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Hardcore playstyle.

What do you think about a MMORPG where most players are divided into two camps of players?  

The average Joe.  Good fighters but mostly are tradesmen which is a much easier playstyle. Can become skilled fighter but you'd never be elite.  Can enjoy soft dungeons and etc.

Hero route.  You can become an elite fighter but to earn the best stuff you go through grueling dungeons and risk perm death in certain instances.  You have no trade skills and need multiple types tradesmen to adventure.  

Just a brainstorming exercise sitting here at mostly empty work place. We have this in play in a lot of ways already but it gives some balance in my opinion to those who don't wish to partake in end game stuff.
AlBQuirky
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  • ArteriusArterius Member EpicPosts: 2,838
    I like that alot. Currently busy but I will edit this later with my thoughts on the matter 
    Currently playing: Outer Worlds (Xbox One X)

    Currently Reading: Skaven Slayer (Gotrek and Felix Book 2)

    Currently Writing: Champions of Legend Book 1 (3rd Draft)

    Currently Watching: Oz (Season 4), Soprano's (Season 1)


  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Member EpicPosts: 2,960
    What do you think about a MMORPG where most players are divided into two camps of players?  

    The average Joe.  Good fighters but mostly are tradesmen which is a much easier playstyle. Can become skilled fighter but you'd never be elite.  Can enjoy soft dungeons and etc.

    Hero route.  You can become an elite fighter but to earn the best stuff you go through grueling dungeons and risk perm death in certain instances.  You have no trade skills and need multiple types tradesmen to adventure.  

    Just a brainstorming exercise sitting here at mostly empty work place. We have this in play in a lot of ways already but it gives some balance in my opinion to those who don't wish to partake in end game stuff.
    Sand box games already allow this. It allows multiple playstyles, the goal is to design an interconnected world where there is a benefit to all types of game play
    KyleranAmarantharAlBQuirky
    Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix
    You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations. 
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,357
    What do you think about a MMORPG where most players are divided into two camps of players?  

    The average Joe.  Good fighters but mostly are tradesmen which is a much easier playstyle. Can become skilled fighter but you'd never be elite.  Can enjoy soft dungeons and etc.

    Hero route.  You can become an elite fighter but to earn the best stuff you go through grueling dungeons and risk perm death in certain instances.  You have no trade skills and need multiple types tradesmen to adventure.  

    Just a brainstorming exercise sitting here at mostly empty work place. We have this in play in a lot of ways already but it gives some balance in my opinion to those who don't wish to partake in end game stuff.
    Sand box games already allow this. It allows multiple playstyles, the goal is to design an interconnected world where there is a benefit to all types of game play
    Was going to agree, OP descibed EVE in several ways.

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,190
    edited December 2019
    What do you think about a MMORPG where most players are divided into two camps of players?  

    The average Joe.  Good fighters but mostly are tradesmen which is a much easier playstyle. Can become skilled fighter but you'd never be elite.  Can enjoy soft dungeons and etc.

    Hero route.  You can become an elite fighter but to earn the best stuff you go through grueling dungeons and risk perm death in certain instances.  You have no trade skills and need multiple types tradesmen to adventure.  

    Just a brainstorming exercise sitting here at mostly empty work place. We have this in play in a lot of ways already but it gives some balance in my opinion to those who don't wish to partake in end game stuff.
    Sand box games already allow this. It allows multiple playstyles, the goal is to design an interconnected world where there is a benefit to all types of game play
    I think that should be the goal of any Sandbox MMORPG. Some are SINO, "Sandbox in name only."

    lol

    That's the kind of MMORPG I dream of. Done well, and full of diverse play and "life." 
    "As the world turns" is much better than the heavily restricted play of modern games. 
    AlBQuirky

    Once upon a time....

  • Po_ggPo_gg Member EpicPosts: 5,210
    Kyleran said:
    Was going to agree, OP descibed EVE in several ways.
    My first thought wasn't Eve but fits for Eve as well: alts. Lots of alts.

    What prevents a player aiming for the hero route with "no trade skills and need multiple types tradesmen to adventure" to simply say:
    "Ok, so my HeroDude123, who will be the killer elite ubersoldier can't do anything else... ok, then MuleJoe, TraderJim etc. will the alts to support him",
    just like many players in Eve do already, right Kyl? :) 
    KyleranAlBQuirkyAAAMEOW
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,099
    Po_gg said:
    Kyleran said:
    Was going to agree, OP descibed EVE in several ways.
    My first thought wasn't Eve but fits for Eve as well: alts. Lots of alts.

    What prevents a player aiming for the hero route with "no trade skills and need multiple types tradesmen to adventure" to simply say:
    "Ok, so my HeroDude123, who will be the killer elite ubersoldier can't do anything else... ok, then MuleJoe, TraderJim etc. will the alts to support him",
    just like many players in Eve do already, right Kyl? :) 
    I never played Eve.  Alts aren't preventable.  But you should have trades spread out that you need multiple alts to do it all.  If the game profits from it then so be it.  

    Also the permanent death risk involved in trying to get the best stuff should keep players busy.  
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,247
    Po_gg said:
    Kyleran said:
    Was going to agree, OP descibed EVE in several ways.
    My first thought wasn't Eve but fits for Eve as well: alts. Lots of alts.

    What prevents a player aiming for the hero route with "no trade skills and need multiple types tradesmen to adventure" to simply say:
    "Ok, so my HeroDude123, who will be the killer elite ubersoldier can't do anything else... ok, then MuleJoe, TraderJim etc. will the alts to support him",
    just like many players in Eve do already, right Kyl? :) 
    Not having shared bank space would help curb that. In old EQ, alts had to physically drop an item, log out, then log in to the other character and hope some random passerby did not "pick up" whatever was dropped :)

    Alts were still used, but items were not so easily transferred. Friends could also help by receiving said item(s) and then giving them back. Sometimes... :lol:
    Vermillion_Raventhal

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,357
    AlBQuirky said:
    Po_gg said:
    Kyleran said:
    Was going to agree, OP descibed EVE in several ways.
    My first thought wasn't Eve but fits for Eve as well: alts. Lots of alts.

    What prevents a player aiming for the hero route with "no trade skills and need multiple types tradesmen to adventure" to simply say:
    "Ok, so my HeroDude123, who will be the killer elite ubersoldier can't do anything else... ok, then MuleJoe, TraderJim etc. will the alts to support him",
    just like many players in Eve do already, right Kyl? :) 
    Not having shared bank space would help curb that. In old EQ, alts had to physically drop an item, log out, then log in to the other character and hope some random passerby did not "pick up" whatever was dropped :)

    Alts were still used, but items were not so easily transferred. Friends could also help by receiving said item(s) and then giving them back. Sometimes... :lol:
    Err, it's called multiboxing...I always had multiple accounts to facilitate easy and safe trading between alts.

    Wait...you play MMORPGs with only one account per game? Weird.

    ;)





    Po_gg

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,099
    Kyleran said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Po_gg said:
    Kyleran said:
    Was going to agree, OP descibed EVE in several ways.
    My first thought wasn't Eve but fits for Eve as well: alts. Lots of alts.

    What prevents a player aiming for the hero route with "no trade skills and need multiple types tradesmen to adventure" to simply say:
    "Ok, so my HeroDude123, who will be the killer elite ubersoldier can't do anything else... ok, then MuleJoe, TraderJim etc. will the alts to support him",
    just like many players in Eve do already, right Kyl? :) 
    Not having shared bank space would help curb that. In old EQ, alts had to physically drop an item, log out, then log in to the other character and hope some random passerby did not "pick up" whatever was dropped :)

    Alts were still used, but items were not so easily transferred. Friends could also help by receiving said item(s) and then giving them back. Sometimes... :lol:
    Err, it's called multiboxing...I always had multiple accounts to facilitate easy and safe trading between alts.

    Wait...you play MMORPGs with only one account per game? Weird.

    ;)





    Nothing can really stop that from happening.  But companies sure don't mind.
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,354
    I never understand the point of tradeskill if everyone have alts and have every trade skill.

    Trade skill should be sooooo time consuming and painful to level, people would not level them, or just level 1.
    deniter
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,847
    Nah,reason is what you are doing is basically remove the rpg from a rpg and just give the players what we already have a problem with and that is shallow single minded rpg's.Example all they want to do is run dungeons,we already have those type of games and players so what's the difference?
    We already have he option to mostly be a crafter,explorer as well,IF the game is any good that is.
    If i use Wow as an example game,they litter the areas so much that it would be difficult to just roam around freely and look to craft.Rewards are from doing those mundane quests,so again they only get rewarded by playing connect the dots.

    All we need is a simple template,create the game with rpg+mmo in mind and cover as many bases as you would expect a living world to be like.Then after we finally get devs making the simple template,which seems to be a chore for most devs,then we get into fine tuning the systems so they are engrossing,interesting,in depth.
    a system of go do this quest is NOT in depth and is not showing much effort.A simple system of press this button and auto join a group in an instance dungeon is NOT how to build a proper rpg nor is it even plausibly realistic.
    Point is we already have all the tools needed to give players the game  with options,we just need good developers.
    delete5230

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,247
    Kyleran said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Po_gg said:
    Kyleran said:
    Was going to agree, OP descibed EVE in several ways.
    My first thought wasn't Eve but fits for Eve as well: alts. Lots of alts.

    What prevents a player aiming for the hero route with "no trade skills and need multiple types tradesmen to adventure" to simply say:
    "Ok, so my HeroDude123, who will be the killer elite ubersoldier can't do anything else... ok, then MuleJoe, TraderJim etc. will the alts to support him",
    just like many players in Eve do already, right Kyl? :) 
    Not having shared bank space would help curb that. In old EQ, alts had to physically drop an item, log out, then log in to the other character and hope some random passerby did not "pick up" whatever was dropped :)

    Alts were still used, but items were not so easily transferred. Friends could also help by receiving said item(s) and then giving them back. Sometimes... :lol:
    Err, it's called multiboxing...I always had multiple accounts to facilitate easy and safe trading between alts.

    Wait...you play MMORPGs with only one account per game? Weird.

    ;)





    Yea... I know I'm so backwards ;)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,190
    AAAMEOW said:
    I never understand the point of tradeskill if everyone have alts and have every trade skill.

    Trade skill should be sooooo time consuming and painful to level, people would not level them, or just level 1.
    I sort of agree. The thing is, it doesn't have to be painful to the real "Trades" minded players. 
    It's only painful to players who don't like what's involved in Trades; Time and management. But that stuff is just what many players who want to play that Economic game want. 
    So, you build it so that it takes lots of time for production, and manage the business aspects, and let the RMTers cry themselves to sleep. 
    RMTers are just as bad as PKers. They want everything their way at the cost to quality gaming. 
    I say "NO." 

    That's my opinion, anyways. 
    AlBQuirky

    Once upon a time....

  • Po_ggPo_gg Member EpicPosts: 5,210
    edited January 1
    AAAMEOW said:
    I never understand the point of tradeskill if everyone have alts and have every trade skill.

    Trade skill should be sooooo time consuming and painful to level, people would not level them, or just level 1.
    That's true, but you said the keyword yourself, "everyone". Which is definitely not the case, for the same reason you say right afterwards.

    With using LotRO as example (not a fit for Vermillion's more sandbox-like original post, just addressing the alt topic through it), crafting there is quite heavily interdependent by design, to encourage trading and economy.
    Those few who are really into crafting, clearly not everyone just maybe 10% tops, make alts for every vocation and level them up so they could be independent. Takes a lot of time as you said.

    There are players ignoring crafting entirely since their fun is elsewhere.

    And there are the "regular" players, by my guess the majority, who operate the "regular" way as Turbine designed, just pick a vocation which suits them the most (easiest to raise, gets the easiest cash, supplement their class, etc.) and raise that one, buying and selling stuff from other players, regular crafters and altoholics alike.


    If the design is right, only those will choose the alt path who are really into it and don't mind the extra work. In my first reply I didn't mean either that alts would wreck Vermillion's idea, only voiced the option of altoholics might go around the design like they do in most games.

    And it ain't a good or bad thing, players always stretch the barriers, my favourite explorer pastime for example is trying to find cracks and holes on the invisible barriers surrounding games, and get outside the map... just for the fun of it.
    AlBQuirky
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,512
    edited January 1
    All this and all the responses are worthless if games are made "easy".

    Last time I played GW2 a few years back Everything was handed to the player as they move left to right across the screen. 

    If I ran my character a few levels ahead to introduce some challenge, he would be collecting gear five levels ahead and would have to wait for catch up to equip it. 

    THIS MAKES CRAFTING WORTHLESS....... All mmorpgs turned this way, and recently viewing ESO is the same.



    My problem with most people here is their ideas are for "living in the past game play"... none of this matters any more ! 

    And the biggest problem is... everything is fine. 
    AlBQuirky
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,354
    All this and all the responses are worthless if games are made "easy".

    Last time I played GW2 a few years back Everything was handed to the player as they move left to right across the screen. 

    It's purposely made easy so anyone can play.  I remember the first expansion of GW2, the forum are full of complain the game is too hard.  The expansion is actually not hard for most people, it is just the small minority of people having troubles complaining.

    And developer don't have troubles making difficult content.  Just try to solo dungeon.  But if developer make the difficulty that hard people would complain.  

    I pretty much never heard people complain about GW2 being too easy on GW2 forum.  But I do hear people complaining it is too hard during the first expansion.
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,175
    Po_gg said:
    What prevents a player aiming for the hero route with "no trade skills and need multiple types tradesmen to adventure" to simply say:
    "Ok, so my HeroDude123, who will be the killer elite ubersoldier can't do anything else... ok, then MuleJoe, TraderJim etc. will the alts to support him", 
    ...complexity and level of engagement.

    What you are describing only works in games where crafting or other playstyles are supplementary to main purpose if the game(themeparks).

    In a game like EVE though, where "professions" are fully viable playstyles by design and crafting chains being long and complex, "alts supporting the main character" is often an unfeasible option due level of engagement.
    delete5230
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,512
    Gdemami said:
    Po_gg said:
    What prevents a player aiming for the hero route with "no trade skills and need multiple types tradesmen to adventure" to simply say:
    "Ok, so my HeroDude123, who will be the killer elite ubersoldier can't do anything else... ok, then MuleJoe, TraderJim etc. will the alts to support him", 
    ...complexity and level of engagement.

    What you are describing only works in games where crafting or other playstyles are supplementary to main purpose if the game(themeparks).

    In a game like EVE though, where "professions" are fully viable playstyles by design and crafting chains being long and complex, "alts supporting the main character" is often an unfeasible option due level of engagement.
    @Gdemami..... Are you the number one guy for Lol's ?
  • Po_ggPo_gg Member EpicPosts: 5,210
    edited January 1
    Gdemami said:

    What you are describing only works in games where crafting or other playstyles are supplementary to main purpose if the game(themeparks).

    In a game like EVE though, where "professions" are fully viable playstyles by design and crafting chains being long and complex, "alts supporting the main character" is often an unfeasible option due level of engagement.
    While I ain't the resident EVE expert ( @Kyleran to the rescue) the concept of "main" is fully present in there as well - even if it's more fluid and can change based on the player's current goals.
    Alts are still providing support to an another character, be it ISK farming, cargo haul, infiltration and spying, etc. 

    The only difference with so much "fractured" playstyles, which is often the case with sandboxes, is that players won't even meddle with a lot of parts of the game, and for the parts they're interested in they will use separate alts...  like when a player is in the mood for some relaxation mining, s/he will log in with the miner alt and won't go mining with the scout for instance.
    It ain't a positive neither negative, just a different design.

    The good thing in altoholism, it works both in sandboxes as in themeparks just fine :)
    GdemamiKyleranAlBQuirky
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,175
    Po_gg said:
    While I ain't the resident EVE expert
    ...why do you even talk then?

    You are just making baseless, stupid assumptions.
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,099
    Most MMORPG now seem to have divided players already. The gap has narrowed with more casual means of obtaining elite gear.  This is from a themepark view.  The hardcore character are elite heroes.  They have to go to the most challenging dungeons, raids, zones to obtain the best stuff. 

    Downside is they need multiple craftsman to sustain.  They also risk situational permanent death. So while you can be more powerful you risk losing it all. I would keep the elite heroes rarer as the best stuff has the most risk.

    Of course people can and will have alts.  It's just the nature of the genre.  But if you need someone who can cleanse you of corruption, repair and craft gear, remove fatigue, make options, make food and etc it would be much more of a chore.  

    This was something I tried to come up with that kind pull MMORPG in a different path.
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,354
    Most MMORPG now seem to have divided players already. The gap has narrowed with more casual means of obtaining elite gear.  This is from a themepark view.  The hardcore character are elite heroes.  They have to go to the most challenging dungeons, raids, zones to obtain the best stuff. 

    Downside is they need multiple craftsman to sustain.  They also risk situational permanent death. So while you can be more powerful you risk losing it all. I would keep the elite heroes rarer as the best stuff has the most risk.

    Of course people can and will have alts.  It's just the nature of the genre.  But if you need someone who can cleanse you of corruption, repair and craft gear, remove fatigue, make options, make food and etc it would be much more of a chore.  

    This was something I tried to come up with that kind pull MMORPG in a different path.
    But in themepark games I typically dont' need to gimp my fighting skill to take up crafting profession.  The crafting system is kept separate from fighting skill.

    Some sandbox games make you choose to gimp your fighting skill just so you can pick up crafting skill.  
    Kyleran
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,099
    edited January 1
    AAAMEOW said:
    Most MMORPG now seem to have divided players already. The gap has narrowed with more casual means of obtaining elite gear.  This is from a themepark view.  The hardcore character are elite heroes.  They have to go to the most challenging dungeons, raids, zones to obtain the best stuff. 

    Downside is they need multiple craftsman to sustain.  They also risk situational permanent death. So while you can be more powerful you risk losing it all. I would keep the elite heroes rarer as the best stuff has the most risk.

    Of course people can and will have alts.  It's just the nature of the genre.  But if you need someone who can cleanse you of corruption, repair and craft gear, remove fatigue, make options, make food and etc it would be much more of a chore.  

    This was something I tried to come up with that kind pull MMORPG in a different path.
    But in themepark games I typically dont' need to gimp my fighting skill to take up crafting profession.  The crafting system is kept separate from fighting skill.

    Some sandbox games make you choose to gimp your fighting skill just so you can pick up crafting skill.  
    Do you do all the topline raids to get BiS?  Most players don't but they arent gimping themselves by not doing it right? Just not playing high end stuff.

    You are looking at wrong.  Regular characters aren't gimped.  The hardcore difficulty players are playing hardcore mode.  Facing more challenges and perm death exchange for more power.
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,190
    Most MMORPG now seem to have divided players already. The gap has narrowed with more casual means of obtaining elite gear.  This is from a themepark view.  The hardcore character are elite heroes.  They have to go to the most challenging dungeons, raids, zones to obtain the best stuff. 

    Downside is they need multiple craftsman to sustain.  They also risk situational permanent death. So while you can be more powerful you risk losing it all. I would keep the elite heroes rarer as the best stuff has the most risk.

    Of course people can and will have alts.  It's just the nature of the genre.  But if you need someone who can cleanse you of corruption, repair and craft gear, remove fatigue, make options, make food and etc it would be much more of a chore.  

    This was something I tried to come up with that kind pull MMORPG in a different path.
    Oh damn, I just wrote out an idea and it didn't post. Maybe I'll try later. Just testing it now. 

    Once upon a time....

  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 7,368
    edited January 1
    The amount of Hardcore players that will play on a perma death rule set in an MMORPG  is near 0
    Po_gg
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