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World Simulation

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  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,847
    edited December 2019
    Why is it not super obvious to everyone that people just play because they want stuff?
    RMT...cash shops are thriving in this industry because they know the players just want stuff and will even hand over loads of money to get it,matter of fact more money than sub based games could ever imagine.
    How can we get better game designs when this is the trend,answer is we won't so perhaps the genre is dead for now.

    So what needs to happen is some person in a studio needs to think of a NEW cash grab idea that also happens to cater to better game design,very unlikely but possible.Unlikely because the money people behind these games will simply imply that a better game is not needed,THIS is what sells now so let's keep doing it until people stop playing and spending.
    AlBQuirkyScotbcbullySteelhelm

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,191
    Wizardry said:
    The superficial gamer,which btw are MOST that are playing mmorpg's right now ,will simply ignore anything and everything that is not loot based.
    I bet less than 1% are playing for the immersion of the world or the FUN of the game,they play because their shallow goal is levels and the bigger goal is the BEST loot.

    So even if a developer gave us loads of content,tons of side branches,several ways to customize our character,people would still go for the best loot and ignore everything else the developer put effort into.

    So we are stuck because the vast majority are shallow non mmo/rpg gamer's,they are as some have mentioned over many threads,just people with goals in mind.So naturally if this shallow gaming sells,that is what devs will keep delivering because it also happens ot be the cheapest and easiest to design,so easy mode money for the devs.
    I don't agree. For one thing, there's a whole bunch of people who have pretty much given up on this current form of MMORPGs. And that's a huge market to go after for anyone wanting to make that old fashioned sort of game, with atmosphere and depth. 
    GdemamiAsm0deusbcbully

    Once upon a time....

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,191
    Wizardry said:
    Why is it not super obvious to everyone that people just play because they want stuff?
    RMT...cash shops are thriving in this industry because they know the players just want stuff and will even hand over loads of money to get it,matter of fact more money than sub based games could ever imagine.
    How can we get better game designs when this is the trend,answer is we won't so perhaps the genre is dead for now.

    So what needs to happen is some person in a studio needs to think of a NEW cash grab idea that also happens to cater to better game design,very unlikely but possible.Unlikely because the money people behind these games will simply imply that a better game is not needed,THIS is what sells now so let's keep doing it until people stop playing and spending.
    Sometimes the answer is to build a better mouse trap. And I'm not talking about a better Cash Shop sort of game. 
    You've seen people post here about their negative feelings over this current trend. Why are you ignoring that? 

    I'll tell you a suspicion of mine. That all that money moving through RMT markets, including Whales, is mostly RMTers feeding on themselves. Buying built characters and top gear for levels so they can script for more to sell themselves. A vicious little circle of big fish eating little fish, until the little guppies get big, then sell to the others who are starting a new line for expansion. 
    And most gamers are like...WTF? 
    Gdemami

    Once upon a time....

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,247
    Wizardry said:
    The superficial gamer,which btw are MOST that are playing mmorpg's right now ,will simply ignore anything and everything that is not loot based.
    I bet less than 1% are playing for the immersion of the world or the FUN of the game,they play because their shallow goal is levels and the bigger goal is the BEST loot.

    So even if a developer gave us loads of content,tons of side branches,several ways to customize our character,people would still go for the best loot and ignore everything else the developer put effort into.

    So we are stuck because the vast majority are shallow non mmo/rpg gamer's,they are as some have mentioned over many threads,just people with goals in mind.So naturally if this shallow gaming sells,that is what devs will keep delivering because it also happens ot be the cheapest and easiest to design,so easy mode money for the devs.
    I don't agree. For one thing, there's a whole bunch of people who have pretty much given up on this current form of MMORPGs. And that's a huge market to go after for anyone wanting to make that old fashioned sort of game, with atmosphere and depth. 
    Do you think this untapped market is bigger then the one they already have?

    I hate poo-pooing your great ideas for MMORPGs, but the reality is this is no longer a hobby. It is big business (main stream) and the bottom line is dollars, not "fun", innovation, or even good games. Money rules all right now.

    I hope that before I die, this genre will crash and burn, then something niche and hobby-based rises from the ashes.
    Azaron_NightbladePo_ggTuor7Gdemami

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,191
    AlBQuirky said:
    Wizardry said:
    The superficial gamer,which btw are MOST that are playing mmorpg's right now ,will simply ignore anything and everything that is not loot based.
    I bet less than 1% are playing for the immersion of the world or the FUN of the game,they play because their shallow goal is levels and the bigger goal is the BEST loot.

    So even if a developer gave us loads of content,tons of side branches,several ways to customize our character,people would still go for the best loot and ignore everything else the developer put effort into.

    So we are stuck because the vast majority are shallow non mmo/rpg gamer's,they are as some have mentioned over many threads,just people with goals in mind.So naturally if this shallow gaming sells,that is what devs will keep delivering because it also happens ot be the cheapest and easiest to design,so easy mode money for the devs.
    I don't agree. For one thing, there's a whole bunch of people who have pretty much given up on this current form of MMORPGs. And that's a huge market to go after for anyone wanting to make that old fashioned sort of game, with atmosphere and depth. 
    Do you think this untapped market is bigger then the one they already have?

    I hate poo-pooing your great ideas for MMORPGs, but the reality is this is no longer a hobby. It is big business (main stream) and the bottom line is dollars, not "fun", innovation, or even good games. Money rules all right now.

    I hope that before I die, this genre will crash and burn, then something niche and hobby-based rises from the ashes.
    Yeah, when you consider all the gamers that aren't playing MMORPGs but are playing other games, plus a huge number who aren't really "gamers" but have tried MMORPGs (and found them so lacking), and all those who no longer game because it's just so "lowest common denominator", I think there is a huge market in waiting. That may not be as big as the world wide RMT types, but huge none the less. 

    The secret is to make it not only very entertaining, but it also needs to be playable by casuals, as well as have a depth that offers intensity but isn't required by the casuals to keep up. 
    At it's foundation, it has to be a game for the joy of playing (again). 

    Not everyone is into it to make money, not by a long shot. These games have been degraded badly by the RMT demands, easy pickings for less than quality developers who understand what can best be described as "black market." Those types of people/devs, they aren't ever going to make a great MMORPG. All they do is copy poorly and slap on this business RMT end to it. 
    What do you think, are there gamers who are ready for a real game made by actual game developers with a love for the dream? 
    AlBQuirkyGdemami

    Once upon a time....

  • Azaron_NightbladeAzaron_Nightblade Member EpicPosts: 4,825
    AlBQuirky said:
    Wizardry said:
    The superficial gamer,which btw are MOST that are playing mmorpg's right now ,will simply ignore anything and everything that is not loot based.
    I bet less than 1% are playing for the immersion of the world or the FUN of the game,they play because their shallow goal is levels and the bigger goal is the BEST loot.

    So even if a developer gave us loads of content,tons of side branches,several ways to customize our character,people would still go for the best loot and ignore everything else the developer put effort into.

    So we are stuck because the vast majority are shallow non mmo/rpg gamer's,they are as some have mentioned over many threads,just people with goals in mind.So naturally if this shallow gaming sells,that is what devs will keep delivering because it also happens ot be the cheapest and easiest to design,so easy mode money for the devs.
    I don't agree. For one thing, there's a whole bunch of people who have pretty much given up on this current form of MMORPGs. And that's a huge market to go after for anyone wanting to make that old fashioned sort of game, with atmosphere and depth. 
    Do you think this untapped market is bigger then the one they already have?

    I hate poo-pooing your great ideas for MMORPGs, but the reality is this is no longer a hobby. It is big business (main stream) and the bottom line is dollars, not "fun", innovation, or even good games. Money rules all right now.

    I hope that before I die, this genre will crash and burn, then something niche and hobby-based rises from the ashes.
    Yeah, when you consider all the gamers that aren't playing MMORPGs but are playing other games, plus a huge number who aren't really "gamers" but have tried MMORPGs (and found them so lacking), and all those who no longer game because it's just so "lowest common denominator", I think there is a huge market in waiting. That may not be as big as the world wide RMT types, but huge none the less. 

    The secret is to make it not only very entertaining, but it also needs to be playable by casuals, as well as have a depth that offers intensity but isn't required by the casuals to keep up. 
    At it's foundation, it has to be a game for the joy of playing (again). 

    Not everyone is into it to make money, not by a long shot. These games have been degraded badly by the RMT demands, easy pickings for less than quality developers who understand what can best be described as "black market." Those types of people/devs, they aren't ever going to make a great MMORPG. All they do is copy poorly and slap on this business RMT end to it. 
    What do you think, are there gamers who are ready for a real game made by actual game developers with a love for the dream? 
    The ones who aren't in it for the money aldo tend to suffer from not HAVING the kind of money to do a project of the scope you're hoping for, with the prospect of having a very small ROI to look forward to.

    You don't have to agree. The fact that pretty much everyone on here agrees that you're wrong pretty much speaks volumes by itself.
    Po_gg

    My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)

    https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 13,317
    edited December 2019
    Wizardry is partly right, because todays MMOs are training players to want to play MMOs their way. If you have only ever played a quick fix DING!-MMO why would you slow down and look around for anything more in the next one? But I have more hope, not just that old timers like us may help form a player base in a new lore rich KS. Those kids who just want ding-stuff, they may well end up wanting more, at least the depth they see in solo games being in new MMOs again. 
    Po_ggAlBQuirkyGdemamiAsm0deus

     25 Agrees

    You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!

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  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,191
    AlBQuirky said:
    Wizardry said:
    The superficial gamer,which btw are MOST that are playing mmorpg's right now ,will simply ignore anything and everything that is not loot based.
    I bet less than 1% are playing for the immersion of the world or the FUN of the game,they play because their shallow goal is levels and the bigger goal is the BEST loot.

    So even if a developer gave us loads of content,tons of side branches,several ways to customize our character,people would still go for the best loot and ignore everything else the developer put effort into.

    So we are stuck because the vast majority are shallow non mmo/rpg gamer's,they are as some have mentioned over many threads,just people with goals in mind.So naturally if this shallow gaming sells,that is what devs will keep delivering because it also happens ot be the cheapest and easiest to design,so easy mode money for the devs.
    I don't agree. For one thing, there's a whole bunch of people who have pretty much given up on this current form of MMORPGs. And that's a huge market to go after for anyone wanting to make that old fashioned sort of game, with atmosphere and depth. 
    Do you think this untapped market is bigger then the one they already have?

    I hate poo-pooing your great ideas for MMORPGs, but the reality is this is no longer a hobby. It is big business (main stream) and the bottom line is dollars, not "fun", innovation, or even good games. Money rules all right now.

    I hope that before I die, this genre will crash and burn, then something niche and hobby-based rises from the ashes.
    Yeah, when you consider all the gamers that aren't playing MMORPGs but are playing other games, plus a huge number who aren't really "gamers" but have tried MMORPGs (and found them so lacking), and all those who no longer game because it's just so "lowest common denominator", I think there is a huge market in waiting. That may not be as big as the world wide RMT types, but huge none the less. 

    The secret is to make it not only very entertaining, but it also needs to be playable by casuals, as well as have a depth that offers intensity but isn't required by the casuals to keep up. 
    At it's foundation, it has to be a game for the joy of playing (again). 

    Not everyone is into it to make money, not by a long shot. These games have been degraded badly by the RMT demands, easy pickings for less than quality developers who understand what can best be described as "black market." Those types of people/devs, they aren't ever going to make a great MMORPG. All they do is copy poorly and slap on this business RMT end to it. 
    What do you think, are there gamers who are ready for a real game made by actual game developers with a love for the dream? 
    The ones who aren't in it for the money aldo tend to suffer from not HAVING the kind of money to do a project of the scope you're hoping for, with the prospect of having a very small ROI to look forward to.

    You don't have to agree. The fact that pretty much everyone on here agrees that you're wrong pretty much speaks volumes by itself.
    Pft! I'm not deterred by what "everyone think." People are very often wrong, especially when there's an agenda being pushed for large dollars and that's all they hear. 
    Azaron_NightbladeAlBQuirkyGdemami

    Once upon a time....

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,191
    Scot said:
    Wizardry is partly right, because todays MMOs are training players to want to play MMOs their way. If you have only ever played a quick fix DING!-MMO why would you slow down and look around for anything more in the next one? But I have more hope, not just that old timers like us may help form a player base in a new lore rich KS. Those kids who just want ding-stuff, they may well end up wanting more, at least the depth they see in solo games being in new MMOs again. 

    That's just it. There's years of gamers who have come along, many have left MMORPGs, and each year's worth of those who left, it adds up. 
    What "huge" means in this context, I don't know. But I'd risk a conservative estimate of at least 1 million who would be very loyal to such a game. 
    I mean think about it, you twist the hand on a Dungeon Ruins statue and it moves, do you open a hidden room full of tricks-or-treasures or drop through a trap door and use a "Jump Scroll" to get out, or wind your way around tunnels to an opening in the room above? Multiplied by thousands. And maybe that depends on the phase of the moon. 
    AlBQuirkyGdemamiScot

    Once upon a time....

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 28,614
    edited December 2019

    Scot said:
    Wizardry is partly right, because todays MMOs are training players to want to play MMOs their way. If you have only ever played a quick fix DING!-MMO why would you slow down and look around for anything more in the next one? But I have more hope, not just that old timers like us may help form a player base in a new lore rich KS. Those kids who just want ding-stuff, they may well end up wanting more, at least the depth they see in solo games being in new MMOs again. 

    Except some players have always wanted to play "their way" and spent loads of money on ebay to get items as well as playing others to level their character. This was in Everquest. Maybe examples in Ultima? Don't know.

    Nothing has changed except that the developers finally gave in because others were making money off their work.

    The players who were willing to spend money on items and leveling and gold were the people who showed developers and secondary parties that there was a market for this type of play/transaction.


    Azaron_NightbladeOctagon7711AlBQuirkymmolouGdemami
  • Azaron_NightbladeAzaron_Nightblade Member EpicPosts: 4,825
    Sovrath said:

    Scot said:
    Wizardry is partly right, because todays MMOs are training players to want to play MMOs their way. If you have only ever played a quick fix DING!-MMO why would you slow down and look around for anything more in the next one? But I have more hope, not just that old timers like us may help form a player base in a new lore rich KS. Those kids who just want ding-stuff, they may well end up wanting more, at least the depth they see in solo games being in new MMOs again. 

    Except some players have always wanted to play "their way" and spent loads of money on ebay to get items as well as playing others to level their character. This was in Everquest. Maybe examples in Ultima? Don't know.

    Nothing has changed except that the developers finally gave in because others were making money off their work.

    The players who were willing to spend money on items and leveling and gold were the people who showed developers and secondary parties that there was a market for this type of play/transaction.


    Even on Diablo 2. The RMT market for some items was huge. Hence Blizzard trying to monetize an AH on D3 when it first launched.
    SovrathAlBQuirky

    My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)

    https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/

  • GutlardGutlard Member RarePosts: 1,019
    My 4yo just brought me the phone, asking how to get Thanos in this Marvel game, and I said I think you have to buy him with real money, and he said I want to buy him now. This seriously just happened...

    And the mechanics in these filler/play-on-the-toilet/short commuter/shallow/shovelware games have been steadily creeping into MMORPG's over the years. They need to stay on mobile...

    Big money, big prizes, training the new generation to buy their ways around GAMEPLAY any way they can. The main/most important component of videogames, and you can buy your way around it?!?! And you want to?! What's wrong with this picture?

    I'd want a MMORPG to have tons of layers like an onion, and leave it up to the player on how many layers they want to peel back. Some power levelers would only get down a few layers, and move on, and that's fine for them. I'd want to dig down to the core of the damned thing.

    I keep hearing how deep Disco Elysium is, and how much the world can be interacted with, and I'd want something like that, but I'm not sure how that could work in a world with lots of players interacting with everything. It's not the biggest world, but being able to interact with so many different things makes it feel more real.

    TL;DR I want a MMORPG with many layers like an onion, but the current reality is that those layers would be locked behind a paywall/cash shop/RNG Loot box....  :s :( :'(

    Gut Out!
    AlBQuirkyGdemami

    What, me worry?

  • Po_ggPo_gg Member EpicPosts: 5,210
    edited December 2019
    What "huge" means in this context, I don't know. But I'd risk a conservative estimate of at least 1 million who would be very loyal to such a game.
    I'm afraid the actual number is way lower. Just think back, even at the glory days of the genre we (the lore hounds, the roleplayers, explorers, etc. who were interested in those details and mechanics) were the minority... and even if ALL the veteran players would be like that (which is not the case), that still would be just a small fraction of the gaming population, since as Al said above, gaming ain't a hobby anymore, it's a large business in entertainment, and literally everyone with a mobile in the pocket is a gamer now.


    And that makes the whole arm-wrestling on numbers as moot. It doesn't matter if there's such a group or not, if they're small or large, nobody besides a few starry-eyed indie would jump into a project like that - and as Azaron said those indies might have the drive and the enthusiasm, but sure don't have the money...

    Or more bluntly (and using the fairly exaggerated 1 million as an example), nobody will spend X amount of money and Y months of development time on something which MIGHT peak the interest of 1 million notoriously nitpicky gamers, with a wide array of interest in different mechanics, writing etc., and are joyfully mean on criticizing every little mistake

    while they also can:
    with the same resources, much safely and at lower risk developing a shallow, generic but awesome looking action game to a much wider and more "docile" audience (to compare that 1 million, just the yearly FIFA games go over 20 million usually), or
    the same resources are enough for several mobile games, with even lower risk for the reward.


    But again, the demand side is nowhere near to a million, sadly. And it's dwindling, simply due to the age. We're getting older, and Scot's right, there's no reinforcement after us... no real MMORPG was released in 5+ years, the "main" target group of gaming grew up on action games and Minecraft videos, and knows nothing about roleplaying - or worse, thinks it equals Diablo.

    In this environment nobody, besides a few indies and lunatics (in a good way, hi there SoL devs :) ) are working on MMORPGs, let alone a detail-rich, lore-heavy living world MMORPG. And even they are struggling and progressing slowly....
    Azaron_NightbladeAlBQuirky
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,354
    Scot said:
    Wizardry is partly right, because todays MMOs are training players to want to play MMOs their way. If you have only ever played a quick fix DING!-MMO why would you slow down and look around for anything more in the next one? But I have more hope, not just that old timers like us may help form a player base in a new lore rich KS. Those kids who just want ding-stuff, they may well end up wanting more, at least the depth they see in solo games being in new MMOs again. 

    That's just it. There's years of gamers who have come along, many have left MMORPGs, and each year's worth of those who left, it adds up. 
    What "huge" means in this context, I don't know. But I'd risk a conservative estimate of at least 1 million who would be very loyal to such a game. 
    I mean think about it, you twist the hand on a Dungeon Ruins statue and it moves, do you open a hidden room full of tricks-or-treasures or drop through a trap door and use a "Jump Scroll" to get out, or wind your way around tunnels to an opening in the room above? Multiplied by thousands. And maybe that depends on the phase of the moon. 
    Are you still immersive the second time you go there again? 

    The second time you go there again what you are thinking is "how do I get to the loot as effective as possible in as little time as possible".  
    AlBQuirkyGdemami
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,099
    Lack of world simulation is why I really stopped playing MMORPG completely.  Most MMORPG just seem excuses to push microtransactions on us.  Not that they won't push them in single player games.  

    Have zero interest in playing another shallow themepark or mob grinder.
    AlBQuirky
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,191
    AAAMEOW said:
    Scot said:
    Wizardry is partly right, because todays MMOs are training players to want to play MMOs their way. If you have only ever played a quick fix DING!-MMO why would you slow down and look around for anything more in the next one? But I have more hope, not just that old timers like us may help form a player base in a new lore rich KS. Those kids who just want ding-stuff, they may well end up wanting more, at least the depth they see in solo games being in new MMOs again. 

    That's just it. There's years of gamers who have come along, many have left MMORPGs, and each year's worth of those who left, it adds up. 
    What "huge" means in this context, I don't know. But I'd risk a conservative estimate of at least 1 million who would be very loyal to such a game. 
    I mean think about it, you twist the hand on a Dungeon Ruins statue and it moves, do you open a hidden room full of tricks-or-treasures or drop through a trap door and use a "Jump Scroll" to get out, or wind your way around tunnels to an opening in the room above? Multiplied by thousands. And maybe that depends on the phase of the moon. 
    Are you still immersive the second time you go there again? 

    The second time you go there again what you are thinking is "how do I get to the loot as effective as possible in as little time as possible".  
    Well, I'm trying to answer this without a wall of text. 
    One key to making it at it's best is having a world with Wandering MOBs, and in SOME Dungeons when it's cleared, it remians cleared, until a new power base Wanders in and takes over. 
    That doesn't mean the Dungeon is empty. There should always be a certain MOB type typical for each Dungeon that respawns. Think of it as a new ruler, making a typical Dungeon into something more until defeated. 

    So, with change of "rulers" can come changes to these mechanisms. Hidden rooms and passages should stay the same most of the time, but the thing you pull or do something to can change. This would have to be done by GMs as new content. That's a lot easier than making all new lands, spells and abilities, and another 5 levels. It's like refreshing content.
    Also, entirely new hidden stuff can be added. I explained how easy this is, compared to all new stuff. 

    So, Dungeons, Ruins, and other content can be easily (comparitively) changed to be "new" as far as game play. 

    Some of it may not change for a long time. That adds "realism" and adds to the history of the players playing the game. A running history of things discovered and what happened. 

    Some of it can be converted into traps. Imagine a Lich King taking over a Dungeon, filling it with undead of all types, and summoning a powerful Demon to stick inside that old "treasure room." 

    You know, use some imagination and see what you could do with this tool and existing content to make it interesting and fun in a Worldly Game. On an ongoing basis. 
    Please forget all you've learned (been indoctinated into) from these 
    *static* 
    games of Quest grinds. 
    AlBQuirkyGdemami

    Once upon a time....

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,191
    Remember too, not all of this is about secret rooms and treasures and such.  A lot of it would be for things like drawbridges and spinning bridges, simply opening huge metal doors and the like, turning on/off stuff, opening vaults, etc. Not secret or hidden stuff, just worldly interaction stuff all over the place. 
    AlBQuirky

    Once upon a time....

  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,354
    edited December 2019
    What you write sounds really good in words.  Kind of like GW2 sales pitch.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oit0gBEWHo

    In reality all you got is quest running in loop, while there are different outcomes, it certainly didn't play as interesting as it sounds.

    So my take is games like that exist already.  But it is so lame it didn't reach your expectation so you think it don't exist.  

    So my question is have you ever play a game which even give you a glimpse of what you trying to achieve in words?
    AlBQuirky
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 13,317
    edited January 11
    Sovrath said:

    Scot said:
    Wizardry is partly right, because todays MMOs are training players to want to play MMOs their way. If you have only ever played a quick fix DING!-MMO why would you slow down and look around for anything more in the next one? But I have more hope, not just that old timers like us may help form a player base in a new lore rich KS. Those kids who just want ding-stuff, they may well end up wanting more, at least the depth they see in solo games being in new MMOs again. 

    Except some players have always wanted to play "their way" and spent loads of money on ebay to get items as well as playing others to level their character. This was in Everquest. Maybe examples in Ultima? Don't know.

    Nothing has changed except that the developers finally gave in because others were making money off their work.

    The players who were willing to spend money on items and leveling and gold were the people who showed developers and secondary parties that there was a market for this type of play/transaction.


    There was a once the genie was out of the bottle situation when it came to monetarisation, but games can be built another way. Fortnite still as far as I know just sells costumes, you don't have to make games that sell game breaking items. Could that be replicated in a MMO, is it essential?  ESO launched as a subscription game only five years ago, are we saying that just could not happen now? To counter secondary parties, bind to account goes a long to way to sorting the issue. 
    Post edited by Scot on
    AlBQuirkyGdemami

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    You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!

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    Now Doesn't That Make You Feel All Warm And Fuzzy Inside? :P

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,247
    What do you think, are there gamers who are ready for a real game made by actual game developers with a love for the dream? 
    Certain sure. There have always been players that yearn for that. They aren't being served very well these days, though.

    But remember, mainstream means both popular and accessible to the masses. Gaming is raking in more money today than ever before. It stopped being a hobby long ago.

    I'll be quiet. I do enjoy your ideas and fresh look on this stagnant industry :)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,847
    edited December 2019
    To cut it short...

    Simulation can be achieved by adding in survival designs plus immersive ideas like Eco systems,weather effects and world interaction.

    So my perfect game and the first ever AAA would be a sort of FFXI/UO/Atlas plus tweaks/additions type design.

    You see a rake you can pick it up and use it.You see a rock,yep can pick it up and throw it.
    To be able to build the first AAA mmorpg,we would of course need restrictions,many of them.Restrictions on server capacity,restrictions on pvp,restrictions on building etc etc.

    We might end up with less than what some would call a MMO,but if we have even 5k-10k people on a server,to me that is way more MMO than games that have players hanging out in instances and have zero world interaction.There is a LOT that should go into the thought of building a mmorpg,sadly most games just look like they came off an assembly line,very superficial leveling/looting games and VERY little to do with rpg or mmo.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • anemoanemo Member RarePosts: 1,894
    While not your "lore" world.   Screeps does live the NPC world thing of 10k+ player owned NPCs all doing their own productive thing 24/7.   Whether its building, maintenance, or attacking.

    Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.

    "At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,191
    I just wanted to thank you people who showed some support for the concept of a better "world" to play in. It's appreciated. 
    Maybe some day it will happen. Where else are MMORPGs going to go? 
    (I'm sure someone will come up with some loony ideas, though. lol)
    Mendel

    Once upon a time....

  • Hawkaya399Hawkaya399 Member UncommonPosts: 564
    edited January 3
    I want to see simulation thing. Some of the first PC games I played (early HS) were military simulation. From then on I preferred simulation elements. I also played open world rpgs/adventure and sandbox strategy games. I've always preferred content to be generated by the computer rather than handmade by developers. This is tied somewhat to simulation, although content doesn't have to be simulation to be procedural. Handmade content gets boring faster for me. Its replayability is lower. Diablo is a good example of a game I liked. Also the dungeons in Daggerfall. Just knowing a person made it lowers my interest. Part of the reason is because I'm a longtime programmer. I started programming almost immediately when we got our PC (when I was a sophmore). Knowing that a computer is making the content increases my interest. The other reason might be handmade content tends to be more linear. Handmade content tends to be story-based and story-based games were always boring to me.

    Just to give an example, some recent games I've spent money on are Just Cause2/3, Mafia III, Watch Dogs 2 and Assassins Creed Syndicate. I didn't buy these games because I like punching, stabbing or shooting people. No. I like to watch the crowds. I like to immerse in the city. More than anything, I love to watch the traffic and pedestrians. I love it when they interact with each other without my involvement. That's what I wnat. I get these games just for this alone. I also recently got Life is Feudal: Forest Village. Why? Because the NPCs do things mostly on their own and because I can enter first person and immerse in their world. The simulation is weak, but it's fun to watch them do their jobs. I just wish they had more autonomy (better AI). Unending Galaxy is another impressive game I got just to play AND interact. There're ten to twenty thousand simulated agents in the galaxy in real-time. It's fun to watch it unfold. Almost none of it's abstacted. This is unlike games where things are abstracted, like Drox Operative. In Drox Operative, only the agents near the player at simulated. Outside the range of the player only the empire agents are simulated. And it's VERY unlike games where ONLY agents near the player are simulated. An example of this would be Reassembly. Once agents are outside the player's range, they freeze and their state never changes until the player is nearby again. The developer state the way the game was coded didn't allow more agents to be simulated because it would overwhelm the CPU. However players CAN change a variable to increase the range beyond the player where agents will be simulated.

    Oh ya I love Dwarf Fortress for what it does. I don't necessarily love text graphics. I did play Dwarf Fortress for a while and started to mod it. It's an AMAZING game. Its history is simulated. It's very impressive. The entire world has a history. Everything is tied to a sequence of events. Every NPC is the product of a cascade of past events. It's NOT like a simple randomizing algorithm. It's much more than that. I might say the whole is larger tahn the sum of its parts. What I'm trying to get across here is roaming algorithms are no the same thing is randomizatin. A river that's constructed of erosion and water runoff is NOT the same thing as a random roll of the dice. The river has connections and a history. It's much more complex--and engrossing.

    Last night I started up Mafia 3 for some 1968 atmosphere. All I do is drive around and walk aroudn the city with his brother. I love it. It's amazing to pretend I'm there. I can hear radios playing and see people doing things. It blows me away how far we've come. The immersion is broken somewhat when NPCs disappear forever or traffic accidents vanish when I walk around the block. We still have a long ways to go, but OMG it's getting there.

    It's looking almost real and starting to--in its baby stages--behave like it too. I notice some people taking it for granted, or maybe they just don't appreciate it. VR and motion tracking is getting good. This isn't 1990 anymore. Right now it's expensive and inconvenient, but they're achieving science fictions experimentally. It's not on the consumer end yet--except things like Oculus (which is amazing on its own). Folks, we're on approach to something verging on the insanity of a singularity. Ok maybe not that crazy, but something almost like the Matrix movies where people are "hooked up" to a computer and fully absorbed into an alternate reality. What does that mean? How will it affect reality? How will it affect us. Will it be a utopian coexistence between humans and technology? The race is on between us and our innovations. Will we keep pace with automation or fall behind. How much of our humanness will survive.

    Real AI and real physics and real graphics in real-time is some way off, but the illusion of a realistic world is much closer. And THIS is what I'm alerting everyone too. It's getting close! It doesn't have to perfectly match reality to seem real. At some future point, you'll need the equivalent of a PHD to break the illusion! At that point, I'm not sure what reality is because a lot of us will be mixed up in all hte alternate ones. Where they all meet will probably be the reality. A weird hybrid reality.

    some other games in my steam library:
    X3: Albion Prelude (GREAT with mods)
    Space Rangers HD: A War Apart
    Mount and Blade: With Fire and Sword (and Warband)
    Empyrion: Galactic Survival
    Deus Ex: Mankind Divided (I got it for the crowds, but it's small scale story world. I'll have to advance the plot to see more areas)

    There're some more I'd like to get. Maybe I'll getreality sometime :0
    Post edited by Hawkaya399 on
    AmarantharGiarclenScotAlBQuirky
  • JemcrystalJemcrystal Member UncommonPosts: 1,939
    Simulation works best in single player not mmorpg.  Truck Simulator is probably the best sim for it's genre.  Sims require way to much data have bloated files just not conducive to a lagless mmorpg full of open world players.  

    If players insisted it for an mmo I would restrict it to instances with mini-games.  You can simulate anything if you quarantine it.  Put to a dungeon of 12 players or less.  Put it's access in housing.  Simulate a torture chamber.  Simulate a fully functioning medieval kitchen.  Simulate a guillotine beheading.  Simulate a campfire pit gathering with popcorn and smores invite your friends and get a week long xp buff.  Just zone it off.

    Make them cash shop grabs each of these little sim zones.  People would rage but corps need an extra income.  Just stop selling cash shop items for $15+ (usa currency).  Instead keep them under $7; never go above 7 no reason no how no greed.  And give the players spending points for playing (not tradable in game currency) they could use only in cash shop.  They could choose to play instead of pay and still get the goods.

    Make well over 100 simulation instances.  If client's files get bloated because they took to much that's on them.  As in do not drop the Simulated Instance with the main game; SEPARATE DOWNLOADS.  Stop this everyone gets the download whether or not they buy the dlc crap.  

    And if that is just to much then set game for mods.  Tote them a few example instances to get the modders started.  

    So no more, *cry cry* "this game is to big!"
    AlBQuirkyAzaron_Nightblade


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