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What do you expect from a PvE battle?

AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,380
Let's say you, or you and your group, encounter 3 large even con bees. You fight them and after a while you kill all 3.

For that battle to live up to your expectations, what needed to happen?

A weapons/gear/level check (these may not be the bees you are looking for with that outfit, noobmeister)?

Some eye/hand coordination (bees can only be hit in the abdomen kind of thing).

Situational awareness (don't stand in the red)?

Ability choice/rotation?

Use of limiting debuffs and crowd control?

Here is where I think I may be different than some:  I just want to feel like I fought three tough bees, and was lucky to defeat them.  If I do, that makes me feel like I am in a fantasy world populated by, among other things, scary bees. 

I don't care about the mathematics or the strategy so much. Sure, I'm a team player, and will play my role and character as expected by my group. 

But in terms of what pleases me, it's more like fishing. I hope the fish jumps and thrashes and puts the outcome in doubt somehow, so catching the fish means something. And I want the fight to be sufficiently engaging that I forget these are merely pixelated bees. 


EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

ChimborazoAlBQuirky
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Comments

  • cameltosiscameltosis Member EpicPosts: 2,605
    The main thing I want out of any combat encounter is to know that my actions and decision making are what caused me to either win or lose. I must be either making a decision or taking action regularly to keep me engaged.


    Basically, I want my combat mechanics to have depth. Sadly, depth in combat doesn't seem to be very popular. Early MMOs didn't have it, they were still learning how to build MMORPGs. We had a few years where depth started to appear (vanilla lotro, war and others), but then some shitty games killed it off. Games like SWTOR which is shallow as fuck made a lot of people equate toolbars/tab-target mechanics with boring combat. So, these days all we get is action combat, which is even shallower. Depth no longer exists in the minute to minute combat, but has instead been moved to the meta-game (builds, stats, traits etc). Whilst I do indeed enjoy a deep meta-game too, it doesn't provide much fun.

    MendelAlBQuirky
  • GutlardGutlard Member RarePosts: 1,019
    • I want it to mean something.
    • Inch me that much closer to improving as a character/hero somehow.
    • Get something out of it, whether it's a rare crafting material, or more knowledge about that type of bee that could make future encounters a little easier, or could i add their giant stingers to my elbow armor?
    • Hopefully, I'd have multiple avenues to approach the fight, so depending on my mood, I could tackle it in any number of ways.
    • If my character is allergic to bees it could mean insta-death, so I'd have to plan accordingly, prbly by finding some way to beat it without having to engage it directly at all.
    • If the bee is big enough could I capture it for honey farming or possibly use it as a flying mount? (I see you Minecraft & WoW)
    • If I smoke bomb the bee will it fall asleep or weaken for an easier fight?
    How can all of this matter after the 10th or 100th fight? I wish there was a way to keep the same types of encounters engaging for a long time.

    Gut Out!
    AlBQuirky

    What, me worry?

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,357
    edited December 2019
    To win, progress my character and get phat loot of course, what other motivation is really needed?

    Fun, challenging, and engaging are all highly overrated concepts IMO.

    ;)
    AlBQuirky

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,380
    Kyleran said:
    To win, progress my character and get phat loot of course, what other motivation is really needed?

    Fun, challenging, and engaging are all highly overrated concepts IMO.

    ;)
    I'm still holding on to the RPG part by my fingernails. I want to feel like a ranger, in a forest, fighting fantasy creatures. 
    AlBQuirky

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,190
    The last thing I want to be thinking about is anything like those gamey points you listed. 
    I want to think about what I know of these beasts, look for patterns, and use strategy. 

    Your post, and this is no intended insult to you, reminds me of the terrible direction MMORPGs have gone. 

    AlBQuirky

    Once upon a time....

  • UtinniUtinni Member EpicPosts: 1,907
    I like it slow and uncomplicated. I play the newer games just fine but prefer the EQ slow combat with downtime. I play games to relax.
    KyleranAlBQuirkyAmathe
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,380
    The last thing I want to be thinking about is anything like those gamey points you listed. 
    I want to think about what I know of these beasts, look for patterns, and use strategy. 

    Your post, and this is no intended insult to you, reminds me of the terrible direction MMORPGs have gone. 

    Funny. I was thinking the same thing of you, but just had better manners than to say it. 

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • ChimborazoChimborazo Member UncommonPosts: 146
    This is very interesting!

    First I'd like it to be either : very unexpected, so the bees might ambush you (not appear from thin air, still ways to anticipate their attack of you are good) or if you are the one attacking the bees, be able to prepare properly. 

    I don't like grinding, but a bit of preparation (planning what to bring equipment wise etc) and a flexible approach (maybe you could use the environment to your advantage, bees might be in a mille of all field and you could burn the area etc).
    From the fight itself I want it to be quick : something I usually don't like in general about many RPG is that hard fights requires you to keep focused, learn a routine and execute it for 10 minutes until the gygantic hp bar of the boss is empty. I prefer a more realistic combat if you want, ofc you can avoid / block / dodge etc and the mob can do it too but it's brief and intense, 2/3 hits and you're down. 

    Reward wise : I want it to matter, and I want it to matter in a way that's built around maximizing fun.

    I think we should try to go past the idea that if you want a certain piece of reward there are only certain activities (that you might not even enjoy that much) that give you token to buy those, why don't we make a single "currency" that 6 you can increase by succeeding in almost any activity and then spend it on what you want? 


    Currently on: Guild Wars 2
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,190
    Amathe said:
    The last thing I want to be thinking about is anything like those gamey points you listed. 
    I want to think about what I know of these beasts, look for patterns, and use strategy. 

    Your post, and this is no intended insult to you, reminds me of the terrible direction MMORPGs have gone. 

    Funny. I was thinking the same thing of you, but just had better manners than to say it. 
    I'm kind of hurt by that. Is that the way I come across? I seriously don't know how to say what I think, meaning no ill will to anyone, and not say what I think. 

    I'm going to maybe send you a new car to make up for this slight. lol

    Once upon a time....

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,190
    edited December 2019
    This is very interesting!

    First I'd like it to be either : very unexpected, so the bees might ambush you (not appear from thin air, still ways to anticipate their attack of you are good) or if you are the one attacking the bees, be able to prepare properly. 

    I don't like grinding, but a bit of preparation (planning what to bring equipment wise etc) and a flexible approach (maybe you could use the environment to your advantage, bees might be in a mille of all field and you could burn the area etc).
    From the fight itself I want it to be quick : something I usually don't like in general about many RPG is that hard fights requires you to keep focused, learn a routine and execute it for 10 minutes until the gygantic hp bar of the boss is empty. I prefer a more realistic combat if you want, ofc you can avoid / block / dodge etc and the mob can do it too but it's brief and intense, 2/3 hits and you're down. 

    Reward wise : I want it to matter, and I want it to matter in a way that's built around maximizing fun.

    I think we should try to go past the idea that if you want a certain piece of reward there are only certain activities (that you might not even enjoy that much) that give you token to buy those, why don't we make a single "currency" that 6 you can increase by succeeding in almost any activity and then spend it on what you want? 


    I like surprises. Unexpected reactions. 
    I always thought that an AI that had some randomness to it, plus logical reactions like healing their buddy MOBs or Paralizing a Player who's chasing down an injured buddy, or just going all random and nuking a crowd that included their buds, really making things unexpected happen. 

    Also, Humanoid MOBs should use things, sometimes, that they normally don't use. Like grenades (explosion potions), whatever, like Players use. One of those Trolls could be a real renaissance Troll, you know? 
    And traps. Why not give MOBs the AI to lay out a trap that they can then use in battle? This could be "anywhere" (within guidelines in the code) and completely unexpected. A MOB could actually lead players into a trap during combat, while it's buddies know what to avoid. 

    I'd like to see MOBs have a group AI that does the typical, but then when things start going badly for the group, have a possibility that one or more MOBs break out and take on their own AI, acting more randomly based on situations, as in the examples I gave. 
    Chimborazo

    Once upon a time....

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,357
    Amathe said:
    Kyleran said:
    To win, progress my character and get phat loot of course, what other motivation is really needed?

    Fun, challenging, and engaging are all highly overrated concepts IMO.

    ;)
    I'm still holding on to the RPG part by my fingernails. I want to feel like a ranger, in a forest, fighting fantasy creatures. 
    I get you, I play Fallout games as training simulators for the inevitible holocaust which is one day incoming.

    ;)

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • iixviiiixiixviiiix Member RarePosts: 2,131
    I expect to be able to use many way to play with the NPC enemies

    For example

    Calm them to get pass them without fighting
    Chat with them
    Charm them to make they kill each other
    Scary them and make they runaways
    being invisible and get pass them
    Make them sleep
    Turn them sheep
    bound them with rope with BDSM theme
    Bribe them and get away
    Buy the loot from them
    Steal the loot from them
    Make friend with them
    Dress them up with sexy clothers .
    Make them strike funny pose or making a stupid dance
    Cook them up
    ect ...
    AlBQuirky
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,247
    A very fine mixture between strategy, depth, immersion (no 4th wall breaking please), information (mechanics and gameplay), variety, and most of all a sense of accomplishment/progression/getting better. This will only happen when I create a game, as in never :lol:

    I agree with some others' ideas, too. Capturing an animal would be awesome. What if we had to find and train our mounts? What if I want to "just talk?" No sorry, nobody talks in RPGs, right?

    I am rather sick of being ONLY a murderhobo. Can I be something else now? Please?
    Amaranthariixviiiix

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • ChimborazoChimborazo Member UncommonPosts: 146
    This is very interesting!

    First I'd like it to be either : very unexpected, so the bees might ambush you (not appear from thin air, still ways to anticipate their attack of you are good) or if you are the one attacking the bees, be able to prepare properly. 

    I don't like grinding, but a bit of preparation (planning what to bring equipment wise etc) and a flexible approach (maybe you could use the environment to your advantage, bees might be in a mille of all field and you could burn the area etc).
    From the fight itself I want it to be quick : something I usually don't like in general about many RPG is that hard fights requires you to keep focused, learn a routine and execute it for 10 minutes until the gygantic hp bar of the boss is empty. I prefer a more realistic combat if you want, ofc you can avoid / block / dodge etc and the mob can do it too but it's brief and intense, 2/3 hits and you're down. 

    Reward wise : I want it to matter, and I want it to matter in a way that's built around maximizing fun.

    I think we should try to go past the idea that if you want a certain piece of reward there are only certain activities (that you might not even enjoy that much) that give you token to buy those, why don't we make a single "currency" that 6 you can increase by succeeding in almost any activity and then spend it on what you want? 


    I like surprises. Unexpected reactions. 
    I always thought that an AI that had some randomness to it, plus logical reactions like healing their buddy MOBs or Paralizing a Player who's chasing down an injured buddy, or just going all random and nuking a crowd that included their buds, really making things unexpected happen. 

    Also, Humanoid MOBs should use things, sometimes, that they normally don't use. Like grenades (explosion potions), whatever, like Players use. One of those Trolls could be a real renaissance Troll, you know? 
    And traps. Why not give MOBs the AI to lay out a trap that they can then use in battle? This could be "anywhere" (within guidelines in the code) and completely unexpected. A MOB could actually lead players into a trap during combat, while it's buddies know what to avoid. 

    I'd like to see MOBs have a group AI that does the typical, but then when things start going badly for the group, have a possibility that one or more MOBs break out and take on their own AI, acting more randomly based on situations, as in the examples I gave. 
    I've played gw1 for many years, something that I appreciated is that mobs had the same classes the player can choose, healers included, not as many skills on the same type of mob but I think that was clever. 
    Amaranthar
    Currently on: Guild Wars 2
  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Member EpicPosts: 3,002
    "What do you expect from a PvE battle?"

    Lots and lots of targets. 


    "The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
    Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance

  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 7,671
    So if I am fighting an Orc and a lion adds to the fray, why does it always attack me and not the orc?
    AlBQuirky
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,380
    edited December 2019
    I am wondering how long until you just mouse over the monsters and click a button that says "KILL - $12." You could just buy your way through all the battles. That has to be in the works somewhere. 
    iixviiiixPhaserlightAlBQuirky

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • AeanderAeander Member LegendaryPosts: 5,938
    I like having to adapt to buffs/debuffs and other mechanics on an intellectual level.

    But failing that, I'll settle for content that is dynamic and spontaneous.
    AlBQuirky
  • GutlardGutlard Member RarePosts: 1,019
    Amathe said:
    The last thing I want to be thinking about is anything like those gamey points you listed. 
    I want to think about what I know of these beasts, look for patterns, and use strategy. 

    Your post, and this is no intended insult to you, reminds me of the terrible direction MMORPGs have gone. 

    Funny. I was thinking the same thing of you, but just had better manners than to say it. 
    I'm kind of hurt by that. Is that the way I come across? I seriously don't know how to say what I think, meaning no ill will to anyone, and not say what I think. 

    I'm going to maybe send you a new car to make up for this slight. lol
    Slight me next! Slight me next!

    Gut Out!
    AmarantharAlBQuirky

    What, me worry?

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 22,098
    I want for the battle or the process of preparing for it (or both) to involve interesting gameplay decisions.  It shouldn't feel like just another iteration in a for loop that I have to slog through way too many times without any need to pay attention.

    There are many ways to offer interesting gameplay decisions, from action combat where you have to dodge, to turn-based combat where you have to counter what your adversary is doing, to combat that runs on its own after complex preparation to ensure that you only engage the enemy in battle under favorable circumstances (e.g., see the Europa Universalis games).  But what I do ought to matter, rather than just being a case of you win no matter what happens.
    AlBQuirky
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,190
    Quizzical said:
    I want for the battle or the process of preparing for it (or both) to involve interesting gameplay decisions.  It shouldn't feel like just another iteration in a for loop that I have to slog through way too many times without any need to pay attention.

    There are many ways to offer interesting gameplay decisions, from action combat where you have to dodge, to turn-based combat where you have to counter what your adversary is doing, to combat that runs on its own after complex preparation to ensure that you only engage the enemy in battle under favorable circumstances (e.g., see the Europa Universalis games).  But what I do ought to matter, rather than just being a case of you win no matter what happens.
    I like it when you have to make split decisions and react, and counter react. I've seen it in PvP but I don't recall having that in PvE.
    In UO's fast paced PvP, it was often a case of "do something, even if it's wrong." There were lots of moments in that for Mages in battle with another Mage, as you watched their Spell Casting Words and recognized what they were doing, and had to switch up. Cancel the spell you just started casting and cast something else. 
    For others, there were timing moments for drinking potions or using Bandages, putting on "buff" jewelry (used up charges as you wore them, per minute, and limited and couldn't be recharged). 

    I love that fast paced, "if you screw up you might die" thrill of battle. 
    AlBQuirky

    Once upon a time....

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 22,098
    Quizzical said:
    I want for the battle or the process of preparing for it (or both) to involve interesting gameplay decisions.  It shouldn't feel like just another iteration in a for loop that I have to slog through way too many times without any need to pay attention.

    There are many ways to offer interesting gameplay decisions, from action combat where you have to dodge, to turn-based combat where you have to counter what your adversary is doing, to combat that runs on its own after complex preparation to ensure that you only engage the enemy in battle under favorable circumstances (e.g., see the Europa Universalis games).  But what I do ought to matter, rather than just being a case of you win no matter what happens.
    I like it when you have to make split decisions and react, and counter react. I've seen it in PvP but I don't recall having that in PvE.
    In UO's fast paced PvP, it was often a case of "do something, even if it's wrong." There were lots of moments in that for Mages in battle with another Mage, as you watched their Spell Casting Words and recognized what they were doing, and had to switch up. Cancel the spell you just started casting and cast something else. 
    For others, there were timing moments for drinking potions or using Bandages, putting on "buff" jewelry (used up charges as you wore them, per minute, and limited and couldn't be recharged). 

    I love that fast paced, "if you screw up you might die" thrill of battle. 
    If you want fast-paced combat where you can easily die if you mess up, then you should try Spiral Knights or Kritika.

    Kritika bosses especially are very reactive fights.  If you try to just run up to a boss and hit it, the boss will probably hit you, and hard.  That's a problem if you die in about three hits.  Rather, for the most part, you have to watch the boss and figure out when it's safe to attack.  Boss attacks basically have an animation lock, where once the boss starts an attack, you know what it's doing for the next second or three.  So long as you can dodge the initial blow, for some attacks, that gives you a chance to sneak in a counterattack or two of your own.

    The details vary wildly from one boss to the next.  In some cases, you wait for an opportunity to knock a boss down, then hack away and take off 1/3 of its life, then have to play keep-away for the next 30 seconds waiting for another chance.  Against other bosses, you dodge an attack, land one or two of your own, dodge the next attack, land another attack or two, and so forth.  Against some of the nimbler bosses, you basically can't use some of your skills, as the skill takes long enough that the boss will blast you the skill ends.  Against other bosses, it may be ineffective to use a quicker, lighter attack, as you need to go with a heavier attack ("ultra break") that will knock the boss down so that it can't counterattack you.

    As a given class in Kritika, you'll be forced to use wildly different strategies for different bosses, at least if you ramp up the difficulty.  Furthermore, fighting against the same boss as different classes commonly calls for very different strategies.  It's not just "get out of the red area when it appears", though there is some of that.  Many boss attacks are fast enough that if you're standing right in front of the boss, you're going to get hit, as human reflexes simply aren't fast enough to wait for the attack and then dodge.  And getting hit like that is a big problem if you die in three hits.

    Trash mobs in Kritika aren't as good.  They hit hard, but attack slowly and infrequently, so most of them aren't much of a challenge.  The only real difficulty comes from there being so many trash mobs at once, and them hitting so hard if they do manage to hit you.  Many trash mobs will never do anything to you so long as you keep moving with only brief pauses to attack.

    Spiral Knights has much better trash mobs.  They generally telegraph what they're going to do, giving you time to get out of the way.  This isn't "get out of the red area" type of telegraphs, but rather, this motion means that this particular attack is coming.  The difficulty is that there isn't just one, but often several that you fight at once, so you can't just watch one and dodge when it's going to attack.

    Spiral Knights also uses a shield mechanic, so that if you're going to get hit, you put your shield up, and then the shield takes damage and you don't.  At least until the shield takes so much damage that it breaks, and then you take damage anyway.  Your shield recharges as time passes, though your main lifeline doesn't.  

    The bosses in Spiral Knights aren't very good, though.  The two that people seem to farm a lot, Royal Jelly and Vanaduke, are just plain bad fights.  They're the worst content in the entire game, so I find it baffling that so many players want to just farm those two bosses endlessly and ignore the rest of the game.

    In both Spiral Knights and Kritika, if you're good, you can clear most entire levels without taking damage.  The main exception in Spiral Knights is if a bunch of rocket turrets randomly spawn.  Devilites are also pretty hard to clear without getting hit at all.
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,190
    Quizzical said:
    Quizzical said:
    I want for the battle or the process of preparing for it (or both) to involve interesting gameplay decisions.  It shouldn't feel like just another iteration in a for loop that I have to slog through way too many times without any need to pay attention.

    There are many ways to offer interesting gameplay decisions, from action combat where you have to dodge, to turn-based combat where you have to counter what your adversary is doing, to combat that runs on its own after complex preparation to ensure that you only engage the enemy in battle under favorable circumstances (e.g., see the Europa Universalis games).  But what I do ought to matter, rather than just being a case of you win no matter what happens.
    I like it when you have to make split decisions and react, and counter react. I've seen it in PvP but I don't recall having that in PvE.
    In UO's fast paced PvP, it was often a case of "do something, even if it's wrong." There were lots of moments in that for Mages in battle with another Mage, as you watched their Spell Casting Words and recognized what they were doing, and had to switch up. Cancel the spell you just started casting and cast something else. 
    For others, there were timing moments for drinking potions or using Bandages, putting on "buff" jewelry (used up charges as you wore them, per minute, and limited and couldn't be recharged). 

    I love that fast paced, "if you screw up you might die" thrill of battle. 
    If you want fast-paced combat where you can easily die if you mess up, then you should try Spiral Knights or Kritika.

    Kritika bosses especially are very reactive fights.  If you try to just run up to a boss and hit it, the boss will probably hit you, and hard.  That's a problem if you die in about three hits.  Rather, for the most part, you have to watch the boss and figure out when it's safe to attack.  Boss attacks basically have an animation lock, where once the boss starts an attack, you know what it's doing for the next second or three.  So long as you can dodge the initial blow, for some attacks, that gives you a chance to sneak in a counterattack or two of your own.

    The details vary wildly from one boss to the next.  In some cases, you wait for an opportunity to knock a boss down, then hack away and take off 1/3 of its life, then have to play keep-away for the next 30 seconds waiting for another chance.  Against other bosses, you dodge an attack, land one or two of your own, dodge the next attack, land another attack or two, and so forth.  Against some of the nimbler bosses, you basically can't use some of your skills, as the skill takes long enough that the boss will blast you the skill ends.  Against other bosses, it may be ineffective to use a quicker, lighter attack, as you need to go with a heavier attack ("ultra break") that will knock the boss down so that it can't counterattack you.

    As a given class in Kritika, you'll be forced to use wildly different strategies for different bosses, at least if you ramp up the difficulty.  Furthermore, fighting against the same boss as different classes commonly calls for very different strategies.  It's not just "get out of the red area when it appears", though there is some of that.  Many boss attacks are fast enough that if you're standing right in front of the boss, you're going to get hit, as human reflexes simply aren't fast enough to wait for the attack and then dodge.  And getting hit like that is a big problem if you die in three hits.

    Trash mobs in Kritika aren't as good.  They hit hard, but attack slowly and infrequently, so most of them aren't much of a challenge.  The only real difficulty comes from there being so many trash mobs at once, and them hitting so hard if they do manage to hit you.  Many trash mobs will never do anything to you so long as you keep moving with only brief pauses to attack.

    Spiral Knights has much better trash mobs.  They generally telegraph what they're going to do, giving you time to get out of the way.  This isn't "get out of the red area" type of telegraphs, but rather, this motion means that this particular attack is coming.  The difficulty is that there isn't just one, but often several that you fight at once, so you can't just watch one and dodge when it's going to attack.

    Spiral Knights also uses a shield mechanic, so that if you're going to get hit, you put your shield up, and then the shield takes damage and you don't.  At least until the shield takes so much damage that it breaks, and then you take damage anyway.  Your shield recharges as time passes, though your main lifeline doesn't.  

    The bosses in Spiral Knights aren't very good, though.  The two that people seem to farm a lot, Royal Jelly and Vanaduke, are just plain bad fights.  They're the worst content in the entire game, so I find it baffling that so many players want to just farm those two bosses endlessly and ignore the rest of the game.

    In both Spiral Knights and Kritika, if you're good, you can clear most entire levels without taking damage.  The main exception in Spiral Knights is if a bunch of rocket turrets randomly spawn.  Devilites are also pretty hard to clear without getting hit at all.
    I love the idea of telegraphs. That all sounds pretty good. I'm sure some special attention to detail would be required for an MMORPG. 

    Question:
    How's the odge mechanic work, or the best that you've seen? 
    I was just thinking that using WASD, you can set the direction and hit the right Control key and your character could make a diving dodge for that special sort of effect. That would be the quick, save your sorry arse dodge, as opposed to just moving out of the path of incoming. 

    Once upon a time....

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 22,098
    I love the idea of telegraphs. That all sounds pretty good. I'm sure some special attention to detail would be required for an MMORPG. 

    Question:
    How's the odge mechanic work, or the best that you've seen? 
    I was just thinking that using WASD, you can set the direction and hit the right Control key and your character could make a diving dodge for that special sort of effect. That would be the quick, save your sorry arse dodge, as opposed to just moving out of the path of incoming. 
    Think of telegraphs as being like a baseball pitcher's windup.  When the pitcher is moving the ball back behind his head, you know that a pitch is coming, even if the ball will still be in his hand a while longer.  And it's not a red spot on the catcher to mark where it's coming; you have to watch the pitcher to see it.

    In both games, it's primarily "dodge" by getting out of the way.  If an attack is coming at where you're standing, and you've moved out of the way before you get there, you don't take damage.  It helps that you can move pretty fast--a lot faster than you run in most MMORPGs.

    Kritika also has a dash mechanic to help you get away faster.  Basically, you press a button and then dash extra fast in the direction that you were already moving.  It has a short cooldown of several seconds, so you save it for when you need it.

    In Spiral Knights, if you think you're going to get hit, you put your shield up.  It's an omnidirectional bubble, so you don't have to point it in the right direction.  The shield can absorb the damage, but shields can only take so much damage before they break and can't be used for a while.  The basic idea is that you run out of the way of most attacks, and then you can use your shield to block the remaining few.  You can't attack while your shield is up, so you don't just keep it up forever.

    Both Kritika and Spiral Knights are heavily instanced, not open world MMORPGs.  There are some shared areas with lots other players, but there isn't combat in those places.  Mob health scales with party size in Spiral Knights, up to a max of 4.  Kritika also allows you to form groups for instances.  The model is somewhat akin to Guild Wars 1, but without henchmen or heroes.
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,190
    Quizzical said:
    I love the idea of telegraphs. That all sounds pretty good. I'm sure some special attention to detail would be required for an MMORPG. 

    Question:
    How's the odge mechanic work, or the best that you've seen? 
    I was just thinking that using WASD, you can set the direction and hit the right Control key and your character could make a diving dodge for that special sort of effect. That would be the quick, save your sorry arse dodge, as opposed to just moving out of the path of incoming. 
    Think of telegraphs as being like a baseball pitcher's windup.  When the pitcher is moving the ball back behind his head, you know that a pitch is coming, even if the ball will still be in his hand a while longer.  And it's not a red spot on the catcher to mark where it's coming; you have to watch the pitcher to see it.

    In both games, it's primarily "dodge" by getting out of the way.  If an attack is coming at where you're standing, and you've moved out of the way before you get there, you don't take damage.  It helps that you can move pretty fast--a lot faster than you run in most MMORPGs.

    Kritika also has a dash mechanic to help you get away faster.  Basically, you press a button and then dash extra fast in the direction that you were already moving.  It has a short cooldown of several seconds, so you save it for when you need it.

    In Spiral Knights, if you think you're going to get hit, you put your shield up.  It's an omnidirectional bubble, so you don't have to point it in the right direction.  The shield can absorb the damage, but shields can only take so much damage before they break and can't be used for a while.  The basic idea is that you run out of the way of most attacks, and then you can use your shield to block the remaining few.  You can't attack while your shield is up, so you don't just keep it up forever.

    Both Kritika and Spiral Knights are heavily instanced, not open world MMORPGs.  There are some shared areas with lots other players, but there isn't combat in those places.  Mob health scales with party size in Spiral Knights, up to a max of 4.  Kritika also allows you to form groups for instances.  The model is somewhat akin to Guild Wars 1, but without henchmen or heroes.
    Thanks for the explanations. 
    Yes, I get that about telegraphs. I pictured a Dragon pulling it's head back as if breathing in, just before releasing it's Breath Attack in the direction ahead. Sort of quick, but noticeable if watching for it.
    I really like the idea I had, though not a new one, of diving out of the way. ;)

    Once upon a time....

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