As a RvR fan it seems logical to me that "open world" PvP evolves and is no longer so open world at all. But I am not sure actual OWPvP fans want so much structure, they seemed to favour at the most guilds regulating what was going on.

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  • cheyanecheyane Member EpicPosts: 7,100
    edited July 7
    BDO, I never once got attacked by a player in it. I played it to my heart's content but I also stayed away from areas where the PvP players hung out.
     I was attacked more times in Archeage.

    I am of the opinion that Archeage had a very good idea with the peace and war zones and areas that would gradually become war zones from peace zones. It put the decision to go to an area where you might be killed in your hands. So I didn't mind the PvP at all. I loved that game and enjoyed farming and trading in that game. Unfortunately the labour system is the death of the game for me and their high level equipment grind is very bad for PvP. Some folk were way ahead on the curve and impossible to kill.

    Dark Age of Camelot was the game that allowed me to PvP when I wanted and PvE as much as I like. It was unfortunate that the PvE was so dull or I would have stayed. I enjoyed the RvR though it was great fun and I never felt targeted as a healer class. I was well protected in my groups. I don't think I actively killed anyone, left that to my minions aka realm mates.
    ScotYashaX
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  • tzervotzervo Member RarePosts: 314
    edited July 7
    Scot said:
    tzervo said:
    Scot said:

    Are we really calling BDO open world PvP? I can remember being attacked in some out of the way place a couple of times, but mostly it seemed to be a consensual guild tagged system. Doesn't EVE have safe zones?

    I am not putting out my stall for open world here, my preference is RvR, just not sure how open world PvP anything is today.
    There is frequent OWPVP in BDO in popular grind spots to contest them.

    EVE has a security system that inhibits PVP significantly in high sec areas but you can still get attacked by suicide gankers in high sec if your cargo is juicy enough or by war targets if you are at war with another corp.
    Well that's what I am getting at, is it really OWPvP? In BDO players restrict themselves to few areas where special resources can be plundered, here the mindset of the players seems to be creating a zoned form of PvP. In EVE from what you have said, a security system is reducing the PvP to a minimal activity in high sec.

    Now that's always going to happen, players are going to have reasons as to why they PvP in certain areas. But are players not now becoming self regulating, in the past it was almost like a free for all. And the security system you mentioned is saying to me if you can't be self regulating the game will become designed to regulate you.

    Have PvP players moved on, is this what they now want? As a RvR fan it seems logical to me that "open world" PvP evolves and is no longer so open world at all. But I am not sure actual OWPvP fans want so much structure, they seemed to favour at the most guilds regulating what was going on.
    You always need some structure and control to restrict griefers, and this is not just for PVP games.

    The self-regulation in BDO PVP is just the result of optimizing rewards and progression (and again, this is not exclusive to PVP games). Anyone can freely fight each other elsewhere but there is no point - you can always get that sort of excitement and no-stakes competition and action in any themepark arena or MOBA.

    The same goes for EVE, with some help from the game systems in high sec - you still get the fully lawless experience in low sec which is the bigger part of the game. Plus you always need a lower risk zone to break new players in until they learn the game.

    I see this as a good thing. Meaningful PVP is always more interesting than full blown chaos. It also creates an environment that is harsher to griefers and enables more interesting player driven stories.

    As for what the PvPers want, there's two types: the killers that like domination over another player and like chaos, and those that PvP for the unprefictability and challenge of PvP and like having PvP with a meaning. The first like the game to have less structure. Usually PvP games cater to both, via zones with different rulesets (like EVE's security system).
    ScotYashaX
  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,152
    Rhoklaw said:

    If people enjoy PvP so much, why do you need incentives?

    Mmhhh... if people enjoy PvE so much, why do you need incentives (aka loot, achievements, etc...)?
    ultimateduckcheyanetzervoScotYashaX
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  • ultimateduckultimateduck Member RarePosts: 752
    Rhoklaw said:
    Initially, DAoC was a very popular game. I personally consider it the best hybrid PvE/PvP game ever designed. I played on the Merlin server and I never had issues finding PvP wars. In fact, 3 way battles were very common and I'm talking 100's of players. I also enjoyed my time in Thidranki too and consider it one of the best battlegrounds I've ever been a part of.

    The thing which probably hurt DAoC the most was the Trials of Atlantis expansion and introduction of Artifacts. That is when I quit, till they opened up classic servers.

    I agree with you about DAoC 2.0 would have been better than WHOnline. I mean, WHOnline would have worked if they utilized more of what made DAoC great, but nope, they decided to go deeper into PvP and less into PvE. Might be why it failed.
    Really? I loved ToA. I thought it was a cool way to expand character abilities beyond just raising the level cap, and the concept of equipment that had to be assembled and leveled was pretty cool.

    OWPVP will never work for most of the gaming population. This leaves two options, leave out PvP which alienated those who like PvP, or place PvP in a separate zone like DAoC.
  • remsleepremsleep Member RarePosts: 485
    edited July 7
    Rhoklaw said:

    If people enjoy PvP so much, why do you need incentives?

    Mmhhh... if people enjoy PvE so much, why do you need incentives (aka loot, achievements, etc...)?


    Here's the main issues with both 


    PvE - fun when challenging with decent mob AI, interesting quest and story (exceedingly rare)
    PvE - whackamole mobs, dumb as dirt - boring ass questing and shit story (this is the norm)


    PvP - fun when balanced with group/realm/factions - balanced numbers (exceedingly rare)
    PvP - unbalanced, usually one faction/group dominates with numbers and gear and is completely one-sided (this is the norm)



    Conclusion - both can be great given the right circumstances - but this is very rare, as most PvE and PvP in actual gameplay is not that fun
    Post edited by remsleep on
    YashaX
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