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World Simulation

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Comments

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,858
    You don't need full on world interaction type simulation to have decent simulation.

    All you need is to design the world in a way that is simulates a real world.At the VERY BASIC design,instances do the exact opposite,they create a fake looking world.

    I...we have only accepted a zone line for years because it really is sort of needed but actual instances are NOT needed.World simulation.....weather,building,water zones,ships,surival like food and drink,sleep etc etc.

    So that is what i ask for,just bring the world to life and make the entire world plausible,i don't need the added fluff like being able to interact with every single item in the world or to kick dirt and see it fly through the air,heck i also don't need a sitting animation either.There is a fine line that must be drawn on delivering the MANY animations needed to go 100%,it would be far too daunting a task.
    AlBQuirky

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 3,908
    Wizardry said:
    The superficial gamer,which btw are MOST that are playing mmorpg's right now ,will simply ignore anything and everything that is not loot based.
    I bet less than 1% are playing for the immersion of the world or the FUN of the game,they play because their shallow goal is levels and the bigger goal is the BEST loot.

    So even if a developer gave us loads of content,tons of side branches,several ways to customize our character,people would still go for the best loot and ignore everything else the developer put effort into.

    So we are stuck because the vast majority are shallow non mmo/rpg gamer's,they are as some have mentioned over many threads,just people with goals in mind.So naturally if this shallow gaming sells,that is what devs will keep delivering because it also happens ot be the cheapest and easiest to design,so easy mode money for the devs.
    I don't agree. For one thing, there's a whole bunch of people who have pretty much given up on this current form of MMORPGs. And that's a huge market to go after for anyone wanting to make that old fashioned sort of game, with atmosphere and depth. 

    While I usually agree with you, this concept of a "whole bunch of people" waiting for a new version of an old game simply can't be proven.  Most players of the 1st generation of MMORPGs have moved on with their life, work or family.  They may be playing other games, other genres, not playing at all, or simply tolerating what they are playing.  No one can really say.  The likelihood of them simply waiting for a new "savior" is a bit disturbing.

    What is true is that there are companies that are planning their business strategy on recapturing this "lost demographic" by launching their game and letting it be a Pied Piper to call the masses.  I don't think these companies really know where and what their potential customers are, and are hoping on recreating the magic of the early days of MMORPGs.  That won't happen.

    Everyone who has ever wanted to play an online version of their tabletop gaming sessions has already had 20 years to do so.  Older players have experienced that trend.  Parents have played with their kids, children found these games already on their own.   It won't be a new experience for anyone.  We've all played one of the hundreds of MMORPG type games that have made it to market.  It won't be a new experience.

    There won't even be the appeal based on an amazing community.  As much as anything, that was due to a a collision of factors, a large pnp tabletop RP heritage, a general unfamiliarity with the new form of persistent online multiplayer games, and the newness of rampant internet access.  Those factors are very unlikely to repeat themselves.

    A convergence of these factors recreating that "early game environment" appears to be more a case of nostalgia and optimism than anything that can be directly observed.  It's fine that companies are willing to risk their money on such lofty goals, but the number of companies limiting themselves to "their own money" is rapidly dwindling.  Companies are preying on the hopes, wishes and dreams of potential customers in a way they never did before.  They are trying to sell conceptual ideas rather than products.

    In the end, this can't be a positive thing for MMORPG players.  The past is stubbornly unlikely to repeat itself.



    AlBQuirky

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,202
    Wizardry said:
    You don't need full on world interaction type simulation to have decent simulation.

    All you need is to design the world in a way that is simulates a real world.At the VERY BASIC design,instances do the exact opposite,they create a fake looking world.

    I...we have only accepted a zone line for years because it really is sort of needed but actual instances are NOT needed.World simulation.....weather,building,water zones,ships,surival like food and drink,sleep etc etc.

    So that is what i ask for,just bring the world to life and make the entire world plausible,i don't need the added fluff like being able to interact with every single item in the world or to kick dirt and see it fly through the air,heck i also don't need a sitting animation either.There is a fine line that must be drawn on delivering the MANY animations needed to go 100%,it would be far too daunting a task.
    Do you think what you are describing is what I was explaining? 

    Once upon a time....

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,202
    edited January 12
    Mendel said:
    Wizardry said:
    The superficial gamer,which btw are MOST that are playing mmorpg's right now ,will simply ignore anything and everything that is not loot based.
    I bet less than 1% are playing for the immersion of the world or the FUN of the game,they play because their shallow goal is levels and the bigger goal is the BEST loot.

    So even if a developer gave us loads of content,tons of side branches,several ways to customize our character,people would still go for the best loot and ignore everything else the developer put effort into.

    So we are stuck because the vast majority are shallow non mmo/rpg gamer's,they are as some have mentioned over many threads,just people with goals in mind.So naturally if this shallow gaming sells,that is what devs will keep delivering because it also happens ot be the cheapest and easiest to design,so easy mode money for the devs.
    I don't agree. For one thing, there's a whole bunch of people who have pretty much given up on this current form of MMORPGs. And that's a huge market to go after for anyone wanting to make that old fashioned sort of game, with atmosphere and depth. 

    While I usually agree with you, this concept of a "whole bunch of people" waiting for a new version of an old game simply can't be proven.  Most players of the 1st generation of MMORPGs have moved on with their life, work or family.  They may be playing other games, other genres, not playing at all, or simply tolerating what they are playing.  No one can really say.  The likelihood of them simply waiting for a new "savior" is a bit disturbing.

    What is true is that there are companies that are planning their business strategy on recapturing this "lost demographic" by launching their game and letting it be a Pied Piper to call the masses.  I don't think these companies really know where and what their potential customers are, and are hoping on recreating the magic of the early days of MMORPGs.  That won't happen.

    Everyone who has ever wanted to play an online version of their tabletop gaming sessions has already had 20 years to do so.  Older players have experienced that trend.  Parents have played with their kids, children found these games already on their own.   It won't be a new experience for anyone.  We've all played one of the hundreds of MMORPG type games that have made it to market.  It won't be a new experience.

    There won't even be the appeal based on an amazing community.  As much as anything, that was due to a a collision of factors, a large pnp tabletop RP heritage, a general unfamiliarity with the new form of persistent online multiplayer games, and the newness of rampant internet access.  Those factors are very unlikely to repeat themselves.

    A convergence of these factors recreating that "early game environment" appears to be more a case of nostalgia and optimism than anything that can be directly observed.  It's fine that companies are willing to risk their money on such lofty goals, but the number of companies limiting themselves to "their own money" is rapidly dwindling.  Companies are preying on the hopes, wishes and dreams of potential customers in a way they never did before.  They are trying to sell conceptual ideas rather than products.

    In the end, this can't be a positive thing for MMORPG players.  The past is stubbornly unlikely to repeat itself.



    You're welcome to believe what you want. 
    But what I know, that you evidently are subbornly refusing to believe, is that the kid with his Christmas firetruck would much rather have it with working lights, a water canon that works, and a ladder that he can extend and pivot around. 
    And that includes if that firetruck is digital in a game. 
    That never changes. 

    You want evidence?
    - Morwind and Skyrim.
    - Grand Theft Auto.
    - Minecraft. 



    Mendel

    Once upon a time....

  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,354
    So what kind of budget do you think is needed to make your hypothetical mmorpg.  And how much operation cost you going to spend each year after it.  How much player you expect to have?  What business model you going to use.  How much money you expect to make per year?
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,202
    AAAMEOW said:
    So what kind of budget do you think is needed to make your hypothetical mmorpg.  And how much operation cost you going to spend each year after it.  How much player you expect to have?  What business model you going to use.  How much money you expect to make per year?
    Oh for God's sake. I'm surprised you didn't ask me how many children have to be sacrificed. 
    Just the same old Negative Nancy from some of you. Eat a damned Snickers Bar. 

    Go back to page 1, 17th post down, and I talked a little about that. And how you get a lot of bang for the bucks with this. 

    It's no wonder the MMORPG scene is stagnated, what with some of you and your constant "that can't be done" and "nobody's going to like it if nobody's done it" attitudes. Based on stagnant content that's never ending, rinse and repeat, easy win, and predictable sameness, that some of you are just absolutely in luv with. 

    Once upon a time....

  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 7,371
    edited January 12
              23 years later UO is still the best World Sim , by a long shot ....There is your model
    Post edited by Scorchien on
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,202
    And I'm sorry that I'm getting P.O.ed. But this crap never ends, it just keeps spinning. 
    We're never going to see the MMORPG industry advance, as far as game play, if some of you have your way. 

    Once upon a time....

  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 3,908
    Mendel said:
    Wizardry said:
    The superficial gamer,which btw are MOST that are playing mmorpg's right now ,will simply ignore anything and everything that is not loot based.
    I bet less than 1% are playing for the immersion of the world or the FUN of the game,they play because their shallow goal is levels and the bigger goal is the BEST loot.

    So even if a developer gave us loads of content,tons of side branches,several ways to customize our character,people would still go for the best loot and ignore everything else the developer put effort into.

    So we are stuck because the vast majority are shallow non mmo/rpg gamer's,they are as some have mentioned over many threads,just people with goals in mind.So naturally if this shallow gaming sells,that is what devs will keep delivering because it also happens ot be the cheapest and easiest to design,so easy mode money for the devs.
    I don't agree. For one thing, there's a whole bunch of people who have pretty much given up on this current form of MMORPGs. And that's a huge market to go after for anyone wanting to make that old fashioned sort of game, with atmosphere and depth. 

    While I usually agree with you, this concept of a "whole bunch of people" waiting for a new version of an old game simply can't be proven.  Most players of the 1st generation of MMORPGs have moved on with their life, work or family.  They may be playing other games, other genres, not playing at all, or simply tolerating what they are playing.  No one can really say.  The likelihood of them simply waiting for a new "savior" is a bit disturbing.

    What is true is that there are companies that are planning their business strategy on recapturing this "lost demographic" by launching their game and letting it be a Pied Piper to call the masses.  I don't think these companies really know where and what their potential customers are, and are hoping on recreating the magic of the early days of MMORPGs.  That won't happen.

    Everyone who has ever wanted to play an online version of their tabletop gaming sessions has already had 20 years to do so.  Older players have experienced that trend.  Parents have played with their kids, children found these games already on their own.   It won't be a new experience for anyone.  We've all played one of the hundreds of MMORPG type games that have made it to market.  It won't be a new experience.

    There won't even be the appeal based on an amazing community.  As much as anything, that was due to a a collision of factors, a large pnp tabletop RP heritage, a general unfamiliarity with the new form of persistent online multiplayer games, and the newness of rampant internet access.  Those factors are very unlikely to repeat themselves.

    A convergence of these factors recreating that "early game environment" appears to be more a case of nostalgia and optimism than anything that can be directly observed.  It's fine that companies are willing to risk their money on such lofty goals, but the number of companies limiting themselves to "their own money" is rapidly dwindling.  Companies are preying on the hopes, wishes and dreams of potential customers in a way they never did before.  They are trying to sell conceptual ideas rather than products.

    In the end, this can't be a positive thing for MMORPG players.  The past is stubbornly unlikely to repeat itself.



    You're welcome to believe what you want. 
    But what I know, that you evidently are subbornly refusing to believe, is that the kid with his Christmas firetruck would much rather have it with working lights, a water canon that works, and a ladder that he can extend and pivot around. 
    And that includes if that firetruck is digital in a game. 
    That never changes. 

    You want evidence?
    - Morwind and Skyrim.
    - Grand Theft Auto.
    - Minecraft. 




    Pretty good argument, but it misses my point -- there isn't a hoard of people waiting on a game.  An old product is unlikely to create a new experience.  A child that wants a drone or RC car isn't going to be happy with a yo-yo or hula hoop or firetruck, despite the fact these toys were amazing fun (and great sellers) in the 1950s and into the 60s.  (Thanks Duncan, Hasbro and Tonka for fueling the dreams of a generation).  Your own examples demonstrate that the customers' expectations have changed and evolved as society has advanced.

    People aren't nostalgic for the games like UO or EQ1 or AC1, they are nostalgic for the *experience* those new games provided.  Amazing communities.  The romance of the ideas behind these games.  A chance to Role Play with a seemingly impartial DM.  Hundreds or even thousands of other people playing the same thing at the same time.  The first gen MMORPGs offered the opportunity to belong.

    The games themselves had faults and issues, occasionally major, but we're willing to overlook those in our desire for a return to this innocence and new experiences.



    AlBQuirkyAzaron_Nightblade

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • goboygogoboygo Member RarePosts: 2,140
    Yes, yes and yes.
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,354
    edited January 12
    AAAMEOW said:
    So what kind of budget do you think is needed to make your hypothetical mmorpg.  And how much operation cost you going to spend each year after it.  How much player you expect to have?  What business model you going to use.  How much money you expect to make per year?
    Oh for God's sake. I'm surprised you didn't ask me how many children have to be sacrificed. 
    Just the same old Negative Nancy from some of you. Eat a damned Snickers Bar. 

    Go back to page 1, 17th post down, and I talked a little about that. And how you get a lot of bang for the bucks with this. 

    It's no wonder the MMORPG scene is stagnated, what with some of you and your constant "that can't be done" and "nobody's going to like it if nobody's done it" attitudes. Based on stagnant content that's never ending, rinse and repeat, easy win, and predictable sameness, that some of you are just absolutely in luv with. 
    The genre is stagnant because people dont' support indie games and small sized mmorpg.

    People just keep pretending mmorpg don't exists when there are 200 out there.  And as much as 27 new upcoming mmorpg.  Are you going to play any of them?  I guess not.  Me neither.  

    Look at these games.  Are you going to play any of it?  I guess not.

    https://www.nerdmuch.com/games/5184/new-mmos/


  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,253
    And I'm sorry that I'm getting P.O.ed. But this crap never ends, it just keeps spinning. 
    We're never going to see the MMORPG industry advance, as far as game play, if some of you have your way. 
    Is it good to tell a child born with no arms that they can be a major league pitcher? Reality needs to be looked at along with dreams. Show them how to play baseball, for sure! Or play piano! Just don't tell them they will be a hall of fame player or virtuoso pianist.

    The MMO market IS stagnated. It will try something new ONLY, I say again only if the money dries up. This includes player funded games, too. Since players keep throwing millions at games and ideas, change is not going to happen.

    Hoping and wishing for any game with depth and varied experiences is good, but don't get mad when reality is pointed out. Multiple millions of players like what they have now and pay dearly for it. New players have been raised on "pay your way" since childhood (with the parents credit cards).

    i enjoy reading your ideas and dreams and take that ride right along with you. Maybe it's just my cynicism, or more likely 15+ years of seeing the genre develop to its present state, but I can't see the dreams as anything but dreams. Dreams are good. Ideas are great!

    Also remember that "all those old players" played many varied games, not just one game that satisfied them all.
    Azaron_NightbladePo_gg

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,354
    You want evidence?
    - Morwind and Skyrim.
    - Grand Theft Auto.
    - Minecraft. 



    Morrowind and Skyrim ->  Elder scroll online
    Grand theft auto -> APB
    Minecraft -> wurm online

    Pokemon -> Tem tem
    warz -> dayz
    shadowbane -> Crowfall
    DaOC -> Camelot unchained
    UO -> Legend of aria

    Games are being made.  Many are just not popular.
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,202
    AlBQuirky said:
    And I'm sorry that I'm getting P.O.ed. But this crap never ends, it just keeps spinning. 
    We're never going to see the MMORPG industry advance, as far as game play, if some of you have your way. 
    Is it good to tell a child born with no arms that they can be a major league pitcher? Reality needs to be looked at along with dreams. Show them how to play baseball, for sure! Or play piano! Just don't tell them they will be a hall of fame player or virtuoso pianist.

    The MMO market IS stagnated. It will try something new ONLY, I say again only if the money dries up. This includes player funded games, too. Since players keep throwing millions at games and ideas, change is not going to happen.

    Hoping and wishing for any game with depth and varied experiences is good, but don't get mad when reality is pointed out. Multiple millions of players like what they have now and pay dearly for it. New players have been raised on "pay your way" since childhood (with the parents credit cards).

    i enjoy reading your ideas and dreams and take that ride right along with you. Maybe it's just my cynicism, or more likely 15+ years of seeing the genre develop to its present state, but I can't see the dreams as anything but dreams. Dreams are good. Ideas are great!

    Also remember that "all those old players" played many varied games, not just one game that satisfied them all.
    That's the very definition of "stagnation", isn't it? When people stop following their dreams? 

    But you're wrong. If people didn't follow dreams, we would never have advanced to where we are today. God help us if we stop now, because we aren't done yet. 
    And that goes for gaming too. 

    No game will ever satisfy "all." But a game can satisfy the great majority. 
    Don't just say "it can't be done." ANYTHING can be done. 
    It's people who don't believe who don't do. It's as simple as that. Not that people always succeed, but there's always that one who leads the way. That's not me, lol. I'm not a game designer. But I do have ideas that I think are solid, and I think can at least give a start to successful implementation if developed. 

    Dreams are not only good, they are the path to better things. 
    AlBQuirkyMendelAzaron_Nightblade

    Once upon a time....

  • Po_ggPo_gg Member EpicPosts: 5,213
    Amaranthar said:
    That never changes. 

    You want evidence?
    - Morwind and Skyrim.
    - Grand Theft Auto.
    - Minecraft.
    A good evidence list, which goes both ways actually, and reflects not only upon the expectations (which never changed as you say) but the state of the industry as well...

    Minecraft, almost a decade old game, and after Notch sold it, the game stayed pretty much the same ("never changes"). Exploded in monetization however, movies, merch, spinoff games, etc.
    The game itself, minus a few additions and maybe two smaller game modes post-Microsoft purchase, is the same.


    GTA, last one was... hell, I'm a fan and still have to think back, 7 years ago? Ever since that Rockstar does nothing just milking the online part of it. Sure, there are rumours about VI... since years.


    Last good (or at least decent) ES, Oblivion was 14 years ago, just a sidenote.
    But even your example could be a fit, Skyrim is 9 years old, ever since they're just milking the IP through mobile, card, remakes, the online, and while a VI is in the rumours since years (just like GTA), I wouldn't have high hopes for it.

    Especially not after Todd's "they're playing those games since years and we have no touchpoint to them" comment (where touchpoint = money :) ), and then Fallout 76...

    If there ever will be a sixth ES (or GTA, for the matter) game, it will be online, heavily monetized, and even more watered down for the "easier access" to the masses.
    AlBQuirky
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,202
    AAAMEOW said:
    You want evidence?
    - Morwind and Skyrim.
    - Grand Theft Auto.
    - Minecraft. 



    Morrowind and Skyrim ->  Elder scroll online
    Grand theft auto -> APB
    Minecraft -> wurm online

    Pokemon -> Tem tem
    warz -> dayz
    shadowbane -> Crowfall
    DaOC -> Camelot unchained
    UO -> Legend of aria

    Games are being made.  Many are just not popular.

    The question is, why aren't they popular? Most games have something good in them. It's what's bad in them that's the problem. 
    AlBQuirky

    Once upon a time....

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,253
    edited January 13
    AlBQuirky said:
    And I'm sorry that I'm getting P.O.ed. But this crap never ends, it just keeps spinning. 
    We're never going to see the MMORPG industry advance, as far as game play, if some of you have your way. 
    Is it good to tell a child born with no arms that they can be a major league pitcher? Reality needs to be looked at along with dreams. Show them how to play baseball, for sure! Or play piano! Just don't tell them they will be a hall of fame player or virtuoso pianist.

    The MMO market IS stagnated. It will try something new ONLY, I say again only if the money dries up. This includes player funded games, too. Since players keep throwing millions at games and ideas, change is not going to happen.

    Hoping and wishing for any game with depth and varied experiences is good, but don't get mad when reality is pointed out. Multiple millions of players like what they have now and pay dearly for it. New players have been raised on "pay your way" since childhood (with the parents credit cards).

    i enjoy reading your ideas and dreams and take that ride right along with you. Maybe it's just my cynicism, or more likely 15+ years of seeing the genre develop to its present state, but I can't see the dreams as anything but dreams. Dreams are good. Ideas are great!

    Also remember that "all those old players" played many varied games, not just one game that satisfied them all.
    That's the very definition of "stagnation", isn't it? When people stop following their dreams? 

    But you're wrong. If people didn't follow dreams, we would never have advanced to where we are today. God help us if we stop now, because we aren't done yet. 
    And that goes for gaming too. 

    No game will ever satisfy "all." But a game can satisfy the great majority. 
    Don't just say "it can't be done." ANYTHING can be done. 
    It's people who don't believe who don't do. It's as simple as that. Not that people always succeed, but there's always that one who leads the way. That's not me, lol. I'm not a game designer. But I do have ideas that I think are solid, and I think can at least give a start to successful implementation if developed. 

    Dreams are not only good, they are the path to better things. 
    Very true. The difference is who will ACT on those dreams. You're asking "other people" to act on your dreams.

    If you decide to go all in and make your dreams come true, I'll support you 100%. Asking others to make your dreams come true is folly, to be honest.

    PS: When one acts on their dreams, they cease to be dreams and become goals. Right now, you discuss dreams and I'm with you on that :)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 3,908
    AlBQuirky said:
    And I'm sorry that I'm getting P.O.ed. But this crap never ends, it just keeps spinning. 
    We're never going to see the MMORPG industry advance, as far as game play, if some of you have your way. 
    Is it good to tell a child born with no arms that they can be a major league pitcher? Reality needs to be looked at along with dreams. Show them how to play baseball, for sure! Or play piano! Just don't tell them they will be a hall of fame player or virtuoso pianist.

    The MMO market IS stagnated. It will try something new ONLY, I say again only if the money dries up. This includes player funded games, too. Since players keep throwing millions at games and ideas, change is not going to happen.

    Hoping and wishing for any game with depth and varied experiences is good, but don't get mad when reality is pointed out. Multiple millions of players like what they have now and pay dearly for it. New players have been raised on "pay your way" since childhood (with the parents credit cards).

    i enjoy reading your ideas and dreams and take that ride right along with you. Maybe it's just my cynicism, or more likely 15+ years of seeing the genre develop to its present state, but I can't see the dreams as anything but dreams. Dreams are good. Ideas are great!

    Also remember that "all those old players" played many varied games, not just one game that satisfied them all.
    That's the very definition of "stagnation", isn't it? When people stop following their dreams? 

    But you're wrong. If people didn't follow dreams, we would never have advanced to where we are today. God help us if we stop now, because we aren't done yet. 
    And that goes for gaming too. 

    No game will ever satisfy "all." But a game can satisfy the great majority. 
    Don't just say "it can't be done." ANYTHING can be done. 
    It's people who don't believe who don't do. It's as simple as that. Not that people always succeed, but there's always that one who leads the way. That's not me, lol. I'm not a game designer. But I do have ideas that I think are solid, and I think can at least give a start to successful implementation if developed. 

    Dreams are not only good, they are the path to better things. 

    Players have dreams.  Developers also have dreams.  While the players' dreams are still about amazing game experiences, developers no longer appear to dream "We want to make a great game".  That seems to be a secondary (or tertiary) dream behind "Let's make a lot of money" or "Let's get famous."  Developer motivations seem definitely askew.  When the dreams changed, I don't know.

    Like you said, dreams are definitely good.  Maybe we players are simply asking the wrong people to make the games.



    AlBQuirky

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,202
    Just sayin', but stagnation is common. It happens in every industry, society, and everything else. But there's always those people who break through and start a new generation of growth. 
    It'll happen in MMORPGs, just as the genre itself broke new grounds, and the various forms of MMOs broke new grounds. 
    The future isn't bleak, it's just waiting to happen. 
    AlBQuirky

    Once upon a time....

  • ultimateduckultimateduck Member RarePosts: 777
    edited January 13
    How far do you want world simulation to go?
    If you work your way through a dungeon, and you see reliefs carved on walls, do you want them to be worth looking at? To tell a story? Reveal some Lore? 
    And if you get to the evil Mage at the end, defeat him, and find a Crystal Ball on his table, do you want it to actually have some magical effect that you can check out? Scrying of some sort? And do you want to be able to take that Crystal Ball and use it yourself? 

    Do you like levers that open doors or cause other things to work? How about buttons or smallish things to push, that cause something to open or move? 

    What kind of simulations do you want in MMORPGs? How far do you want it to go? Everywhere or just in a few places as you travel through the game? 

    I want my world simulation to be pretty immersive, which is why I love VR. I think a lot of interaction is cool for immersion. Even if pulling a lever breaks it off or only opens a small empty (or not) cubby next to it, it should still be pull-able. Killing the wizard and seeing a crystal ball should give you, if nothing else, a crystal ball trophy for your house.
    Amaranthar
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,202
    edited January 13
    How far do you want world simulation to go?
    If you work your way through a dungeon, and you see reliefs carved on walls, do you want them to be worth looking at? To tell a story? Reveal some Lore? 
    And if you get to the evil Mage at the end, defeat him, and find a Crystal Ball on his table, do you want it to actually have some magical effect that you can check out? Scrying of some sort? And do you want to be able to take that Crystal Ball and use it yourself? 

    Do you like levers that open doors or cause other things to work? How about buttons or smallish things to push, that cause something to open or move? 

    What kind of simulations do you want in MMORPGs? How far do you want it to go? Everywhere or just in a few places as you travel through the game? 

    I want my world simulation to be pretty immersive, which is why I love VR. I think a lot of interaction is cool for immersion. Even if pulling a lever breaks it off or only opens a small empty (or not) cubby next to it, it should still be pull-able. Killing the wizard and seeing a crystal ball should give you, if nothing else, a crystal ball trophy for your house.
    And there can be multiple trophies. A magical painting, a floor mirror, a water basin for scrying, special tomes, the list is long. That wizard could have had a secret chamber that was opened by pulling the drawers of his desk open in a certain order. (Think 'National Treasure, Book Of Secrets'.) 
    ultimateduck

    Once upon a time....

  • Azaron_NightbladeAzaron_Nightblade Member EpicPosts: 4,825
    edited January 13
    Mendel said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    And I'm sorry that I'm getting P.O.ed. But this crap never ends, it just keeps spinning. 
    We're never going to see the MMORPG industry advance, as far as game play, if some of you have your way. 
    Is it good to tell a child born with no arms that they can be a major league pitcher? Reality needs to be looked at along with dreams. Show them how to play baseball, for sure! Or play piano! Just don't tell them they will be a hall of fame player or virtuoso pianist.

    The MMO market IS stagnated. It will try something new ONLY, I say again only if the money dries up. This includes player funded games, too. Since players keep throwing millions at games and ideas, change is not going to happen.

    Hoping and wishing for any game with depth and varied experiences is good, but don't get mad when reality is pointed out. Multiple millions of players like what they have now and pay dearly for it. New players have been raised on "pay your way" since childhood (with the parents credit cards).

    i enjoy reading your ideas and dreams and take that ride right along with you. Maybe it's just my cynicism, or more likely 15+ years of seeing the genre develop to its present state, but I can't see the dreams as anything but dreams. Dreams are good. Ideas are great!

    Also remember that "all those old players" played many varied games, not just one game that satisfied them all.
    That's the very definition of "stagnation", isn't it? When people stop following their dreams? 

    But you're wrong. If people didn't follow dreams, we would never have advanced to where we are today. God help us if we stop now, because we aren't done yet. 
    And that goes for gaming too. 

    No game will ever satisfy "all." But a game can satisfy the great majority. 
    Don't just say "it can't be done." ANYTHING can be done. 
    It's people who don't believe who don't do. It's as simple as that. Not that people always succeed, but there's always that one who leads the way. That's not me, lol. I'm not a game designer. But I do have ideas that I think are solid, and I think can at least give a start to successful implementation if developed. 

    Dreams are not only good, they are the path to better things. 

    Players have dreams.  Developers also have dreams.  While the players' dreams are still about amazing game experiences, developers no longer appear to dream "We want to make a great game".  That seems to be a secondary (or tertiary) dream behind "Let's make a lot of money" or "Let's get famous."  Developer motivations seem definitely askew.  When the dreams changed, I don't know.

    Like you said, dreams are definitely good.  Maybe we players are simply asking the wrong people to make the games.



    I don't think that's true for all devs. I believe that plenty of them are starry eyed nerds that love to dream big. Much like the OP here.

    Unfortunately, everything you said DOES hold true for the people who control the money. AKA publishers like EA and such who are all about bottom lines and ROI's.

    Which is again where the problem lies. If they don't see the merit in it, it won't happen.

    Well... that's where the Kickstarters came from... but they don't exactly have a great track record either so far.
    AlBQuirky

    My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)

    https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/

  • ultimateduckultimateduck Member RarePosts: 777
    How far do you want world simulation to go?
    If you work your way through a dungeon, and you see reliefs carved on walls, do you want them to be worth looking at? To tell a story? Reveal some Lore? 
    And if you get to the evil Mage at the end, defeat him, and find a Crystal Ball on his table, do you want it to actually have some magical effect that you can check out? Scrying of some sort? And do you want to be able to take that Crystal Ball and use it yourself? 

    Do you like levers that open doors or cause other things to work? How about buttons or smallish things to push, that cause something to open or move? 

    What kind of simulations do you want in MMORPGs? How far do you want it to go? Everywhere or just in a few places as you travel through the game? 

    I want my world simulation to be pretty immersive, which is why I love VR. I think a lot of interaction is cool for immersion. Even if pulling a lever breaks it off or only opens a small empty (or not) cubby next to it, it should still be pull-able. Killing the wizard and seeing a crystal ball should give you, if nothing else, a crystal ball trophy for your house.
    And there can be multiple trophies. A magical painting, a floor mirror, a water basin for scrying, special tomes, the list is long. That wizard could have had a secret chamber that was opened by pulling the drawers of his desk open in a certain order. (Think 'National Treasure, Book Of Secrets'.) 

    World interaction has never been a strong suit of MMOs. It's been reserved more so for single player RPGs. I like it. I think things like trophies keep potentially dead areas alive. A quest line may be dead due to expansions, but if the end mob drops a cool trophy for your house, people may still do them. This is why I like VR so much. I feels the same as the indie developed MMOs of the early 2000s where they are making games, not just to make money, but to experiment with what can be done, like tactile environments.

  • iixviiiixiixviiiix Member RarePosts: 2,131
    I have to say that graphic hold back the simulation , because you need to graphically show of the simulation instead of using concept or words to tell . And that's expensive + heavy.


    AlBQuirky
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,202
    edited January 13
    iixviiiix said:
    I have to say that graphic hold back the simulation , because you need to graphically show of the simulation instead of using concept or words to tell . And that's expensive + heavy.


    That depends on how much the Devs want to stick into it. 
    Most, or even all, of the art is in the game already, and all they're doing is make it spin, rotate, flip, open like a door, etc. 
    Much more can be actual added stuff, of course, or existing spell effects and whatnot can be used. 
    So it doesn't have to be expensive, or it can be if the Devs want to spend the money and add unique things that aren't already there. 

    Once upon a time....

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