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Most here don't know how to analyze anything

delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 5,942
edited December 1 in The Pub at MMORPG.COM

In order to do a comparison you need an equal playing field of both items:

-When something no longer exist and when it did, it was in it’s MOST BASIC FORM, how can this be compared to something newer in an age where the other comparison item can be refined with modern tools.

-both items need to be compared in "basic" form and/or "newer" form.

 

During First Generation times:

-Design ideas were in its infancy, no one was around to give ideas, nothing to compare or even steal from. Everything was simply a shot in the dark.

-Poor hardware, software and even less than 56K modems.  Windows 95 !

-Wide range of people with poor > good computers.  Good was still crap !

-Load with floppy disc and crud optical media programming, then expected to download patches to bring people together.  Transferring data was a nightmare for both sides. 

Yet people here want to compare and analyze something from 1999 to something from 2019

 

Last I'll leave you with this,  

Polls:  Where are they?  How can I vote?  Where are they?  Have you ever voted?  Who gets to vote?  What are the parameters?  Are they skewed?  Are they to benefit one side? ......This makes polls 100 % inaccurate.... Worthless other than with an agenda that REALLY WORKS. 

Because of the above a POLL CANT EXIST unless you ask the subjects to "visualize" a modern first generation complete with refinement.  We all know the major population can't visualize to make parameters equal.  

DibdabsGorweagentsi1511Aethaeryn

Comments

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 16,604
    edited December 1
    Well guess what.....

    You know by now my fave mmorpg....FFXI.

    So happens there has been ideas to learn from,copy,tweak,borrow what ever and a long time before these mmorpg's came out.

    You see FFXI was based off of FF3/5 a game 10 years prior to the release of FFXI.It utilized the multiclass system,had  amazing class designs and combat utilized choices on types of weapons and classes.
    I to this day still love playing FF3/5 and feel that was a great rpg design to take ideas from as did FFXI.

    Then of course it takes a great lead with a vision to think of ideas surrounding the class design and make those work in a group and have the mobs challenge those groups.

    FFXI however went one step further with depth,an area most mmorpg's do NOT do because they are designed to eliminate every step before the next,get that NEXT best gear.A design that takes you moves you sideways,gives you other options for content is a much better design than a linear design.

    Another VERY important factor also missed  to this day is immersion and keeping your old zones active.This is done by utilizing the multiclass/sub job system.This way players/groups need to keep coming back to old zones to level up their other classes so that their character can be more well rounded and have a lot more options.
    Keeping old zones active also allow new players to feel comfortable and have grouping options several years after release.Most all Wowish type designs are ghost towns except for the end game area and then of course instances that remove all players from the world,again a BAD DESIGN for a mmo.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 5,942
    edited December 1
    Wizardry said:
    Well guess what.....

    You know by now my fave mmorpg....FFXI.

    So happens there has been ideas to learn from,copy,tweak,borrow what ever and a long time before these mmorpg's came out.

    You see FFXI was based off of FF3/5 a game 10 years prior to the release of FFXI.It utilized the multiclass system,had  amazing class designs and combat utilized choices on types of weapons and classes.
    I to this day still love playing FF3/5 and feel that was a great rpg design to take ideas from as did FFXI.

    Then of course it takes a great lead with a vision to think of ideas surrounding the class design and make those work in a group and have the mobs challenge those groups.

    FFXI however went one step further with depth,an area most mmorpg's do NOT do because they are designed to eliminate every step before the next,get that NEXT best gear.A design that takes you moves you sideways,gives you other options for content is a much better design than a linear design.

    Another VERY important factor also missed  to this day is immersion and keeping your old zones active.This is done by utilizing the multiclass/sub job system.This way players/groups need to keep coming back to old zones to level up their other classes so that their character can be more well rounded and have a lot more options.
    Keeping old zones active also allow new players to feel comfortable and have grouping options several years after release.Most all Wowish type designs are ghost towns except for the end game area and then of course instances that remove all players from the world,again a BAD DESIGN for a mmo.
    Obviously You know FFXI better than I.  Made in 2002 it seems to me a game ahead of it's time. I came on board a year into World of Warcraft, after a year or so I was open to branch out to see what else is out their. 

    A guy at my job would tell me all about FF11 and I wanted to play but couldn't quite get it working for PC the way it ran and couldn't map the keys, I was newer to computers and spent just two hours and gave up, never to try again..... That's not to say it wasn't a great game, I just gave up early in trying. Not user friendly at all.

    I say it was ahead of its time, because I've seen a lot of Second Generation in this game too with my little understanding. 



    Is this considered a First gen game ?...... Even so, with all the great things you spoke of, ITS OLD AND DATED..... It wouldn't be a fair comparison to modern technology. 


    The advantage 16 year old (no, all 16 year olds) would start a game like this and say:
           "are you kidding me, this is ancient"
  • PalebanePalebane Member RarePosts: 3,784
    edited December 1
    You can compare old sports stats to new ones. Records get broken even though players play more games per season and with different rules.
    AlBQuirky

    Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.

  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Member EpicPosts: 2,768
    Ehh, ironic title from Delete. 

    You need to compare things allowing for nuances to influence the parameters. You try to account for the differences in ways that get to the heart of the matter. 

    KyleranTorvalAlBQuirky
    Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix
    You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations. 
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,491
    Ehh, ironic title from Delete. 

    You need to compare things allowing for nuances to influence the parameters. You try to account for the differences in ways that get to the heart of the matter. 

    Agreed, my Dad's 1973 Pontiac Lemans was hands down superior to the most modern sports car today.

    It had a bench seat .... a joy younger folks missed out on but there was nothing like drive in movies with one's girlfriend in a car with such.

    ;)

     
    AlBQuirky

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 6,149
    edited December 2
    Kyleran said:
    Ehh, ironic title from Delete. 

    You need to compare things allowing for nuances to influence the parameters. You try to account for the differences in ways that get to the heart of the matter. 

    Agreed, my Dad's 1973 Pontiac Lemans was hands down superior to the most modern sports car today.

    It had a bench seat .... a joy younger folks missed out on but there was nothing like drive in movies with one's girlfriend in a car with such.

    ;)

     
    My mom had one. It was awesome. I drove it in high school. 

    The 1977 version was a chase car in Smoky and the Bandit. :)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olktwqdOFgc

    Oh and P.S. I drove my Mom's car until I got my own -  A Pontiac Grand Ville. What a giant it was. You know who else drove one? Jimmy Hoffa.
    Post edited by Amathe on
    KyleranAlBQuirky

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • olepiolepi Member UncommonPosts: 1,295
    In 1980, I was a manager at Motorola and used to buy computer systems. We can do direct comparisons to my current home PC, which is over 6 years old.

    1980 disk: 300 mb for $15,000, size of a washing machine
    2019 disk: 3 Tb for $300, fits in your hand

    1980 memory: 1/2 Mb for $5,000
    2019 memory: 16gb for $200

    There is no comparison for the CPU and graphics, you wouldn't be able to buy anything in 1980 that is comparable.

    So just on disk and memory alone:

    - 3x300mb disks makes 1Gb, for $45,000. It would take NINE THOUSAND washing machine sized disks to equal my home PC's disk, and it would cost $135 MILLION in 1980 dollars.

     - 1/2 mb memory at $5,000 would require 32,000 memory cards to equal 16Gb, for a total of $160 MILLION in 1980 dollars.

    My home PC would cost at least $300 MILLION in 1980 dollars, and require a large building.

    Kyleranblueturtle13AlBQuirky

    ------------
    2019: 42 years on the Net.


  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 27,450
    Kyleran said:
    Ehh, ironic title from Delete. 

    You need to compare things allowing for nuances to influence the parameters. You try to account for the differences in ways that get to the heart of the matter. 

    Agreed, my Dad's 1973 Pontiac Lemans was hands down superior to the most modern sports car today.

    It had a bench seat .... a joy younger folks missed out on but there was nothing like drive in movies with one's girlfriend in a car with such.

    ;)

     
    My memory of a Bench seat was my mother taking a sharp turn and my brother and I sliding and hitting the side of the car ... because that was also the days where seat belts were optional!

    Good times ...
    KyleranAmatheAlBQuirky



  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 6,149
    And of course we all know how to analyze. You just make everything anal, no? That seems to be a lot of what we do here anyway. 
    KyleranAlBQuirky

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 5,942

    Ha....You just said anal :)….. we all know that has two meanings

    KyleranAlBQuirky
  • olepiolepi Member UncommonPosts: 1,295
    Another direct comparison is in semiconductor design. In 1980 at Motorola, we had just released the 68,000 chip, which had one layer of metal, used 5 micron gates, and had about 60,000 devices. It ran at 8mhz.

    Today, I work in the latest technologies. So we now design chips with billions of transistors, that run at 5+ Ghz, and have 15 layers of metal. Gate lengths are 7nm and getting smaller.

    We have literally put over a thousand times more devices, which run at about 1,000 times faster, on a chip with 15 layers of metal.
    AlBQuirky

    ------------
    2019: 42 years on the Net.


  • GorweGorwe Member EpicPosts: 6,307

    In order to do a comparison you need an equal playing field of both items:

    -When something no longer exist and when it did, it was in it’s MOST BASIC FORM, how can this be compared to something newer in an age where the other comparison item can be refined with modern tools.

    -both items need to be compared in "basic" form and/or "newer" form.

     

    During First Generation times:

    -Design ideas were in its infancy, no one was around to give ideas, nothing to compare or even steal from. Everything was simply a shot in the dark.

    -Poor hardware, software and even less than 56K modems.  Windows 95 !

    -Wide range of people with poor > good computers.  Good was still crap !

    -Load with floppy disc and crud optical media programming, then expected to download patches to bring people together.  Transferring data was a nightmare for both sides. 

    Yet people here want to compare and analyze something from 1999 to something from 2019

     

    Last I'll leave you with this,  

    Polls:  Where are they?  How can I vote?  Where are they?  Have you ever voted?  Who gets to vote?  What are the parameters?  Are they skewed?  Are they to benefit one side? ......This makes polls 100 % inaccurate.... Worthless other than with an agenda that REALLY WORKS. 

    Because of the above a POLL CANT EXIST unless you ask the subjects to "visualize" a modern first generation complete with refinement.  We all know the major population can't visualize to make parameters equal.  

    Look, most people don't really analyze, but state their emotions as is. One of the better analyses of the Fallen Order, for example, stated that it is "a perfect Star Wars experience ; an imperfect video game". Such a statement did plenty of correct steps: delineated IP from gameplay, weighed multiple units against their basic units etc. That's how you do it. There is a logic bomb here though and let me lure it out:

    "What is the basic unit of Star Wars? Hope? ESB? Revenge?"

    In short, don't worry about that. Draw your conclusions about everything and let others be others(unless they're obscene and / or nonsensical). And it's true. Being ble to truly analyze and compare isn't core human ability ; but that's more due to governments and others not wanting you to be able to cut through their bullshit. Banks especially I'd wager.
    AlBQuirky
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,491
    edited December 2

    During First Generation times:

    -Design ideas were in its infancy, no one was around to give ideas, nothing to compare or even steal from. Everything was simply a shot in the dark.

    You would be surprised how many ideas were "borrowed" by first gen MMORPG developers starting with Tolken, (A)D&D, NeverWinter Nights (1991), Meridian59 (1996), early MUDs (i.e. MUD1, 1987) and the like.

    In fact check out Dungeons / Islands of Kesmai, first created in 1980, eventually released as on CompuServe in 1985, AOL in 1996 as Legends of Kesmai it used many of the same D&D mechanics including questing which were later incorporated into games such as EQ and WOW.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Island_of_Kesmai

    Here's a fun link of the 9 oldest MMOs, the list might surprise you.

    http://www.oldest.org/entertainment/mmo-games/

    I consider Raph Koster as one of the best authorities on the origin (see what I did there?) of virtual worlds, online or otherwise and his web blog covers MUD history in great depth. 

    https://www.raphkoster.com/games/the-online-world-timeline/
    SovrathTorvalAlBQuirky

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,860
    edited December 2
    Kyleran said:

    During First Generation times:

    -Design ideas were in its infancy, no one was around to give ideas, nothing to compare or even steal from. Everything was simply a shot in the dark.

    You would be surprised how many ideas were "borrowed" by first gen MMORPG developers starting with Tolken, (A)D&D, NeverWinter Nights (1991), Meridian59 (1996), early MUDs (i.e. MUD1, 1987) and the like.

    In fact check out Dungeons / Islands of Kesmai, first created in 1980, eventually released as on CompuServe in 1985, AOL in 1996 as Legends of Kesmai it used many of the same D&D mechanics including questing which were later incorporated into games such as EQ and WOW.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Island_of_Kesmai

    Here's a fun link of the 9 oldest MMOs, the list might surprise you.

    http://www.oldest.org/entertainment/mmo-games/

    I consider Raph Koster as one of the best authorities on the origin (see what I did there?) of virtual worlds, online or otherwise and his web blog covers MUD history in great depth. 

    https://www.raphkoster.com/games/the-online-world-timeline/
    Lineage 1 always gets ripped off lol. It should have been on that list. It released the same year as Nexus did in the US and is arguably more successful than any of those other MMOs by every measurable metric. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lineage_(video_game)

    blueturtle13KyleranGdemamiAlBQuirky
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,491
    Torval said:
    Kyleran said:

    During First Generation times:

    -Design ideas were in its infancy, no one was around to give ideas, nothing to compare or even steal from. Everything was simply a shot in the dark.

    You would be surprised how many ideas were "borrowed" by first gen MMORPG developers starting with Tolken, (A)D&D, NeverWinter Nights (1991), Meridian59 (1996), early MUDs (i.e. MUD1, 1987) and the like.

    In fact check out Dungeons / Islands of Kesmai, first created in 1980, eventually released as on CompuServe in 1985, AOL in 1996 as Legends of Kesmai it used many of the same D&D mechanics including questing which were later incorporated into games such as EQ and WOW.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Island_of_Kesmai

    Here's a fun link of the 9 oldest MMOs, the list might surprise you.

    http://www.oldest.org/entertainment/mmo-games/

    I consider Raph Koster as one of the best authorities on the origin (see what I did there?) of virtual worlds, online or otherwise and his web blog covers MUD history in great depth. 

    https://www.raphkoster.com/games/the-online-world-timeline/
    Lineage 1 always gets ripped off lol. It should have been on that list. It released the same year as Nexus did in the US and is arguably more successful than any of those other MMOs by every measurable metric. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lineage_(video_game)

    While I agree, L1's success was largely confined to S Korea. IMO L2 was much more successful in introducing the IP elsewhere.
    AlBQuirky

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • agentsi1511agentsi1511 Member UncommonPosts: 38
    What the flying fuck is this dude ranting about? 

    He's complaining that people compare/analyze things of different generations, but then in the same breath says "hey, you can't do that". Is this dude legit fucking crazy or what?

    You can typically only compare/analyze things of specific genres, regardless of the time frame. Sports are an excellent example of this. The 100m in sprinting world record was 12.42 over 100 years ago, today, its 9.59. Same exact thing. If we "analyze" this, what is the difference between the two people?  It's a list a mile long. Health, food, exercise, genetics, physical dimensions, etc, etc.

    Back to the main topic. What you're fucking blabbing about, is 100% bullshit that doesn't need to be analyzed. It's not proper grammar to start, you repeat yourself multiple times. It's barely a coherent statement. It isn't clear what you're even trying to say. This MMO can't be compared to this other MMO, because of time? or CPU specs? Like what? lol, A Good game transcends time. Graphics are an afterthought for most folks.

    As one of the other posters mentioned, I also love FFXI, why? Because it forced social interactions. Hell, I still play EQ on EMU servers for the same reason. Great gameplay, decent graphics, amazing social structure. Most of these things ARE NOT found in modern MMOs. So if we're analyzing things, why did MMOs take a step back? Simple. The younger generation, less time, ADD, can't focus, etc, etc. The old MMO gameplay is far too hard/time-consuming for them to adapt to and those games are slowly dying out.

    PS. Fucking proofread your posts before you go on a rant where you're trying to insult people. Dipshit.

    Cryomatrix
  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Member EpicPosts: 2,768
    What the flying fuck is this dude ranting about? 

    He's complaining that people compare/analyze things of different generations, but then in the same breath says "hey, you can't do that". Is this dude legit fucking crazy or what?

    You can typically only compare/analyze things of specific genres, regardless of the time frame. Sports are an excellent example of this. The 100m in sprinting world record was 12.42 over 100 years ago, today, its 9.59. Same exact thing. If we "analyze" this, what is the difference between the two people?  It's a list a mile long. Health, food, exercise, genetics, physical dimensions, etc, etc.

    Back to the main topic. What you're fucking blabbing about, is 100% bullshit that doesn't need to be analyzed. It's not proper grammar to start, you repeat yourself multiple times. It's barely a coherent statement. It isn't clear what you're even trying to say. This MMO can't be compared to this other MMO, because of time? or CPU specs? Like what? lol, A Good game transcends time. Graphics are an afterthought for most folks.

    As one of the other posters mentioned, I also love FFXI, why? Because it forced social interactions. Hell, I still play EQ on EMU servers for the same reason. Great gameplay, decent graphics, amazing social structure. Most of these things ARE NOT found in modern MMOs. So if we're analyzing things, why did MMOs take a step back? Simple. The younger generation, less time, ADD, can't focus, etc, etc. The old MMO gameplay is far too hard/time-consuming for them to adapt to and those games are slowly dying out.

    PS. Fucking proofread your posts before you go on a rant where you're trying to insult people. Dipshit.

    Look at OP post history. 
    AlBQuirky
    Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix
    You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations. 
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,576
    History will repeat itself if forgotten. It will anyway, but that's life ;)

    Comparison is a basic, hard-wired aspect of humanity. We "compare" everything in our lives. "Keeping up with the Jones'" is not just some quaint saying, it is a truism.

    When we have an agenda, usually it's the comparisons that suffer :)
    Kyleran

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


    (And now Burger King has MEATLESS burgers!)

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